Hawks-Knicks crossover as Game 5 looms

0:00It's the Lockdown Podcast Network, your team every day. This is Jake from Lockdown. When the game's on the line, the best no end to pass. Because the right assist can change everything. And off the court, it's no different. That's where your State Farm agent comes in. Whether it's protecting your car, your home, or helping you prep for the unexpected, they'll help set you up with a game plan that works for you. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. The cover options are selected by the customer, availability and eligibility, very by state. What's up everybody? This is Ross Jackson, one of the hosts of the Lockdown Podcast Network. And if you haven't heard yet, we started a club and we would love for you to join. It's called the Everydayer Club. And one of the things that you get as a member is an ad-free version of the podcast that you're listening to right now. It works with whatever podcast app you already used. Same episodes every day, just no ads. There's also a member's only group chat for fans of your team, plus a lot more.

1:00You can check it out by tapping the Everydayer Club link in the show notes. On to this show, Game 5, between the Hawks and Knicks, looms on Tuesday in advance of that contest across the tradition of the show with Lockdown Knicks, and it's coming up right now. You are Lockdown Hawks, your daily Atlanta Hawks podcast, part of the Lockdown Podcast Network, your team every day. Hello friends, welcome to episode 2, 2, 2, 4 of Lockdown Hawks podcast. I'm your host Brad Rowan coming to you on a Monday evening into Tuesday here at the end of the month of April, and I want to encourage you at the top of the show as I always do. I'll talk to you in the next episode of Lockdown Hawks, your first listen each and every day. Check out the podcast, subscribe to the show on Apple, Spotify, YouTube, etc. And I appreciate you being here as always. And today, Game 5 looms on Tuesday as I have a previous podcast that I'm joined by Gavin Shaw of Lockdown Knicks for a pre-game 5 crossover edition kind of a bonus podcast.

2:02And I want to also say, if you missed it earlier this week, I did a full breakdown of Game 4, and I had the great, and I do mean great Bob Rathman on the show on Monday. So listen to that show, subscribe to the podcast, and without any more delay, we'll dive in right now to myself and Gavin, previewing Game 5, looking at the whole thing with Hawks and Knicks coming up right now. Here we go. All right, guys, this is Promise. We are lucky enough to once again be joined by Brad Rowan of the Lockdown Hawks podcast. If you are listening on Lockdown Hawks on Gavin Shaw of Lockdown Knicks, we did a crossover pre-series. And now mid-series, 2-2, we are running it back for another one, Brad, how have you enjoyed this matchup so far? It's been interesting for sure, you know, twists and turns, and I know we talked in between Game 3 and Game 4, the vibe up there was not exactly the best before Game 4, obviously the opposite of Atlanta, people were very excited. So that's the nature of a playoff series going back and forth, especially when it's 2-2, which is kind of expected coming in the series to some degree, but not the way it happened. So yeah, a lot to get to, it's been fun so far.

3:04Yeah, it's been, it's been cool. Obviously these two teams, it just seems like whenever they interact for better or worse for the hard health of both Knicks and Hawks fans, they tend to create some magic. I wanted to start here because I have a bunch of ideas to the point that I think I have a list of my answer to this question, but your perspective on it is more valuable. What do you think is the lowest hanging fruit for Atlanta and maybe something you've been hammering throughout the series that you would like to see the Hawks lean into or simply coming out of Game 4 and saying, hey, here's like one thing or two things like they can nail and swing this series back in their favor. Yeah, and it's one of those things, it's probably easier to have done, like obviously most of the stuff is easier to have done, right? But I think that we've seen it all throughout the season, that when the Hawks are able to dictate pace, they are a much more dangerous team. And there's so many things that go into that, and this is where it comes into not being so easy to do.

