Home Ministering | An Interview with Steve Webber

0:00Hey, if you think leading saints is just a podcast, well, that's a big mistake. We are so much more than a podcast, we've established online a leading saints community. That's right. If you go to leadingsaints.org slash Zion, you'll be pushed towards a community online where the discussion is really happening. Sure, you're going to listen to this episode. You'll get some great tips and ideas and hear a thought-provoking discussion. But the conversation doesn't end there. We go over to the leading saints community and talk further there. You can make comments. You ask questions. And we'll probably do some follow-up live streams with maybe the same guest. I bet a lot is going on at the leading saints community. So check out the show notes for the link leadingsaints.org slash Zion and join the leading saints community. If you wanted further insight into a Come Follow Me lesson, you'd probably search in YouTube or get the We Believe app. Have church history questions? You'd reach out to the B.H. Roberts Foundation. But what if you wanted to learn to be a better leader?

1:00Well, I'm glad you asked. You'd come to leading saints. That's why we exist to help Latter-day Saints be better prepared to lead by being familiar with others leadership experiences, understand the latest leadership research, and finding a community to share ideas. That's why I'm glad you found the leading saints podcast. We hope you will dive into the archives and visit leadingsaints.org to find out what are the top most listened to episodes on the podcast. Welcome. You're going to love it. So in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, we have a long history of ministering or home teaching or block teaching or of the many other names that this ministering effort has had over the years, which has been phenomenal. It's a beautiful tradition, an institution within the institution of encouraging our members to connect with maybe individuals they don't know in their ward, and minister to them. Check up on them. As the doctrine covenants encourages us to do to pray with them in their home, right?

2:02And so I was excited. This is a long time coming, finally got connected and arranged in an interview with the Mr. Ministering himself I'd like to call him. Steve Weber wrote the book, Home Ministering, the process of perfecting the saints, and I wanted to get him in the studio and just talk about this effort of ministering where I know so many elders corn presidents, relief site presidents or wards in general struggle with their effort or motivating others to do this work. And so Steve gives a phenomenal perspective that we all should know and learn and obviously talks about the resources out there as he champions the effort of ministering. So share this with your elders corn president, your bishop, your relief site president. Let's jump into it. Here's my interview with Steve Weber, all about ministering. All right, Steve Weber, welcome to the leading saints podcast. Excited to be here. Yeah. This is a long time coming. I came across, I think it was around the time when the church officially moved from home

3:06teaching and ministering and your books started popping up places and I was like, I'm glad to see someone else's put some thoughts and ideas out there around church leadership and more specifically about ministering and so when did you write that book? So I wrote the first book back in 2015, kind of got the prompting to write it back in 2005, but you know, sometimes it takes us longer to get around to what we're supposed to be doing. Yeah, I only took a decade. And so in 2015, I finished the book and then if you'd like, I can explain a little bit behind the book because it kind of goes behind the scenes of the whole ministering process or the process of coming to ministering in the church. But in 2015, which is about three years before ministering came to be, I wrote a book called Shepherds of the flock elevating home and visiting teachers to home ministers. So I was kind of going out of the limb putting that in the title and the reason I did that is because a lot of the language in the book centered around deemphasizing the lesson

4:11and focusing more on taking care of the family, taking care of the people that we were assigned to in a better way than we'd had been doing before because we were so focused on that lesson, so focused on giving that first presidency message that we were kind of forgetting about the real responsibility, which was helping the family. So to protect myself a little bit, I called the priesthood department. I said, will you take a look at this thing so that I don't get a phone call from my stake president a couple of weeks and find out where you were, were you a bishop at this time or when I got the prompting to do it, I was a bishop. I started serving in 2004 to 2010 and so we had kind of implemented this idea of ministering in my ward in January of 2005. We implemented. I got up at the pulpit on the first Sunday after fast Sunday and kind of started with a New Year's resolution and challenged the ward to make some changes and I can talk about that in just a second, but you were like the ministering pilot without knowing

5:11you were the ministering pilot, you know? The spirit's been working on me for about 30 years. I've been put in different callings along the way that have been primarily focused on ministering. So the spirit's been kind of working through me for a long time trying to help me better understand it and I look back over the years and say, okay, that makes sense. But when I called the church and talked to the priesthood department, there was a great guy up there. I don't want to even drop his name. It's Jeff or he was working up there at the priesthood department and I said, every in a book, I want to kind of make sure that I'm working in the right direction and he said, so we'll send me the PDF. And so the very next day, I get a call and he said, will you come up and talk to us at church headquarters? Will you come up and meet with a few of us? And I said, is this a good meeting or a bad meeting? Am I in trouble? You're in trouble? No, no, no. Come on up. I said, well, have you had a chance to take a look at the book and he said, I've read it three times. Wow.

6:11I was shocked. I said, wow, okay. Well, that's great. And so I went up there and I met with these three guys and he said, are you willing to take a little advice? Will you take some suggestions? And I said, absolutely. I mean, that's what I'm here is to make sure that I'm in line with what the church wants to do. And he said, will you take the words always and never out of the book? And I said, absolutely. I said, I said, that makes sense. He goes, and this is probably important for your listeners to remember. He said, there's never an always in ministering. And that's, those are, I actually put that into the second book because it's so profound. Everybody's situation is different. Everybody's, I mean, your stuff is different than my stuff. And my stuff is different than the families that I minister to. And I always say, everybody's got stuff. And you can just plug in whatever word you want into there for stuff. But everybody, this is mortality. And we've all got challenges to keep us up at night and so anyways. When he said, there's never an always in ministering, I just, I felt that was very profound

