Guy Talk: Ask your Bible questions

0:00Hi, I'm Bill Arnold. Thank you for listening to this podcast. There are many more podcasts available at myfaithradio.com. Your support makes this possible. Thank you. If I could just have your attention for a second, I don't want to overstate this, but we are going to start right now. Oh, don't you know it's the Bill Arnold show. It's Bill. I want to warm welcome to the Bill Arnold show. It's time for guide talk or guys who talk. I've got a professor, a pastor and a Sunday school teacher on board today. So all the way from here in Minnesota to Sarasota and all parts in between, we're looking for your questions to answer. We will do the very best weekend. So whatever question you have, just text it over 877-933-2484. Again,

1:10877-933-2484. I've got Dr. Dr. Greg Borgand. Hello, Greg. It's good to be here, Bill. Thank you, Pastor Tom Parrish. Always good to be with you. And Sunday school teacher Jeff. Herdorn. Oh, was that a new record? That's a new record, yeah. Good afternoon, Bill. It's called a pregnant pause. Yeah, that was a long pause. Why it was looking at me like, you better talk. We almost tripped the silence alarm, but that's okay. You know, we have a silence alarm because long enough it gets tripped, yeah. So that's why it happens when it trips. Let's not find out. All right, 877-933-2484. Here's my first question already in for today's show. Can you explain the first death and the second death for unbelievers and believers? The first death and the second death. Well, the second death, probably they're referring to in Revelation 20. It says that those

2:10who appear before the Great White Throne judgment are thrown, their names are not found in the Lamb's book of life. And they are thrown into the lake of fire and the lake of fire is the second death. And so the first death would be a physical death, the second death, a spiritual death, or the eternal death as it's described. And so I often say, I like this one, born once, die twice, born twice, die once. What do I mean? If you're born once, if you're born just of water, remember Jesus with Nicodemus on the roof that night when he says you must be born again. If you're only born physically, you're going to die physically and you're going to die spiritually. But if you're born again, if you're born of water and of spirit, like Jesus said to Nicodemus, born twice, you will die once. You will die a physical death. But as scripture says, as John says in Revelation, the second death has no power over you. So if you're born again, born twice,

3:13you will only die once. I read an interesting article that really kind of caught me off guard. It's the five major problems of the church today written by some scholars we don't know and they seem to know their business. But one of the top things they said in there is that it doesn't matter what denomination you're part of. The assurance of salvation is at the lowest it's ever been in Christian history. So people can make the confession of faith and at my church, we have people come forward to be prayed with or to receive Jesus. They can do that. But there doesn't seem to be a way that these people, we mean our failures. We're not following up in a good enough way to where six months from now they have that assurance or six years from now they have their assurance. Now they're wondering again, you know, am I really saved or am I not saved? And they the they don't know where to go or who to talk to. I think that's something that we'll talk they should come to the show. Yeah, we need to talk about that because people need to know that when you have given your heart to the Lord Jesus, he's faithful. You don't need to be concerned

4:15about that. You know, now I can encourage people, he wants you to walk with him. He wants you to grow as a disciple. He wants that living relationship with you. But in terms of are you saved or not, that really seems to be a big issue. Yeah, there's only one way to get into the Lamb's book of life. And that's through the finish work of Christ on the cross. And we've had this discussion before about who is actually because in Revelation talks about books plural. And so in one of the books and maybe God's library is everything we've ever done. But we don't know what the other books are other than the Lamb's book of life or the book of life. But in other places, it talks about the blotting out. You just mentioned that. And you know, where I my position is is that everybody's name is put in the book of life when they come into life and only blotted out when they reject Jesus. Now where do I get that from? Well, one of the places is Psalm 69 verses 17 and 18 and

5:17verses 27 and 28. This is David speaking. He says, and do not hide your face from your servant for I am troubled. I am in trouble. Hear me speedily, draw near to my soul and redeem it, deliver me because of my enemies. And then verse 27, iniquity and then add iniquity to their iniquities, talking about his enemies and let them not come into your righteousness, let them be blotted out of the book of living and not be written with the righteous. So there's one of several passages like that. But the whole idea is is that we're all in there until we're not, at least that's my position. Yes, so two big themes from both of you guys is this idea of assurance of salvation. And you use the word assurance pastor and professor, you used that you wear in the lambs book of life and will never be blotted out of it. Both of those ideas are that once we are born again, once we are born twice, that is a state that we are now in for all fraternity and

