FBI Using SNP DNA Testing in Nancy Guthrie Case_ This Could Change Everything

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1:02And Doug, there's nowhere I wouldn't go to help someone customize and save on car insurance with Liberty Mutual, even if it means sitting front row at a comedy show. Hey everyone, check out this guy and his bird. What is this your first date? Oh no, we help people customize and save on car insurance with Liberty Mutual together. We're married. Meet a human, him to a bird. Yeah, the bird looks out of your leg anyways. Only pay for what you need at Liberty Mutual.com. This podcast is brought to you by Avocado Matress, and if healthy, comfortable sleep matters to you, this is one organic brand worth knowing. That's because what you sleep on actually matters. Most mattresses rely on synthetic phones and chemical materials that trap heat, break down over time, or off gas. Avocado does it differently. Their mattresses are handcrafted with natural materials, organic latex, organic wool, and organic cotton, designed to be naturally cooling, incredibly supportive, and long-lasting. They're certified organic by gods and meet

2:03multiple non-talks that can save these certifications, made for people who care about their health and the environment without sacrificing comfort. I love that avocado proves you don't have to choose between comfortable, supportive sleep and your values. And now, during our Earth Month sale, you can get up to 15% off avocado mattresses. Just go to AvocadoGreenMatress.com. Get up to 15% off at AvocadoGreenMatress.com. The FBI is using single, new, clear-tied polymorphism, commonly known as the SNP technique for testing DNA in the Guthrie case. This could change everything. Today, I'm police off the cuff. We're talking about a potentially major development in the disappearance of Nancy Guthrie. Reports indicate that DNA evidence recovered from inside Nancy's house is now being examined with advanced testing. And if the FBI is using SNP DNA analysis, what many people call the SNP technique,

3:09this case may be entering a whole new phase, because when traditional DNA methods don't get you ahead, single, nuclear-tied polymorphism, better known as SNPs, testing can sometimes take investigators where standard testing cannot. And a quick reminder, if you're looking for real crime insight, not YouTube theories, this channel's different. I'm a retired NYPD sergeant. And on police off the cuff, we analyze cases the way cops and prosecutors do. What matters? What doesn't? And what the internet gets wrong? If that's your perspective, then subscribe now, because this isn't entertainment. It's experience. So folks, one of the things I wanted you to know is that this show, police off the cuff, is sponsored by FanDool on the Believe Network. And if you're not subscribed, hit that subscribe button, give us a thumbs up, share us, like us, and make lots of comments. It helps our show to grow, helps the algorithm grow. Also, if you want to contribute financially, we have a

4:10Patreon with four different levels and a YouTube channel membership with five different levels, and you can join the police off the cuff YouTube family. And we'd appreciate having you. So folks, hold on to your hats. Hold on to your loved ones. Hold on to your glass of wine and your cup of coffee. Hold on to your service dog. You're about to enter true crime. From a police perspective, you're about to enter the off the cuff zone, the police off the cuff zone. There's some common sense. They were the ones who called 911 to get a call, and now they're calling to change. Joining me today, and we're going to get right into it, is retired NYPD, Sergeant, Professor at Alberta's Magnus College in Connecticut.

5:12Attorney at law, welcome to the show, Professor Mike Geary. Welcome, Mike. Hey Bill, good afternoon. Thank you for having me on the show. So Mike, you know, when I first heard about this breakthrough yesterday, I got really excited that wow, this is something that potentially could solve this case. And I still believe that right now as we do this show, however, it's this sort of a little negativity in this in my opinion. This DNA existed on February 1st, February 2nd, February 3rd of this year, depending on what they they collected, and they sent it to the Miami lab that the Pima County Sheriff's Office uses instead of directly to the FBI. And everyone questioned that, and I still question that now, Mike, did this slow down the investigation? I don't want to throw like a monkey wrench into this, what should be a gleeful happy

6:14and hopeful occasion with this new DNA that they're testing. But did this delay the process, Mike? Well, absolutely. This did. It delayed it for a long time, and it does remind, it just seems to be that I'm not going to say anybody's, anybody in particular's name, but it seems to be that the Sheriff's Department, the Sheriff's Office, wanted to go it alone in this case and delayed calling in the FBI, delayed turning this over. The FBI had been called in and said, and asked, look, could you help us? We've got some samples, some DNA samples that are crime scene people collected. You guys are the experts. Can we can you work with us and take this? And could you, bear the expense also of taking care of how much this is going to cost? It didn't. It delayed everything probably at least 30 days, six to two months, at least. I mean, it's sad because what you may have

7:17gotten from it earlier, we may be that much farther along the line in identifying a possible perpetrator, but it didn't happen, and it just delays everything. This is excellent news. We should be happy about that, but we should be a little guarded in our optimism that the FBI can actually now get this sample that has existed for two months and, you know, in someone else's possession and actually work with it now. They have, I think, I'm not sure if they work with ophthalm labs in Texas, but their labs are superior to anyone else's, and this is a very hopeful sign. 100%. As we know, Nancy Guthrie vanished after returning home to her residence in Tucson on the night of January 31st, 2026, according to public reporting. Since then, investigators have been working a very complex case involving the house surrounding evidence and multiple forensic leads. Now, here's where it gets extremely interesting. Public reporting has said that DNA evidence

8:20found that Nancy Guthrie's residence is being analyzed and that the FBI has received DNA evidence for advanced testing. Separately, the sheriff's office said DNA from gloves found about two miles from the house was submitted to codeus and produced known matches. That's that distinction matters because when people hear DNA, DNA, they often think it's one simple test. It's not. And law enforcement DNA analysis can move in stages. The first level is often more traditional profile work used for codeus. The FBI's combined DNA index system. Codeus is built to compare forensic DNA profiles electronically against known offender and forensic profiles already in the database. It's a powerful tool, but only if the right person is already in the system of the sample, strong enough to generate that kind of profile codeus need. What happens when codeus gives you nothing? That is where the SNP single nucleotide polymorphism or SNPs testing may come into play.