7:13and very inspired. So. Yeah. And did you feel like I'm curious when you got that feedback? I mean, I think as we write books and I've written books the words, you're going and you don't realize you're using these. Absolutely. You're overstating things or, you know, but not because it should be overstated. But that's kind of, we talk in hyperbole, you know? And so did you, was that hard to remove those always? No, it was, I only had it in there a few times and, you know, and I had kind of alluded to that in the book that, you know, hey, there are times when a lesson is really important. That this family really needs to pick me up. It needs some inspiration and so a lesson, you know, in fact, then we were using the first presidency message as a default. But you know, you always go in there trying to personalize a lesson for the family, for the things that they're going through. And a lot of cases, a lesson is very important. In fact, Alma says that the, you know, the word of God is more motivating than the sword. And so he can get us off dead center in ways that anything else can't, just bearing testimony

8:16of gospel truths. But when people say you always have to give a lesson or you always have to do this, so you always have to do that, well, that's not the Lord's way because everybody's situation is different. Yeah, especially in an international church, right? And this is a, this is a principle that I've really tried to navigate, you know, creating this platform, leading saints and putting content out there is, I never want to put out like, this is the norm. This is how you should, everybody should do it, you know, when a reality is like, we're just sharing one person's experience and there's different nuances and cultural norms or the way geographic or whatever. And that's why sometimes I disagree with the guests I have on to some extent and sometimes I'm like, yeah, I really think they should always do that. But in reality, that's, and you can tell that in the handbook, they try, they, I'd be surprised if you can find those two words, right? They dialed back the handbook dramatically. They took a lot of the guardrails off of what we used to know as home teaching, even though much of what we were doing in home teaching is still the norm.

9:18I mean, you say the norm, there is a norm. There is kind of a framework for what we should be doing. But then once we get in there, everything is based on what the needs of the family are. And when you look back at the talks that they've given since the introduction and ministering, you can still see that norm coming through where President Holland was saying, a visit is still important, but there are situations where you might not be able to make a visit where there's distance involved or you have three active priesthood holders and you have 500 natural members, clearly you're not going to be able to make a visit every home every month and safety. We can talk a little bit about that, but that's a serious issue in a lot of cases where you, you might have a sister that has, has an abusive relationship and it would just cause grief between her and her husband if two men came in and home taught her or two women came in and had a visit with her. I mean, it may not be a safety issue for you, but it may be for the sister that has to

10:19deal with the aftermath. So we have to make adjustments or needed and that's what President Holland was trying to talk about in his talk. But the second thing that they said when I was up there, which is important and again, I think it goes to understanding better what was going on behind the scenes before ministering was unveiled. And again, remember this is 2015, this is in the summer of 2015, Jeff goes, where did you get the word ministering? And I said, well, we were talking about that. We were using that terminology when I was bishop because again, I wanted to deemphasize less and less and less and talk about service, service, service. And he, I said, why do you have it? Sounds like you've got a problem with that word. I can take that out if you want me to, but I prefer not to. Yeah. And he said, no, I'm okay with it. I said, it sounds like you've got a problem with that. And he said, no, he said, I'll let you in on something that's been going on. And so he explained that they had been in committee for 10 years.

11:20So I got prompted to write this book in 2005, 2005 is when they started the committee to try to determine how to change home and visiting teaching, how to refer back to its original purpose, which was to bear one another's burdens and to nourish with the good word of God and do the things that we were supposed to be doing all along, but we'd kind of shift it. Over-emphasize the lesson and de-emphasize service. And he said, we've been in committee for 10 years trying to figure out how to change this. And he said, ironically, three weeks ago before you came in here, we disbanded the committee. We had so many personalities and so many different ideas that we couldn't come to consensus on what we should be doing, how we should be changing home and visiting teaching. So we disbanded the committee. And he said, he goes, it's just kind of funny that you come in here with a book and start talking about ministry and I said, so you just don't want me to beat you to the punch and he said, no, he goes, actually, this will create a fire and help us get this rolling.

12:22He said, no, I want you to get out there ahead of us and get this book out there. Now that was the original version of the book. And Deseret book, when I took it to them to publish it, they said, no, we will not publish a book on home teaching. And they said it is not marketable. And they said, you can't sell a book on home and visiting teaching. And I said, well, what if I go publish it myself? And they said, nope, we're not even going to give you a shelf space. The shelf space is too valuable. You'll never sell a book on home teaching. So I had to go off and find, I did it through Amazon and published myself. And then the funny thing is, once you got out there, I was selling books by the case all over the world, the stakes and awards that were flailing for information. I mean, they just were dying on the vine with regard to home and visiting teaching. You know, somebody would buy the book and they'd hand it to their bishop and their bishop would buy 10 books and then hand one to a stake president, the stake president would call and get a case of books. And it just was, I was selling them by the case.

13:24And it was fun to watch the excitement happen. Now, when I say sell them by the case, I don't make any money on this book. I priced it so low. And this is another reason that Deseret book didn't want it. I priced it so low there was no margin in there for profit. I'm just trying to get the word out. My goal is not to make money on this thing. My goal is to help energize people about this. It had the success that we did in our award. Our award was just doing so well within every aspect of what we were doing and it all came back to ministering. It all came back to what we were doing in the homes of the families and our sacrament meaning attendance went up. And our members within, our endowed members with temple recommends numbers went up and our attendance in the second and third hours went up. And I see discussions on your board about how do we motivate people to come to second hour? Well, we ministered. I mean, that's, we get these people excited about church and coming back and it's just, it's been a great experience.

