Gabrielle Lyon: Why Muscle Is the Key to Longevity

0:00This episode of A Life of Greatness is brought to you by Biohack Wonderlust NMN. NMN is the direct building block of NAD Plus, which supports cellular energy production and nervous system health. As we age, NAD Plus naturally declines. Biohack Wonderlust NMN enhances NAD Plus levels in the body with premium, rapidly absorbed, self-vibe NMN. And is proudly Australian made. The range features five targeted blends and antioxidants to support cellular longevity by reducing free radical damage to body cells. If you're curious about sustaining vitality as you age, you can find Biohack Wonderlust NMN at Chemis Warehouse. Always read the label and follow the directions for use. Dr Gabrielle Lyon is one of the leading voices redefining how we think about strength,

1:04longevity and the way women care for their bodies as they move through different seasons of life. A physician, educator and expert in muscle-centric health, she brings science into everyday language and empowers women to understand themselves in a way that feels both grounded and liberating. I met Gabrielle recently at Wonderlust where this episode was recorded live in front of an audience and we became instant friends. She is warm, kind and genuinely one of the most generous people I've ever come across. In this conversation, we explore the shifting landscape of women's health, the truth about muscle and aging, and what women are really told about perimenopause and menopause. We talk about food and her perspective on carbohydrates and whether we really need them, how to sleep better and the role strength plays not only in how we move but in how we live.

2:22But I'd have to ask myself, is that really doing the best I can? We answer what we know and so then you have to like, man up or woman up or whatever up you want. I'm Sarah Grimberg and this is a life of greatness. Through my years of studying and researching the connection between human behavior, personal growth and transformation, I have discovered the keys to I'm locking greatness within others. In this podcast, I share stories and experiences from my own teachings, along with conversations with inspiring guests to help you learn the simple tips, habits, practices and strategies to cultivate an extraordinary existence. Gabrielle has a new book out, The Forever Strong Playbook. At its heart this episode, is an invitation to see your body not as something to fight against but as something to honor,

3:23strengthen and trust for the long road ahead. My hope is that Gabrielle's wisdom meets you exactly where you are, reminding you that you are not behind, you are not broken and it is never too late to rebuild your strength from the inside out. Gabrielle, welcome to a life of greatness podcast. Thanks so much for having me. You are a certified physician. I'd like to know for people that get into the medical field, I find it really interesting what brought you to medicine. Well, it's a little unusual because I think most people go through, you know, when you're a 17, you probably pick 500 other things that you're going to do. But I actually graduated high school early and I started studying nutritional sciences. Really? Yes. And I don't know if you guys know about Illinois, is anyone ever been to Illinois? Oh my gosh. That's some Illinois people over there. Yeah. And there's two things there, tornadoes and corn fields. And I was in class,

4:31in nutrition class and there was a tornado, a legit tornado. And so we were down in these fallout shelters for, I don't know, about like two hours. And I had this moment where I just felt that I was, I don't want to say useless, but there was nothing that I could do. In case of this emergency, while I was studying nutritional sciences, there was nothing tactical in an emergency that I could do. And it was at that moment, I decided to go to medicine. Wow. Yeah. And what did you learn? You know, medicine is not an easy word. I've got my father's a doctor. And so, you know, being a child of a surgeon, I see the growing hours and, but I also say giving back, I think that is phenomenal. How did you, how have you found that journey? Well, first, I, the jury's been long, about 17 years. I don't recommend anyone do that. But it's a real privilege. It's a real privilege to be able to be a physician and to be a service. It's a profession that allows you

5:37to be present and also impact, if you really care, you can really impact someone's life. And that's, and I don't think there's anything more meaningful than being a service. I agree with you. I feel like life changes when you're a service, you know, for me, I was, you know, working for people in my old role. And I felt that I was giving back, but not really, you know, doing jobs I didn't love. And then when I started to get into a job like this that's a service, my whole life changed. Because, you know, I've said this on the podcast a million times, but I believe it to be true. There was a spiritual teacher who passed many years ago called Rundus. I'm sure some people here have heard of his work. And his famous quote is that we're all here to walk each other home. And I believe that to be true. And that's why the work that you're doing is so profound. What I would love to ask you is, why would people come and see you? What is the