6:19you cannot lose it. And I love this topic. Tom, I didn't know that they surveyed this idea of assurance of salvation. And it's fascinating to me that we are at the lowest point of that survey or whatever you said that there's fewer people today that understand that. And to me, it's just one of these cardinal doctrines of understanding salvation that once you are saved, God holds you in His hand, nothing can take you out. Your salvation is kept in heaven for you, shielded by God's power until that day. John writes the end of the first John saying, I write these things to those of you who believe that you may know that you have eternal life. We can know that we know that we know. And Greg, I agree with you because you think of the consistency of the word of God. It doesn't contradict itself. So you have the word saying, the Lord desires that all be saved and come in knowledge of the truth. That doesn't mean you started out with your name blotted out already or not in there. Your name is there when you don't

7:20respond to Jesus. You don't, you know, die to yourself and give yourself to Him. That's when the blotting out seems to occur. And I've thought about that seriously. He wants everybody there. But we don't get there because we are free. We're all in too often. We want to be our own God and make our own choices. The idea of blotting out takes into consideration children who are born into the world or maybe a couple of sufferers miscarriage. And besides just the passage with Nathan and David, it seems to me to make sense that they're in the book of life. The minute that confirms that confirms that. And those who suffer mental disability or are some way incapacitated intellectually that they're covered by this too because they couldn't make that decision. And God's amazing grace. They're already in the book of life. They haven't done anything to be blotted out from the book of life. So with the blotting out take place, when a person is taking their last breath of life. Right up to the last minute. I mean, if they don't

8:23declare, God gives, like you said, Jeff, He gives every opportunity to come to Him through Jesus Christ right up to the very last minute or second. And if they choose not to receive Christ, then they're blotted out from the book of life at that point. So that happens at the point of death? Yeah. It doesn't happen afterward. It happens right at that point. Yeah. Remember, if I may, just take 30 seconds here. The alternative view and we've had this discussion many times on this program. The alternative view is that only the righteous are ever in the Lamb's book of life because they are the only ones who ever belong to the Lamb and they're the ones who have eternal life. And so no one is actually blotted out so that God knows who is going to believe on Him and who's not going to believe in Him and only believers are in that book from the very beginning. Regardless, regardless, now this is kind of just a little technical point here. Either way, in that your approach where some are blotted out and only the righteous are left in it

9:28or what I think that only the righteous wherever into it, those two books are identical at the end of the age. So they're just identical. Absolutely. And it and neither view takes away from this idea that once you're born again, you are saved for all eternity. Absolutely. You know, I would love to. I want to make motion pictures for a living and I still like to do lots of videos and whatever. I would love to do one with at the crucifixion where you've got the two thieves on each side. You get the angel Gabriel in the background with the book of life. He's holding on to it. And the one who says, Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom. You know, Gabriel puts a line under the name. He is just thrilled. The other one, Mox Jesus, till the very end. And when he dies, you seem scratching the name out. You know, and that's really what's going on. We are there. He wants us there. We're the ones that don't give ourselves that opportunity. And we're the ones that keep ourselves out. And one last word, because I know some people are thinking this when we have this discussion, well, if God knows, does that mean he causes all this to happen? And neither none of us here believe that just because God knows the end from the beginning

10:34and he knows who's going to be saved and who's not going to be saved. That doesn't mean he, therefore, then causes some to be saved and others not to be saved. You know, when I was a nice girl, my mother knew what I was going to do that was stupid before I did it, but she didn't cause it. That's right. It was my own fault. All right, eight, seven, seven, nine, three, three, two, four, eight, four. They want us to discuss Luke seven. The nice person says, discuss Luke seven where the centurion references being under authority. I don't understand how saying I tell people what to do and they do it impresses Jesus so much. Maybe I'm missing something. I understand how saying just say the word expresses faith, but the authority part doesn't strike me as profound. I don't think he's trying to impress Jesus at all. He's just simply established the fact that he understands what it means to be under authority and he recognizes Jesus as being

11:37that authority. And then all he has to do is speak a word from the Cornelius's own lip and that will be enough. So I don't think that he's trying to impress Jesus at all. He's just recognizing the significance of what authority really means because he experienced it on a human plane and now associated with Jesus who is the ultimate authority. Absolutely. I mean, remember Jesus said, well, I'll go with you. And he goes and the centurion goes, no, no, no, you don't have to do that. You're over every sickness everywhere. I understand that authority. So all you have to do is say the word. And so Jesus says the word, the centurion goes back and it says, and by the way, when Jesus heard this, he says, I tell you, I've not found such great faith even in Israel. And it says that the centurion returned home and found the servant well. He understood that Jesus didn't have to take one step towards his servant in order to heal a servant because he had authority over that