14:25So. So take me back to those first few years of Bishop Weber's time of like the promptings and the things you were trying and what inspiration game and how did it start that you're trying to kind of trying to refocus or reframe home teaching back then. So it kind of started even before then. I was called as an elders court president in Provo and before I was called the general authority came through and gave an apostolic blessing to the leadership in the stake and promised them if they would do their home teaching interviews every month, they would see their home teaching increase. And when I say increase, we were all in about the 40% range down in Provo back in the late 80s and which sounds above average at the time I want to prove it was, you know, we were right there at BYU. We should be doing a little bit better and so anyways, we were in the 40% range and he said, I promise you that if you will do your home teaching interviews just to the elders court presidents, your home teaching will go up in the 80s and stay there as long as you

15:27keep doing that. And so that was before I was called, but as soon as two months later, I was called in the member of the stake presidency said, well, you do this and I said, absolutely. And a couple months later, we had our first elders court training and, you know, this is back in the days when you had these reports and it showed everybody and how they were doing against the other words in the stake. And we were at 85% and the rest of the words were in the 40s. And the member of the stake presidency said, what are you guys doing in that ward? You told me to do. I'm doing our home teaching interviews and he goes, oh, I forgot. He goes, yes, you guys all the rest of you guys do it. So I carried that forward into my next ward and I was the high priest group leader there. We did that and we saw a lot of success, the same kind of success. But when I became bishop that first January, that second Sunday after the first Sunday after fast Sunday, I got up and I basically asked the ward to do something that we'd never really done before, kind of a New Year's resolution for the ward.

16:28And I said, I want you guys to quit asking the question, what can I do for you this month? I don't want you to go into anybody's home and ask, what can I do for you this month? I want you to change everything. And I said, I want everybody in the ward, I'm saying this from the pulpit, I want everybody in the ward the next week or two to go into the homes of the people that you home and visit teach and ask this question, what can I be praying for you this month? What can I be praying for is a different question than what can I be doing for you? Because when you ask what can I be doing for you, everybody says nothing, I'm good. But when you ask what can I be praying for, what are you praying for at night, Kurt? What are you praying for right now that I can add my prayers to? And I asked them to do that to every single member of that family that they minister to. And so, ask mom and dad and the kids and all of a sudden you've got a list of things to be praying for. And I said, and now I want to ask everybody in this, in the congregation to expect that

17:30question. So I want you to get an answer ready. So when these guys come and ask, what can I be praying for, you're ready, you're ready with an answer. So they did two things. Number one, it got everybody motivated to go do it. And it also encouraged people who weren't letting their ministry and brothers or home and visiting teachers at that time into their homes that would always say, no, we're good, you don't need to come visit us. Now they were encouraged to open up their doors and let somebody come and visit them. Wherever there's a giver, there has to be a receiver. You have to have somebody that's willing to let you in if you're going to be able to do this ministry. And within a couple of months, our sacri-meaning attendance went to, from 60% to 85%, and just all the numbers just started jacking up. And that's just because people started feeling noticed and people started feeling loved. So when somebody came back to church, somebody was waiting for them there to welcome them. And it was less of a, an ordeal, less of a big deal for somebody to come back to church

18:33and participate. It's just a great experience. But that changed everything, that one question. And if the bishops out there or state presidents want to jumpstart ministry in their ward, all they have to do is encourage their families, their home and visiting teachers, which are ministering brothers and ministering sisters now, to ask that one question. If we start there, it'll change everything. And I had a guy come up, I think I told you this already, had a guy come up to me right after I made that announcement in church. And sheepishly, he said, I've never even done that for my own family. He goes, I'm embarrassed to say I've never even asked my own kids what I should be praying for today for them. And it really, it made everybody's prayers last longer when I tried that before I invited everybody else to try that. I tried that myself. And the spirit immediately said, absolutely, I'll help you bless that person. But you're going to help me help them in this way. And when I asked about the second person, the same thing happened.

19:35I realized really quickly that I needed to have a piece of paper and a pencil with me when I was praying because the Lord was giving me an action list of things that I needed to do. And all of a sudden, there was lots of things that I could do to serve that family. That's awesome. That's awesome. It was a great experience. I love just this model. They can be applied across the board. And it's just an example of great leadership of, we sometimes want people to do something. You know, an action, whether it's, you know, visit a home or go to the temple or even stand and bear a testimony during a, you know, a fast and testimony meeting. And we kind of just throw the expectation out there. But to give them like something to go off of saying like, okay, maybe you are willing to go visit, but it feels awkward or whatever. But here's a question you can ask. So just ask this question. And suddenly it empowers people with the tactic, you know, okay, I can go over that person's house and, you know, we'll shoot the breeze for a minute and then I'll ask the question. And then, you know, it's a simple way to just empower people to do the things that they want to do.

20:36They just maybe don't know how to do it. I think that that's a real issue right now in the church, you know, there's a lot of people these days that want this relationship to be organic. They want it to be a natural thing and they, it's hard for them to overcome the awkwardness of that first visit when they're going into the home of somebody they've never met before or they really don't know that well. I've heard people say we really should be assigned to people that we're friendly with that we know and it'd be so much easier. But the problem is that you have certain gifts and talents that the Lord knows you have and the family across the street might not necessarily need that specific gift or talent, but that family two blocks away or, in many cases, two miles away or, or much farther, they need exactly what Kirk Frankham is already pre-built with. They're pre-packaged with these gifts and these talents and the Lord has done that. The Lord has pre-packaged you to help that person that's three miles away from you and