6:41biggest things that you see with patients? Well, I think, if you think about the role of a physician, a good physician is able to recognize patterns of illness. But an effective physician recognizes patterns of people. And you really need both. And I would say, while I'm in the business of medicine, medicine is just the modality. I believe that we can build stronger, more resilient humans, period. And how? Yeah. Do we do that? Well, obviously there's a bi-directional relationship. Yeah. The mind and the body. But from a physical standpoint, you know, you have to recognize that muscle is this organ of longevity. And if you ask me, why would someone come to myself or our clinic? If they want to be the best version of themselves, period and a story? I want to talk about muscle now because it's fascinating. And I feel like muscle, women's health,

7:41protein, it's having its time in the sun, which is amazing. For women, and I know you work with women and men, which is amazing. For middle-aged people, why is building muscles so important? Well, first of all, muscle is important at any age. I have a son. He's actually training for the steel teams. He's four. I was thinking, didn't you tell me before? I think that muscle is important at any age. Yeah. Truly, the early, you know, people talk about lifespan. We've all heard about lifespan and then we've heard about health span. But what about muscle span? And this is the length of time you live with healthy skeletal muscle because it is this organ system. And the earlier that we train it, the better our ability to go through life from every perspective, from a metabolic perspective, from a strength perspective, there's very few things in medicine that you could say,

8:49well, too much is a good thing. Nobody goes to doctor and the doctor says, you over there, black shirt, you got too much muscle. Said no doctor ever. And I think that we have to recognize that it is this unique organ system. And you'd mention that it's finally having its moment. Finally, I mean, so myself, our friends, Stacy, we're talking about for like 20 years. Right, we're done with that. Oh, okay, now, now it's here. But midlife is, there's a turning point. So if you think about transitions, the world and our lives are full of transitions. But they are so predictable. We are shocked by these transitions. But transitions, they're going to happen. And muscle, our physical architecture, is one way to prepare for those life transitions. And so in midlife, we know, I mean, for some people, my dad, not really, he's 74, he lives in Ecuador. He walks

9:53anywhere if it's under four hours. I never go visit him. It's terrible. It's like terrible. But we know that aging is coming. It is inevitable. It is an honor. It is a privilege, but it's coming. We know that people, when they fall and break a hip, their life expectancy goes down. We know activities of daily living, the ability to do these things, this all changes. But it doesn't have to. And midlife, it seems to be this time. There are physiological, physiological changes that happen with muscle. Things like anabolic resistance that if you come to my talk tomorrow, I will tell you more about it, as long as you pretend not to be bored with the science. I have to rethink all these slides. But there are changes that happen. But we can offset those changes by voluntary choices. And I think that's what makes muscle so unique. It is the only organ system that we have complete voluntary control over. It's an organ system of choice.

10:56So when we talk about muscle and obviously say going to the gym, for me, interviewing amazing people like yourself, like Stacy, we mentioned, and many others that talk about women's health. When I was like, right, I'm making changes. I'm going to the gym more and this and that. And I'm going to say the story because it may be relatable to you guys. And I got injured, and injured, and injured, and injured. And then I started thinking, what's wrong with my body? Why do I keep getting injured? What happens when these injuries? I trained when I was young. I never got injuries, but it's like, you know, I'm over 40 now. And suddenly, either I'm doing something wrong, maybe I'm not eating right. I don't know what is happening. And I know that it is a common thing, injury. No one has ever asked me this question, and I've been waiting for it. Oh, yes. Muscle outpaces tendons. And in midlife, if you get injured, it takes you out.

11:56Yeah. We do not recover as fast, but muscle outpaces tendons. And so we have to plan for it. So there's this talk about how we just have to lift heavy. It's not true. We have to lift. Listen to this. Within a framework that we can continue to lift. Because once you are injured, there's this cascade of events that happens. Yeah. And listen, there are a number of things that happen to our tendons and our tissue turnover. But I will say to be fair to scientific integrity, we don't know a ton about tendons. We know a lot about them. But if you have a muscle biopsy, it's no problem. I used to do those at four in the morning routinely. If I don't biopsy your Achilles heel, you're not going to have it. There's no way. We don't have a great way of looking at tendon structure in the living active dynamic human, first of all.

