Gospel on Linen?

0:00All the miracles that Jesus did, everything had witnesses. His healings, raising people from the dead, walking on the water, calming storms, feeding the multitude, everything had witnesses. Hey, I'm Guy Powell and welcome to the next episode of the backstory in the Shroud of Turin. And of course, if you haven't already done so, please go to GuyPowell.com and sign up for more of these episodes and podcasts. As you know, I'm the author of The Only Witness, which is a Christian historical fiction, tracing a possible history of the Shroud over the last two millennia. Today, we're speaking again with Ruspray Altman. He has some fantastic news. He's got a whole new book out. It's called Beneath the Surface. And it's a nice, easy read to really get some great stuff, really great stuff. And about the Shroud, but also about Christ and the Shroud is potentially the fifth gospel and then connecting it all over to different parts of the Bible.

1:15Really, just a great read and will help to understand more about what Price suffered and what his death and resurrection means to us. So Russ, welcome, so good to have you. Before we continue, I want to briefly tell you about my new book, The Only Witness. It's a work of Christian historical fiction rooted in years of serious research into the Shroud of Turin. The story traces what may have happened to the Shroud across 2,000 years of history through war, secrecy, faith and survival. It puts you right into the story. If you're interested in the historical mystery behind the Shroud and it's possible journey over the last two millennia, you can learn more and order your copy at GuyPowell.com or on Amazon. Now, let's get back to the podcast. Thanks, guys. It's great to be with you again. Yeah, absolutely. So what was your impetus for writing this book? Why did you put this book together beneath the surface? Well, you know, beneath the surface, you know, when the context of that phrase in the context of this book is kind of looking beyond the stuff that we normally talk about with the Shroud.

2:28Because, you know, we all know that it's the most analyzed artifacts in the world. It's been subjected to thousands of hours of scientific analysis and that stuff's fascinating. And it's fun to review, you know, but at the same time, you know, Thomas Aquinas, the great theologian of the Catholic Church 13th century, he looked at science and theology as being two sides of the same coin. And we've thoroughly looked at that one side of the coin, but we rarely venture on to the other side of the coin is because we tend to be afraid that we're going to lose our objectivity or something. You know, but, but, you know, I mean, it's like, you know, you really can't dance around the issue all that much because the Shroud purports to be the brochure out of Jesus. You know, not, not Caesar, you're Jesus. And so I mean, I mean, he's the central character of civilization or our calendar is, is, you know, based on his birth.

3:36And so, you know, so my, the approach in beneath the surface is what if the Shroud is authentic? What if it really is? How does it fit with apologetics, with prophecy, with scripture, with theology? And you'll, and you'll be amazed at how well it fits and it's, and, and because there are, in fact, when you look at it from an apologetic argument, the Shroud is front and center. I mean, think about this in the gospel narrative, I like John's version. It's a little bit more complete. You know, Mary Madeline goes to the tomb, found that the stone is already rolled aside from the entrance. She peaks in, sees that the body's gone, runs to find the apostles and says, and I quote, someone has taken our Lord's body out of the tomb, and I don't know where they put him.

4:44She thinks the body's stolen, so stop right there. So the empty tomb is not enough to prove a resurrection. We always talk about the empty tomb, but that's not, would that was not enough for Mary to believe that Jesus had risen. Now Peter and John run back down to the tomb. John lets everyone know he got there first. Then Peter goes, so John peaks inside, sees the linen cloth lying there, but he doesn't go in. He waits for Peter. Peter finally gets there. He goes straight inside that tomb, sees the linen cloth lying there, then John goes in, and he also notices the linen cloth lying there and believes. Well, this is an enormous thing because it begs the question of, you know, Mary thinks the body's stolen. John goes in, sees the linen cloth lying there and believes. Well, that's a huge difference. I mean, so it begs the question of what did John and Peter see, or at least John for sure, that Mary didn't see, and obviously something specifically related to the burial shroud.

5:55And so the fact that we have to drill down on this is because John then, he becomes the first of the apostles to believe in the resurrection, and that belief was based on the evidence of the linen cloth lying there in the tomb. Well, that's got to be significant. I mean, God doesn't do things by a happen chance. And so you have to ask yourself, you know, well, was it only meant for Peter and John, or was it meant for the whole world, throughout all generations? And so, and I always like to follow up this argument, if you'll, this apologetic argument, with taking us to Acts 1, verse 3, very first chapter of Acts, verse 3, after his suffering, he showed himself to be alive through many convincing proofs. Now, most of those proofs were all post-resurrection appearances of Jesus, but the first proof was the linen cloth lying there in the tomb. And so why then would we assume that the cloth was just thrown away, burned, buried, discarded? My goodness, this was the first proof causing John to believe in the in the resurrection. And that's it.