9:24These are two genetic variations across the genome. According to the National Institute of Justice, SNPs can sometimes be used on smaller and more degraded DNA samples than standard single tandem repeat testing. That is a huge deal in a case like this where the evidence may be limited, aged, mixed, or environmentally compromised. I know that's a little bit complicated, but I wanted to get that out there because people think, you know, it's so simple. Take a DNA sample. Send it into codeus. Well, codeus is two areas. It's codeus is convicted offender DNA. That's in the database. And then when you get a potential perpetrator, it's put into codeus and it can sometimes come up with the name of the person you're looking for. The second category of DNA in codeus is forensic DNA. That's DNA from crime scenes that has yet to be identified. So potentially they could

10:25put, they did put this DNA in codeus and no hit. So that means a couple of things. It means the person or person's responsible for this have not been convicted of a crime in the United States. Does that mean they could have been convicted in another country? Absolutely. The other part is that the DNA didn't hit any other forensic evidence from a crime scene that is codeus. And that's happened before. And as a result of that, investigators were able to identify the perpetrator. What was the case of that woman who was murdered by, I don't have another tip of my tongue, but they first matched the DNA of the perpetrator who murdered and raped her to a case in California. Rachel Marin. Rachel Marin. That's exactly right. And that was unbelievable how they did that. And the police in that case did an incredible job. It wasn't

11:26Baltimore. I think they did an incredible, incredible, anyway, we don't want to dwell on that. But so these are the possibilities. But now when you get a DNA sample that goes into SNPs, single nucleotide polymorphism, if I say that one more time during this show, I'm going to demand an A from the professor here. But or SNPs, that's how they refer to it. And one of the things that SNPs does, it allows the scientists, the investigator, to take a very small sample of DNA. And I'm going to use the word that I love. We remember the mic, remember it and amplify it. That's right. That somehow means make it bigger. In music, it's diminished and to make something bigger in music, it's called augmented, an augmented chord, right? So in DNA, it to make the sample larger, you amplify it. And that's what they're able to do. And it's extremely amazing

12:33science. But there's several steps to this mic. And I'm not the scientist to really describe this, what the other steps are. But just to know that they can amplify the sample. And then the next step I believe, and in this case, it's even more complicated because the DNA was mixed together with other DNA. So they have to amplify it and separate it, right? And then another step after that is to use investigative genetic genealogy to build a family tree. Mike, I hope you're smarter than me since you are the professor. I explained it as good as I just could. That's, that's, that's tough. I wish I was a biologist or chemist. But as you were talking about the DNA, being loaded up to code is, and still, even if you don't, it doesn't give you a hit. You loaded up to code is to see if it matches anything previously submitted by any other agency.

13:36Because this is where you can help catch a serial rapist or someone like that. Because even if you don't know their name, they've never been in the system before. Once their DNA is uploaded, if it's uploaded some other time, and they don't even know who this is, it's up, it's taken from a crime scene. It's, it then matches. So then you could see patterns. Oh, it was a, this DNA from a rape saying Kansas City, Missouri matches a rape from Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. So you know, now you have someone who's traveling and they're a serial rapist. What this tells me, if there's no hidden codeus, it also tells me that this sample, this person from, from whom the sample came, has not been engaged in any, and probably in any sexual, sexual assaults, essays, anywhere else in the country and had their DNA uploaded. So that, that, so we're not dealing with a serial abuser. And so I think that's, that's a good thing. But yeah, this is, this is huge,

14:40and this is going to make everything, it just, it helps a little bit narrow the focus down a little bit. But it's, it's fantastic news. And we were happy about that. But it's still going to take a while, because even if you can't, you, even if it doesn't match anyone else's in the system in codeus or any other DNA that was found is still identified, you still have, you can go through IGG, the University of Genealogy, and this is people need to be reminded. How accurate this is? People claim, oh, you amplify a little piece of DNA. How could that be once you amplify, you know, how could that be accurate anymore? Well, as if they altered it by amplifying it, right? Right. Right. So it's, it's, it's a fantastic thing. We know it's 100% accurate. It's been used before. So people who are like, well, we'll say, oh, I don't like the way they treat the DNA, or that doesn't seem right to me. No, this is scientific fact. This is fantastic.

15:44From the chat at Gateshead on the score, Angel, SNP isn't that done faster than looking through genealogy. Gateshead Angel, the SNP is a step before IGG. So this enables the scientists to go into investigative genetic genealogical sites. Once they have this sample somewhat identified and they build not somewhat identified and they build a family tree. And it's moved building that family tree. They come up with a potential perpetrator. So as CC Moore had described on numerous and we're going to see her today, is that investigative genetic genealogy gives you probable cause. It should never be used by itself to establish probable cause, but it gives you a list of suspects and you must work with the police through investigation. That's why it's called investigative

16:46genetic genealogy to come up with the person that committed the crime. And then once you get that person identified, another sample of the DNA is taken and usually that's, you know, as close to 100 percent hit as humanly possible. This is from ABC News Arizona. The coverage of the Nancy Guthrie disappearance. We want to get right to our forward hatchet with new information from authorities for IGG. Even guys, the new information has been hard to come by in this search. But today on day 75 of that search for Nancy Guthrie, a little sliver of hope, sources now telling ABC News, the FBI is now analyzing, quote, potentially critical DNA recovered from Nancy Guthrie's Tucson home. The FBI confirming its lab was recently sent a hair sample collected in February, a private lab in Florida that works with the Pima County Sheriff. I want to stop right there. There's the confirmation of it. They would just recently sent a hair fiber from the lab in Miami. So they had that for two and a half months.