12:57But there are a couple of things that we know. We know that hormones can play a role, even thyroid hormones. So in our clinic, one of the entry points to understand if an individual has a thyroid disorder, is he started getting tendonitis? First, it's their ankle, then it's their shoulder. Really? Yes. And then they go to their doctor and they get a TSH level and they're like, it's fine. But there's a handful of other biomarkers. So we started to see in women that those individuals that they were starting to have thyroid dysfunction, it was showing up in their tendons. That's so interesting. There you go. I was going to stand to make a long story short. Is you have to train with enough stimulus. It's really progressive stimulus. It's not progressive overall. And I think that's what the problem is because you know, you injure yourself and then you go to other exercises that don't involve the area that you injured. You go too hard on that

13:58because you feel like you're not doing much. And then you injure yourself again. That was why that's what happened to me. So that is very interesting to know. I want to ask you as well, when it comes to the mind, because you mentioned that earlier, why is that so important? This is a loaded question. Yeah. And I first want to say that there is this bi-directional relationship. And where skeletal muscle fits into a mental framework is that you use the body to move the mind. I'm going to give you an example. Let's say, well, this group is a little different, but let's say you are just having the worst day ever. And you're having these repetitive thoughts. There's no way out. Maybe a handful of you, again, this group is a little different. You guys might be able to meditate your way out. No. Same. I'm over here. You jump in that cold plunge or I tell you to do a max out effort sprint. There is no way you're thinking about it. It's humanly impossible. If you are pulling the lever of muscle,

15:05you cannot possibly be focused on anything else. And so it is a lever point for mental control. And for someone like yourself, you've just come a very far away. And you're telling me before you've traveled so much. For most people, they would be absolutely, maybe exhausted, but you don't look at or sound as how even from a mental capacity, do you make sure that you're on? There's no narrative. Yeah. It's won her as and at a time. And it's funny. I love that. I was asking myself the same question. Just from an outside perspective, and my husband is very much the same way. There's not a whole bunch of narrative around it. It's just won her as and at a time. Won her as and at a time. And actually I learned that from someone named Rich Divini. So he was a commander at SEAL Team 6. And he was on my podcast. And it was just, we were chatting. I was like,

16:06Rich, so what's the secret? And he was able to verbalize, I think, what some of us learn inherently. And some people have more narratives than others. But just because you're having a thought doesn't mean it's relevant at all. The brain is just another organ system. And the best thing to do is to be aware of your patterns, because humans are so predictable. This is really true, because I'll say for myself, and this is nothing compared to what Gabrielle has just recently done. But for me, I have been traveling a lot. I've got young kids. And then I was coming here and doing quite a lot of stuff. And then I start my tour with Stacy next week. And there was part of me that's like, wow, that's so much stuff. And then I had thought to myself as what you're saying, like, take each moment as it comes. If you think about everything at once, it is so overwhelming that you feel your heart rate start beating. You start feeling panicky. But when you

17:09take each thing at once, and for me, I was like, these are all amazing things. And I'm so excited about them. Let's just conquer, you know, one of them at a time. And then life doesn't seem so hard. And things do not seem overwhelming. I'm going to throw another wrench in this. Yeah, please. One of the most important attributes that I found in those that are able to continue on is that they're neutral. So while we're talking about how exciting it is, it could also just be another Tuesday. It's just another Tuesday. Because as high as you allow yourself to go, is as low as you're going to fall. And that might sound negative or however someone wants to frame that, it's not because if the ultimate goal is to be of service, and the ultimate goal is to be able to put one foot in front of the other and to be able to do it for a period of time, you cannot afford to crash and burn every time something big happens.

18:11It's impossible. You know, there's this one patient that I would take care of, and he would put on this massive event in Vegas. And every year, I'd wait for the call. I'd wait for the call. Duck. I'm so depressed. I just don't feel like working out. I just stayed a bag of Doritos off my stomach and Cheetos from the floor. Yeah. And I said, okay, this year we're going to do it different. This year, there's no loud music, there's no, let's get ants off. It is just steady. I didn't allow him to get too high. He didn't go too low. What do you think happened? I never got that call. And so, you know, and this is what, you know, our friend Andrew talks a lot about. It's this dopamine drive. Yeah. But it is controllable in a way. But you don't control it on the back end trying to dig yourself out of a hole. You don't have to celebrate every win. And again, I kind of appreciate