7:21I mean, that's the whole thing, Paul says, if the, if the resurrection is not true, then our faith is in vain. So, so belief in the resurrection is central to the Christian faith. That means the shroud itself is central to the Christian faith. That's kind of a big thought. And it's, you know, it is easily, it is dismissed by our, by, you know, by my most evangelicals and Protestants, because they all gravitate to, you know, the John Calvin who posed the argument, well, you know, you think something as significant as Jesus, leaving his image on this burrow shroud that that would warrant a mention in the gospel somewhere. It's a, it's a reasonable objection, objection for sure, but not when you understand the tenor of the times. What was that? You know, when, when, when, when were the gospels written 20 to 30 years after the events in question? What was happening? They already killed James in 44. They tried to kill Peter if he escaped with the help of an angel.

8:24So persecution was in high swing. No one is going to write into their, into their gospel account of what happened, where who has the shroud or even if the shroud existed past past resurrection day. You know, so it's not unreasonable. The fact that the gospels are silent on it. So then if we fast forward past constant team, you know, he, with the edict of toleration in 311, legalizing Christianity, we get to the sixth century, and we look at, and we look at something called the, the mosaic right of, of Holy Week. This is, this is liturgy that is brought to Spain in the sixth century by a group of Arab Catholics. And how, and how do they translate John chapter 20 verses 5 and 6? It says Peter and John ran to the tomb and saw the recent imprints of the dead and risen man on the, on the linens. Well, my goodness, that's not in our translation of the scripture, but that's how they chose to, to translate John chapter 20 verses 5 and 6.

9:34Why would they do that unless it was based on something that they had seen, had knowledge of or perhaps even passed down through oral tradition. So that's an enormous piece of evidence indicating that there was knowledge of the shroud and its mysterious image in the early centuries. And so kind of directly answering John Calvin's, you know, objection. And it's so, so I think it's clear to me, at least, of course, you know, you and I and some of some others we've been studying this for a long time. So certainly the, the shroud is front and center for us. But, but it's interesting. The shroud is front and center for the whole gospel message. It all hinges on not just the empty tomb, but the, but the vacant linen cloth. And so, so that's kind of an interesting apologetic argument as to, you know, and then.

10:39So anything else jump out of you when you, when you. Oh, yeah. Yeah, quite a bit. And yes, that mosaic text or translation of John was kind of interesting. And, and then you had a couple of other ones there, but you also had this concept of the principle of three witnesses. So tell us about that. Well, you know, the, in the, in the book of, of course, you wrote the book called the only witness, the, in the book of acts, it says that God does not leave himself without a witness. And it's, and but then in Deuteronomy 1915, it says that the, that the truth of any matter is established by the testimony of two or three witnesses. Now, it's interesting that of all the miracles that Jesus did, everything had witnesses. His healings raising people from the dead, walking on the water, calming storms, feeding the multitude, everything had witnesses.

11:41But the ultimate miracle, the one that established him definitively as the son of God, the resurrection had no eyewitnesses. And, you know, there's a reason because there was a big stone put in front of the entrance, but, but it's, it's kind of, it kind of seems to get contradicts God's own rules, right? And so the, so now that you have to begin to a little searching here and say, well, maybe we're not talking about human witnesses. You know, what if there's, you know, so we always talk about the empty tomb. Sure, that's would be witness number one. Anyone goes to Jerusalem, they're, they're going to go to the church of the Holy Sepulchre and see where Jesus had, had, had risen. And, but that's not enough. And so the second witness must be the linen cloth lying there in the tomb, causing John to become the first of the apostles to believe in the resurrection.

12:44It's a big piece of evidence. And, but then there is, there is a, there is a third piece of evidence. And that is in John's Gospel referred to as the, as the napkin or the, or the, or the face cloth that was about his face rolled up lying in a place by itself. And so now what is this? Well, you know, if you look back on on Good Friday, Jesus, you know, he, he gives up his spirit at three in the afternoon. You know, now he's dead. And he's, and he's an absolute mess. You know, just stuff coming out of his nose, his mouth, he's got blood cascading from his hair and a crown of thorns. And no doubt one of the women, I would think, would have gone up to the Centurion and said, you know, may we cover his face? And he was, he said, yeah, go ahead and be quick about it. And so they put a little stool up to the, up to the side of the cross, right? Step up there, pin this cloth around his face, pin it in the back.