4:04The easiest way to do that, if you're the Hawks, is to create turnovers. The Hawks have been really good at creating turnovers this season, and when they do it, they are really successful. There's this crazy stat where they're like 18 into when they have a certain number of turnover, all these things, like you can imagine, right? The next are a good ball security team, so it's not easy to do that. But we saw, I think the ultimate example of that in Game 4, when the Hawks didn't have a single pass free point for three and a half quarters of the game, really the entire competitive portion by the time it was, they got to have a pass free point, the game was essentially over. And the Hawks, or maybe they could win a game, I have a hard time seeing the Hawks win this series if they're not able to run, and the Knicks are very, very, very comfortable not running. They're okay with this series being played as slowly as humanly possible, given the matchup. So, that's not one thing, it's kind of an area versus one thing, but if the Hawks can find a way, and I think also be in touch about even running off of misses, they're not necessarily a tradition opportunities, that's what that's one thing that I will circle this more specific. There was only a handful of times that the Hawks were actually able to run off of a standard of miss shot in Game 4, because they just weren't pushing it hard enough, and they really

5:07have to be intentional in doing that. So that's a team wide thing, it's not an individual thing, like you, I have a huge list. But for me, it's like, if the pace is the Knicks, go in the next direction, especially in New York, it's going to be hard for the Hawks to steal a game up there. Yeah, and I think the Knicks, I mean, Mike Brown talked about at Post Game, the Knicks transition defense was just a lot better in the effort, and I guess just the execution of it was a lot cleaner, not giving up a fast break point in the first half. And it wasn't like the Knicks didn't have turnovers. I mean, the Knicks finished with 14, Jalen Brunson, in particular, had a ton of issues bringing the ball up against Dyson Daniels to the point that the Knicks pivoted to Josh Hart bringing the ball up, and then CJ McCollum picked his pocket. But I think mostly due to the Knicks playing some good defense, and some of it was poor execution on the Hawks part, like you had that sequence where the pass was laid, and Jalen Johnson-Bobbler had turned into him somehow fouling the kill bridges in the back corner, committing a foul. It was one of those games, which I think maybe, maybe similar to the end of game two for the Knicks, and the ball could gain free for the Knicks, where it just feels like everything goes against you. I know you spoke on your podcast about role player shooting variants. That is something that's not really like coachable, but could definitely swing from game

6:11to game, and was very much in the Hawks favor for most of game three, and in game four was very much in the Knicks favor. And I thought the Knicks defense made a lot of hay out of just daring. Atlanta's lesser shooters, and saying, Mogae, John, I think, Amigo, you made him last game. We're willing to live with it, but that's not my biggest one. I think my biggest one and one that my coach, XJ, has remarked on a lot, and I'm curious, your perspective on it, something we talked about coming into the series, and that is more stricter ghost coverage on Josh Hart. And to me, that doesn't even necessarily have to be putting Okongu on him. It could be Dyson Daniels on him, but Dyson Daniels just gets to Rome. And I guess the danger in doing that for Atlanta is you lose a hiding spot for Cijama column. And when Cijama column's on him, it doesn't really make sense to have him Rome because he's not going to have that big of an impact at the rim. But I am a little bit surprised that Atlanta hasn't dared Josh to just to take and make threes, which is something he's largely been unwilling to do. And it feels like most of the best teams in the league do that, but similar to the Pacers

7:11in the conference finals last year, Atlanta has decided so far, not to really lean into that. I think it's possible. I think the reason why they haven't is probably what you laid out. They're okay with having McCollum be able to hide somewhere. And, you know, the best guy to do that is Daniels, but they also want Daniel to run Brunson, which is obvious reasons. He's been so good on Brunson. So it's one of those examples of how this stuff's not always the cleanest. You might want to try it at some point. I agree. I think we talked about it on the program. I agree with you. Right. Exactly. It's more of a, it's volume. It's not necessarily he. There are guys who shoot better percentages than others and need to be guarded less than others. So I wouldn't be a bad idea to try it more because the Hawks, it's funny because the Hawks, I'm not had a great defensive series.

8:13But certainly I would point to their offense being the bigger problem in the series so far. So it's like, I, they've had some success defensively. And I want to ask you about some of the stuff later on. But I would not, I would not be imposed to doing what the next did to the Hawks essentially. And just say, Hey, the guys who we don't think are going to burn us. Burn us. And if Josh makes two in a row, maybe maybe you change it. I'm kind of on board with making him do that if I'm the Hawks probably. Yeah. We saw him in game five or game four alone. Pump is way out of an open three to take a contested Florida that he missed. And then the most egregious one was wide open wing three. Pump fake dribble in step back off balance three that he then front rim. That was just great. And it's honestly like a quintessential example of him being in his head despite to the point of your listeners. Him on paper being a very good shooter. And I think he is, I think he is a good shooter. I just, I think he's the one person who doesn't really believe that. Unfortunately. And he was good, by the way, he was good in that game too. Like, he was very good in game four. So what's it?