19:12I'm just meeting some of you for the first time that perhaps this sounds negative, but it's not intended to me that way. It is how do we move forward as strong and more resilient humans? We do it when we have physical control, which then leads to mental control. And one way is, again, this level of neutrality. You've worked a lot and your husband is part of the armed forces, Navy SEALs, and you've seen it all, heard it all. That's a very interesting place to be. It's a hard place to be. And I think we learn a lot from those people and they're the way that they move through life because they see the worst of it. And they can also see some beautiful things too. When you have sat with those people that have done that job, what have you learnt from them? Well, let me think about how to put this, right? And I'm just going to actually be very frank. There are certain people, and please forgive me, that I think are built to be able to do that job.

20:14They are, again, my husband has a SEAL for 10 years. He's been to war. He's now in his third year of surgical training as a surgeon. And him and his brothers, I've been taking care of military cheer when operators for over a decade. They are built a certain way, not all of them, but the ones when you meet them to simplify, they are built for war. They're built for that job. That's not to say that some people don't get PTSD and there's this whole experience, but they don't internalize stress the same way. This has been my experience. Then I'll give you an example. So I had a patient come to see me in New York City. Believe it or not, I had to practice in New York City. I'm Fifth Avenue. I don't recommend it. And he had come to see me. He had been in the SEAL teams for 20 years, and he was a preacher. I don't know if you guys know what that is, first guy in, busts open the door, brings explosives, they usually get injured, very frequently get injured.

21:17And he'd never been injured. He was home from a recent deployment, going five miles an hour on his motorcycle, and a 17-year-old girl texting and driving takes him out. And he lost his leg. Wow. Yeah. And so he's sitting in my office, and I'm thinking to myself, oh my god, this guy's life is absolutely over. This big alpha guy who served his country for 20 years, protecting a country he loves, doing a job he loves is never going to work again. And so I'm sitting there, and he's like typical team guy, uniformed flannels, jeans, hat. He looks like a tree trunk, and I'm thinking to myself, I'm really going to find out how he's doing, which was foolish of me. So I lean in and I'm like, Brian, how are you doing? If he looks at me, he's like, did you just ask me for a box of tampon? And you know, he looked at me totally confused, so I'm like, no, he's not getting it.

22:21I'm like, how are you doing? And he looked at me, and then he looked confused, and he looked at me again. He's like, oh, my leg. He's like, doc, I was like six months ago. Really? Yes. And I called my husband, who knew he was coming in, and I was like, Shane, you know, Brian was in. And I go through the whole story, and it was dead sound on the other line. And he's like, honey, you know, what are you talking about? That was like six months ago. I was like, you're an idiot, click. But it was in that moment, I realized that there was just this unique characteristic, and it wasn't that he didn't go through trauma, and this thing didn't happen, but he moved so quickly off the axe from his experience that when he was sitting there, it was just, what's the next right action? What's the discernment for the next right step? And I think that, you know, I don't know, there's things I can't get over from six, six years ago. Yeah. This guy has a major trauma, but he's able to move on. And I think when I look back,

23:24and I reflect on what makes individuals experience unique to move through this world, and what is a common thread, that is certainly a common thread. Biohack Wanderlust has finally brought NMN to Australia in five breakthrough blends. So you can take your favorite supplement for cellular energy and longevity with added benefits to suit your needs. One formula combines NMN to support energy production with activated B vitamins to support mental function. So you can fuel the systems that power you through every day. You can find NMN plus activated Bs exclusively at Chemist Warehouse now. Always read the label and follow the directions for use. It's interesting. I was just asking questions on a panel earlier today, and what came up a lot, it was actually Rady Koo, Owens Wanderlust's father,

24:26who's a professor in his 80s, and he says, I can tell by talking to someone if they'll get cancer or have heart disease. And we're like, how could I get what? From talking to someone, how? And he said, because it is their levels of stress. And I was like, wow, okay, I need to change a few things in my life, but that's very, very interesting. I want to get on to talking about food with you, because that is something that you know a lot about. You've done a lot of research on it, and you talk to a lot of your patients about it. There is so much talk on food these days, like I'm completely confused. There's zillions of different diets out there. This is good, that's not good, you know. If we want to live well and also enjoy what we're eating without having to like not be able to eat some things, what is the best sort of food? To be able to fuel us and allow us to be strong and happy and healthy. Yeah. Well, first, because there are so many different diets out