13:47And it would have been a tradition to cover the face of the dead. And I think especially someone so brutalized as, as Jesus. You know, I mean, here he was this, this, this beloved man who, you know, people flocked to hear him and see him and all of a sudden to see him like this, you know, you would want to cover that. And this cloth would have, would have remained on his face until they got him to the tomb. Then they would have removed that cloth, rolled it up, placed it next to the body because that would not have been allowed to stay on his face. It was just covered with, with, with plural effusion and blood. It was just a mess. And, and so, and so then they would have taken the body, you know, laid him on the lower part of the shop, take that upper part. Remember, it's 14 feet long. And so, but only three and a half feet wide. So you take this long narrow cloth and you wrap it over the man lengthwise. But that, but that, that Sudarium, that face cloth would have been rolled up, placed next to the body because it had blood on it. Anything with blood had to remain with the body.

14:51And then we believe that this is the Sudarium of Oviedo, Oviedo, Spain, done a lot of research on it, trying to correlate the, the, the pattern of plural fluid and blood stains. And, you know, about 120 points of congruent. So it's, I think the, I think it's, it's, it's pretty, pretty solid that this cloth is associated with the shroud. And so, and so there's your three witnesses right there, the empty tomb, the, the linen shroud itself and the napkin that was, that was, that was rolled up in a place by itself. And it's, and so I think that's kind of interesting is because human witnesses would all be dead. But these witnesses, they all exist today. They all testify today. You, you, you can go see, well, maybe, maybe now's not a good time to go to Israel, but, but the next time they have peace over there, you can go see the church of the Holy Sepulchre. You can go to Turin, the next time I have an exhibition, see this route. And I think they display the Sudarium every year. And it's, so, so all three testify to, to this day. I think that's, so, so, so God, you know, I mean, he fulfills his word.

16:10Well, when I read that, I was thinking, well, what other witnesses, you know, could there be when I first thought about it? And one was, and nobody knows exactly what happened at the moment of resurrection. There may have been, you know, an enormous amount of radiation light or other kinds of radiation. And so that may have been very high, a lot of energy. And if you were near that, then, you know, you might have been killed just by that. It might have been, you know, affected you or whatever. And so, you know, maybe that's one of the reasons why there weren't any actual human witnesses to that moment of the resurrection. Whereas what you, you know, you're talking about is then after the resurrection, what things could be potentially thought of as witnesses. And one of the ones was, and I haven't looked back, but I do recall that the Roman guards were turned to stone. And I do recall, I think that one of those guards was, was named Licinius. And he then, he then converted. And so he's potentially also not necessarily a direct human witness, a non-Jewish non-Christian witness, which, you know, until he converted, then here he, you know, here he is, he's probably indifferent to the whole situation. And all of a sudden, he, he experiences this, this event that took place.

17:37And then he, he possibly converts. And the other one that maybe is also taking place today is the Holy Fire and the Holy Sepulch, Holy Sepulchur Church. And that takes place, you know, and well documented, that takes place, you know, once a year around Easter time. And which is then, you know, potentially as well, not necessarily a witness, so to speak, but a clear evidence that something happened. Something took place there. And so I was, you know, trying to think of, and there might even be others that don't come to mind at the moment, but those could also be the fourth and fifth and maybe even, you know, the, I don't know, the sixth or seventh witness. Yeah, the Holy Fire is certainly intriguing because it's characterized by a flame that doesn't give off any heat. And it's, or at least not for the first 5th, 10 or 15 minutes. And so it's like, well, what kind of fire is this? And so you, you look in the biblical account, you have the, you have Moses and the burning bush, you have a fire, the bush isn't burning.

18:44I'm Pentecost, you have the tongues of fire resting on the shoulders of everyone who is there and they, they weren't rushed to the hospital, you know, it's, you know, so, you know, so there's some kind of a biblical precedent for it. And it's usually symbiated as symbolic of the presence of the Holy Spirit. And, but the, but you know, it's interesting, you know, you know, when you look at the science of the shroud, you know, we know that the, that the burns fluorescent because they're the result of heat. And, but the image, even though it is oftentimes characterized in looking like a faint scorch, we know that it's not the result of heat because the image does not fluoresce. So now we're looking for, for something that, that has some of these qualities in this light, you know, when is a, when is a scorch, not a scorch, you know, I'm, you know, when it's, well, you know, maybe, maybe holy fire is a clue. And it's, I'm not saying it's an answer, but I think it's a clue.