12:42sickness. It's kind of like again, I'll go back to college now before I met Jan. I did a lot of girls and it's normal what happened in college in the 60s and 70s. Anyway, I had a bad habit of saying to a new girl I was dating, you know, I'm glad to go out with you. You know, there are a lot of pretty girls and but I'm glad to go out with you. They didn't seem to go over the road. I don't know why it didn't connect. Then I learned I had to add a different phrase. I know I've dated a lot of pretty girls, but you are undoubtedly the most beautiful woman I've ever met in my life. And you know, that kicked off of the relationship. That's what this centurion saying to Jesus. I know authority. I have to live that way. But boy, have you got the authority and the biggest authority there is. Great point. Learned by experience. All right. Next question was Moses denied living in the Promised Land because the water from the rock incident. Well, yes, it's a direct result of that. So if you recall at the beginning of the Exodus, God tells Moses to strike the rock or

13:46smite the rock and water would flow from it. We then get a broader picture in the New Testament that the rock is Jesus. Jesus was smited and salvation, living water flows out. So all those pictures, all those images are in the New Testament. Jesus is the rock. Jesus is smited. In fact, Isaiah 53 says that he is smitten for our afflictions. He struck. He struck. He is stricken for our inequities, right? Paraphrase that verse. Now at the end of the Exodus, God says, speak to the rock. And we know the story. He didn't follow God's instruction. He strikes the rock again. He see a couple of things he did. One, he didn't listen to God. He said, speak to the rock. But two, he put it on himself. Must I do this again? He said, I don't remember the exact phraseology, put it put him on himself in both ways. He wasn't following God's instructions. He

14:48smites the rock again. He strikes the rock again and water comes out and God says, you messed up. You're not going to go into the promised land. So there's the picture. Jesus was struck once for the sins for salvation, not twice. He was, he was sacrifice once and sat down at the right hand of the father. Now after that, we call on the Lord and everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. We use our voice, we use our mouth, we use our heart to believe to be saved. We don't strike the rock second time. I think there's another application as well that it says in scripture that leaders are held to a higher accountability. Now think about this. He was the leader of what we say was the actual, the two million plus children and was even more than that. So he was leader overall, anything he did, anything he said would have ramifications far beyond direct influence,

15:49indirect influence and even organizational influence. So when he assumed the authority of hitting that rock, God gave him the consequence of that sin as a leader of so many people that were witnesses to that event. And so he was held more accountable to it, I think. So I think there's, that's another way of looking at it as well. One of the problems we have as we read scripture is that we read the words, we read the narrative, we read the history, we don't get the facial expressions. We don't get the attitudes that are involved. That's what Bill wants to get when he goes to heaven. I want the tone. I'm with you. I can't wait to hear the tone. But think how many times Moses did something as the leader, but did it begrudgingly or did it because, well, the Lord told me to do it again. So I'll do it again. And I wonder how much groaning there wasn't heaven by the angels every time Moses commanded and he did it, but he didn't always do it. In this case, the way he went

16:49about doing it was a nathema to Lord's will. He did it the way he was going to do it. And we don't know, but the Lord knew. And that's something about the Lord with us. It's not just our words. He knows what's in our heart. You know, it reminds me of my grandson when he was little. He says, well, that's going to leave a mark. So when he did that, you can hear the Israelites muffling in his mouth. Oh, that's going to leave a mark. Oh, funny. All right. We'll be back in just a minute. Lots of guy talk ahead. Let me know what question you have for the group. 8779332484. We'll be right back. 8779332484. We'll be right back. We'll be right back. We'll be right back. We'll be right back.

18:01And grow in their relationship and become a fully devoted follower. Click the link in the show notes or give now at myfaithradio.com. Welcome to Guy Talker, guys. Who talk? And I've got Greg B. Tom P. Jeff V. We're here ready, willing and able to take your questions. So thank you for texting them over 8779332484. Andrew wants to know when Jesus died on the cross and the darkness came over for three hours, is that recorded in history of other countries around the world? It is. I have looked at this. There are some who say that it was a solar eclipse, but it actually couldn't have been because we're midway through the month of Nissan in the Jewish calendar, which means the Jewish calendar starts with a new moon, which means there would have been a

19:01full moon, which meant the moon was opposite the direction of the sun, not in line with the sun. So we can know that it wasn't a solar eclipse number one, but there is some place I did that because I was trying to think to see if I remembered the place in history, but I have it in some note, some place, but there is a reference in history of the sun turning dark outside of scripture. Do you guys? I don't remember where that is. I've heard of it, but I can't limit hand it right now, but I'll look it up, but I agree with you, Jeff. 8779332484. Gail's got a question. I've been a BSF group leader for 12 years. Each year, we get assigned different women from different denominations. It's funny how some denominations have really never studied the whole Bible, because it seems the consistent theme when we get into the Old Testament studies, many say I have never heard this before. My question is to Tom, do the Lutherans only use a four-year electionary sermon series to teach the Bible,

