Everest Short: Ben Ayers

0:00Well, welcome back to the call conversation. I am of course your host, Kenton Cool, and I am currently on route to Climb Mount Everest again. Now, during this expedition, what we hope to do is produce a series of podcasts where we interview people who are synonymous with Everest. And the idea is to try to get their views and opinions about what Everest means today. And by that we mean, what does it mean to them as individuals? What does it mean to the climbing community as a whole? And what does it mean to the local people of Nepal? Now, we're going to start with the amazing journalist, filmmaker, philanthropist Ben As. Now, Ben is a phenomenal person. I've known him for many, many years. And he runs

1:07a, I suppose you would call it a news service called Everest Live. And he will be based at Everest based camp throughout the season, reporting what's happening on Everest, the stories, the drama, the news, as it happens. So it's real source information, not the the muddled information that perhaps we see in mainstream media. Now, Ben is, as I said, a phenomenal individual. And at the start of this episode, we just get a little snippet into what motivates Ben and why he's been a resident of Nepal for some 25 years. He is quite simply the article of Everest today. So without further ado, let's jump in to the short episode with Ben As. So Ben, Ben As, why don't you just spend, because I'm guessing

2:08that not all of our audience would know who you are. And at some stage, we need to sit down and get your complete backstory. Sure. But for now, how about just a quick intro? Because out of all the people I know, you have probably spent more time in Nepal than anybody else. Yeah, I've spent more people time in Nepal than most people I know. Yeah, so I'm Ben Ares. As you mentioned, I'm from America. And I've lived in Nepal now for since 1998. So that's, you know, 26 years. 20, wait, no, 2006, 28 years. I've been here long enough. I've forgotten. Yeah, totally. Yeah. So I've been here 28 years. And I came, when I was younger, I had ambitions to climb. I think that, you know, I was, I climbed a lot in New England where I grew up and wanted to come try out the Himalayas and all that. But then

3:12like many people, and I'm sure to an extent, you can't, and like I got here, came for the mountains, but it really was the people that hooked me and kept me here. And what really did it for me? I think there's a part of me too. Like I was attracted for climbing. I was attracted to, I think I was trying to figure out, you know, how to, relax a better way to put it or for fear of being like, I don't know, a little purple. Like, I think I was trying to figure out how to be a man, you know, and climbers are very manly. And, I mean, we've all seen your jaw, can't you? Sure. The second time you mentioned my jaw, I don't think my jaw. You've got a great jaw. I mean, the only person I think that has a better jaw in the climbing community than you is Conrad Anchor. And no one will be Conrad. But anyway, I digress. So I was just trying, I felt like climbing like that kind of daring and strength was what I was attracted to. And then I saw the mountain porters here.

4:18Those guys are way more badass. That's where I first came across him. Didn't you do some documentary? Yeah, I was in a BBC documentary. Yeah. And I worked as a porter. And because, you know, it's all the energy I was initially putting in the climbing. Suddenly, there are these dudes that are carrying like 250 pounds. Barefoot, you know. And, and they were like, really cool guys. Like, really interesting people. And I, when I first came, I learned the language. And that's, that was my entree. So I could talk to these guys, you know. And, yeah, they were like poets. And they were, I'm not warmed up back up. Yeah, actually, let's go upstairs. Yeah, they were poets. And they, you know, they were just really intelligent, kind people, which I think, you know, of course, we all know that. But it wasn't something that was obvious to me because I came from such a different background. And the porters, we should just establish, when you say the porters, the dudes that are carrying, so if somebody's trekked to every space camp,

5:21yeah, it's the dudes carrying their bags. Yeah. And then, you know, they were carrying the big loads of Coca-Cola. Exactly. But actually, they are the backbone of everything here. Everything here was, you know, the remote villages need to have supplies brought to them somehow, whether it's, you know, every region, whether it's the Anapurna, where it's Langtang, you know, anywhere, anywhere. And even in just like, in the places where trackers don't go, you know, these porters were the long haul truckers. They were the supply chain for the whole country, you know, and I just was fascinated with it. So I, yeah, I learned how to carry with a timeline and spent months and months just hanging out with these dudes, eating what they ate, sleeping in caves, like just rattling around. That documentary came out in 99. And I had just started a program, you know, nothing that I noticed was that, it was really obvious then, but back in the late 90s, early 2000s, the way porters were treated