9:13It's just interesting because sometimes when guys are playing well, they start filling themselves with more shooters and two point. I didn't see him like that. Is the case for Josh. Like some guys it's not almost shooting is almost separate from the rest of it. It's like. Dice and Daniels is the same way, by the way. It's more extreme with Dice and Daniels than as a Josh Hart. But it's like, there's a confidence thing that you either have it or you don't. And sometimes you don't have it and it shows. Yeah, I think in like what was almost a do or die game for the next leg. And he's almost too smart. He's like, I think he always is thinking his head, like me shooting a three cannot be our best shot. And I don't want us to lose that way. And it almost hurts him. But yeah, his aggression, his defense were all amazing. But I guess flipping to the other side of the ball. Like, this is the other one. I'm really curious about. We saw Atlanta obviously very, I think it was the defining feature of their wins in game two and game three. Their ability to hunt Jalen Brunson specifically with CJ McCollum. Nick's made a switch. They went back instead of that ghost coverage that in some ways work. Basically everywhere but CJ worked very well for them. I think in particular to stifle Jalen Johnson with cat on Dyson Daniels and playing off.

10:14But CJ was hurting them too much. So the next made a switch. And they said, we're going to guard you more traditionally. And we're going to put Carl Anthony Towns on on eco Congwu. And I know that post game quince nighter was talking a little bit about running more pick and roll for a congwu. That was something I, I definitely had in my notes live. And I think especially when cat is doing so much offensively and is winded. It is a way they can hurt him. And I'm curious your thoughts on that. The area that I'm even a little bit more surprised of. And I want to give credit at Jeff Rasmussen of hot hand theory was on our pod yesterday. And he made this point. I thought it was a great one. He was saying, I'm really shocked. There's not more Jalen Johnson Dyson Daniels pick and roll. Because not only do you get Brunson in the action and you get Brunson on Jalen Johnson. Or you're blitzing Jalen Johnson, which is what the next did one time in the first quarter when the hawks did run that. You're also the guys not involved in the action are all shooters. And then the nicks cannot provide the heavy help that they can on basically every other two man action at the hawks run helping off Dyson Daniels helping up Jalen Johnson of those are the two guys in the action.

11:16So on two different fronts, that seems like a play type that Atlanta should really ramp up. Is that something you've been thinking about is that something you think quince nighter will lean into a little bit more game. And I do think it makes total sense. I think they should try. And I think they it's one of those things where this hawks team is not. You know, it always bogged down in the playoffs in general, but the hawks are really not a team that does a ton of mismatched hunting like. Yeah. And they know they should in this series and they have done it to your point. They've almost like there was whole stretches of games where they were like almost pointing at Brunson and saying we're going to come right you and hide and hide it, right. But they they stopped and they didn't just stop doing it in game for but there was a little a little bit less of that. And I think that that's a good a good way to do it would be to have those guys and have Jalen and Dyson in an action together on an unintentional basis. I also think that Dyson should be using it as a screener more than he was in game for. They lessen the usage of hip as a screener and I know it's a little bit strange for a guard to be like a primary screener, but he's one of the best screeners. And also he's comfortable and he even gave an interview I thought I was interested to John Hollinger.

12:17This is more of a picture thing, but where he acknowledged just flat out like he's basically playing the five on offense a lot of the time, which we all know, but for a guy to say he's like, you know, I'm basically the five. It's like, yeah, you are. But between I think that's a good idea to have those guys be in action. And I also think in general having Daniels having more of a scorers mindset like actually driving at Brunson like allowing Brunson to just. And by the way, coming into the same thing at times again for. A lot of Brunson to like be bailed out like for me, it's not you don't want to post up jail in Brunson. Jalen Brunson is really like fire hydrant strong and like isn't going to like just give up. But what he can't do is stay in front of a hard line drive from Daniels or Kaminga. So that's the kind of different thing what you were asking, but I think in general getting downhill and exercising ways to hunt him and maybe not traditional avenues. It's not just about like, oh, obviously the next I've decided McCollum's not going to beat them anymore against Brunson, which is fine. I understand why they would do that after the way the first three games went. But getting him an action some other way and being intentional over and over and over again.