20:04or do you teach the whole Council of the Bible verse by verse from Genesis to Revelation? Love your show. Have been listening for years. The electionary that I'm familiar with, and I've already thrown up with, has each Sunday, there's one of the Psalms, goes all the way through the Psalms. It goes through the Old Testament, and it goes through the gospel. Now, there's also an epistle reading with it. So there are four different categories in the electionary. Now does every church observe that? No. Some just read the gospel. And I think in many cases it's more of a time thing than is anything else. But when I grew up, they would read the Old Testament reading, they would read the epistle, and they would read the gospel. And so that was fairly common, at least among the nomination I grew up in. Today, I know like the AFLC, which I'm a part of, association of Freelerth and churches, many of them read all three of them every Sunday. You know, you bring up an interesting point because there's a wider ramification of that

21:08statement. What has bothered me for years, I'll say in the recent last decade, even, is the dearth or the lack of understanding of Scripture across the whole Bible. It's true that God will place certain books, certain verses, certain passages on your heart that you are to master because he wants you to live out of those, teach out of those, mentor out of those. But it doesn't give us an excuse for not knowing the scope of God's word. So in many cases, in not in all cases, there are certainly exceptions. I've come away thinking, boy, just get the impression that faith in many churches is a mile wide and an inch deep. This group that I'm leading on Monday nights, these 22 men, it takes you through all the fundamentals of faith, large chunks of Scripture. And repeatedly, I'm hearing Bill that I was never taught this. This is new to me. And one of the

22:10guys said, are you just giving us the best bits? You just given us the best episodes of the Bible. And I said, no, this is what the word of God has to say if you just spend time in it. So I remember an experience I had with John MacArthur when he came to speak at a church, college, I have an about this church in San Diego. And I was the adult pastor. And when he was making this presentation, he had a number of people in a building, a phone call came in from an emergency call. And Pastor Shavelin says, Greg, would you just take them over to your office so he can take the call? And I never want to waste a moment because I'm the fool. I can ask more questions than a wise man can answer. So on the way over, I asked Dr. MacArthur, I said, Dr. MacArthur, what do you think the church is going to suffer from the most over the next 10 years? He didn't even has a state. He said the death of discipleship. And what he meant by that was people understanding the ramifications, understanding the depth, the profundity, the power of the whole console of God. And because

23:14now in many cases, it's relegated to people who really want to dig in. You might want to go down to the basement where we're serving donuts and you can study the Bible in great depth. But as a number one priority other than a platitude on the wall, I'm not seeing action backing up those platitudes about discipleship or being known the whole console of God. So it just bothers me to this day. Well, the church needs to be more biblically literate period. We need to have a broader and deeper. You were saying wide and not deep. We need to have a deeper understanding of God's word. All of us do. So that's why Tom, aren't you going to start a verse by verse of Leviticus starting on Sundays? Yeah, wouldn't be a bad idea, Jeff. What time can you be there? So, but yeah, especially the New Testament and the doctrines of who we are in Christ and of salvation and of assurance, like we were talking about earlier. Yeah, we need to know this. I remember I was teaching once on Hades. We've talked about Hades on the show a number of time. And I finished

24:18the class, handed out my chart. We walked through it and prayed at the end of class. And I opened my eyes. And this guy is walking up to my podium. And he set my chart down on my desk. And he says, I've been in the church 40 years. Why have I never heard this before? And I said, I don't know. It's right there in Luke 16. I mean, Lazarus and the rich man, two sides down in Hades. But he had never heard that. And he said, this is, this is amazing. I've never understood this before. And that chart summed it all up for him. Can I tell you something, Jeff? Before I came on Guy talk, I had never heard it. Wow. I had never heard it. Yeah, the teacher and the first, yeah, you were the first one that exposed me as scripture and me being compulsive. I went back and looked up all of the scriptures that you were referred to, looked up your chart. And I in my mind, I said, I don't know why I never knew this. I was never taught this. So it was me too. I think I understand part of Islam, although, and I can from a pastoral point of view, here's the, the dangers the pastors run into. One, most people in America don't want a three-hour