21:41help them through this crisis that you don't know about and that your bishop might not even know about, but the Lord knows about and he knows who you are and he'll, if our elders' court presidents are perfectly considering these assignments and our relief society presidents are prayerfully considering these assignments, miracles can happen and problems can be helped and fixed so easily because the Lord has already pre-packaged these ministering brothers and sisters with exactly what they need to serve these people that are assigned to. So it's powerful, it's powerful and we kind of, I mean, there's, you know, when I think about taking a system and dialing in the system to be very highly functional, sometimes we can skip over some of these more spiritual connections because we're hyper focused on just making it highly efficient, right? Right. Sometimes when we pause and really consider some of these things, you may find those miracles buried there that would have never come to the surface without being thoughtful and pondering

22:44over some of these assignments and things. Exactly. Yeah. Tyler, you mentioned this question, any other like tactic or way that someone can feel more comfortable ministering to somebody or even just visiting somebody that you'd recommend? That's a great question. In fact, let me tell you a quick story that's not going to make me look very good. Okay. Most of my bad stories relate to me. So anyways, I got active about three months before I went on my mission. My bishop challenged me as an inactive 18-year-old to get my life in order and go on a mission. And so I said, no, as I laughed at him and said, no, I'm not going to go on a mission. And then I had a very powerful alma-like experience and I knew I needed to go on a mission. Before I knew that the gospel was true, before I'd read the book of Mormon, I needed to go on a mission. So I was, when I got out there, I had a little bit of a chip on my shoulder. I still wasn't Mr. Compliant. And I was still struggling with rules and compliance and all that.

23:45So the third mission companion I had told the mission to President, this guy needs an attitude adjustment. And the attitude adjustment was an elder down in Altea, Spain. And I got down there and I told him years later, I didn't like the way you walked, the way you talked, or the way you chewed his food. I didn't like it. I had some of those companions. And so about a week into this, the mission president sent the assistance down to see if we'd killed each other yet. And so the assistant that came down and took me out on a split, his name's Kevin Domen. And he's the brother of Brandon Domen, he's the older brother. He was Mr. Happy and such a, I mean, everything about this guy was just sunshine and roses. He always saw the positive and everything. And here I am looking at all the negative and everything. And we went on a split and I said, get me out of here. I'm going home. If you don't, you know, make a change and he said, ah, elder, you're not going anywhere.

24:47And he said, hey, do this. He said, I promise you, you're going to love this guy. And by the end of the month, if you would just do this one thing, he said, if you'll just go in and go back to the apartment and do something nice for him every single day. Just shine his shoes, make him breakfast, take out the trash for him, make his bed, do something nice for him every day. He said, and pray for him every day. That's kind of where I got this pray every day for your ministry and families because if you'll just do something nice for him every day, then I promise you by the end of the month, you're going to love this guy. You're not going to want to be moved. And I said, there's no way this is going to happen, but I will do what you've asked me to do. And by the end of the month, and I'm going to get Terry, I talked about this. By the end of the month, we were best friends. And I didn't want to be separated. I didn't want to be transferred. We got transferred, unfortunately. But to this day, 40 years later, I'm still really, really good friends with this guy. And all it started with was just doing something nice for him every day.

25:48So I'm going to say this, and this is what I came away from that month and for the rest of my life, it changed my life, that if you can learn how to serve like Jesus serves, if you serve like Jesus, you're going to love like Jesus. And if you love like Jesus, you're going to become like Jesus. It's that simple. The purpose of home teaching, visiting teaching, word teaching, block teaching, and now ministering is the exact same thing as it's always been. It's been to help you become like the Savior. And President Benson back in 1987 gave a talk called it to the home teachers of the church. This applies to visiting teachers. This applies to ministering brothers and ministering sisters, but he said that if this is done properly, if we do this the way it was intended to be done, that it can spiritually renew the church and exalt its individual members and families. Now, how does ministering exalt families, exalt individuals?

26:52How can it spiritually renew us? I am a different person because I learned how to serve through hate and because I serve through that. If I can love somebody, I actually couldn't stand. How can a ministering brother or sister not start loving somebody that they're praying for every day? Start there, start with the prayer every day, and then have it work into whatever else the Lord's telling you to do. If we look at this as a way for us to become like the Savior and then on the flip side, if people will recognize that they can develop the Christlike attribute of humility by letting people come into their homes and sharing the things that are struggling with, boy, you develop that Christlike attribute of humility and the Christlike attribute of charity through ministering, you guys are halfway home. I mean, what's keeping a saddest slice to keep when we develop these Christlike attributes? Yeah. Ministries can exalt its individual members and families because we're serving one another,

27:55we're becoming like Christ and we are, we're moving saints from third Nephi saints to fourth Nephi saints by becoming one, by becoming a little Zion in our ward. And when everybody is looking out for everybody and no one's following the cracks because everybody is magnifying their little assignment that all of a sudden we've got an incredible experience happening. Yeah. Is there anything else that comes of mind as far as that on that receiving of the ministering brothers or sisters? I mean, it's kind of one of those things, you know, I remember even as now as an elders court president or as a bishop before, just sort of sort of being like, would you let people serve you like, come on, like just do it, like, and so you kind of maybe it can be too tyrannical on that point, like just, you know, you just got to let them receive, you know, let them serve you. Is there anything else that comes of mind with how to, you know, encourage people to receive the ministering brothers and sisters? Yes. I'm going to tell you a couple of other stories that are family related.