13:21It's not natural to what the team plays, but they know that's got to be their best office in some ways. Yeah, as well said, and it is I think Atlanta. You just have to punish him being on the floor. And Atlanta, I don't think did that to the same extent in game four. And I think they frankly let the nicks off the hook a little bit in game four. And I've been feeling from possession one of game five. That's going to be a big deal. I mentioned in our post game show, but in the first quarter Dyson did exactly what you're talking about. He drove it. Jalen. He's fine. And he got an easy layup. And I was like, oh, they're going to have to pivot and put Jalen back on CJ. Aren't they? And then you don't you don't see that happen once the rest of the game. He gets the one crash and put back in the third quarter, which is a way teams the Celtics in particular heard Brunson. Like when you put him on a non shooting wing, usually that guy's going to be bigger stronger faster than Jalen. And like they should be getting a ton of offensive rebounds and other games this series that happen a lot. I have a feeling like Atlanta's turnovers and the fact that they just didn't get up a ton of shots and had a lot of long misses from threes. Probably all affected that, but like you got to you have to find ways to punish that matchup.

14:21But when we come back, you're going to ask me some questions about the nicks and their potential adjustments heading to game five. And we'll get into some final keys for the series when we come back right here. I'm locked on nicks and locked on ox. If you have sweet tooth like many of us happen to have you know that actually we might be difficult to find that perfect treat without all the sugar that you actually don't want even with that sweet tooth. That's why the free to rainbow five hour energy shot also seeks to bring that nostalgia flavor back in a whole new way. I mean, both five hour energy shots treat your tastes, but it's like an actual actual explosion of free flavor with a tasty caffeine kick as well. It's a quick and easy way to satisfy that sweet craving that you actually might have will keep it things simple and all the go at the same time. Five hour energy is zero sugar treat that is always sweet tooth approved and I love how convenient it is as well. It's a small portable shot. I can grab whatever I need to and whatever I want to honestly when I need a little bit of a pick me up in the middle of my day. If you're a podcast listener on a regular basis, you probably know this already, but I work late at night and that helps really to get that getting through the long days is five hour energy is very, very helpful for long days long nights and especially right now during the playoffs.

15:23Five hour energy also has become my go to when I want to be sweet about any of going overboard as well and it's truly perfect for what I am looking for. It can be flavored chaos with free rainbow five hour energy shots right now they're available online at five hour energy dot com or on Amazon. One more time the place to go to find them is five hour energy dot com or on Amazon. All right, we're back locked on nicks locked on hawks Brad. It is your mic going for what do you want to know about the next end of things. It's one of those days where we need like three hours right you know, I do want to ask you because it's become you know it's very natural social media becomes the player versus. Player versus player wars and the battles about who's playing well and who's not. It's not been a great jail and Brunson series and that gets that gets discussed a lot less when you win which I understand. And also you look they're the favorite in the series even with him doing that so far that's the nature of the beast going back down going back to New York, but I wonder how much how much you not that how much you care but like how much you take away from that because he's facing one of the best.

16:24Take a number defenders in the entire league and nice deals has been fantastic on him the entire series. And they have a number two guy and it goes in a walker that's also a quality option on Brunson. Are you nothing obviously the next would be fine if they just win the series no matter what, but do you think the Brunson needs to be better slash more efficient in order to win the series or can they get by with what it's been so far, which is not he's not a decoy. He's still run everything still runs through him, but it's he's been a smaller part of what they've needed to do at times in the series. Yeah, so I know I remember you asked me before the series what were my biggest fears and my number one was that I don't know if Jalen's 100% healthy and I don't have a great answer to that to be clear before Hawks fans jump on me. I think Dyson Daniels was like a top five defensive player in basketball. I think he him and Sar Thompson are probably the two players in the NBA most built to just make Jalen Brunson's life hell and he's executed that and he's been incredible at that and it might be as simple as that. But we've also seen like again, he had that it's weird because he missed one game, but he had the ankle turn in Sacramento and he scored four less points per game.