25:23service on Sunday morning. They kind of rebel against that. I personally would like an hour and a half service. Sometimes I can go 75 and get away with it. But don't push that too often. But the problem is when you teach the word of God as a Christian pastor, it may be the last Sunday that somebody's coming to hear the message of Jesus. So you can preach on the Old Testament, and you can teach on the Old Testament. But you cannot devoid the Old Testament from what Jesus has then done in the New Testament. So the two always have to go together. Now you can preach the New Testament and not talk about the Old Testament and still give the gospel message. Now I'm saying, yeah, I want to know all of it. I want to teach all of it. But that's where the dilemma comes in. And I see a lot of pastors doing that. They don't take the time to delve into the Old Testament prophets or into something that happened and then show its corollary over in the New Testament. Because many of them, I'll be honest, don't have the time. Nicely done, gentlemen. So when Jesus spoke and taught, usually he would be talking anywhere

26:29from three minutes to 17 minutes. So his sermons weren't too long. And he made the most spectacular sermons of all time. So how do we teach through sermons and then do discipleship in the context of a church service? One of the things I've always thought about, I talk to Jesus about this all the time. Bill, hey, really do. You're right. He didn't preach that long. But he also worked miracles along with it. Good point. We saw people rise from the dead. We saw people heal. When was the last time somebody blind in your church regained their sight because they were prayed over or through the message? Or somebody was crippled for all their life, gets up and walks. I believe that can happen. I want that to happen. That is not common, though. The other danger is, and I hate to say it, but there are some churches and I know they're well-meaning, but it's like miracles are happening all the time. But the word isn't being preached. And as a result, people are going through the theatrics of the service and the excitement,

27:30missing the point. So I personally have for 57 years been asking Jesus, why aren't you letting me do both? Because I would love to be able to preach and see people come forward. But at the same time, people, there are sick people that have crippled problems, people that are carrying heavy burdens, are healed in the spot. I haven't seen people healed, but it's not as often as I personally would like because I'd like it every day. The Jewish culture during the time of Christ had a leg up on us and that many of them were already exposed to the Old Testament through the synagogues. And so there was a backdrop of understanding. Even if it was distorted or corrupted understanding, they were exposed to it on a regular basis if they attended synagogue. And so they had that going for them. So Jesus speaking three to 17 minutes, he would often draw from the Old Testament. I mean, even take a look at the temptation that he experienced after fasting 40 days and 40 nights,

28:32Jews explicitly from the Old Testament. So they had that basic, even if it was limited understanding already as a foundation to understand and interpret what Jesus is really saying. Yeah, I would just add one more thing to that. And I think that's all good. The one last aspect is that Jesus discipled really the 12th. He preached or proclaimed to the masses, right? But his disciples, his followers were with him more than just 30 minutes on Sunday. In fact, we don't know when he preached his sermons, the sermon on the Mounts and the Mount of Olives and the Beatitudes. We don't actually, well, we do, but and they weren't on Sunday, by the way. But his discipling was his followers. They followed him and they spent a lot of time together, not just 60 minutes on a Sunday. And that is where I think they got a lot of their teaching and how to do this thing called

29:36Christianity. And it's the, it's the, it's the, the apprentice apprentice, the master in the apprentice, right? Relationship you work with them. You do the same things that they do over and over and over again. That is discipleship. You know, when I taught on, on what does it look like to be a disciple of Jesus Christ? I made this statement. I say, you can be a believer, but not a follower. You can be a follower, but not a learner. You can be a learner, but not an apprentice. You can be an apprentice, but not a disciple. You can be a disciple, but not a disciple maker. So that it's kind of a continuum, just what you're saying, Jeff, that when you move them to those deeper walks with the Lord in a higher commitment and more application of what you're learning and passing it on to others, that takes time to develop. That's why one on one or side by side, like we've talked about before, sometimes as you're mentoring somebody or discipling them, you're a sage on the stage because you're exposing them to stuff they'd never heard before. At

30:40other times, you're a guide by the side showing them what it really looks like. And so you end up having to take them through that process and that takes time. All right, we'll be right back with lots more guide talk. Send me your questions over. The text line is open 877 9332484. We'll be right back. Welcome back to guide talk or guys who do talk. They do talk. You guys talk. We do a good job intentionally. Yeah. And I love the interaction between you and the respectful dialogue. Last week, we had a, I thought a very respectful dialogue. We talked about the differing interpretations of the bread and wine and Christian services. And I have a follow-up question this week. When they talked about this is my body. Can they please talk about John 6, 53 to 56?