28:56My dad was an active from the age of 18 to 60, age 78. He didn't want anybody to come over, he didn't want any help, he didn't want anything. He was always a member of the church, he never took his name off the records, but he didn't want any contact with the church. And yet he had a very resilient and very determined ministering brother back in the day who kept showing up and just kept, you know, knock on the door every once in a while and saying, hey, I'm here for you. If you need anything, here's a little disc or here's a little bat or here's a thought. And one day my stepmother who wasn't a member of the church at that time had just been diagnosed with cancer. And she opened up the door and he said, I'm your home teacher, you just wanted to, you know, say hi and see if there's anything that we could be doing for you this month. And she started crying and she said, I've just been diagnosed with cancer. And my stepson gives blessings, do you give blessings?

29:57She didn't know anything about the church and he said, yes. And she goes, will you come back tonight when my husband's here? And though he didn't let anybody in for 60 years, when he needed somebody, he let him in. And I don't know whether that says more about the determination and the love that this home teacher had for them or whether they finally had a need and finally opened up. I wouldn't recommend to anybody that they let it go that long because the Lord always has a way of humbliness and getting us to the point where we're open to His help. If that makes any sense at all, eventually the Lord's going to humble us enough to the point where we're going to need His help. And thank goodness there was somebody there that was ready to help them when they needed it. But I have assisted the same sort of thing happen. She would never let her home teacher in. And she knows, I tell the story all the time, so she's okay with the story. But the guy was just the most wonderful guy and he showed up every single month.

30:59He never let him in, but it was always on the porch. He got to know her kids or kids birthdays. He'd always bring something over for each one of them. And he knew more about their kids probably than I knew about her kids because he was showing up every month. But then she was diagnosed with cancer and she reached out to me and said, what do I do? And I said, well, why don't we call your bishop and get him over there to give you a blessing? And she goes, how about the guy that used to home teach me that's moved away? She goes, can you track him down? I said, probably. So I called her bishop and we tracked this guy down who'd moved out of the ward. And he came back. I don't know how far he came back, but I know he moved miles and miles away, but he came back and gave her a blessing with the bishop. And she had a miraculous recovery and his cancer free. And all because again, she felt the love of this diligent, persistent, determined, ministering brother. And she was humble enough to ask for help when she needed it.

32:02And he was there for it. And Kimball once said, I have no more right to inspiration. And I have no more authority than the home teachers that are assigned to that ward. That family, I should say. He said, the home teachers have more the same authority and more right to inspiration than I do for their assigned families. And so when we realize that is people who are receiving the visit, all of a sudden we're going to realize, boy, those people are really important in our lives. And like I said, knowing that the Lord's pre-packaged them to be your ministering brother and ministering sister makes it even more, I don't know, motivating to invite them into your life and let them help pray for you. Put yourself on their little prayer roll. Am I making any sense? Or am I just rambling? Yeah. No, that's great. I love the stories and the principles that come out of it. This is fantastic. I want to ask, since the change from home teaching, visiting teaching to ministering, these

33:06are tough cultural shifts to create in an international church and my heart just aches for art. The core of the 12, the general authorities are trying to implement this and adjust with a growing church and international church. And so they can make the shift into ministering and suddenly think, oh, this is totally different or the higher, the whole of your way, you know, sometimes then where it's maybe new excuses come up or more reasons to not connect with people, what have you seen just in that change over the last few years and where we're at now that would be worth mentioning to help us kind of re-engage and reconnect with what the core desire was in this shift in the program. It's hard for people to grasp this, but ministering is home teaching and visiting teaching in a higher and a whole of your way. And it's as simple as that. We're trying to reinvent the wheel. We're trying to do something different. But if we go back to Dr. N. Covenant's 20, it's all spelled out there for us. And if you think about it, Dr. N. Covenant's 20 was revealed before the church was organized.

34:10The Lord laid out his plan for this type of ministering back in 1829. And we've just keep sliding away. And you know, back in 1963 when they established, when they went from word teaching to home teaching, our president Romney was talking about how we had gotten away from this idea of being a guardian in the home. And then Harold B. Lee in 1973 said, we've gotten away from being this guardian in home. In fact, do you mind me reading? Yeah, please. So if this is a quote from Harold B. Lee in 1972, talking about the change that they implemented for more teaching to home teaching, they changed the branding, let's say, they changed the branding for more teaching to home teaching because we've gotten into this idea of just it being a visit. And this is what he said once a month visit, right, once a month visit, but guess what, it's still supposed to be once a month. And if it all possible, it's still supposed to be once a month. But we don't need to push on that, but that's what it's still, in fact, there's a great

35:17quote. Well, I'll just, I'll give this quote and I'll give another quote. Okay. This is a quote from Harold B. Lee, maybe the home teacher should be charged more clearly to describe his mission to watch over and to strengthen to see that members do their duty. They think themselves as teachers of the gospel message only. Maybe we ought to be calling them home guardians or sentinels and to report their stewardship to the fathers of the ward. We must do something to change the emphasis from teaching to guardians to watching over the church kind of concept until we get that into our minds. We are not going to do the kind of home teaching that is going to get results. So that's why they changed it from ward teaching to home teaching was to get this ministering kind of result. About every 20 years, we get the same message in 1987, President Benson did the same thing and he gave that talk to the home teachers of the church and reiterated what we should be doing. We should be more ministering. We go into the homes in 2018, President Nelson, the same sort of thing.

36:22But they started trying to do this back in 2005, which again is 20 years from President Benson's talk. But for 10 years, this committee that had been called by the leaders of the church to try to figure out how to get us back to the original mission of what we should be doing and serving one another and blessing one another and helping one another. They gave up because here you've got all these people with all these different opinions about what to do, but what the Lord wants is what matters the most. And so how often do you go into your home? How often do you make contact? How often do you do all these things for your people? Well, that's between you and the Lord. Now I think they've taken the guardrails off to give us a higher and holier version of this, to help us act higher and holier, to give us a higher law kind of thing. Are we ready to take the training wheels off of word teaching and home teaching and power ourselves to where we should be personally and how we should bless the lives of others?