6:24on expeditions and on treks was really, really bad, you know, and we, we'd sometimes see a dozen porters a year dying from altitude sickness, totally preventable. And so I started an organization that was trying to help reduce that and try to make their lives a little better. And basically, I've been here ever since, you know, I felt that I had learned so much from them that I wanted to give something back. And I just keep learning here. I keep, I feel like I still haven't paid my dad. And home is, he's got my dude. Yeah. As my, my dad passed away a couple of years ago. And as my and my wife's parents have gotten older, I've started to spend more time back in Vermont. And you know, I was one of the things that Paul's taught me is the importance of family. So right now, I'm about a five months in America. I also like to ski, come and just not a great ski destination. Well, is it great? Is it Craig Kloneko? Well, what's with the head is ski guy?

7:27Oh God, what is his name? Cray, Cray somebody. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Up in Anna Pernay. Yeah, I'm also slightly skipped a little bit about how an avalanche it is. But, but you know, Goumar gets fun now. Yeah, I'd have been there. Yeah, it's a trip. It's a good time. Yeah, well, yeah, exactly. And so, but I mean, I catch you a base camp when we do proper call conversation deep dive into what floats you about, but love it. But today you are Everest live. So that's my latest project. Yeah, so because you're like a size of interview, please. Your journalist, filmmaker, producer, like Jack Maltre, did anything to do with yeah, media. Yeah, totally. I mean, I'm a storyteller again. There we go. That's the word now. That's the popular word now. No, so like my tell you, yeah, Nepal, I live in Nepal again.

8:29I'm really on trend. No, so like kind of my story in a nutshell is I started working in the nonprofit sector trying to give back to porters, but I always wanted to write and tell stories and make films. And then that Porter nonprofit led to another nonprofit that I ran back in Porter communities. And I just started discovering these incredible stories and worked with I would have had the was good was fortunate enough to like be connected with climbing filmmakers. Ronan Osturch is one of my closest friends. And we just started doing film projects on the side. And so when I kind of wrapped up my nonprofit career, I've gone full time into filmmaking. And so then ever s live what I'm doing now is it's almost full circle for me. It's going back to that work that I started in and around Mount Everest. And what I see with Everest live is that there's kind of two things. One is that everyone on the planet has an idea about Mount Everest.

9:34They have an opinion about Mount Everest. But the people who cover Mount Everest in the media don't get it right. It's all they get some of the story right. But it tends to be really negative coverage. And it doesn't show the depth of everything that Everest is. And I also feel personally like there's great things on Everest and there's room for improvement. And for me now that I sort of have you know abandoned my climbing career. And also like I know I'm not cut out to be an 8,000 meter climber telling those stories and shining light on that. It's probably the best way I know how to contribute positively to the industry. And my interest in it is probably you know primarily trying to show the stories of all the different Napoli workers on the mountain. And to do that we have to tell the stories of the foreign climbers too because it's interesting.

10:36But ultimately I hope that like simply with Everest Live if we can list the name and the background of everyone who dies on the mountain this year. There's an understanding of why we need to make it safer right. But also if I can tell the stories of people like you or all the people that are coming to Everest with a dream. It's also inspiring and it's encouraging the industry which is a great thing for Nepal's economy. There's so many like hundreds of thousands of people who's found who them and their families depend on Everest and everything that's ever adjacent to survive. And it's I'm going to jump in in here to try to because we were talking about it only earlier. The numbers of trackers, certainly in the Everest region, and I'm assuming across the pool, you know the Anapanos, or Banaslu or Langtang or whatever. They're significantly down on this year

11:42aren't they? Way down, crazy down. But climbing isn't. So yeah I mean we're probably I don't know the numbers but some people are saying it's down by like two thirds. Yeah the number I can hear about 50%. Yeah yeah exactly and that's all due to global instability, everything is happening in the Middle East. Trekkers you know they're on vacation. Climbers are on a different kind of vacation and they're a little more committed you know and so we're looking at you know already there's I think 410 Everest permits that's going to go up. I bet you'll be around 450 this year which is a good healthy year. Yeah pretty much similar to last year was it 470? Yeah I think so. Yep about the same the year before. Yep and what's the knock on effect? Yeah if the trackers are down I mean I was here at 50% yeah the trackers down 50% what does that actually mean to the local people? Well it's interesting you know because you also Nepal like anywhere there's a pretty large wealth gap