31:46And it's signed a very grateful Catholic listener out of Hartford, Connecticut. I listen to the podcast for the answer. Love the panel every week. God bless you, sir. Amen. Whoever sent that in. Well, should I, why don't I read it? Okay. Please do. And then we can kind of review our discussion from last time. All right. Jesus said to them, very truly, I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life. And I will raise them up on the last day for my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in them just as I am the father sent me and I live because of the father. So the one who feeds on me will live because of me. So that's the passage we talked about it last week. And so the question

32:49was really related to the communion supper, the last supper and whether or not the bread and the wine are the actual flesh and blood of Jesus. We kind of talked about the Catholic view. That would answer that question. Yes. That's transubstantiation. We talked about Luther's view, Martin Luther's view, who said and which is still believed today. And so Tom, you kind of articulated this position that the presence of Christ is in the elements, even though they don't become actual flesh and blood. And then this was another passage that said we that came into the conversation because of a question that you got to eat his flesh. And the discussion centered around what does that mean? And how do I sum up the discussion? We had quite a debate last week that that is symbolic. I'll say my point what we had talked about. That is a symbolic reference to taking Jesus in, believing on him, receiving him. And we went up several verses actually,

33:49and we actually after this verses. So I would encourage the listener to read the rest of the chapter by the way, because it actually talks about believing on the Lord Jesus Christ and being saved. So I compared it to when Jesus said, I am the gate. I am the mana from heaven. I am the door. I am the good shepherd. I am, you know, I am the vine. I am the living water. If you knew who you were who was talking to you, you would ask me for living water. None of these things are literal. They're all symbolic. And I think they're symbolic about receiving or taking them in. What about the verse in Jeremiah 15, 16 when your words came, I ate them. And they were my joy in my heart's delight. Yeah, that's kind of another angle on this that Jesus is the word that became flesh and dwelt amongst us. And so there is a continuing metaphor throughout scripture about his words, who Jesus is the word of God incarnate, right? And we take those words in Paul and Peter, both talk about moving from milk to solid food. We eat his words. Your words

34:51came. I did eat them. And so that's another metaphor. We don't actually eat the word of God, right? We digest it. We take it in. And in the Psalms, it talks about meditating on his word. That's actually a word that's used for the cow chewing on its cut over and over again. So it's the study of his word. It's understanding his word. This is the metaphor that we're talking about here. That's another aspect of it. Very good, Bill. Yeah, one of the things that's important when you're in discipleship or you're discipling another person is to introduce them to the figures of speech that are used in the Bible. And so there are places where hyperbole or metaphors are used or analogies are used to illustrate a point, underscore a point. And I think in this case, he is really driving the point home that those of you who do not abide in me and I do not abide in you are not saved in essence. Right. And so the biting means that that we're concerned. As you

35:52point out, I think you use the word consumed by the presence of Christ in our life. How many of us as followers of Christ can actually say that? That I'm consumed by the life of Christ and that's how I choose the last thing. And then Tom jump in here, which I didn't mention is most kind of evangelical churches believe that the wafer in the bread don't become the flesh. And even kind of the more the Martin Luther view that the presence is in the bread and in the wine that it's simply a symbol, a symbolic act to eat bread and drink wine because in Corinthians it says, whenever you do this, you remember me. So we're remembering what the Lord did when he broke his body and shed his blood on the cross. So we're remembering the crucifixion. But Tom made the case last time that there's more to it than just symbolism that that you articulated the more the Lutheran view that there's the presence of the Lord is in the elements at the Lord's supper. At what point

36:57though, I would ask the question, does that happen? Does it need facilitation by a prayer or by the event? And if that's the case, who's the person sitting in this position of authority to make that event happen? So in the Catholic church, it's the mass, right? I mean, I think the priest actually goes through the ritual and it becomes the transubstitiation happens on the altar of the, is that this, is there something somewhere in the Lutheran church? I don't, I don't think there is something like that in the Lutheran church. Oftentimes, a pastor's liturgy will say by the authority of Lord Jesus Christ that pronounced his sins forgiven. So they're speaking for the Lord, but the pastor himself doesn't have that authority. It's the word that has the authority, it's the Holy Spirit that has the authority. He just pronounces what it is where others seem to believe it's the individual who's saying it has the authority and the power. But when does that conversion takes place where it moves from being simply a wafer to either in transubstitiation,

38:00being the body and blood of Christ or transubstitiation, in the mystery and the presence of Christ, what catalyzes that to move it from just being a wafer to being something more than that? Yeah, that I don't know. And nobody that I ever ever read about or talked to can explain that, wow, it's a mystery in that sense. Now, let me go a little bit further and see if I can get kicked out of Lutheran church today. Okay. Just just a slight move here. You know, guys, take care of me. You always have a hold. Thank you. I've come to the conclusion because you got three distinct views on this, these symbolic view, the concentration view, the transubstitiation view. I don't think any of the matter. If you don't get serious, who's the host? Yeah. Jesus is the host who's giving this. And if you look at as symbolic, well, the symbolic means your heart better change, get right with Jesus and follow him no matter what. If it's concentration, if it's in and through, then it better be in and through you too. And if it's the real flesh and blood as in transubstitiation,