37:26I would challenge everybody to get on our knees every night and ask, how can I be doing a better job with my ministry and let the spirit guide us, rather than Steve Weber or Kurt Frankham or anybody else tell us how to minister to the families that we are supposed. Let's ask them, first of all, what can I be praying for? And then secondly, listen to Heavenly Father when we ask, how can I be a better ministering brother tomorrow or how can I be a better ministering sister tomorrow? I promise you, those are prayers he answers immediately. And if we will just stop, listen, that answer will come immediately. In fact, when somebody asked me every time somebody would ask me as a bishop, how do I receive revelation? I've never heard the spirit tell me what to do. I'd always say, tonight, get down on your knees and ask, what can I do better tomorrow? And I promise you will receive revelation today. It's promise.

38:27And so when you ask Heavenly Father, how can I better serve this family that I am assigned to? What can I do better tomorrow? He will answer that prayer and tell us. Now if you ask, should I be doing more or should I be doing less? I already know the answer to that question. It's probably we can be doing more. We could probably be doing a better job. And so present Holland, I always say present Holland because number one, he was present to be what you and I was down there. But then he ended his term as president. But when he was elder Holland and he rolled out home ministering or ministering, he said we still need to visit the home. It's still the priority. But there are these other extenuating circumstances that might make it difficult. But that's the standard we still want to get into the home. And we're told in Doctrine and Covenant section 20, visit the house of each member. Now the reason why we should be in the house is because that's the most personal space and that's where we can get on our knees and that's where we can leave blessings on

39:28these people's homes and leave and give them blessings. That's the most personal place to be really in touch. And the safest place for them in most cases to open up and to share their struggles and their challenges. Yeah. That's really powerful. I appreciate you sharing those quotes and that perspective. This is maybe more Utah centric or Idaho, Utah, Arizona centric question. But I've had individuals bring this up to me as they move from out of state, the old school mission field to Utah. And it was a good example. This was a few years ago, my mom kind of had a cancer scare in a fur test. They discovered some cancer and likely it was really easily treated. But this is sort of the moment in the Leahona, it's the perfect story of how ministering sisters or ministering brothers show up and are service there. And my mom was sort of hesitant to let them know about this because there really wasn't

40:28a lot for them to do. Because my brother lives five minutes away, my other brother's 10 minutes away, my sister's 15 minutes away, I'm 30 minutes away. And so in Utah, oftentimes you get such, there's a lot of family connections in Utah. At the end of the day, there's just not a lot for the ministering brother or sister to do. And I remember there's a moment where they did find out about this moment, this medical scare that she was going through. And they're kind of like, well, I mean, you didn't even call. And so sometimes it's tricky in Utah or in these more saturated areas where there's a lot of family support. Like, how do you respond to that or thoughts there around that? Well, no, we're in the same situation. We've got a lot of family around here that we could reach out to. But I've found, and I've had an unusual situation because I've had a great ministering brother over the years that has been coming to our home for a long, long time. In fact, I don't think he ever knocks anymore. He just comes on in and he's just part of the family. And I would actually feel more comfortable calling him at three o'clock in the morning

41:30than anybody else because he's inserted himself into our home and into our family in a way that I always say he knows me well and loves me still. He knows everything about me and still loves me. And he knows our challenges. He knows our struggles and things I don't even share with my family that I share with him because I know he's authorized to help me and he's authorized to know how to help. I would really, again, it comes down to, well, the only thing I could say is it's a two-part system. We're going to rely on those families or we're going to rely on our ministering brothers and ministering sisters if they're showing up. And I always say, just show up and show some love. You can't go wrong if you just show up and show some love. We try to, and you said it a couple of times today, we try to make things happen or we try to do things a certain way that we think we're supposed to do them. If you want to be authentic, just show up and let them know. I love you. I'm praying for you. How can I be praying for you better?

42:31What sorts of things can I be praying for? And when they offer that help that way and it's sincere, I think we're a lot more inclined and inclined to ask for their help. I think I butchered what I was trying to say there. I think I butchered what I wanted to say. No, I think it came across. And this brother that has been, and now he's been assigned to other people since he hasn't been our assigned ministering brother for two years. But our ministering brothers haven't shown up in two years. And so he's the guy still go to, he's still my go to guy and will be for a long, long time. My wife ministers to a younger woman that's average, the woman could be her daughter. And you know, this woman calls my wife all the time for help because my wife's kind of a fill in grandma for her. And it's just because my wife has been there for her over and over and over again that this woman feels completely comfortable calling her for help and assistance where her mother's passed away and my wife is kind of her default mom and default grandma for

43:34her kids. And so it's been a need experience to watch these relationships develop when we put ourselves in those places. Yeah. That's really great advice where it's not that you need a task, you know, you have to help, let me help you when you're sick or have a medical scare because I'm your ministering brother or sister. But it's more of like just knowing that the presence is there. My mind as you were saying that went to an interview I did years ago, many people probably remember the, I think it was in the elder Holland when he talked about home teaching before they made the change. That was still talk to the emissaries of the saints. Yes. The emissaries of the church. That's what it was. So we talked about a given example of a home teaching situation where I think there's in Vegas area, tragically a father backed over his son in a truck and the son died, he's nine years old. And this home teacher really showed up in a special way to minister to him. And I actually reached out and I interviewed that father who was interesting as he told his story.