17:28And this is like in mid January and he's been down from 27 points again to 23 points per game from like 56 57 true shooting to like 52 true shooting like he's not been the same guy as a scorers since then. It could even just be that he's he's getting a little bit older and the fact that the nicks under top the video flight of 43 minutes a game for 100 games a year for three straight years like who knows, but like it's possible he's breaking down in some way. But he does not look like he is at the peak of his explosiveness and we've we've seen stretches right like he had like after Dyson Daniels. I think dominated the first two times they played when he became a hawk he had like three straight efficient 30 point games like we've seen Jalen and like it should be a battle between those two like Dyson Daniels. I know told our buddy Fred Katz that Jalen is like one of the two hardest players in the league for him to garden turn because he's a psychopath one of the two players in the league he looks forward to guarding more than anyone else, which is is so cool. There's mutual respect there for a reason and Jalen has not gotten his licks and I don't know if that's just because it's a bad series because he's hurt or because Dyson's just done an incredible job to actually answer your question.

18:29I absolutely think the nicks can win this series without him because I think Carl Anthony Towns like argue blue maybe hawks fans would say CJ McCollum has been the best player in this series and game four was actually the first game Mike Brown to your question was actually willing to admit that and operate like that and play like that. And I think Atlanta has more answers and more counters for Kat than they've shown, but I don't think they have any great answers for Kat. And right now they don't have any great answers for OG and an OB either. So the nicks have some counters they can they can survive with Jalen playing like this. Ideally just some of the shots that typically go down from would start to go down like he missed he missed a layup. He missed like a five foot jumper in the key to other like tough jumpers in the first quarter but that were halfway down and out like it feels like even if he's not as fast as he should be. Just through matchup hunting and just through variance he should be able to shoot a little bit better and anything is added to it. But I absolutely think the nicks can win this series with Jalen playing like this. I think the concerns come and that's again not a shot at Atlanta just a reality of like if you're facing the Celtics, the pistons that thunder going forward.

19:30Like I don't know how many more rounds the nicks could win without a better Jalen Branson. Yeah, it makes total sense and you know I had I had this fear that the nicks were going to realize towns needed to do more and they did that in game four. And you know I know you would have seen it. The sick goes of all the same action that just kept working over and over again the nicks were able to I'm sure knowing the Hawks. I know that was probably on film quite a bit this this week and they have a different plan to stop that particular action. But then there'll be there'll be a different one like that's the nature of the back and forth of the series right. I want to ask kind of the reverse of what you asked me already, which is like I'm sure you've already been yelling things on your podcast. You can repeat yourself if you need to, but are they're low hanging fruit? Like what's what's what's what's the top of the list for like the next we're not doing something and it's driving me crazy. It could be rotations. It could be whatever you think it needs to be it could be play actions. And you're smiling because I think you already have several they probably have 13 answers to give me, but be a pick whichever one you want to share. And let me because Hawks must be interested to see like what's in the minute because you know the next just come up a win.

20:30It's one of those vibes things when it's two to two, but the the team that just won is probably in a better place mentally than the team that lost. So what are you still scared of or what are you what are you begging for at this point? Yeah, I mean, I'm laughing because it's the same low hanging fruit. I've been saying for a year to have on this podcast. Yeah, changing their starting lineup, which the the post came quote from Mike Brown was we've won a lot of games with the starting group. I didn't want to panic and just change anything. I always want from the podcast. It's like it'd be crazy to panic after 3000 possessions of being mediocre overall and terrible. Again, they're minus 16 net rating on the year against top 10 teams. It would be crazy Brad to panic after a year and a half sample size playing more than any other lineup than the NBA. That's a way too soon. You got to play them for at least a decade before you think I don't want to cut you off. I promise I want you to keep going. But I was in Brown's press conference before game four. Sure. I was convinced he was going to change the lineup because when he was asked about he gave such a such a not like a such a what kind of wait and see and whatever happens. It's my decision kind of thing. I can't remember why I might be that quote in front of me.