39:03then you'll understand that you'll participate in the crucifixion of Jesus. And now you've got to live for him in a world that doesn't love Jesus. That's a great point, Tom. And Tom, as long as I have a rusted out second car, you got a place to sleep. Thank you. You heard that, Jan. I hope you heard that. And by the way, this is, this, and this is true by a lot of doctrine that we discuss here. The doctrine that gets us saved, right, is the gospel. The gospel is the power of God into salvation to whosoever believes, right? So the gospel is Jesus's death, burial, and resurrection. And when you believe on him, when you, when you all that receive him, he gets the right, gives the right to be called children of God. Now we've got a whole bunch of doctrine that God wants us to understand and be right on, but none of which is a requirement to get into heaven. Do you see what I'm saying? Of course. So it's simple faith. It's by faith that we are saved. Earlier in the hour, we were talking about salvation. A note came in. There is currently an energetic teaching that

40:05you can lose your salvation. I'm not surprised at the survey results. I've heard that teaching from various Pentecostal preachers. Yeah. I remember when I first started studying scripture 30 some years ago, this was a very important point to me. I needed to understand this because I felt in my own person that if I could lose my salvation, I need to understand under what situation, what are the characters? What could, what would I have to do to lose my salvation? Right? If it's possible. And if that's so, I needed to understand that. And so I, I set out to look at it, to study it. And I'll never forget. I would read one person. And I would be kind of convinced one way. And then I'd read the, the opposite argument. And I'd be kind of convinced that way. And I'd go back and forth. Oh, and now you know what was happening? I was being tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine. And I'll never forget. I set this issue up on a shelf in my mind. You guys have shelves in your

41:05mind at some point? And I said, Lord, this seems really important to me. And I set it there. And I said, I'm just going to keep studying scripture. And I came across Ephesians 1. Greg loves to read this verse. Do you have this verse up? Ephesians 1 13. I know you're going to have this. Will you read this verse? Because this is the verse I read. And then I'll tell you what I thought after. Yeah, this, this is a powerful, it's Ephesians 1 verses 13 and 14. And here's what it actually says. In him, you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we require possession of it to the praise of his glory. Pretty clear to me. As soon as I read that, and I'm sure I'd read it before a number of times, but this time, it jumped out at me. And what ran through my head was, of course, we're secure in our salvation.

42:08It couldn't be any other way. And over the next months, I kept finding passage after passage, after passage, that confirms this truth, that once you're born again, you're born again for all of eternity. And there's actually literally dozens of passages that declare this. So, so, so I would encourage the person, turn to God's word. He wants to teach you by his word, by his spirit. And, and God will teach you. The whole idea of losing your salvation, if somebody says it, those who preach that rarely agree on what the conditions are for loss of salvation. And so what we do when we say that, we diminish what Christ said on the cross. It is finished. I'm not going to be dying a second time or a third time for your sins. It is finished. And the thief on the cross recognizes that when he's told he's to be with Christ and paradise. All right, we'll be right back after

43:12a short break, but I am waiting for your question texted over 877-933-2484. We'll be right back. Welcome is a word said universally all over the world. Every language on the planet has their own way of making a friendly greeting. At Faith Radio, when we welcome, we really mean it. Learn more about us by requesting a free Welcome Pack gift. Text the word Welcome to 877-933-2484, or visit myfaithradio.com to request your Welcome Pack today. And a warm welcome to you. Hello and welcome to Guy Talk or guys who talk. I've got Greg V. Tom P. Jeff V. And we're here and we want your questions. So whatever you have, send it over on the text line 877-933-2484.

44:18We got an idea. What is it? Yeah, we are talking over the break without you guys. I know. So just this assurance of salvation issue is so big. We just wanted to touch on one more aspect before you get to the next question. Go ahead. So over the break, we were just talking about the some of the things that happen when you believe in our saved and they are things like you're sealed with the Holy Spirit as you described and read in Ephesians 1. Your granted eternal life, you're given the right to be called a child of God, you're reconciled to God, you're redeemed, you're justified, you're made righteous, right? All of these things that you're forgiven, you're born again, all these things happen, the moment that you believe in our saved. If you could lose your salvation, every single one of those would have to be undone. And do you ever read anywhere in the scripture about someone being un-forgiven, unborn again?