17:48And now the FBI is just getting it. So as much as we want to be exuberant and positive and be all on board with this, this slowed down this investigation, Mike. Yeah. And with that goes potential suspects maybe giving time to flee witnesses who may not remember a few things that we would like to have and remember, at any time you go past, you know, everybody's memory fades and people start to feel differently about things. If they had this, the FBI had this sample, you know, within the first 72 hours, 96 hours, we'd have been talking about how wonderful this breakthrough is sometime in the end of February, you know, the last week of February before before even spring began. And but here we are. Let's hope that even with the mistake that was made and not calling in the FBI earlier and giving them access to what they need

18:50that we still have a positive identification on some levels. But yet there's no way this did not negatively affect the investigation. This definitely did 100 percent. The back ABC news here. Sending that sample to the FBI who sources tell ABC News is now using new technology to analyze it after hoping to get that hair sample for weeks. They're hoping it can lead them to Nancy's kid napper and about two dozen federal and Pima County investigators remain actively working on this case. DNA and question matters in part because of where this investigation began. Early on, two men were detained and released. The sheriff told me in February, the investigation moves on leads. Those leads will direct the pace. To get to a point where you had a search warrant served at two occasions, that could happen again today. It could happen tomorrow. It may not happen for another week or two. It just depends on the lead. We chased leads. That's what investigations are about. As far as we know, there have been no additional search warrants since February when we last spoke to the sheriff. He's not been taking interviews recently. And the question is now whether

19:53this hair sample analyzed with that new FBI technology can give investigators the lead they have been waiting for for 75 days to find. So this is so interesting, too, because right away what I think of with with this hair. And usually from hair, it's something called mitochondrial DNA, which is DNA from the maternal side of the family. But the reason I get excited about this, because in 1993, a woman named Sandra Castilla was murdered in Eastern Long Island near South Hampton, Manorville, it was called. And a hair on her back was recovered at that scene. But it wasn't identified for many, many years later, because in 1993, they did not have the technological advances in DNA to identify that hair. But guess what? They identified it came back to none other than Long Island serial killer Rex Ewerman. So this is the same technology that they're talking

20:59about right now that were used on the Gilgo Beach serial case. So they can identify this hair. And but as we said earlier on, there are several steps they need to the DNA that they said they recovered was commingled DNA. But with a hair sample, that's not commingled, is it Mike? That's a single piece of evidence. So did they have one piece of hair or did they have several hairs? And these are some of the questions I have. And that could be the smoky. What would you do if your online store converted 36% more shoppers? You could take 36% more vacation, open a new retail location, with 36% more square feet, higher 36% more help. You're hired and you're hired. Shopify has the world's best converting checkout up to 36% better than other e-commerce platforms. What you do with those extra sales is up to you.

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24:12the perpetrator or perpetrator tours that are involved in this heinous crime in the kidnapping of Nancy Guthrie, Mike. Yeah, it's it's so convincing. Everybody knows absolutely how accurate you know the DNA sampling as we saw this with Brian Koverga, we just want like to mention it that the chances of Brian Kover not being once they took they had him under arrest and they did a buckle swab and that confirmed the DNA from the button on the sheath from the night of the homicides the morning of the homicides. The chance of it not being him was one in like one million quattillion like a number that is so insanely large that it's like 26 zeros. It's just amazing. That's how accurate it is and one of the people in the chat, Oki Doki just said a minute ago that yeah that alone DNA alone will doesn't mean that you know you that the person is guilty of the crime you need to have other things with it.

25:14So therefore and that's right we if you look at the Brian Koverga search warrant the the arrest warrant I'm sorry and it said that the DNA alone does not form the basis of probable cause other things too. It's a real vital important piece but that standing alone is not probable cause and that standing on will not probably stand to convict someone unless they plea bargain because they know you know that and a few other things they got you but it is so vitally important because it's been proven for you know for decades now to be next next to 100% accurate in all in all terms. You know Mike there's a question from the chat at Wendy E 301 what if it's from the father's side of the family. Do you know the answer to that? Well they're not they're not going to get mitochondrial DNA they may whatever I wish I was a chemist that's a great question we always

26:18talk about the mitochondrial DNA but interestingly when and I guess this is the best answer I can provide as a non practitioner of chemistry and biology is that once they got Brian Koverga's sample off the knife sheath and they then developed further information that he might be the perpetrator cell phone geofencing technology the fact that he had a Hyundai and they started and they went and they surrounded his house and they were watching his parents house they got a sample of his father's DNA from like a I think it was an ear ear wax all things and they matched it so there is some way to match a DNA from two males together to show their family lineage but I'm not sure what you would call it but that's a great question. There's actually you know what I thought of right away is look every human being has a mother and a father yeah right so that the technology behind mitochondrial DNA is that you would probably

27:24identify the mother even if the hair came from the father's side of the family you're going to identify the mother because that's what the technology calls for that's my best guest my best hypothesis because again I am not a scientist either but I have read up on some of this stuff well a lot of it but I'm not I think to really become an expert on this stuff you have to work with it every day and we're going to have a little bit of a CC more later on to explain it and only the way that she can this is also ABC news again a little report from them three kid napping case ABC news says the FBI has received more DNA samples and is now using techniques to analyze them big unines Craig Smith live now in the Catalina foothills near Nancy Guthrie's home with more on this latest development Craig. Well you know throughout the Nancy Guthrie disappearance people have really tended to seize on fixate upon any new developments any new piece of possible evidence

28:28that might translate into a break in the case and now we have to know whether to wait to see whether this new piece of information will be the kind of break people are hoping for or whether it will be another false hope these images are the hardest information anyone outside the investigation is able to know about someone wearing a mask and gloves with almost all skin covered up FBI and sheriff's department investigators have combed the area looking for anything that could be fresh evidence there was a lot of attention to a black rubber glove found maybe a mile from Nancy Guthrie's house it went through DNA analysis but the trace came back to someone investigators decided it had no connection to the case I just my mic I just want to someone from the chat I have to comment on this I don't get don't get there seven I think it's speculation that the Florida lab had the hair evidence since February I don't think it is speculation that it was reported that the FBI just received this evidence from that Florida lab so how is that speculation that that's