19:47And so, because we don't, none of us will ever know what really went on inside that tomb except it costs the soldiers to fall as dead men. And, you know, and so the, yeah, so what else in your, in your review of the book? Absolutely. Well, the other one, of course, it was the, the side of Jonah and the story of Jonah and Jonah being in the, in the Leviathan or the whale or whatever you want to call it. For three days and then gets, I don't know, somehow escapes or whatever that mechanism was, and then based on that escape, of course, he goes to Nineveh and he converts the whole city. And he's mad because because God converted, you know, let them be converted. But in any case, you know, you, you referenced the sign of Jonah as it relates to the shroud. So tell us a little bit about that. Well, you know, I've, you know, there are different opinions on this and it is a strange piece of passage of Scripture, you know, with these, these, these Jewish leaders were, were come, come up to Jesus.

21:00And, and they were, and they were trying to catch him in a trap and they, and they said, show us a sign. Jesus, you know, like show us something really cool. Turn that dog into a donkey. You know, it's, you know, it's, and, and Jesus says, a wicked and adulterous generation shall not receive a sign. But only that of the prophet Jonah. And just as Jonah was in the belly of the whale for three days and three nights. And so what was he saying then? He's saying, listen, the only sign you're going to get is my death, burial and resurrection. That's it. And if that's not enough, then nothing's going to be enough. And so that was, that was his answer. And so now, and when you look at how the gospel was, was preached all through first century, it was the resurrection constantly, every all the time they would preach the resurrection. And it's, and the, and so, you know, and, and remember after Pentecost, these, these guys were imbued with an amazing amount of power. I mean, and, and, and authority as well.

22:13And so wherever they went, they were miracles happening. They were laying on hands. People were getting set free and delivered and healed. And in my personal opinion, they didn't need the shroud. You know, I think the shroud quickly went into hiding because there would have been a search and destroy mission on the part of the Romans or the Jews to find it and destroy it. And so I know there's different views as to where it went, but I can tell you, it didn't remain in Jerusalem for very long. And I think, and I think it was, it was, it was taken out of the city, ultimately hidden away inside a wall. I think probably kept in a, in a, in a clay pot, much like the Dead Sea Scrolls. And you just kind of folded and rolled and placed in a clay pot. And it was walled up inside a wall. And maybe a desa, maybe Antioch, I think a desa. And so, and then it was forgotten about. And then, and then kind of rediscovered in 525. Well, you know, 525, now we're 200 years past Constantine. It's safe to be a Christian now. And so this, this cloth with this mysterious image, it becomes known as the, as the true likeness of Christ not made by human hands. And of course, from this point on, all of your icon images of Jesus change.

23:38They changed to conform to, to the characteristics of the true likeness, long hair, full beard, large hollow eyes, long flattened nose, stylistically looking very similar to what we'd see on the shroud. And so, and so we would tend to think that the true likeness is the same thing as the shroud. And it's the, but now my point in saying that is that, you know, there were, there were 300 years of persecution, you know, leading up to the edict of toleration. And I'm sure there were still some rogue elements that were still persecuting Christians. And so God providentially hides the shroud in a wall, waiting for it for the opportune time for it to be revealed, which just happened to be the early 6th century. And, and I think that had it been revealed any time prior to that, it probably would have been destroyed. But the church had to get on its feet. It had to establish itself.

24:44It had to get beyond all this persecution and get to a place where there was some kind of organization. And that's when the shroud and that's when God says, okay, we can, we can, we can, we can reveal it now. And I think that's, that's, so I don't think at all that the shroud was used as a vehicle of evangelization in the early centuries. I don't, I think there would have been way too much fear that it would be destroyed. I think the anointing that these apostles had, the power and authority that God gave them, post Pentecost was all anyone needed. And it's, but as these apostles passed away, you know, then, then, you know, the, you, you get to the point where perhaps it's time for the shroud to be revealed. And so, you know, what, what I believe is that, and you'll see this in the book, is that, is that God has a dip, has a purpose for the shroud in every epoch of time.