12:49and so how that money is distributed of course isn't necessarily equitable but what you see is when trekking goes down there's less jobs on the bottom of the pyramid because that's where the majority of the jobs are but they pay they don't pay as well but that's also the population that needs those jobs the most. So there's less bags of carry but there's also less coaks to drink there's less care seen to burn there's less rice to eat and so the porter loads go down and the porters are looking for more work. What we're seeing in Nepal that's happening you know as you know this has happened for a number of years but you know people in Nepal what is it 20% of the countries abroad? 10-20% look at you know sending money back 30 some odd percent of the GDP here comes from abroad and remittance money and so one of the things that trekking and climbing provides is an opportunity for people to stay in the country to stay with their families and to

13:52make a living and when the global economy starts to constrict and people stop coming here that puts more pressure on those families and it drives more people to look for work elsewhere and you know porters have it tough but like you know the way that the remittance economy here works like that porter if he goes to Dubai or Malaysia you know they take out loans from middleman at exorbitant rates and they'll work two years just to pay off their loans and make enough money to pay off the next loan so they only make money after they've been gone from their families for three years and that it's like not that dissimilar from what they could work what they could earn on you know a couple good tracks so it's it's a real conundrum you know and with the numbers of trekkers being down huh obviously there's not as much work for the porters does that drive

14:57prices down as well? No probably I mean well I don't know I mean I'm not an economist can I think I don't know I don't know how to I don't know if that's true I mean I I think probably it drives prices down for foreigners because lodges are more desperate to have people staying there so they're gonna have have offers it's gonna drive the price of trekkers down but when you drive the price of a trekkedown and you have a large unemployed workforce first thing you're gonna do is pay your porters less so like you know on the walk up the hill today I was talking to I was just walking with this group of porters that were from these villages I used to work in and so we kind of knew each other and did they recognize you? Yeah yeah 100% 100% it must be awesome that's really fun and but we had you know we have a trust so they speak openly with me you know and like a porter going to ever space camp right now the going rate is 2000 rupees per day

15:58so that's I mean it's put into dollars or pounds to 2000 rupees was like 15 dollars yeah you know you know 10 10 pounds yeah so that hasn't really gone up significantly no in the last like 10 15 years exactly and and I think part of what we're talking about is why right lake yeah it looks like a swank mountain lodge yeah yeah yeah they used to be the amadablam lodge yeah exactly didn't there used to be an annery in here somewhere didn't it's a bit further up but then yeah so the porters make 2000 rupees a day and up here like dingbashay lowbashay one plate of dolbot of food is 800 rupees and so these guys are carrying 800 rupees for the porters that's for the porters yeah so these guys are carrying you know 30 kilos plus they're working hard

16:58so they're eating two plates of dolbot they're drinking a couple cups of tea they need to have breakfast because dolbot they only eat it like 11 and they're spending 21 2,200 rupees a day and one of the porters when I was walking up and I you know I was like so you you're basically working for tips and he's like yeah without tips we're just traveling and that's been the reality since 1999 when I started working with porters the wages have gone up but the same rate the price of dolbot has gone up yeah and so unfortunately that's you know that's where the industry has some room for improvement in terms of equity but it's hard because the porters are not a unified workforce it's not seen as like a professional career right so everyone works in this ad hoc way they don't have the bargain power it wouldn't be hard I mean I don't really know what the average base can't track cost me I know you can pick up like two and a half three thousand dollars

18:04yeah that sounds better right if you're like a I'm used to quite broadly a western client yep uh you know if you pay a hundred dollars more yeah it makes no impact to totally no even the price-sensitive foreign traveler right but that will make a big difference hundred percent to the porter to the economy to yeah everyone well and you know and the advice that I would give but sometimes you know because the porters are willing to work for two thousand rupees that increase in price doesn't always translate so my advice to foreigners is always you know pay for your trip but bring money for tips yeah and give it to the porter directly don't give it to the guide give it to the porter directly and that's probably the biggest impact as a tracker that you have on people's lives because that tip is you know a porter will do I don't