29:31what the reports are saying and if the FBI had this earlier when it was when we have been told that that they had the DNA we were told they didn't have the DNA so where else would they have gotten it from look let's face it the Pima County Sheriff's Office processed this crime scene not the FBI and admittedly Sheriff Nano said he sent the evidence to a lab in Miami so right there there's your information they did not send it to the FBI now with two and a half months in and the lab in Miami is just sending this DNA to the to the FBI at this point Quantico Virginia so okie dokie thank you for your comment but I think it's sort of it's sort of proven that that's the way it was back to ABC News clearly any evidence would be checked to see if it holds any useful DNA the Pima County Sheriff's Department has been sending DNA samples to a lab in Florida

30:32now ABC News has learned the Florida lab recently sent samples to FBI laboratories for advanced and now there there you have it I didn't totally realize that that was going to be in this report but that's where it came from it came from the Florida lab well sister having DNA is not the same as having a match investigators could have to sift through a muddled mixture of DNA from anyone who has ever been in Nancy Guthrie's house investigators would have to identify anyone they can decide if they can exclude them as suspects then search databases to try to match any other DNA they found we asked the Pima County Sheriff's Department about the ABC tip that Department sent the following quote the Pima County Sheriff's Department has worked in coordination with the FBI since the beginning of the investigation this is not new information as previously stated by the sheriff the private laboratory we utilize in Florida continues to share information with the FBI laboratory and other partner labs across the country DNA analysis remains ongoing

31:33and this investigation is active now when there is a match in a DNA case most of the time it comes from the criminal database what's called quotas and that database is assembled when people are arrested and DNA samples are taken at that time at least in most cases now a new development in the world of DNA evidence is a lot of these ancestry sites or at least a few of these ancestry sites will with the person's permission share DNA information that they have put in that database really in the interest of finding out more about their ancestors back to the 1800s and so on but in some cases that has allowed investigators to come up with a trace and go for relative to relative and actually make an arrest and solve a case and one of the more recent and prominent cases like that was a case in California where that technique helped find a serial killer reported so again that was a heavy duty political answer given by the Pima County Sheriff's Office but

32:37I think it really qualified the fact that they didn't initially send the DNA to the FBI lab they sent it to the Miami lab sent in these reports and they admitted that in their statement so again we'll stand by our opening of this show this has delayed potentially delayed the investigation and potentially delayed justice because now it's going to be at least two and a half more much more probably a time before someone is identified in this case Mike yeah it was appears that the Pima County Sheriff the very the first week or first couple of days at least we're going to go on this case well you take this case alone and so they had actually done the crime scene as you said they process the crime scene and following their own procedures like within 72 hours they there was news reports of them already mailing the sample to the Miami genealogical lab

33:42when the FBI was called in like within another 48 hours to 72 hours they try to get that back they wanted that back so there was a lot of back and forth if you get if you go back over the news reports from the first two weeks of February you could you'll find stuff with the FBI and the Pima County Sheriff's pretty much arguing over this and the FBI wanting that sample saying you know we we need that sample for our lab and but the Miami lab was considered by the Pima County Sheriff to be their lab of choice and so that it went there so that just shows that in the very beginning Pima County wanted to do this all alone but they soon realized they somewhere long they were a little bit in over their head and they wisely called in the FBI but didn't know that there's no doubt that this actually delayed things let's hope not irretrievably delayed things but yeah it did delay things yeah you know yesterday Brian and to did a report on this and he got CC more on the show

34:43which I I had tried to get her on about I don't know a year two years ago and I guess because I'm a widow widow podcast she didn't come on my show but she seems she goes on all the TV shows all the time it seems a caller and she's she's a phone call away but she didn't come on the show I'd love to have a come on the show anyway anyway this is Brian Anton from yesterday so essentially hairs that have been found inside Nancy got through his home are now being tested by the FBI after already going to the Florida lab so again he just confirms that he just confirmed that the report is a little bit deceptive in a way so hairs that have been recovered inside Nancy got through his house are now going to the FBI after having been sent by the Miami lab then he qualified it so if there's not definitive evidence of that three or four different reports from the

35:46national media just said exactly what we said Mike yeah and then unfortunately with when you got something like this how the Nella Pima County Sheriff is not the New York City Police Department okay it's not the LAPD with Chicago Police Department they're a small county department and for whatever reason they didn't even make a phone call once you found out who you know Nancy got through was and realized this is this is going to be one of those totally very celebrated cases and this is going to everybody is going to be watching they got off on the wrong foot let's hope that this doesn't really turn into a retrievable loss that the FBI with greater technological ability can do other things that the Miami lab although good can't do and let's fingers cross about that yeah you know Mike just I don't want to hop on this but there's also a chain of custody

36:46issue when you play games like this right chain of custody as you want the least amount of people touching evidence as possible because defense attorneys make their living off of that make their living off of trying to to qualify evidence because too many people touched it and that's what did in the simplest way that's what chain of custody is back to Brian Enten why would they need to go to the FBI lab if they've already been sent to the Florida lab I'm going to have CC Moron in a second here genealogist and FBI I'm an DNA expert to explain that and the answer is actually very interesting and I'm going to let her explain it because she can explain it much better than I am can because she's the expert also Pima County Sheriff put out a statement regarding this new reporting they say Pima County Sheriff's Department has worked with the FBI since the beginning of the Guthrie investigation this is not new information the private lab will utilize in Florida continues to share information with the FBI lab and other partner labs

37:47across the country DNA analysis remains ongoing and when they say other partner labs across the country this is because remember they've been having issues with some of the DNA that is mixed and to separate it out can be a complicated process so other labs may have different technology the FBI may have different technology which is why this evidence is now being sent out to the FBI to test but again the hairs in particular are interesting and that's what I want to talk to CC more about and find out you know is this progress could this mean that we are actually getting closer to some real progress in the Nancy Guthrie case CC thank you for joining me I know it was late notice with this kind of just developing here within the last couple of hours but I want to see what you think is going on behind the scenes here because what I have for my source is that DNA evidence from Nancy Guthrie's home has been sent to the FBI lab for advanced analysis and the evidence includes hairs found in Guthrie's home so the fact that it's hairs what does that