25:29there, it signals to me that humans are very diverse, and their food choices are extremely diverse and they're personal. And there's a million different ways to do it right, first and foremost. I think we can all agree that whole foods are best from my perspective and from the scientific literature with my mentor, the way that we create a diet is really a muscle-centric diet, because if you believe that muscle is the organ of longevity, which you all should, because I don't know unless you're a urologist, you might think it's something else, but didn't, you know, I'm talking about right, okay. Then you have to fuel for that, period end of story, right? So again, there's a million different diets, but if you believe that muscle is the organ of longevity, you have to protect that. And as I mentioned in the beginning of this conversation, is that things change as we age, the muscle tissue changes, and you have to be able to account for that. And one way you account for that is anchoring your nutrition and protein. So from my perspective,

26:33the first decision you make is how much protein you're going to have, and that is dependent on a few things. Age, physical activity, and metabolic health. If you are more mature, we'll say 30 plus, 35 plus, then you begin to make decisions, as hormones begin to change, that's one of your decisions. If you are older, even beyond that, then that is that first decision. And the older you are, the more protein you need. Because if muscle is stimulated primarily by two ways, which is physical activity, or dietary protein, you have to pull both lovers, the more mature you get. And when it comes to things like carbohydrates, again, they're not having their tongues so much in the sun. You guys remember the food guide pyramid? Like there was the worst social experiment that ever happened in the history of ever. Talk to us about carbohydrates.

27:36So obviously, for example, like a fruit is a carbohydrate. When it comes to carbs, what should we be ingesting? Is it very much dependent on how much we're working out as well? Because you've got an amazing rip body, and you work out. So the level of carbs I'm assuming you intake would be different to mine. So I would love to know. Talk to us a bit about carbohydrates in their place. So this is actually what I'm going to talk about tomorrow. Oh, great. Because I think that it is really misunderstood. And we are out piecing our muscle health with the way that we're eating. And there's a way to fuel for muscle health. And again, the average person is not training. And while we can put all of these hypothetical diets, we have to create diets for what people are actually doing. Otherwise, it becomes very confusing. So the first choice you make is protein. The second choice you decide is it going to be fat or is it going to be carbohydrates? If you are

28:38metabolically healthy, you choose. Metabolically healthy. I'll talk a little bit about what that means. It's, you know, have you heard of metabolic syndrome? No. Elevated glucose, elevated insulin, elevated blood pressure, elevated waistline. People think that this is a disease of obesity. It's not. It's a disease of skeletal muscle, first. And so what does that mean? That means that if you are suffering from high blood sugar, high triglycerides, what you're actually suffering from is unhealthy muscle. But we've been trained to think that it's all out there. And it's all about obesity. It's not. It is a symptom of unhealthy muscle. If you course correct that, one way is obviously physical activity, but reducing carbohydrate burden to allow your body to utilize what you are feeding, the less likely you will get metabolic syndrome. Specifically,

29:41you guys are like, what the hell do you talk about? This is, I'm done. So this means that, for example, we talk about protein thresholds. You guys heard about protein, you know, meal distribution. Great. One person. Thank God. I'm just kidding. But there's also a carbohydrate distribution. And then when you are over-consuming carbohydrates, say above around 40 grams, you begin to distort metabolism. Really? Yes. And yes. And here's why. If we were to think about, okay, how many carbohydrates can we dispose of in a two-hour period of time? You know, we have a disease for this, and that's called diabetes. So there's a glucose tolerance test that any of you guys have had kids. And we understand that if you cannot regulate this 75 gram load, you will either be diagnosed with prediabetes or diabetes. So the body can dispose of a sedentary individual, so someone who is not training, which by definition is going to be the majority of the population.