21:31But I think everybody in the room is thinking, oh, they're going to change it. I had a tweet written out. I didn't know what I was I was asking your I was not going to next people that cover the next like, hey, what do you think he's going to do because we were all kind of thinking he's going to change it. And then he didn't do it. And I was so they won the game. So now he won't do it for sure for game five. So you won't you won't have that. And let's say lose a game. I promise you they're not going to do it now. So I just was really it was fast and they didn't do it because I was thinking, oh, it's going to be the bride is going to be Mitch Robinson. Yeah, yeah. So that's that would be my number one. But what Mike Brown did do is play it last, right? I think in game three, I played 22 minutes and only played 12 minutes in game four. And I think it's representative that I know you noted this on your pod. Like when the starters came out the next rep, whatever 2324 points, the next starters were still in that neutral in the game. Like the Hawks played the next starters to and to a T. And that I think is just going to be the reality of the series. And you know that that's actually good as long as the next starters do not get their butts kicked. That is good enough for the New York Knicks in this series. Individually, like a lot of that has been like paired down to Mikhail Bridges who is a again, this is all small sample size.

22:33You don't want to read too much into the absurdity of this number. He is a minus 46.1 net rating in this series. Carl and three towns, meanwhile, has a plus 30 net rating in this series, even though they've played. I'm sure at least half their minutes together Brad, which makes that number like it seems just impossible. That tells you basically they are so, so good like with cat lineups on the floor. They are so, so bad with Mikhail lineups on the floor. I'll give you some of the other lineup numbers real quick. Again, this is all small sample size. So some of it is just shooting variance. But I think it is it is proportionate to what we saw in the regular season. Cat on the floor with with no Jalen no Mitch. So cat plus shooters cat plus the bench plus 60 and 38 possessions. Mitchell Robinson to our surprise, which he thought he was going to even though I thought he was he was really good in game two. And I thought he was really for the most part some defensive laughs, but offensive rebounding wise started to assert himself more in game four. But Brunson plus Mitch with no heart and no cat is plus 12.6. That's only in 23 possessions. So I want to see more of that. And then the starting lineup. I thought they were going to play, which is the starters with Ducin for Mikhail. It's such a small sample size.

23:33It was basically it was most of the second half of game three, but plus 99.6 in 35 possessions. Cat, Brunson, Duce together plus 56 and 67 possessions. So I think the nicks have their formula and that is like cat plus shooting bench lineups. Brunson plus Mitch plus three shooters. And then cat, Brunson, Duce together with any two other guys. Like if you lean into that, I just think that the nicks present not only for the Hawks, but frankly for every other team in the NBA very real and like almost impossible questions to answer. If the nicks play the starting lineup a ton or like the shooting like these they shop pretty well with the starters. And if the shooting gets worse, the Hawks can and should take advantage of those minutes to maybe win game five. Yeah, and it's just on the other side, you know, the Hawks starting lineup has been incredible. Yeah, for three months. And in the series they haven't been in the series have been very ordinary actually been worse than ordinary so there's like this. It's it's very typical playoffs where now that now that you're actually on the Hawks side is well, that not have to start line up. It's like well. The bar is a lot higher when you just when you got here basically because the starting lineup the Hawks essentially won the run because of that lineup that five man unit has been dominant.

24:41And I don't know maybe if the Hawks lose game five, they might go get more aggressive because then you're you're truly you're back against the wall, but. Well, it's always interesting because like if we did this pack this episode before game four. I would have been like, Hey, why are we not playing much or Robinson more like there's been so many different things. I was wondering if they were like the double big things been really interesting to me that they need to play that all the time, but the ground just being very open like no, we don't like it in the series. It's like why though explain that to me. And not that I was mining that is on the Hawks side of things, but no, it's it's fascinating and I think that it's going to be starter versus starters quite a bit if I have to guess in game five. Maybe maybe maybe the British quick, quick hook will happen again because he got the old Keith Bogins. That's a Nate Duccanism, but you'll keep Bogins in the second half where he played what was like four or four minutes. Yeah. Not not great big picture. I will not bring down next fans, but my mission in the big picture with me. I think I don't know if they can go lower, man, you can. They all know you're bottom of the is that the Mariana trench right now 24,000 feet deep on the cover.

25:43It's not it's not good, but when we come back, let's talk some final keys for game five, what we're looking for what we are expecting. All right, man, I'm just going to leave it open forum to you. I have like a couple more questions slash curiosities, but like anything we haven't mentioned yet that you're really like looking for is like a litmus test for Atlanta in game five and like those first few minutes of the game. It's interesting because like I like you and I've listened to you enough. I've talked to you enough to know that you're in the weeds like I am and that's I enjoy our conversations for that reason. Next, which is why this is such a normy thing for that I'm going to say, which is why I give that premise. There's a little bit of a play better adjustment for the Hawks and I mean that particularly with Jalen Johnson and Kelly's inner Walker. They're two best players and neither of them have been even close to where they need to be in the series and they don't have like they don't have that. I know the OG and I know he's a great defender, but he's not like he's been on Jalen Johnson whole series. Brunson has the Dyson Daniels excuse to some degree or explanation more than excuse, right?