38:54tell you well I've been really hoping that maybe they did have some hair to work with because of the more recent advancements in the field hair absolutely can make the case solvable so I'm really excited and the fact that they sent it to the FBI is interesting to me because they don't have the technology to extract snips from rootless hair and I am assuming it's rootless hair because if it had a root it would be really quite straightforward and the lab in Florida would have already done that and maybe the case would already be solved and so this is very likely a rootless hair or hair shaft which until recently we were all told did not contain any useful DNA for forensics or for this type of analysis so the FBI regularly works with a company called Australia forensics and UC Santa Cruz founded by Dr. Richard Ed Green who is brilliant and he is one of those people I love that proved everyone else wrong when he was able to refine a technology create and refine a technology to

39:57extract snip profiles from rootless hair and I personally have helped solve six cases I think it is now that only had rootless hair as the physical evidence and there are many many more that have been solved and are in the process of being solved so it opens up many thousands of cases for being able to finally be solved that don't have any other type of DNA evidence so I've talked about this a lot in this case that I was hoping there might be the opportunity to find some hair now we just have what you do if your online store converted 36% more shoppers you could take 36% more vacation another peanut coada yes please open a new retail location with 36% more square feet fantastic hire 36% more help you're hired and you're hired shopify has the world's best converting checkout up to 36% better than other e-commerce platforms what you do with those extra sales is up to you switch to shopify today at shopify.com slash listen and get a $1 trial shopify.com slash listen insurance isn't one size fits all that's why drivers have enjoyed progressives name your

41:02price tool for years now with the name your price tool you tell them what you want to pay and they'll show you options that fit your budget so whether you're picking out your first policy or just looking for something that works better for you and your family they make it easy to see your options visit progressive.com find a rate that works for you with the name your price tool progressive casualty insurance company and affiliates price and coverage match limited by state law on cold days I have big goals and no time to cook factor makes healthy eating easy with fully prepared meals designed by dietitians and crafted by chefs so eat well without planning or cooking quality functional ingredients including lean proteins colorful veggies whole food ingredients and healthy fats I like the high protein meals because it goes well with my workout schedule and I'm never hungry 100 rotating weekly meals to keep things fresh and delicious through the winter options include high protein calorie smart Mediterranean diet GLP one support and ready to eat salads

42:03always fresh never frozen ready in about two minutes no prep no stress head to factor meals.com slash crime 50 off and use code crime 50 off to get 50% off and free breakfast for a year eat like a pro this month with factor do subscribers only berries by plan one free breakfast item per box for one year while subscription is active do you have ten thousand dollars or more in credit card maybe you're even barely getting by making minimum payments with credit card debt hitting record highs national debt relief offers real debt relief solutions for people struggling to keep up these options may reduce a large portion of credit card debt for those who qualify you don't need a declared bankruptcy and you may be able to pay back less than you oh regardless of your credit national debt relief has already reduced the credit card debt for more than five hundred fifty thousand consumers so don't wait if you owe ten twenty or even hundreds of thousands of dollars in credit card debt you can now take advantage of this financial debt relief

43:04as the cost of living increases to find out how much you could save visit national debt relief.com that's national debt relief.com I hope that it is the person or persons one of the persons who kidnapped Nancy and so you know Mike love love CC more she really explains this stuff to the lay person and she makes it understandable but one of the things that we would want to know and everyone that's watching would want to know how did they know that these hairs belong to the purple or perpetrators and one of the things we suggested early on I was sure they they have completed this was to take DNA elimination samples from the family from anyone that had permission and or authority to be in that house and may have left their DNA hairs or whatever inside that home more complicated than it might seem because what we had thought early on in this

44:10case and I still believe that is that the perpetrators in this case are known to Nancy Guthrie so that complicates matters a little bit right because now when they test all these hairs and they come up I mean I'd be interested to know with investigative gene genetic genealogy and that's the step after SNPs single nucleotide polymorphism which they amplify the DNA they have to build a family tree and as that reporter just said that was on that they have to build the family tree from the DNA using one of the genetic genealogical sites and now so there's so many steps to this and then there's a whole investigatory step of running things and finding documents and finding things on the computer and to build this family tree but that's how it's done Mike

45:12yeah there's no guarantee that this is you know the the the thing the one thing that can crack this case wide open CC Moore's being is being you know a little guarded she's like yeah this could be it but it could not be you know let's see where as you said you've got to take the elimination DNA samples from everyone who you know has been authorized to be there from plumber to electrician to a groundskeeper to family member things like that all are also where was the hair from was say for instance he had helped changing her bed linens and housekeeping did you find that hair from inside the bed linens of of Nancy's house that morning that they you they went there with the crime scene unit and found it where was was found in the bathroom was found in the kitchen you know as so that is also very important because this could potentially be the breakthrough but it may not be it may just lead to another dead end being I hope not but it could lead to another dead end

46:16saying this happens to be belonged to someone who we we didn't even think of yet but who is another person who may have already been had permission maybe it was a neighbor down the street that had stopped by we don't know it's guarded optimism CC Moore's right I think it's guarded optimism at this point but you know fingers crossed because you you got you say you got to take all those elimination DNA samples and come up with possible suspects and even if you do get a hit as you say it's the old fashioned way then you got to look at the technological data phone data email text messaging and all those other things it's a complicated complicated thing this is just one complicated facet of a very large investigation you know Mike also you know we talk about the needle in the haystack type thing I believe and I don't have the exact amount but when you go into and someone's home for example you lose 50 to 75 particles of hair provided you have here on your

47:23head just being in that person's home so we we actually shed hair and you may not see it because it may be not visible to the naked eye but that happens to be a fact so people shed hair and as we said the theory low cards principle of exchange when you go into a crime scene you bring something with you and when you leave you take something away from that crime scene and that's has to do with cross contamination let me get back to CC Moore. I'm sure you understand you currently so before when there was hair found that didn't have the root it was just deemed to not really be that useful and that has now changed. Yes so you could get mitochondrial DNA from it only mitochondrial DNA can be good for helping to roll people out it's not so good for ruling people in because so many people share the same profile and so it was kept in many of these cases fortunately but not analyze