30:45Yeah. Just by definition, that anything above that will begin to distort metabolism, because if you look at liver, obligatory use, which is brain and kidney, and muscle, which actually doesn't use many carbohydrates that rest at all. Really? No. Yes. So it's very inactive and not very metabolically active. It's like this big mitt. So it's about 20 grams of glucose per hour. Total. So if anyone here is thinking, so can I still have a sandwich every day, or they're a bit unsure to what, if they're not working out, what is it once a week, one piece of fruit a day, so it all depends on muscle health. Yeah. And fruit is different from these star-chee white carbs. Yeah. And again, how healthy are they metabolically? And if they are healthy, then you obviously can go higher, right? There's muscle glycogen. But again, if someone wants to lose weight is not metabolically healthy, stay you go to your doctor and you have elevated triglycerides.

31:49Your doctor, and you have elevated triglycerides, it's not necessarily a triglyceride problem. It is more likely a carbohydrate problem. One of the things that we would do in clinic is if we would reduce carbohydrates, so one way that we would tell if someone was following their nutrition plan, and the studies that we were doing is that we reduced their carbohydrates to around 130 grams. And we would see around a 20% decrease in triglycerides. And this is a way that we would see if they were being compliant. And I think that it's really important to understand, because what we are doing now is we're now reframing the conversation around muscle health. Not about having to lose weight or what you have to restrict, but really thinking, okay, here's this organ system. We can now eat and train for this organ system that then can protect us from longevity standpoint. And that's, again, it's really a reorientation to the way that we think about muscle health. I'd love to know, I'm looking around, and there's a lot of females in the audience. And when we're

32:53coming into talking about perimenopause and menopause, which is obviously also having its time in the sun, thank God, things change, and some women say that they feel that they get a lot of belly fat. Talk to us about your experience with that, and if someone that's listening is experiencing that, what is the best way to shift it? Well, one of the reasons why individuals see a redistribution of fat is the change in hormones. Yeah. Deep peace in estrogen as well. It doesn't. But it also, I've been seeing patients for over a decade, it doesn't have to happen. Yeah. If you are, so there is, to first of all, if it does happen, typically there is a change in the hormonal profile. And I think that we've all heard about that. But also, we have to address lifestyle factors. That is training and diet. So let's say a woman is going through perimenopause and she's not sleeping. And instead of, I don't know, putting your red light glasses on, listening to

33:54some Zen music, she's drinking wine. Now we're adding in extra calories, and now it's disrupting your sleep. And maybe she's not just having one glass of wine. And then maybe after the wine, it's some ice cream. You know, like it can go on. But it doesn't mean just because you go through perimenopause or manopause. It doesn't necessarily mean that you're going to gain weight. And it will also see something else. That's very good to hear. Can I just add this? Yeah. Because I went through a stage on my podcast where I interviewed a lot of women about women's health. And I found that I was getting so much information about perimenopause and menopause that I haven't been through yet, that I was so scared. And I thought, oh my god, this is going to happen to me. I'm going to gain weight. I'm going to go mad. And all night sweats and this and that. I had to put the books down. I was like, you know, what Gabi just said, it doesn't have to be like that. That is not for everyone. Not at all. And I think, again, we're hearing a lot of information because I think women have been so underserved from an information perspective. But if we paint that picture, no one's going to

34:57want to hire a woman. I would be like, oh my god, this is just shackling stuff for all these things. But it doesn't have to happen. And I think that we also, this is another area we have to reorient the conversation because, hey, it's just like tax tape or Christmas or New Year's. It's common. If you're lucky, it's common. Okay. So what do we have to do? You prepare for it in the best way that you can, which is through physical activity and resistance training. And then if it happens, you're ready for it. You're ready to take action. You're ready to meet that call. But again, you don't have to gain weight. You don't have to become less strong. And there's a lot of myths out there. So you will hear that during menopause, there's an accelerated decrease in muscle mass. Have you heard that? Yeah. It's not true. It coincides with aging. So the majority of the data would suggest that that's not true. That it just coincides with in your 50s, men and women, their relative changes. So I just think that we have to be very careful

35:57that we don't swing the other way because again, women were not included or had to be included in research until 1993. There's a lot that we don't know. But regardless, we have to look at what the evidence that we do know. And the overwhelming amount of evidence is that a good training program is a good training program, regardless of your sex. And I think that that's very liberating. No cycle syncing. No, none of this. It's, this is a good foundational strength program. Works for everyone. What are your thoughts on Ichati? Great. All of it. I'm just kidding. It's nothing that was funny. It's okay. I'm full of mom jokes. But the reality is is I actually do research in hormones. We just published a paper that shows that more healthy muscle mass. Better erections. So I've gotten everyone's attention in their own. The more healthy muscle mass you have, the better your sexual function. Wow. And we just published that. So I work, so my husband