44:35And I'm really trying to dig into like what were the components here that we could maybe learn from this experience. And he said oftentimes when something so tragic happens to a family or it's a medical scare or it's even something minor where we kind of think, you know what, they got family, they're good or you know, I didn't want to bother them. They're going through so much they don't need a visitor just showing up and he said it was remarkable the strength that came from just people showing up and just pushing through those feelings of we'll let them process this and check in later. But it was those who just showed up and sat in their living room and just talked to them for a few minutes that got them through that next hour, you know, to that thing. And so just sort of being like that presence, right? Of course they've got family, but knowing that like so many other people showed up in my neighborhood, my ward and that meant something and it really sanctifies us on a different level. You know, when you bring that up, I think of Joe, but his three buddies that showed up are his buddies that showed up for three days and didn't say anything.

45:37They just were there with him. They didn't say they didn't talk. They just were there with him. And I think sometimes morning with those and that mourn is very challenging for people. It is for me to know what to say in those types of situations when somebody's really struggling and we want to let them process before we go in there, but sometimes people just need somebody to hold their hand and just let them know that we love them no matter what we're here for them. We don't have to try to fix it because sometimes you can't fix some of these things, but you can be with them. And when you think back in Mosaic where it says to be with and strengthen them, to bear one another's burdens to mourn with those that mourn, those aren't easy things to do. Those are difficult things to do and we just have to plow through the awkwardness until it's not awkward anymore. We just need to, it's hard sometimes to turn a visit into something organic until we've done it over and over and over and over again. It's just not going to be natural until we've plowed through that awkwardness.

46:38Yeah. Any thoughts or tips or perspectives kind of mine? I'm going to flip the script a little bit here as far as, you know, we've talked about it. Maybe Utah-centered dynamics were family so close, but what about out there in Nebraska and Maine and Spain, wherever it is where maybe it's a little bit different of a dynamic because people are spread out. You drive two hours to church and, you know, there's a lot of those dynamics that make it more difficult. Any tips or thoughts, perspectives? Well, I'll share another story and this again is a familial one. My wife, her family used to spend the summer up at a cabin. They lived in near San Jose and they had a cabin up in the Sierra's and their home teacher would fly up there. Of course, this isn't going to happen every time, but he would fly up there because they would be gone for three months and he has a little pilot's license and he'd fly up there to see him. That's devotion. That's dedication and that's also somebody who has access to a plane, but in most cases that doesn't happen. But, you know, when you've got, you know, and I use this example all the time, let's say

47:41that somebody lives out on a remote island in the Pacific and they're out in the Philippines and there's one member out on this island. How do you get to him? How do you minister to him? How do you let him know he's cared for and he's part of the ward? That's when those examples that Elder Holland's given us come into play where we have all the technology in the world now to keep in contact with people through text or phone call or for video chats or whatever. There's a lot of things that we can do when we're miles and miles away from somebody. But as often as possible, we should make an effort to get together with them and to, you know, as in sales, we say needs to needs and knows to knows, you know, to get together with them and talk to them because we can plow through a lot of barriers when we're face-to-face talking to somebody that we can't in a text or a phone call or a video chat like this. But those are difficult situations and again, that's why we have changed the name of this from home teaching because home isn't the only place that it can happen.

48:44And teaching isn't really the primary purpose of it anymore. But if we do our best, and that's again another thing that President Holland said in his talk, just do your best. And President Hinckley used to always say, no, don't do your best, do your very best. And if we do our very best in these situations, people will know of our sincerity and that relationship will grow like it's supposed to, whether you and I are talking face-to-face or we're doing a video chat. The more consistent that we can be, and it's not just a once a month type of contact, then again, that relationship will grow and grow until it is the relationship that people go to to help with their problems. Now one thing I want to say, don't forget to make contact with your family's at church. Somebody in one of your chats on your Zion's lab said that he feels lonely. And this is a guy in church leadership that says that nobody sits by him and his family when they go to parties at the ward.

49:45Nobody sits with them at church leadership. He's in church leadership and nobody sits with them at church leadership. And he's lonely and he doesn't make friends easily. And he said, this is a challenge for me. And nobody should feel lonely in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The Lord, His heart is breaking for anybody that says, I don't have any friends at church. And so we, as their ministering brothers and ministering sisters, if nobody else goes up and says hi to them, we should be going up and putting our arms around them, shaking their hand or letting them know we see them at church. And this may be the only, especially in these remote areas, we may be the only church contact that they have because they aren't surrounded by neighbors and friends or even family who are members of the church. They may be the only member of their family that's a member of the church. We have to let people know that we love them and we see them. I know there's a brother at my ward, it's by himself all the time. Nobody goes up and says hi, I do everything I can every time to go up and say hi.

50:48And that's because I don't know who's ministering brother and ministering sisters, but I know he's lonely and we need to make that contact. But I just think it's such a tragedy that somebody in our church feels like nobody sees him and nobody knows him and nobody loves him. So that's something that we've got to do in Utah. That's something we need to do in Nebraska. That's something we need to do in the far off corners of the world. We need to let people know that they're loved and that they're seen. Yeah. You know, think back to your emphasis on home teaching interviews back in the day. Now, you know, ministering interviews, any tips or tricks or tactics come to mind because sometimes those could be awkward or it's like, you know, my just here to report that I'm a good person and I care for my people or is there more to it? What tips or tricks do you have just with the interview, ministering interviews? There's a lot more to it and actually it is the opportunity for the Elders corn president release, study presidency to do some ministry of their own and really to ascertain how each

51:49family is doing. You'll get to know the person that you're interviewing, but you'll also hopefully inquire about the families that they minister to and be able to pass that on to the bishop. This is a church of assignments and this is a church of returning and reporting. And in fact, you know, there's great examples in the temple of returning and reporting stewardship. And that is an eternal principle and the savior himself was not exempt from returning and reporting and we need to do the same thing. So again, this has to be something that we're persistent with as a presidency, but it's also something that has to come from within as a member of the ward to show up and return to report. And we need to teach that as leadership that this is a principle that we're required to do as part of magnifying our calling. I know people don't like requirements and I know that's taboo sometimes to say, well, this is hard. Well, some people don't like the guardrails.