48:25because there wasn't really anything to do with it genetically now they might have looked at it to see if it was consistent with suspects hair or the victims hair for instance but not any type of DNA analysis so that's changed dramatically over the last couple of years or few years with Dr. Ed Green's innovation and his great team over at Australia and the FBI is regularly using them they used them in the Gilgo Beach murder case and that is one of the things that helped them zero in on Rex Heuerman and there hasn't been a lot of talk on that actually but that was really important because they set a case precedent there when the judge allowed that to be entered or was going to allow it to be in the evidence in the trial which now isn't going to happen so it's it's something you know Mike I just have to a CC was 1000% correct here but one of the things I want to raise the issue of it because she mentioned the Gilgo Beach case in Rex Heuerman for 12 years

49:32there was really like no movement but while there was no movement on the Gilgo Beach case they preserved the evidence it was preserved for many many many many years all the way back to 1993 and this case was the Gilgo Beach case was just when you looked at it from afar you were really baffled by it because there was so many different things that happened you know the bodies dumped in different places body parts found here body parts found there Shannon Gilbert found 10 miles from Gilgo and at first it was thought to be one of the Gilgo Beach victims them now they're pretty sure at least the Suffolk County DA and the Suffolk County medical examiner's office believes she was not but all of this was put together and CC was right the DNA helped put it together but there was many branches on this tree and the thing that actually

50:32identified Rex Heuerman was in a police report that sat for 12 years and no one put it together and it was that he had that avalanche that Chevy avalanche vehicle that was described by by a PIMP for one of the victims and they couldn't find that car and at two months after they put together the Gilgo Beach task force a state investigator a female detective from the state police New York state police found that car and identified the owner the owner was Rex Heuerman now the rest of the evidence the DNA and everything else is just a cherry on top of that probable cause cake Mike yeah you know the thing about the DNA and why I saw so many cold cases and doesn't in other cold cases is the preservation of the evidence you know those girls bodies were out

51:35in a sandu in the the the first group those four remember he was indicted for three out of the four originally and they were the it was like the little cemetery he used they were out buried under some sand it was rain snow you name it the weather and the hair managed to stay a viable because one the bodies were recovered after being you know for a couple of years under in the weather they actually preserved it correctly after they got it and so when you have evidence like this preserved in in a in an environment where it stays viable the the technology then advances over the years and over the decades you can then use that but there are many times that that it samples are are mishandles I see you and I have seen mishandles rape kits and things like that in the NYPD and it loses all value and so preserving as much as many

52:35issues that the Suffolk County Police Department had all those years and they were they were hundreds of issues they did actually preserve that in that the samples of the hair and other things perfectly well and that led to the solving of the case finally but you combine that with just a sharp eyed state trooper go wait a second this wasn't done properly let me just do this and and and she came up with the absolute correct answer on the on the Chevy Avalent that combined with all of that you know old DNA samples that were responding now to new technology sealed his fate you know like some of them asked you know what I lost the person that asked what was the hair oh here it is at at at Fran Carrier 1062 what kind of hair pubo beard questions I don't know they didn't say that they just said that they had to have CC Moore said it was probably a hair without a root

53:42because if it they what would you do if your online store converted 36 percent more shoppers you could take 36 percent more vacation another peanut carada yes please open a new retail location with 36 percent more square feet fantastic higher 36 percent more health you're hired and you're hired shop of I has the world's best converting checkout up to 36 percent better than other e-commerce what you do with those extra sales is up to you switch to Shopify today at shopify.com slash listen and get a $1 trial shopify.com slash listen insurance isn't one size fits all that's why drivers have enjoyed progressives name your price tool for years now with the name your price tool you tell them what you want to pay and they'll show you options that fit your budget so whether you're picking out your first policy or just looking for something that works better for you and your family they make it easy to see your options visit progressive.com find a rate that works for you with the name your price tool progressive casualty insurance company and affiliates price and coverage match limited by state law on cold days I have big goals and no time to cook

54:47factor makes healthy eating easy with fully prepared meals designed by dieticians and crafted by chefs so eat well without planning or cooking quality functional ingredients including lean proteins colorful veggies whole food ingredients and healthy fats I like the high protein meals because it goes well with my workout schedule and I'm never hungry 100 rotating weekly meals to keep things fresh and delicious through the winter options include high protein calorie smart Mediterranean diet GLP one support and ready to eat salads always fresh never frozen ready in about two minutes no prep no stress head to factor meals dot com slash crime 50 off and use code crime 50 off to get 50% off and free breakfast for a year eat like a pro this month with factor new subscribers only varies by plan one free breakfast item per box for one year while subscription is active do you have ten thousand dollars or more in credit card debt maybe you're even barely getting by making minimum payments with credit card debt hitting record highs national debt

55:51relief offers real debt relief solutions for people struggling to keep up these options may reduce a large portion of credit card debt for those who qualify you don't need a declared bankruptcy and you may be able to pay back less than you owe regardless of your credit national debt relief has already reduced the credit card debt for more than five hundred fifty thousand consumers so don't wait if you owe ten twenty or even hundreds of thousands of dollars in credit card debt you can now take advantage of this financial debt relief as the cost of living increases to find out how much you could save visit national debt relief dot com that's national debt relief dot com had a route that the lab in Miami would have been able to do the tests on it but without the route you need to do the snips test single locally attired polymorphism amplified the DNA so now it's getting out of my pay grade to talk like a scientist but let me go back to cc more who is qualified to speak about this much more than I am saying that the FBI would have known