25:47So in the, in the early church, when they're battling paganism, they're battling narcissism, you know, here they are saying that God himself has come down and become a human being, the incarnation Christmas. And it's, and so, and so, you know, so incarnation was an enormous concept that God would become a man. He would, he would become one of us and that this God man would subject himself to be crucified. I mean, it's like, people, I can't compute this, you know, I'm, I'm used to worshiping the sun God or, or whatever the gods that, you know, that, that were common to, to various pagan cultures. And so, and so this then, so the, you know, so with the revelation of the, of the true likeness, you know, began all of these icon images, you have icon painters. And so you have this, these, these icon images of, of Jesus, they proliferated throughout the Eastern church.

26:57And it's, and they were all based on the, on the true likeness. And so the question is, well, if God has a son, what does he look like? Well, gee, I just happen to have a picture right here. The, you know, so, you know, so, you know, and it's like, wait a minute. God's don't die. God, exactly. And that's why God raised Jesus from the dead after three days, because you're right. God's don't die. And it's, and so the, I, so I think that the, so the big part in the early church was the incarnation that God would become one of us. And, and, but then, as you know, when looking at the history, it moves, it moves to Constantinople in 944, and then stolen in 1204 by the, by the French during the fourth crusade. And, and then goes underground for a while. And then, and then reappears in, in L'Aurée, France in 1356 as property of Jeffrey Disharnay, the most valorous night of the realm.

28:02And, and now, this is really interesting, because now, now the shroud takes on a different role is because 1356, when the shroud was revealed and displayed in that, in that collegiate church in, in L'Aurée, France, this was only four years after the black death had decimated half the European population. I mean, they were just now starting to, starting to wander out of their homes, wondering if, if, if they're going to be safe or if they're going to be nailed by this, by this plague. And so now, so now there, there, so the shroud goes is put on display. People come from all around to, to venerate and, and this, this cloth, because now, instead of, see, during the early centuries, the focus was on the face, the, the face image, the true likeness, the Mendelian.

29:06And, but now the focus becomes on the, from this full length cloth, revealing the entire crucifixion of what Jesus endured. And it's like, so here's an embattled population. They've all lost all kinds of family members through this plague. And, you know, the, the 14th century is one of the deadliest centuries on record characterized by, by, by war, famine, plague. I mean, poverty. It was an awful time to be alive. And here's this shroud comes up and almost says, it's almost like a, a beacon of hope that, that, that, that God is with us in our suffering. Jesus suffered with us. He understands our suffering. But then in this, but in this, there's also great hope, hope for the eternal future. And so, so I think the message of the shroud transitions from the incarnation to the crucifixion.

30:06And it's, and you can tell that by all the sacred art that permeated the 14th century, you know, it's all crucifixion based. And it's the, but then we moved into the modern era. We moved to 1898 when it's photographed for the very first time. And the, and that mysterious photo negative image is, is, is revealed. So for some reason, the shroud looks a much clearer, much more lifelike in a photo negative, meaning that the images on the cloth itself must be a negative image to start with. Well, this launches the shroud into the realm of scientific inquiry. And it's something that really no other relic has, has ever done. I mean, it's, and what's intriguing to me is that the, is that the first people that, that tackle these shroud are your medical experts, because they want to answer the question of, you know, they create life-sized replicas based on, based on what they want to do.

31:10Based on, based on, on the, on the photography. And it's, and they answered the question of, you know, could this be the image of a real human being who died from these wounds? That's what they want to know. Is it possible? And the definitive verdict from all of the medical experts that have studied it is, yeah. I mean, from, from, from, from Barbay, to Zigabay, to Bucklin. I mean, Bucklin, he, he did 25,000 autopsies. The guy knows what a dead man looks like. And it's, and so the, so, you know, so this appears to be the image of a real human being who died from these wounds. And now we, so if I'm going to juggle two things here, is because you see, I think that the shroud is a gospel. It is a gospel unto itself. It's the first gospel, causing John to believe, right? I think it's a gospel written on linen, speaks every language, doesn't need to be translated. It's speaks to every level.

32:14Five-year-old can look at it and say, look, mommy, look daddy, there's Jesus, you know, a teenager can get all involved in the science of it. But then the academic intellectual can take it as deep as you want to go. So it's an intriguing thing when you look at it as a, as a, as a first gospel, as a gospel written on linen. And Pope John Paul, the second, he even calls it a mirror of the gospel. And it's, but, but when you look at it, you know, I'm going to get back to my original thought here, hopefully. Is that when you look at what a gospel is, you know, it's a, it's a strange word, you know, you know, my gospel, the gospel, you know, people wonder, you know, is it the Bible? Is it the New Testament? Is it the four gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John? Well, actually the gospel is pretty well defined in first Corinthians 15 verses 1 through 8, where Paul talks about, you know, you know, if anyone should depart from my, from the gospel that I have, my gospel, as he says, you know, it's what, which is what he received from the Lord.