37:04is in the urology department and they have andrology there. So these are specialists in hormones. And so we do research. We're working on a trial right now with testosterone and females. Randomized control trial. Yeah. So to your question, I think that HRT and the Women's Health Initiative has done a lot of damage to women. But on the flip side, also, to men. There was a period of time. So up until 1930s, people were getting hormone replacement. Did you guys know that? Yeah. And then there was one study that came out that correlated testosterone with prostate cancer. Have you all heard the testosterone causes prostate cancer? It's a lie. They started castrating men because they didn't want them to get prostate cancer if they were at risk. And so nobody questioned this for decades. And then there was Dr. Abe Morgan Haller who was a Harvard doctor and he was like, I studied reptiles and testosterone. There's no way

38:11that reducing their testosterone is going to make these guys better. And so as an outside of the box thinker, he went down to the basement in Harvard and he pulled the study and low and behold, do you know how many patients were in that study that were usable? Clearly no one listens to my pocket. One patient based on a blood work, like a blood level that they don't even use anymore. It's wild. So these are the things that we see in medicine. Yeah. Is that it's not questioned? And it is done. And so they started castrating men. Can you imagine how many sons and fathers and brothers that they really affected? Wow. I mean, just could potentially destroy their life. Yeah. And it was wrong. And I think on the flip side, the same thing is true for TRT or HRT for women. If they've been very underserved, now it's not to say it's not without risk because I think that there is a risk with everything, right? There's no free launch. There's a risk

39:15with too much sun. There's just there risk involved. But we have to recognize that there are a lot of positives to HRT. And you know, we're talking about hormone replacement therapy and TRT. Low testosterone is a risk factor for heart disease. Yeah. I want to talk about supplements because like my mind boggles with that. There are so many out there and I know it can be different for every person. But for someone that feels okay, but you know, again, he's going to middle age and wants to take something. Are there supplements that everyone should be taking anyway? Yeah. I mean, again, could you probably do well without him? Yeah. But if you, we're going to say, okay, Gabrielle, what should I take? I'll tell you what we recommend to our patients. So we have an omega, a vitamin magnesium, maybe a multi. You know, that's baseline. Nothing crazy. And so we might also recommend

40:19uralythin A. And there's other things, but you have to get the foundational pieces, right? And what about like in the biohacking world with these peptides and what kind of stuff? We've been using peptides since 2015. Really? Yeah. What do you take? I mean, I don't really take much just because I'm moving fast. Yeah. But I've taken a bunch in the past. We prescribed them. We've used them. You know, from my perspective, if something sounds too good to be true, it usually is. So when we started with peptides, I had this one patient, he jumped out of an airplane and his parachute didn't go off and he was doing static jump. So he completely destroyed his knee. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. But we put him on this stack of TB 500 and BPC. And he seemed to improve. And then another guy jumped out of a plane and he doesn't improve at all.

41:21And I think that there is some genetic variability. I really do. And also we don't have these randomized control trials for the peptides, which is weird. We did another study where we looked at peptides again for testosterone, increasing testosterone. We didn't really find much. So again, I think that it's wonderful to be excited about stuff. But then we also have to look at if it works, we'll find evidence that it works like these GLP ones. They work. We use them in the clinic. We've never seen anything more effective in medicine. I would say it comes to weight man. Oh, yeah. And I used to run a weight management clinic when I was doing my fellowship. Wow. And at that time, we didn't have access to these peptides. And these people suffered. What about creating? I was going to say that that was the biohacking supplement. 10 to 12 grams for brain function. 10 to 12. Wow. And I think there's pretty good evidence. It's based on white. It's not based on weight, which is a great question. Yeah. 5 grams for muscle, but I think 10 to 12

42:25for brain. And that's the one supplement that I think because you're not going to be able to eat enough. There's a half a gram of creatine and a pound of meat. Yeah. I mean, no one's eaten that. I mean, Sean Baker might be, but I love Sean. But we're not. Yeah, I mean, not. So I do think that there is some good benefit with creatine. And if we're looking at health and wellness and longevity as a whole, sleep is obviously a huge part of that. It's really unfortunate. Yeah. I hope sleeping. It's true. I've never had it such a waste of time. I know. This one does so much stuff as well. And for me, I know it's interesting because if I get a little amount of sleep, I'm awful. Like, awful. Someone looks at me the wrong way. I want to cry. Take everything so seriously. I hate that I'm like that, but I get really affected. Whilst I see other people not so much, is everyone need eight hours? What has been your experience with sleep? So I hear it's really important.