19:09know five trips a season right so that tip is possibly more possibly more but but they spend a lot of time waiting for work you know so I'm just saying like as an example if they do five trips a season that's ten trips a year that tip is ten percent of their income for the year and that might be a fifty dollar tip you know and that makes a big difference in their lives and it's good karma you know to be generous with them I mean it's staggering I don't know how many times I've been up here not many of you but yeah I didn't realize that the margins for the porters were were quite so tight yeah slash non-existent totally totally and it's like well I'm definitely going to tip boy but you know but the hard thing too is like there's a language barrier there's a structural barrier because you you you're dealing with your clients you're dealing with yourself you know foreigners it's not it's a lot to ask for them to be sleuthing this stuff out you get

20:11up in the morning eat your breakfast and your bag disappears yeah I eat it six thousand seven hours later yeah exactly and then you know you're tired and your bags in your room you know and it's really hard to know that it's hard to ask and inquire and you know it's absolutely staggering was when we were staying at Delightful Logic Riverdale and I just spent 1,200 rupees on a Wi-Fi Squatch card yeah precisely and now Christ yeah I mean dude the hotel I was just in right these people that are trying to get me to do some influencer stuff for their hotel you don't you drop me as such you gotta hate it they hate it but 250 bucks a night for their suite right so that's what a porter earns on a season yeah and yeah and talking about the season um because what what we trying to do with this little series of of slightly shorter and as I've already mentioned we've

21:16got to get you back on absolutely uh is you know what does the season look like now I know we're very Everest focused because you know you're off to report on Everest I'm off time hopefully Everest so and everyone says awesome we'll come to that in a minute yeah but but how do you see this season unfolding what with the uncertainty in the memories you know um numbers of people to down uh how do you see the the premium soon um season going this here yeah yeah I think for me as a journalist there's some job security in the season this year um there's the drama levels are already high and we're not even at base camp yet you know I think it's all gonna come down to the next three days okay so so this is carrot so we're talking about the icefall yeah yeah so

22:18I suspect many of the audience are probably heard because it is in mainstream media yep again being reported almost right I mean you're gonna do your it's right it's right her then the whole guide poisoning story was reported so there's some progress remember that one yeah yeah yeah which was totally fabricated but yeah so the things are truth in it I mean they had a cut to Ford yeah held up to fraud was there but to me the first like we're digressing but the first thing thing about this Everest guides are poisoning their clients the poisoning thing came out of one line in the Kathmandu post-report that has no source backing it up right I tried so hard to figure out where the source was it said guides were putting baking soda in the client's food and that's been a rumor for years the first time I heard about that happening was with an American expedition doctor doing it to their Nepali liaison officer so he wouldn't be a man yes and he would go home

23:19and they could get on with their expedition without the government looking over them right and that was in the seventies like this has been going on this rumor has happened for a time but to get headlines suddenly it's Everest yeah it's guides as poisoning it had nothing to do with with what was happening on the mountain yeah but we digress so yeah so we got so we got the we got the icefall when there's been a blockage hasn't it yeah there's a sketchy part of the ice fall that the icefall doctors are not willing to go through and you got to respect that but it's blocked up the whole process and Everest climbers are impatient people and but I never used to be I don't think I think you're right about that I think you're right about that we'll keep that full for the deep dive at Bayes County review yep and so basically now the icefall doctors all of the expedition companies got so frustrated with the delay after 10 days that they've decided and they've worked with the icefall doctors the SBCC they're combining forces

24:25and they're throwing a hole like another dozen Sherpas high altitude workers you know at the problem they're going up tomorrow and maybe they'll find a way through if they do the season I think we'll resume and it'll be late and we're going to see that first there's going to be a long line of people like right behind the road fixing team guarantee that yeah I would concur with that I have a sneaky suspicion that it might not be as late as we've worked as we fear as we fear yeah I hope you're right but I also feel like I mean because I think the expedition operators because they've got the rope fixing above cam 2 that's going to start via hill and yeah and this is the first time they've had that yeah so normally it would go out to tend this the last year I think it was okay yeah and to be honest they didn't do a fabulous job yeah I mean a rope really

25:31and the I was in the like second summit wave and the rope was already down to the core that's not good those get you but the the expedition operators have it and this is a conglomerate you could say of all the expedition including 8k and Himalayan guy it's blah blah blah blah blah and I think there's a big kudos for them I agree and they want to they got something to prove exactly so I think as soon as they have the opportunity they're going to be fine and rope up there and small teams yeah that have the opportunity I think we'll be on their co-tails interesting bigger teams right I think we'll take longer to get logistics in place so I think we are going to see a delay yeah but I'm I'm hoping because I'm part of this yeah of course I'm hoping it's not going to be too too late should we straw back yeah yeah there's the back um I so so that's dominating news and like you said it's going to be the next two three four days isn't it it's going to be cool I think so I mean if they don't open it what do you see happening I think there's a scenario where they fix