33:24And so, so what is the gospel that Jesus suffered, that he died, and he was buried, and he rose again from the dead. And he was witness to, by all these different people he mentions, who witnessed him after, after his resurrection, including himself, finally, you know, he on his road to Damascus and a blinding flash of light. And so, so what is the gospel? It's the testimony to the suffering, death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus, and that he was witness to, after his resurrection. So what does the shroud do? So when we look at how the shroud got into the modern era, first tackled by the medical experts, right, could this be the image of a man who died from these wounds? Yes, and the man is dead, with evidence of rigamortis, with evidence of, of the side wound, with a clear separation of blood and blood serum, that only occurs when the heart is no longer beating, and the blood is no longer circulating.

34:41So the man is clearly dead, but then you have this inexplicable image that, so we have, so we on the shroud, we have an image of a man in death through the blood stains, we have a man, we have an image of a man coming back to resurrection life through this, this incredible image we see, with you know, as well, you know, you know, superficial and good and all that, but it's this incredible image, this has been determined not to work with the artist, it's not painted on there, and it's, and so, so you, so this, but then also, part of the gospel is the fact that it's witness, that Jesus is witness to, after his resurrection. He has all these post-resurrection appearances, well, this is exactly what happens with the shroud, is that we too, you know, 2000 years later, can see the, the fact that this cloth testifies to the life, suffering, death, and resurrection of Jesus, and we are witnesses to it.

35:50It is basically, he's making an appearance to us today through the shroud, and it's, so I think that the shroud is a gospel unto itself, and it's, and so I think, you know, I think that's just a really, I think that's a big thought, and it's, you know, the, because, you know, the other thing I talk about is, is where John Paul, he, he talks about how the shroud is a mirror of the gospel, which is a really beautiful characterization, I really like that a lot. But the interesting thing about a mirror, is that a mirror can also magnify, and so, you know, your big telescopes are all just mirrors, and it's, and so, and so, I, I think the reason the shroud exists as a first gospel, is because, because when you, when you read the gospel account of what happened to Jesus, it's very understated, you know, then pilot had Jesus scourged.

36:59That's it. I mean, but on the, you know, how about a little more detail, you know, but no, I mean, but on the shroud, we see all the detail. We see the massive scourging all over the body, you know, and then, and then pilot had Jesus crucified. That's it, you know, but it's like, but on the shroud, we see the nail wounds in the wrist, we see the blood on the arms, we see the, we see the thumbs drawn in. We see the, you know, it's, we see the nail wounds in the feet, you know, the, and then, and then they platted a crown of thorns, and they put us, you know, and, and Ron has had it and mocked him, you know, king of the Jews, you know, it's like, but when you look at the shroud, you see over 30 puncture wounds all around the head from, from where this massive clump of thorns probably, you know, beat into his head with sticks. And it's, so we see the, so the, where, where the, where the scripture is kind of understated, it's revealed through the shroud.

38:11And I think purposely so is because God didn't want to waste all this time describing, if you will, the, the, the horrific, you know, going on of a terrible public execution. And it's, so I, so I think that that's now there's, there's my favorite one too, the classic understatement. Well, I think, I think this is in Romans. He says, yeah, I think it was in Romans. Yeah, it says, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. I'm saying, you know, that's a little weak, you know, I mean, it's, you know, Christ died for us. I mean, you see, the interesting thing is, if all Jesus needed to do was to die for us, well, why not just get stuck through with a sword or have your head cut off like John the Baptist. Why did Jesus have to go through this enormous? Yeah, let me stop here right there. And we'll talk about that because I thought that was just a wonderful thought as well.

39:17But, you know, one of the things that you mentioned was, you know, how, how the, the shroud represents kind of the life, death and resurrection. Well, the life to me is that, you know, when you think about God sent his son in the form of a man. And the image on the shroud is in the form of a man. It's not in the form of some, you know, alien, weird creature that you'd see on Star Trek, right? It's in the form of a man. It's got, you know, the image there has, has a beard, it has a nose, has eyes, has a chin, you know, has everything and it's, it's perfectly, you know, anatomically correct. It's not like, you know, it was drawn by somebody where the legs were too long or the feet were too short or something like that. And so then to your point that not only does it show the death and resurrection, but it shows that he, that God sent his only begotten son as a man. Number one, and then of course, like you said, that you could see the suffering that he went through and what Pontius Pilate, you know, did.