56:53immediately was very valuable and I'm a sort of a little strategy and go directly to Australia but it makes sense perhaps that it would go to the FBI and then to Australia you know they might have some processing they want to do first and I don't want to be a Debbie Downer but I'm just thinking about hair in someone's house like isn't there a good chance this could be Nancy's hair or this could be just a family member's hair or anybody's hair that was in the house and maybe not the suspect absolutely yeah I mean it's it's again kind of a Hail Mary like we've talked about more recently in this case everything is getting to that point I feel because so much time has gone by but you just never know what that one little piece of evidence is that can break a case wide open so we can just hold out hope that this is going to be from an unknown male that they aren't able to trace to you know being in that home for another reason and sometimes you don't know if it's male or female I mean you don't really unless it's long and died it might be more obvious like in the

57:58Gilgo Beach murder case is some of those hairs traced back to Rex human's wife and his daughter and so they have to process the hair to determine is it male or female do they always send the items like the hair around to the different labs or are they just sending the data that's already been collected they would have to actually send the physical hair to Australia because they are the ones that have that capability to extract that DNA from the hair shaft now this is something I know that DNA labs international has been working on for a long time as well I have not yet seen any successful cases from rootless hair in their coming out of their lab though but it may be something that they are hoping to be able to do in this case I just saw them at a conference I know they're working very hard on working with hair shafts not only for SNPs but for STRs they mentioned that during one of the presentations this week now that would be a huge breakthrough if you can extract

59:02STRs because that is that courted missible standard law enforcement profile that has been used for many many years for decades and that has yet to be accomplished and so that is something that I heard this week that many labs are working toward right now is it possible that we're just trying to think because we only have like vague information about what's going on is it possible that this is not rootless hair that this is DNA from regular hair and they're trying to do genetic genealogy and that's why that would go to the FBI that doesn't really make sense to me because if it had a root that's a very standard type of analysis it would not be mixed it would be a single source profile from that root and I don't see a reason they would have already started genetic genealogy through DNA labs international they have their own program to do that if there had been a hair found with

1:00:04root that traced back to an unknown male in that home I suspect this case would already be solved so that leads me to believe it's much more likely it's a rootless hair otherwise it just would have stayed in that lab in Florida and remember they said that there was DNA that was mixed from inside the home and that that was one of the challenges that they were having how does that fit into this new piece of information because like you said if they have hairs that's not mixed right right right it might be contaminated and they have to clean it and we see that a lot with rootless hair because oftentimes it does have contamination but it's only on the outside so they're able to clean that and get past that to the DNA of the person who had that hair on their head so the mixed sample would just be a completely different sample okay so this is what I've been talking about a lot was the hope that they had dozens or hundreds of other pieces of evidence that they were processing or maybe went back and found after the first DNA collection because that that mixed sample

1:01:08is going to take some time clearly based on what we've heard and so I was hopeful there might be something else that would pop up in this case that could be a faster way of identifying this person so I think these are two completely separate things okay so these are different items that they found the hair and then something else that's mixed right and that's more likely going to be something like transfer DNA maybe a doorknob or maybe a bed sheet something like that in her bedding you wouldn't think there'd be a lot of mix there but you never know you know does she do her own laundry does she have a house cleaner that type of thing and so this I'm more hopeful about this if they really do have a rootless hair and it is from that kidnapper then this is going to be the piece of information that will solve the case does rootless hair take a long time to analyze generally it does yeah my experience is it can take a number of months I'm sure they would push this to the

1:02:11top of the priority list because it's still a hot case versus many of the cases we're using rootless hair on that are you know decades old and so hopefully it will be quicker than my experience has been with it but it can take many many months and sometimes it takes multiple tries the first couple times they just don't get anything or they don't get a viable profile or enough of the snips out of it and they have to keep trying and eventually they're able to do that who decides like when we hear okay went to Florida labs now it's going to go to FBI it might go to a different a couple of different labs to like who's made is that the is that the law enforcement agency making that decision let's let's yeah it would typically be Pima but once the FBI becomes involved things can really change and so it depends who is in charge of this piece of evidence if it's the FBI I think it's very likely it will go to Australia because they work with them so successfully and so often if it is up to Pima County it may go back to DNA labs international to try

1:03:12to extract that snip profile from the rootless hair and maybe even they're working on trying to get an STR profile out of it but overall this to you is positive it's really exciting actually I mean I don't want to get everyone's hopes up too much because we've hit so many brick walls here but it's the first positive thing I've heard for a while so let's just keep all our fingers crossed that this isn't from a known visitor to her home or one of the family members or Nancy herself and it you know it really could help push the case across the finish line so that's a CC more and one of the rare positive things we've had on this case in the last in the last few months Mike that yeah it's DNA and again I can't help but think of how it was delayed though and I know I want to be positive about this and I want to hope that this these hairs that came back and it's one of the perpetrators and not a family member not someone

1:04:12who worked for Nancy Guthrie who had permission and or authority to be in that home but CC more is excited so who are the hell are we not to be Mike? yeah you got to be excited because you know this take this new technology we rootless hair that was thought not to be as valuable really at all compared to say a hair with a root on it this is important you know it is a breakthrough perhaps in this case if all goes well fingers crossed you know hopefully just a little bit optimistic in this case let's hope it doesn't hit a brick wall like she said and if it doesn't and actually works out well as can be as they expect it could you may have you may have it does no guarantee you may get a DNA profile then when you upload it you see where it doesn't match anything let's hope it matches something from codeus from it from another website like an ancestry.com website

1:05:16we don't know it's going to take a while but it's possible you need that one breakthrough but then you need that to lead to a positive verification on some other website absolutely from the chat at sandy in the beach and sandy by the way this is a great question so all family members are automatically excluded and why sorry just trying to understand no you don't have to be sorry as I said this is a great question no the family is not excluded but they already have them they're identified so they're interviewed so if there is anything that you can use the word in a criminal investigation like this kidnapping potentially a murder of excluding someone you almost never exclude anyone till you find the person a person that did this but they can be excluded in the terms of oh their DNA was found in the house and they're really not a suspect based on our interviews our investigation of their cell phone