26:31ropes to the summit but not through the ice fall then how does that work well and people just lose their minds um to me so I think the season here's what I think I see this as the psychology of Everest climbers is fascinating to me like the reason I personally am doing Everest live all of my like great like changing the world ambitions aside everything you want to learn about life human nature is at base camp right now you have the best examples of heroism selflessness strength talent and kindness there in foreigners and in the poly climbers and you also have the best examples of narcissism of singular goals of you know what I mean like it's all there and everybody hat wants to get to the summit to me it's just like such a lesson on what it means to

27:33be human like it's just a little petri dish you know and I get to watch it and write about it so what I think is happening what is going to happen is already we're seeing an Instagram we're seeing on social media people crying in their tents being like well now I've got to pay $4,000 to go climb near a peak and you know and and they're freaking out and they're and they're creating this drama right I think that there's going to be a portion of the climbers not this is not a blanket statement but there's going to be a percentage that are already so tweaked by this they're so anxious and eager to get up to the top that they're just going to stampede it yeah as soon as it's open it's that horses to the barn thing you know and it's all psychology like you know it's like you've always climbed late because nobody's up there why doesn't anybody go up there late just because people like

28:34I don't know why they just need to go right away even though we all know that it's going to be crowded right and we all know there's going to be a good window at the end of the season but there's just this psychology that happens so I think that's going to get turned up this year and that's going to lead to some interesting times on the mountain hopefully it's the kind hopefully like it doesn't lead to a lot of people losing their lives but it could you know we've seen that before I was going to say we've seen that before yeah and the other thing is when that let the horse you go past when that level of anxiety gets tweaked as you say I sometimes wonder how much people and this is the clients rather than the the Sherpet how much they enjoy themselves

29:34yeah I think here's a here's a hot take that I want your read on I think people one of the ways Everest has changed is people have stopped in climbing Everest to enjoy the experience people are climbing Everest for the selfie they're climbing Everest for different reasons that I don't know because I'm not climbing with them but like people aren't necessarily like stopping and looking around like nobody you you remember like and I used to like you know I again I haven't climbed Everest but I used to come up here towards the end of the season and the best time was walking down from base with an expedition and you're just drinking Chang in every lodge on the way by right and you're hanging out and you're you're making friends and you're meeting people's families and everyone's had this experience together and he's bolded them and you don't want it to end and now it's like people come down from

30:36base camp and they immediately pack their their stuff right the stuff is often pre-packed yeah and they're like get me on the helicopter and I get it like they're they're worked and there's a five-star hotel I can't even do waiting for them you know and a massage and like nothing wrong but it's different than it used to be and yeah they're lovely jazz my wife at home jazz quite often says and she sums it up quiet are people looking for an experience or are people looking for just an achievement right and I think I think a broad brushstroke but I think a lot of people these days are looking for that achievement I agree and they are squeezing the experience side of things you know the whole express trips and the flash trips and the helicopters in and out and yeah I'm guilty of being part of that as well totally I'm me too I'm not I'm not walking down this year but yeah some of my fondies memories are like rocking in late at night semi-drunk

31:39yeah because you've been drinking Chang will be all the way in all the way out and you're knackers yeah you're you're you're talking about porters I mean how much are they carrying me I mean leases of water on that by mineral water diska yeah well you got one two three four so that's 12 one two three four five so that guy's carrying 60 liters of water what does water weigh it per liter a kilo come on Ben I'm American dude right oh yeah so so if he was carrying 60 gallons a lot so that that is that's yeah one kilo water is one fair one liter yeah that's kind of the well you go to the prison palace where the SI unit is right right right yeah so he's carrying 60 kilos plus plus the weight of the bottles and all that so yeah 60 plus kilos yeah incredible and they're

32:44small on the faces as it came passes totally yeah another loving it they're rocking out those guys are having the experience they're not having the achievement right two to two degree I mean that's a little treasure but they're you know they're finding finding their joy in it and that to me is what I think drew me to porters was they they suffered so hard but they they're they were just as happy as I was you know like and that sounds really great and I don't want to like glorify poverty I'm not it just surprised me just like how how cool these guys worry you know and there's you know big question coming up if they could find joy carrying 60 kilos of water on their backs all day long yeah man for 2,000 rupees a day and it's costing them 2,200 rupees a day just to exist right why is