40:23So anyway, yes, it's definitely Paul Romans 58. I have that written down here is one of my thoughts while we were yet sinners Christ died for us. And, and then as you talk about it, and I'll let you go on now, how the shroud fills in the blank, so to speak with, with what is actually behind that, that, that wonderful verse from Paul. Yeah, because I mean, it's like, you know, I mean, it's a great verse, but it's like, it's leaving a lot on the table. You know, it's like when, when, you know, while we were yet sinners Christ died for us, you know, so it, so the question is, if, if all Jesus had to do was die, I mean, like I said, I mean, he could have arranged with the father to say, and at a certain time, they're going to, they're going to ram me through a sword, and then I'll be dead. But that's not how it happened. So God, the father and God, the son were in agreement with what had to happen. And, and I mean, this was not a surprise for Jesus that he was going to be crucified.

41:29It was prophesied in Isaiah, 700 years prior. So it begs the question of why would, why would, why would God the father and God the son, why would Jesus allow himself to be subjected to the most horrific form of execution ever devised by man. It's not just a form of execution, but, but, but, but a method of torture and, and, and just ab total humiliation. And ultimately, you die by your, by your life, just gradually ebbing away until you finally succumb to death, you know, six, seven, eight hours after, after initially being nailed to the cross, in the case of Jesus. It was six hours, and it's, so I mean, so you begs the question, why, why was all that necessary? Well, it has to do with the first part of that verse, why we were yet sinners, open that up. You don't want to look in that box, because there's some ugly stuff in that, in that box called sinners, you know, the worst, the worst of the most vile of the vile.

42:40I mean, you know, just, you know, I just can't even talk about it. And yet, yet, but, but you see, this is so incredible, is that when you think that sin needed to be atoned for, it needed to be paid for. That's what Jesus came to do. He came to basically pay to atone for the sins of man. And so, which is a beautiful thought, because that means that some inner city gang banger who's been involved in gang and mob activity and murders and burglaries and rapes and all of a sudden, you know, somebody preaches the gospel at him. And, and he gets drawn to the, to the message of love and forgiveness, but then he, but then he's stopped in his tracks by his own thoughts that said, how can God forgive me? Because I've done this and I've done this and I've done this. And the answer is, it's paid for. It's paid for. That's what the cross is all about.

43:48That's why the crucifixion had to be as extreme as it was to literally atone for the worst of the worst of human depravity. And, and so this is a beautiful understanding. And, and when you think of how that manifests as love. So, for instance, I like there's a little chapter in the book called that God is the God of extremes. You know, and you know, we, we, we launched the Hubble telescope, put it out in orbit. So, scientists thought we'd find the edge of the universe, never found it. So, we put out the James Webb telescope, put that a million miles out in orbit. And, and now, and now we're finding galaxies that shouldn't exist messing with our cosmology. We're having the, we're having to rewrite the big bang theory. And, and, and, and it just, it just goes to show that, that, that, that God is bigger than we could ever imagine.

44:55And, and it, but then also, let's go in the opposite direction. Let's, let's, let's go into our human genetics into the, you know, in 1953, we discovered the double helix DNA molecule. 2003, we mapped the entire human genome. And, or least we think we did, we didn't, we, we got most of it, but there's still millions and millions of base pairs that we're discovering right now that have genetic function. And, and so, you know, when we realize that our DNA, every cell of our body has DNA and, and it's packed with 3.3 billion lines of genetic code. It's, it's almost like God leaves his calling card. It leaves his business card. And on the back it says, still not sure, you know, I mean, it's like for all the materialists in the world that want to believe that this evolve from a random process. You know, so the, and so when we look at the God of extremes, and then, and then, of course we have examples from the Bible, which I use, you know, the feeding of the multitude of, you know, you know, it's getting late in the day, got 10,000, 5,000 men and a bunch of women and children on the hill. Jesus, I think we should send them home.