1:06:21of their digital objects of their finances of their interrelationships with our family with them with Nancy so that is how they would be excluded but you need to identify and do what's called elimination DNA so you know who did have permission and or authority to be in that house because let's face it the kidnappers were committing a crime kidnapping potentially murder burglary all of those things so they did not have permission and or authority to be in the house so if they find DNA that belongs to an unidentified person that very well could be the bad guy or bad guys that they're looking for and that's what we hope for in this case Mike yeah now where you find it is important what kind of shape that DNA is what kind of shape that sample is that hair these things last for years if depending on how where you find them they shelter what you do if

1:07:24you're online store converted 36 percent more shoppers you could take 36 percent more vacation another peanut carada yes please open a new retail location with 36 percent more square feet fantastic higher 36 percent more help you're hired and you're hired shop of i has the world's best converting checkout up to 36 percent better than other e-commerce platforms what you do with those extra sales is up to you switch to Shopify today at shopify.com slash listen and get a $1 trial shopify.com slash listen you're listening to this podcast so I know you've got a curious mind here's a helpful fact you may not know yet drivers who switch and save with progressive save over $900 on average pop over to progressive.com answer some questions and you'll get a quick quote with discounts that are easy to come by in fact 99% of their auto customers earn at least one discount visit progressive.com and see if you can enjoy a little cashback progressive casualty insurance company and affiliates national average 12 month savings of $946 by new customers surveyed who saved with progressive between June 2024 and May 2025 potential savings will vary on cold days

1:08:25I have big goals and no time to cook factor makes healthy eating easy with fully prepared meals designed by dieticians and crafted by chefs so eat well without planning or cooking quality functional ingredients including lean proteins colorful veggies whole food ingredients and healthy fats I like the high protein meals because it goes well with my workout schedule and I'm never hungry 100 rotating weekly meals to keep things fresh and delicious through the winter options include high protein calorie smart Mediterranean diet GLP one support and ready to eat salads always fresh never frozen ready in about two minutes no prep no stress head to factor meals dot com slash crime 50 off and use code crime 50 off to get 50% off and free breakfast for a year eat like a pro this month with factor new subscribers only berries by plan one free breakfast item per box for one year while subscription is active do you have $10,000 or more in credit card

1:09:25debt maybe you're even barely getting by making minimum payments with credit card debt hating record highs national debt relief offers real debt relief solutions for people struggling to keep up these options may reduce a large portion of credit card debt for those who qualify you don't need a declared bankruptcy and you may be able to pay back less than you owe regardless of your credit national debt relief has already reduced the credit card debt for more than 550,000 consumers so don't wait if you owe 10 20 or even hundreds of thousands of dollars in credit card debt you can now take advantage of this financial debt relief as the cost of living increases to find out how much you could save visit national debt relief dot com that's national debt relief dot com they out in the open Denise Griffiths asked great case about the Gilgol Beach girls and about the fact that Rex Sherman wrapped those four girls the first four that they bodies are found wrapped them in in burlap and they did actually preserve help preserve the hair for for you know the police to come and then be able to then preserve it in their own you know

1:10:30property clerks office the answer is yes in a weird way Rex Sherman actually helped ensure that that DNA would remain viable when he put those girls all in burlap because that helped insulate it so great question miss miss Griffiths really good question yeah some really informed people in the chat and you know something as as during my long academic career which I was not a superstar student I did the best I could maybe a bee a bee plus maybe but one of the things that I always heard from many professors many doctors of their their area of expertise is that the only dumb question is the question that's not asked and that's true because how many of us have questions you don't want to ask it because you're afraid that it might not be you know people might look at you like oh if you don't know the answer to that meanwhile if you're in a lecture hall there could be a hundred other people there that want to know the answer to that very same question that you're

1:11:33asking but feel dumb asking so the as I said as I learned through my academic career the only dumb question is the one that's not asked and that's that happens to be true you know so with the DNA here so let's sort of wrap this up now so where does this leave us it leaves us watching one critical question can the DNA recovered from Nancy Guthrie's house be developed into a profile a geneological leads strong enough to identify the person who was there if the answer is yes then this investigation may be far more advanced than the public realizes if the answer is no that does not end the case but it does mean detectives have to keep building from surveillance timelines witness statements digital evidence and every other piece of physical evidence they've got but make no mistake if the FBI is using snip testing here SNP single nucleotide polymorphism that is not routine that is a sign investigators believe this evidence may still have real value in a case like this

1:12:39that could change everything so this is a positive very much a positive happening and I want to report it as such even though we started off with a little pessimistic we're going to end it with being optimistic folks just to let you know that this show is sponsored by Fandall on the believe network and I look I enjoyed doing this show today I learned things all the time myself through covering this topic you can see professor Mike don't let that that title professor fool you he can learn some new things too so Mike your final thoughts you know Bill I think Matt Murphy was on a show and he said this is a definitely solvable case it may take a long time so everyone you know please understand that that scientific information that in the investigation of the DNA even CC Moore said it's it's going to take a long time and so therefore we have to be prepared for

1:13:44that stay optimistic that the case will be solved I can't be optimistic for other facets of the case in terms of you know miss Guthrie's physical well-being but this case will definitely be solved but he's just going to take a while absolutely from a little of that and a little of this has the FBI cleared anyone no and that's not a good habit of any law enforcement agency to say someone's cleared you don't do that because you could wind up with your foot in your mouth you know you can't just say someone's cleared that's not in my in my mind that's not that's not professional maybe you could say we don't consider that person a suspect at this time that gives you an out if they become a suspect later on you know but to say they're cleared I don't think that sound investigative lingo to be using in it in a case like this anyway folks again if you're not subscribed hit the subscribe button thumbs up like us share us tell your family members about us

1:14:46and we appreciate everyone that is part of the police of the cuffs youtube community and Mike do you have any less things to say or did you just already say that I just already said just keep optimistic that's all okay absolutely folks i'm Bill Cannon from police of the cuff on behalf of myself and the police of the cuff family and professor Mike Geary thank you so much for tuning in today until the next time have a great day everyone and god bless you get a jump on next summer with verbose early booking deals don't wait to claim your dreams summer spot whether that includes a good porch swing or a poolside lounger when you book early

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