33:44somebody crying in their tent at base camp because they can't go through the ice for when they want to this what I mean what's going on with that this is what I mean by everything you need to know that life you learn from Everest and the answer to that question whatever it is is why I've been in Nepal for 28 years because I'm trying to figure that out because there's still parts of me that's crying in my tent and base camp like you know what I mean like I don't have that sense of gratitude yet but my time in Nepal has made me so much happier right that's why I'm state I'm still here but the answer with that I think is I think that the more what I've seen is the more you have the more individualistic you become because you're afraid of other people taking your stuff you know there's we've seen this in our western worlds right we're we're struggling to find connection

34:45because all of our needs are taken care of to an extent right our material needs especially but then like were you here during the earthquake no I was talking about it with Dr. Ben actually because it's the the anniversary today yeah today's the anniversary yep 12 years ago no I passed through about four days beforehand I was working in Bhutan okay right I said anyway long story but no I wasn't we have another disco porter coming by but what we saw I remember before the earthquake and this is an example in Nepal but I think it applies to everywhere before the earthquake all of the I was working on nonprofit space the UN would like have these meetings about how people were just going to murder each other because it was going to be such chaos right and you know all this doom and gloom and army getting about how bad it was going to be and the earthquake was terrible I mean I almost died I was I was in Lucla running I was in Lucla when it happened the house I was in collapsed

35:50I barely made it out and then I ran this field hospital for everyone with a bunch of locals for everyone that that was in the avalanche at base camp and it was super traumatic but what we found like but then like the days after the earthquake we're in Kathmandu my house had fallen down in Kathmandu we're all living in tents and everybody helped each other out there was no crime there was like it was amazing how when people were faced with what sort of looking for adversity yeah when people were faced with adversity their better selves came out and saw that in America during 9-11 you know what I was going to say and you know during the blitz exactly the British government thought that it was going to be chaos and anarchy right and in the actual fact you know nightly bombing and fear of death and everything else the hardship that went with it bonded the community much to the

36:54utter supplies of the British government and that became part of your DNA as a country and I totally agree with you and like the porters unfortunately faced that adversity all the time but they live in that space where they need one another like an example metaphor I often talk about is the way that rice is planted here in Nepal right Nepal's like got all these terraces everywhere and and you can't plant on an industrial scale but the way that rice works is you have to transplant the seedlings in one day you can't transplant half of them today in half of them tomorrow just just the way that the there's a very specific and short window so in the poly villages they time it they work it out and they're like okay Kenton your house is first Ben your house is second Gary your house is third and on Monday as soon as your seedlings are old enough three days old everybody goes to Kenton's house and transplants all of your rice then on Tuesday it's my day because I planted

37:59the next day yeah everyone comes to my house and that's how they survive because they can't do it alone and I actually think that adversity increases your quality of life to an extent and that's what I think the people crying in their tent at base camp don't have and I also think that's part of why they they they seek out things like Everest is subconsciously they're looking for that and they wonder if maybe Everest will give it to them but it's hard to do that when you're all by yourself does that make sense yeah totally and and and this is a common say but we don't do part two of this because I'm nippy conscious your time was you you were good but you're going to do your Everest life to dispatch for the day yeah um it's true because people buying to an Everest expedition I think to a certain extent thinking that there is going to be that community that tribal yes yes like nuclei or nucleus of of the expedition yeah hi I'm sorry I

39:04just recognised you boys then walking up there oh no okay oh fantastic where are you off to I would just say local back on back which is in the free passes oh fantastic he's got fun uh brilliant absolutely yeah yeah I'm glad you enjoyed yourself yes sir you you're back to Namshi tomorrow and then yeah Namshi and then yet the long road salt dance yeah yeah nice we're enjoying it yeah yeah and congratulations thank you no no not at all um he's just made the podcast oh yeah that's what we're talking about we're talking about you have people buying into right next minute because commercial expeditions you know they don't necessarily reflect these you know expeditions that we perhaps have read about in the past yeah exactly the was it american 1963 exhibition totally or the 1973 British one or 1975 always you know whenever one may be where you know everybody is in it together sure everybody is striving for that common purpose yeah a commercial expedition these days is very much I always think a bunch of