46:13They've got to get started to get hungry. You feed them. What do you mean we feed them? We only have a boy's lunch. It's it. And so he has everyone sit down and you know, the story he gets passes the loaf and the fish and they keep going and going and going until there are 12 baskets left over. I mean, and then, and you know, on the third post resurrection appearance of Jesus, you know, their Peter, James and John are all disillusioned. I mean, Jesus is dead. It's probably Saturday in between, you know, when he was killed and versus when he was risen. And so they don't know what to do. They don't even know how to do is do what they always do is go fishing. And so they went out fishing or a fishing all night, catch nothing. They come to the shore. There's this man on the beach that says, throughout your net for a catch, he's saying, what is he to what do you think we've been doing all night? You know, nevertheless, we'll do it. And so they threw the net out. Of course, you know, the story, the ship or the boat almost sank from so many fish. And so they knew who the man was immediately. So these are examples. But, but you see, where this comes back to the shroud is that you can look at it.

47:34You can look at these examples of the Hubble and the James Webb telescope. You can look at examples of what we're finding out in the in the genetic code and come to believe that there must be a creator that this stuff can't have happened through a random process. But you see, that alone doesn't mean that Jesus sent his son and that God sent his son into the world to die on a cross and rise again from the dead. That's where the shroud comes in. The shroud testifies to this central truth of Christianity that isn't necessarily discerned simply because of creation. Creation gets you to the belief in God, but it doesn't get you to the belief that that the son of God came and had to die. And that's why we have the shroud which testifies to that central event of Christianity.

48:35Yeah, how true. Well, actually, you know, and I've been chastised for that is it's not a central, the central event for Christianity. It's the central event for all mankind, whether you're Christian or not. And we've covered basically, you know, just about all the questions that I have and and we're just about out of time. But one last thing and you kind of hinted at it and spoke about it. But what do you want people? What do you want readers to come away with after they get done with the book? What is the kind of the one central thing that you want then to come away with? To understand, let me add to when we look at the God of extremes, we see creation, we see genetics, we see all this. What does how would you characterize extreme love? How do you demonstrate that? Jesus said greater love has no man than he lay his life down for his friends.

49:38And so true love is sacrificial. And that's what Jesus did. He offered his life as a complete sacrifice. And so how would you describe the extreme love? That's the cross. That's the cross. The fact that he was willing to go through it. And he didn't he didn't he didn't resist it. He didn't he didn't curse his accusers. He just went through it quietly and just suffering and and just, you know, you know, I mean you and I would be cursing our brains out with the with the with the with the first whip. You know, but it's the and so that's that's that's what the cross is and that's what the shroud reveals the shroud reveals this extreme love.

50:39Now the one thing I would want for people to come away with that to understand how much we we say it all the time for God so love the world that he gave his only begotten son. We we say it, but we do we really comprehend it. And I think the shroud helps us comprehend just what it means when when it says that that God loves us. And it's because remember God is a God of extreme. He doesn't do things half halfway. And it's but the other thing is we get to the end of the book is a little understanding of who Jesus is. I think there's a lot of misunderstanding out there as to who Jesus is and when when we understand that he is the co-creator of the universe that this co-creator into beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God. And it was nothing made that wasn't made through the word and then a few verses down and the word became flesh and dwelt among us and we beheld his glory the glory of the only begotten of the father full of grace and truth.

51:47So understand that this that this co-creator of the universe who was there at the very beginning of the foundation of the of of of all creation is the very one who went to the cross for us. It's so incredible. It's so incomprehensible. And the shroud is here to to to to validate it to to give people hope and reassurance that these things are true. And that's what the shroud's all about. Yeah, absolutely. What a way, a powerful way to say that. So Russ, thank you so much. And again, we're talking about his new book. It's called Beneath the Surface. And so where can folks find this book and purchases book and find out more about you and about some of the things you're doing related to the shroud and of course your your teachings and everything else that you're doing. Well, you go to Amazon and you'll find about four books up there. And this is my most recent one. And then the last one I did was called Understanding the Shroud of its very short book overview of everything.

52:59And then the first one I came out with in 24 is called Shroud encounter to explore the world's greatest unsolved mystery. They're all up on Amazon. You can also go to my website shroud encounter.com. They're all there. And it's and so. Yeah, so I have some socials. You can, you know, I brand everything shroud encounters. So if you look on Facebook, Instagram on YouTube for shroud encounter, you'll find my stuff. So yeah. Fantastic. Yeah, Russ, thank you for being here today. And that's shroud encounters dot com shroud encounters dot com. And Russ, what a message and what a story and so good that you you're putting out these books and looking forward to the next. The next one and the next one after that and the next one after that. So fantastic. So for the audience, of course, definitely stay tuned for many more episodes in this series on the backstory of the Shroud of Turin. Russ, thank you so much. Really appreciate it.

54:02My pleasure, guys. Thanks for having me. Absolutely.