26:43Jalen Johnson and it's just their first rodeo. Nikiel in a different role. Jalen really at all, but both of those guys and I think Jalen Johnson got more of the heat rightfully so in my opinion, but Nikiel has not been his normal self either. And I think there's a little bit of a play better adjustment. You would have thought it might might have come a game forward home because generally speaking you're probably going to shoot better at home. Now the pressure is really, really on and we've seen it at times in this series. I was going to walk her hit five threes in game four. Can I keep them afloat at times when the hell was going well. Jalen Johnson was getting down hill in the first half and then he kind of stopped and he can't stop in the series. So that's like again, a very normy thing for me to say, but they cannot get by the Hawks offense cannot be good enough to win the series unless at least one of them. Like is there normal self? If the Hawks came, there's no way McCombs done heroic work in the series. He's become the New Yorkville and all that stuff, but like that's not realistic as a pathway to win a series. Like it worked for three games. That's great, but the Hawks have to have something akin to their normal production and efficiency level from either Jalen Johnson, Nikiel is an awaker or both.

27:46It's pretty simple. And sometimes it's like really complicated. That's very simple, but I do mean it that way. Like it's just I can't see them winning two in the next three games with those got strictly can't see it again. Again, again, this is a very basic staff. We're talking about Nikiel was like post all star break, like maybe like the most efficient player in the NBA and like what he was easily 50 40 90 on high volume. And he's been he's shot great from three in this. There's 43% from three. He's 22.7% from two point range in this series. Like that, that just feels like something you could have like again Scotty Pippin Dennis Robin out there like he he's going to shoot better than that at some point. You think. Yeah, you think and look to say it allowed. I've been next to played really well defensively. The most part in the series and they they deserve a lot of credit, especially in game for they were lights out in game for everyone. I'm sure you share all the quotes that I that I have everyone on the Hawks side was like the nicks got way better. They raised their intensity level. They raised their production level and we didn't match it. And that was honestly what happened to some green game for came the Hawks and that's the other thing I was almost going to say is that.

28:49All right, now the Hawks have acknowledged that they've seen on film where the nicks can get to with when they want to get there. Can the Hawks get to that level physicality wise, obviously there's the execution stuff and the efficiency stuff that all matters to. But if you're going to get out physical, I think Jason Jones also use the word pumped in a quote to John Hollinger. Like if you say that, that means you're either going to be ready to match it or you're not and we're going to find out pretty quickly. I think in game five. No, that's I'm happy you brought that up because that's something I like you. I think I like to lean into the into the net ratings and the numbers. To quote sac low, the Forbes and the snorps a lot. But I think Josh Hart tilted this. I mean, he's he's Josh even in game two Josh came out and got like those two steals and got a dunk in the half court right away. And I think like OG and a nobian car like many towns have been the next two best players, but Josh Hart has been. I mean, like he has in playoffs past and someone who's been a target on our podcast because of the not shooting stuff and the ghost coverage stuff, but like he has just been essential. Like he like him like the play where he just we went through CJ McCollum and like slam the ball down like I think that will everyone on the nicks up a little bit because before that it was it was CJ McCollum like winning the press conference and talking his is you know what word I can't say.

29:59Like because and he should and he should. He was punking Dale Brunson. He's what he's six years older than him. He's never been like considered like and MVP candidate like Jalen Brunson. He was clearly outplaying him and cooking him like over and over and over again embarrassing Jalen Brunson and like he should be talking like Jalen Johnson was talking to McCale after he missed the game winner again too. And he should be talking and he should be saying you suck right now. You're not going to figure it out this series. And McCale's got into a shell. So it worked. And I think Josh like that. That like totally intangible aggro battle like Josh and OG took that back in the nicks favor. And I think Atlanta's going to come out and be like full court pressure like like the fact like like Dyson Daniels picking Jalen Brunson's pocket at mid court should get in the nicks head like it absolutely should be a factor in this series going forward. And like Jalen's going to have to be tougher on the ball. Josh is going to be after tougher on the ball. And the nicks are going to have to like again you can't slack back now that it's too to and that would be my concern that the nicks relax just a little bit and the hawks race out to attend point lead really early in game one. And it felt like the road team has come out and landed some punches in almost I guess not game three but every other game in this series. So we'll see how that goes. But I think the nicks did a great job flipping that in game four is the more experienced playoff team.