40:08individuals that happen to come together to combine the forces for logistics alone yep and there's no there's no yeah like collective sure so to see somebody crying in their tent I think it's a really sad representation 100% one of and I don't know how you would and my expeditions are probably similar I mean I don't know um you know it's one of the failings yeah of a commercial expedition I agree and I think I think another one of the failings is when you see that applied up high when things go badly it's even worse because that's when people step away from other climbers that are hurting that's when even the way the expeditions are on now it's usually like one climber and they're sure put team however big that is and you're not going in like a group

41:08you're not going in a team right and there isn't this idea of like well if Kenton falls ill all four of us we're going to pull Kenton down yeah you know and I think that that yeah that teen spirit yeah it just isn't was that you were awesome maybe did that the Mike's pick that up I don't know the high altitude flat transition yeah so I mean but I mean so much but on the other hand like I also I also think it's very easy to sort of worship the old days oh yeah but on the other hand what the commercial expeditions have done is they've made Everest accessible to I don't want to say almost anyone but to such a huge percentage of the population and there are people every year that go up and that expedition that experience changes their life yeah and yeah and the other thing is bringing it full circle you know where we started from I mean there's what 410 people climbing every this year yeah that's because of commercial

42:14yeah and that is giving right back to this very large that we're in exactly today I mean they're getting the truckers are down but the climb is aren't yeah and and is easy to criticize commercial expeditions and you know I'm vocal about it sometimes but I am part of the problem right at the same time they are opening up let me all 14 8000 units have been opened up yeah because of commercialism you know he's got Iron down and we got Iron and Pete you know Mara Pete sure no no no no no no no no no no no no no and you know that shouldn't be overlooked no and and we shouldn't keep it to ourselves and listen getting like you're a part of it but you've fed your family and you've had a great life from it and that applies to people all the way up and down the chain here and that's something that you know we can't lose sight of that's such an important part of it right so we're back at the lodge and I did say we're gonna be 30 minutes 40 minutes 40 minutes on the note nice so just to to land this to bring this home

43:19what do you think the every season it's gonna look like yeah well I game but let's put the ice full to one side okay um I mean more do you think it's gonna be different if anything this year I think it's hard to predict I don't think that anything will be predictably different well what we did yeah um I think that the commercial teams have it so dialed maybe the road fixing with the expedition operators will be a little bit more efficient and transparent that might affect some decision making you know that might lead more people to go in that first wave that's part of what I was thinking is you know last year 8K kept it super close to their chest yeah nobody knew yeah but this year if they if the expedition operators are just saying like yeah we're going up on Tuesday I think a lot more people will use that inside information to go up on their coats yes yeah which could be a good good or all bad thing exactly yeah but I think I think and hope that this season will will be pretty similar to last season hopefully

44:28it'll be a safer one I mean that's what I hope for yeah there's no reason to hope that I mean it wasn't a bad season last year was it no all things considered yeah was it five people dead yeah something like that which is it was bad for them yeah I raised you super sad but you know is it yeah the highest peak on the planet or is it 20 21 22 what year was it was like on a 17 death I think it was 22 yeah exactly yeah so you know it's it's getting better and and you know I mean it we're jaded right we're up there we're like I have five it's not bad is it but again that's to me the fascination that's that's what draws us to that yeah you know and how can the audience find this has got a Google every's life just yeah every's live on youtube instagram tiktok google banners Everest it'll all come up it'll come up yeah man it's been a pleasure great fun thanks can appreciate the walk too oh yeah it was stretch of the legs yeah it's good

45:30well I hope you enjoyed that mini episode before we go any further with my breakdown on it it's probably worth just noting that although the icefall is still officially closed there was a breakthrough yesterday where five Sherpas and a Polish climber pretty much managed to get to camp one on Everest and they deem the route through the icefall a viable option so that blockage that Ben and I discussed it looks like it is now clear and the season can get underway but wow what a phenomenal episode I mean Ben such a remarkable person now working as a porter in the port how hard must that have been but his insight into the community the portrait community is absolutely phenomenal I love that episode and we will definitely be catching up with Ben

46:32later in the season to deep dive perhaps a little bit more into into him rather than perhaps Everest itself but I really do hope that you enjoyed that episode a little insight to what the next little mini series is going to give you but for now stay safe out there and we'll see you