52:51Some people don't like the, you must do this or you must do that. People don't like to be commanded in all things. So, but this is an eternal principle to return a report. And we need to teach that as an elder's court presidency, we need to teach that in quorum. As a bishopric, we need to teach that from the pulpit that returning and reporting is a requirement in these types of assignments. And when we're doing those interviews, we should be asking how they're doing. We should be asking what we could be praying for for them, kind of set an example through the interview as to what a ministering visit could look like. And then don't take those things lightly that they say that they're praying for, write them down. And then at the end of the visit, make sure when you're praying for those people, that you remember those things that they said specifically that they need prayer for. And the people that they visit, the things that they need prayer for. And then don't forget to pass it on to the bishop.

53:53Now, if they come in with a problem that's big, that they're dealing with with one of the families, that's where we offer assistance as a quorum presidency, because we have all the labor that we need. We have all the troops that we need within our word or our stake if the problem is a big problem. But this is where the word and the stake rally around even a person, an individual, if their needs are more than the companionship can handle on their own. Because some problems are big, some problems are really big, that these poor companionships are dealing with. And they need to know that they can call on the troops for assistance. Yeah, powerful, really good stuff. Well, any other point, principal concept story, do you want to make sure we squeeze in here before we wrap up? Or what do you do? I talk for hours and hours and hours. This is such an important thing that we learn about and understand our responsibilities. In Dr. and Covenant's 107.99, it says, let everybody learn their own duty. Nobody ever reads 100, where there's consequences for not learning our duty, but we need to learn

54:55our duties. We need to know what we're supposed to do as an elders quorum president or as a relief site president or as a ministering brother, a ministering sister. And there's lots of great information out there, but I think the takeaway here is if you, and I'll say it again, if you serve like Jesus, you'll start to love like Jesus, you love like Jesus, you'll start to become like Jesus. And that is a principle that's so easy to follow, but it's so simple, people kind of forget that, hey, all I'm here to do is become like Jesus. That's my goal in this life. Heavenly Father wants his goal, his work and his glory is to bring us home, but we've got to help him out. We've got to, we've got to do our part so that he can bring us home. And instead of being one of the five foolish virgins, we need to be one of the five prepared ones and do what needs to be done so that door opens and we get to join the party. And we just need to be really, really diligent and not slothful service. I think there's, if everybody goes back and reads Matthew 25, that's a great chapter that

55:59talks about how we can be like him and how we can become like him and be with him. Awesome. Well, and I'll point people to on Amazon, you can find the book there in Kindle or paper back. The new book is called Home Ministering, the process of perfecting saints. I had to change the language because once Deseret book decided that they did want to carry the book, they wanted me to change the language to the new language of ministry. So it turns out that ministry does sell, all right? It does. Yes. Yes. It's practical. They realize that there was a need and so anyways, but I also have a website that can give them a lot of information, just, just practical help and it's at Home Ministering.com. Yeah. And we'll link to all that in the show now. Super. Super. Last question I have for you, Steve, as you reflect on your time as a leader, how was being a leader? How did you become a better follower of Jesus Christ? Wow. You should have given me that question up front. Let me think about it for a while. That's a great question. Let me go another hour, if you want. Sorry.

56:59I'm a rambler. You're good. That's a great question. How is a leader? I think that it's taught me a lot more patience for leadership, being in leadership has taught me a lot more patience for leadership because I know the time and effort that's put into serving as a court president or a bishop or a counselor. I just, I know that the sacrifices that are made and so as a follower, I'm a lot more patient with them. I'm a lot more understanding of them and I am a lot more prayerful for them in their responsibilities as a follower. I know that we should be praying for our prophet and those to serve with him. We should be praying every day for our bishop and those to serve with him and the word leadership because they need those prayers. When I got released as a bishop, I always say that the mantle is half rights, privileges, authority, keys, all of that and half love for the people that you're serving. It's a combination of love and authority.

58:01When that's taken away, that love doesn't go away, but there's a big hole in your heart because I guarantee you, you can feel, people say they felt the mantle leave. I'm telling you, they feel the mantle leave because those prayers stop and they go towards the new bishop or the new Elder Scroller president and you just feel this emptiness when you get released because you've put so much of yourself into these collings that, you know, what do I do now? And so as a follower, I would say our duty is to support, sustain and pray for our leadership. Now that we've reached the end of the episode, I quickly want to thank you for supporting the Leading Saints podcast. There's so much content out there to consider and you picked this one. If Leading Saints has made an impact in your life, we would sure like to hear about it at LeadingSaints.org slash contact. And if you could quickly text or email this episode to a leader, you know, I bet it will

59:01bless their life. You can mark off your good turn daily and let's even call him in a string, okay, maybe not that far. But seriously, thank you and help us share this content. It came as a result of the position of leadership, which was imposed upon us by the God of heaven who brought forth a restoration of the gospel of Jesus Christ. When the declaration was made concerning the only true and living church upon the face of the earth, we were immediately put in a position of loneliness, loneliness of leadership from which we cannot shrink nor run away, and which we must face up with boldness and courage and ability.