45:19No unjustified. No unjustified. If you adoption papers don't work anymore. Unadopted. Great. Stopped. Yeah, these are just foreign concepts in scripture. You don't come across them anywhere. Can I go in step further for the fun of it? Do you think that car is ready for me to do? Oh yeah. Oh yeah. I'm feeling better. From my pastoral point of view, and I've heard this a lot, a lot of people. The people are not looking, in most cases, for a theological answer to what saved always saved. They're not looking to, what does the Bible say about? Because they've got guilt or shame they're curing. They've done something deep inside that has alienated in their heart, their prayer life, their worship life. Something's wrong there. And so what I've learned to do over the years is I will let people talk on and on and on about this and tell me, oh, you know, I think I've blown it. The Lord's not going to, you know, save me. He doesn't want me in this thing. I usually come back and say, okay, the issue is not how you feel about it. The issue is how do you feel about Jesus right now? Tell me where you're standing with Jesus. Are you trying to get

46:20away from him? So you're worried about this once they've always saved. Are you carrying guilt over something you shouldn't have done? And you're not openly repenting about it because he says he's consistent and he's not going to change. Why are you worried about that? And it's been an interesting for me because the discussion rarely stays on getting the theological answer and it starts to go to the heart where I've had people say to me, all right, I've been having an affair and my wife doesn't know, but Jesus knows and I know he's going to throw me out. And my response is, you know, he died for you. Your question now is, do you want to walk with him? Like you're talking about Greg and be his disciple or do you want to limp into the kingdom of God? I mean, that anyway to get in is good. But I mean, what do you want to do? At that point then, you need to be ready to confess that to your wife, accept the consequences and repent because the thing that's most important is for you to be right with Jesus right now. And when people do that, I've seen marriages restored. Now, I can't say all. I wish I had 100% bad in record, but I've seen

47:25men restored. And the biggest thing is a year later, people come back to me and say, you don't know how close I was to take my own life. But that helped me get over the hump. So I agree with what we're saying. I don't think Jesus changed his mind. I think most of us though don't know how to walk while in it. Now you're back to your one inch deep and a mile wide. We don't have the depth on what it means to be a disciple of Jesus. That's a really good point. I think there's a lot of Christians walking out there that think that they need to walk on pins and needles with God. You know, that he's they're never good enough. He's never going to really accept them. But see, that's where I'd argue that theology does matter. Oh, it does, man. I'm sorry. I didn't mean it that way. Yeah. In this way, because what we believe is true, doctrinally, is going to affect how we see God. And if you don't believe that you're really accepted by God through faith in Jesus Christ, if you're not all the way there, well, then you're you're going to have the shame that you were talking about in the guilt and the doubt that you were talking about and so on. But if you

48:26understand that when you believe you've obeyed the Lord God, you've been reconciled to him. You've been brought near to him. You've been made one with him. And God is so pleased with you. You are completely accepted. He'll never be disappointed with you. You are one with him. Now, does he have a calling on your life? Absolutely. He does. But you're saved. And you are accepted by God. He was scholars have said in the past over and over again. It's not a belief until you act on it. And so somebody can say to you like in a counseling session, Tom, well, yeah, I believe that. Well, are you acting on it as if you believe it? I know. I mean, I can believe that a chair exists. But the proof in the pudding is if I have the courage enough to sit in the chair and make sure and and believe that it's going to hold my weight. So I have to take action on my belief or others, just mental affirmation. Sure. And as we've talked about before,

49:27the Greek word for belief is to stay trust in, rely on and cling to and not just mental affirmation. All right. Fast hour. We've got one more hour just ahead. I still have some questions from hour one. I will get to an hour or two. So make sure you stay with us or at least check out the podcast. Also in March this month through April 19th, you can share faith with the young people in your life with a free copy of the 100% Jesus by Jason Hammerberg with kid friendly explanations about Jesus's life and how we can live for him. It's a great conversation starter in discipleship book. So you can request your free copy by texting Jesus to 877-933-2484 or on the faith radio app. Send your questions in. We'll be right back with hour two. Thanks for listening. Programming like this is made available through your support.

50:31Information available at myfaithradio.com. Coming this Easter, an epic four-part audio podcast series, The Christ. My hour has not yet come. My son, your hour was written before time. Starring David O'Yellowow, who claims to be a king, Tom Pelfrey. My kingdom is not of this world. Paul Walter Hauser. He is the light, the true light. With narration from John Rees, Davies, and Patricia Heaton, The Christ, wherever you listen to podcasts. Bart Millard, lead singer of Mercy Me, says there was a season when his faith felt anything but strong. Literally, I was hanging by a thread like even the stuff as simple as God is good all the time. All the time God was good. Like saying these things, you know, I didn't believe that. That's what would get the biggest amen if I said it from a crowd. So if I did the right things on the outside, no one would interfere with the inside. In one of the hardest times, Bart learned God's love is secure. And so is his identity in Christ. Here, Bart Millard's story on this week's episode of The Unfolding on Apple and Spotify.

51:36And at myfaithpodcasts.com.