31:10And I'm really fascinated like you with Jalen Johnson like I kind of thought going in just because this was his first playoff series and obviously first one in this type of role like it could be a challenge and Josh has played. I think above his head defensively in that match of OG is just like if you're going to build someone to guard Jalen Johnson they would look like OGN and OB like I'm curious like what adjustments he could make but at times in game three it felt like that didn't matter. And in game four it felt like it flipped back to closer to the first two games. And just to say on Johnson like it's not easy to do against the nicks but he's had some success when he's able to get all the way all the way to the rim now he's been met at the room. Oh, like if he gets to the job too small. Yeah. And that's that's a big picture thing that I was put out with you on Johnson to is that he's so athletic and so forceful when he wants to be that he sells for a lot of these like eight foot like a little eight foot like kind of half leaners. And he can make them that's the thing he can make them but it doesn't impact the defense as much. If he's getting all the way to the rim there's more kickouts more sprays and that's something that close to that are in those and our staff always talks about a lot. So yeah, I'm with you by the way just to say this where we sit in Atlanta was where Josh got the tentacle foul Josh wanted.

32:16He was I'm sure he's just coming through on TV too but just in a special way he was absolutely going insane like I I said is to Fred cats that night. And the record is in game he gets ejected. He was absolutely he was going absolutely nuts like you have the tea and didn't stop and I was like. I mean I was entertained by it because he was just going so crazy it was like the old dream on green thing like oh you give me a tentacle foul early I can do whatever I want to now because you're not going to throw me out of the game. I think Josh knew that he was kind of had a pass and he's he's kind of a maniac and I and I appreciate it. It feels like in like early 2000s like Will Ferrell movie where like they're trying to come up with a solution they're like we need to out crazy the crazy and it's like it's like that kind of thing. Because us are all bit you know but that's that's how you get your team like when your teams asleep at the wheel and do you put you lose to work teams. And we were wondering like on our pod we were like are the nicks just broken are they going to come out and like give up and Atlanta is going to run over them this is going to be the end of an error and like for like Josh to hit that further like it is like. A dream on green is the perfect analogy because there were times where the wars were close to breaking and it would be Dremon green being like no I'm just going to be a lunatic out there and you guys if you don't match that.

33:18I need you to get to 50% of that in the next day and we'll see that can continue. I know like as you said at the beginning you and I could have a five hour conversation about this for the sanity of our listeners I will let them off the hook here. But one final time before I let you go Brad can you remind locked on nicks listeners because as I mean I'm sure they recognize when you're on these crossovers do incredible work. And I do think it is so valuable all these people like especially like our people who are still listening 35 minutes into this. They listen to a million next podcast it's so cool to get the perspective from the other side so where can they find you and all your work. Yeah, I appreciate you doing this as well. Obviously lots of hocks is available. The same place is locked on nicks is YouTube, Apple, Spotify, etc. All the same things just change the word nicks to the word box. You can find this somewhere and I'm at BT rolling on Twitter. If you want to hear my me melting down in the middle of the basketball game most of the time. No, it should be fun. I think the game five will obviously break breaking the ground here. We'll tell a big story in the series. It won't be over no matter what happens to game five. I know that whoever wins game five it'll feel like it's over in whatever direction.

34:19It won't be but the stats are the stats if you win if you're if you're too soon you win game five. You're in a commanding position no matter what happens. So very obviously a swing spot for my listeners as well tell folks what they can find all the coverage because I know people. This especially this time of year are in the weeds more than they usually are on the on the opposite side. Yeah, same same deals Brad everywhere you can find locked and hawks you can find locked on nicks and my Twitter got hacked five years ago so just check out at locked on nicks on Twitter. But until then he's Brad Rowland I'm Gavin show will talk to you real soon I'm locked on nicks and locked on box.