43:25And I understand. And yeah, it's really important, but I would be hyper great if I told you that I sleep a lot. I don't. And I think that there is a genetic snip for some people that do better on less sleep. I'm not proud of it, but I'll give you an example. So I interviewed someone named Dr. Allison Breger. And we were talking about military operators and these guys that can do four hours of sleep. And they're like, oh, it's for him. I'm getting up. You're like, go play in traffic, dude. And they all had the same genetics. They all had the same genetic snip. And they also say the presidents have them that they're able to function on around four hours of sleep. So it's a genetic mutation that allows people to do their job. I wish I got that one, but I didn't. Yeah, I did. I need like five to six. So I think that sleep is having its moment and it is really important, you know, especially when we think about for aging and dementia and recovery. But I will say, I think some people can get away with less. I mean, yeah. But it is important. It's important.

44:29It's interesting, you know, you mentioned Andrew Cuban them before that we, who we both know. And when I spoke to him, I said, what is the best thing we can do for our skin and aging? They all believe in sleep. And he said, sleep. And I was like, oh, it's not a cream or something. I mean, I think there is. Yeah. What do you think for aging? What do you have to train? So if you go through a period where you are sleep deprived, and you suppress muscle protein synthesis, all of these things happen, I can appreciate it. But there is some level of an ability to offset that with hard training. And again, it's all it's all a choice. It's like choose your own adventure. If I had to sleep eight hours a night, probably feel a lot better, but hey, it wouldn't be nearly as effective. I don't care what anybody says. The reality is, I have two little kids and a man child and he's working a hundred hours a week. I run four businesses. I just finished my second book. It's coming out in January. And I'm working on my next. Yes, it would be

45:32wonderful to sleep. But you know what? That's not fun for me. And again, it's just I think everybody we always have these rules. And I think we have to be able to be flexible and to be true to ourselves and how we roll. And I think that's really important. I'd love to know what's the best advice that you have ever been given? I don't think I can say it out loud. I'll give, I got to think of another one. The best advice I'm going to try to rework this because it does have this wayward in it. You have to ask yourself, just in any moment, are you doing the best you can? And I'll tell you after what the real word is. I feel like, are you? See, they're yes or no, are you? If you are complaining to yourself, if you are not meeting a deadline, if you are tired, right? I could feel up here and be like, man, I was in Portugal and I was home for half a day and then I was in Vegas and then here I am. But I'd have to ask myself

46:33is that really doing the best I can? And the answer would be no. And so then you have to like man up or woman up or whatever you want. I'd love to know what brings you joy. My kids, my family. Connection is such a big thing. You must see that through your patience. Ones that are connected to friends and family. Do you think that plays an important role in being well and happy? Yeah, and I think the evidence supports that. Yeah. We are communal animals. We are not designed. Our hardwiring is not designed to live in isolation. Unless you're my mother-in-law. No, just kidding. What is a life of greatness to you? It's one of service. Beautiful. Gabrielle Lyon, you are an absolute via cracker. I want to mention your new book that's coming out is The Forever Strong Playbook. Everyone must buy it. This has been a beautiful,

47:37beautiful conversation. Thank you so much. Thank you. Let's continue this journey together via my weekly newsletter. Head over to Substack and Search Sarah Grimberg, where I share deeper insights and reflections that go beyond the episodes. My book Living a Life of Greatness is out now. In it, I open up about my own journey and share actionable tips to help you live your own life of greatness. You can grab a copy on Amazon or at your favorite bookstore. Make sure to subscribe to my YouTube channel. Just search Sarah Grimberg to watch videos of all my episodes. And don't forget to subscribe to this podcast on your favorite podcast platform. There are so many amazing episodes on the way you don't want to miss them. Links to everything I've just mentioned can be found in this episode show notes.