Episode 5: Heartbreaker

0:00The wilderness can hide a lot, but it can't hide the truth forever. I'm Dilya DeAmber, a host of Park Predators, and every week I investigate true crime cases hidden in national parks, forests, and beaches. I follow every lead, every clue, and every overlooked detail. Because even when a trail seems to disappear, the truth has a way of resurfacing. Listen to Park Predators wherever you get your podcasts. This podcast discusses issues such as drug use, self-harm, sexual abuse, violence, and assault. Listen to discretion is advised. Particle entertainment Since I was 15, the longest I've been able to stay with Mama is 7 months.

1:01We don't get along. Well, this go-round. I'd have been staying there for 7 months. And one night I was saying something to Trent, and she ended up grabbing my arms and screaming, and I was screaming. Natalie's relationship with her mother was at times strained, as she discusses in this video from 2019. Their heated arguments often push Natalie into the arms of the men in her life, if only out of necessity. So a friend of mine that I've been friends with for a long time, he's normally since I was younger. We tried to date when I was 18, but I just didn't see him like that. So I told him, and he said, well, if we can't be together, then at least want to be your friend. I said, okay. So we've been friends ever since. He seemed like we're not with mom, and I was like, I told him I need to somewhere stay, prefer a little bit until I got on my feet.

2:04Well, his name is Junior. He offered to take us on a cruise. Nothing was done, like, sexually. I've not done nothing with him except back then. He's my friend, and that's it. It came down to the point of, I knew he wanted to be with me, and I was not being with him. So he got mad, and he started screaming at me and kicked me out, so I had to do what I had to do. If you are ever curious about anything, just ask. Because my life is a life that's an up-and-book, so it is what it is. It is what I'm making it. I had to do what I had to do. Seems like the more I learn about Natalie Jones, the more I believe she was in that position as her life went on.

3:05Overcoming trauma and obstacles became a way of life for her. While she seemed outwardly happy to those around her, she was clearly dealing with much on the inside. If anything, I can say that she was a survivor for what that's worth. But somehow, on the night of July 4th, 2020, she ended up in a situation where that survivor instinct of hers just wasn't enough. I'm Sean Kai, from AudioChuck and Particle Entertainment. This is the Truth About Natalie.

4:05Through my research and interviews, there have been several key names that continue to pop up, and not just these names, but how they associated with Natalie. Names that have crawled across the lips of many in her community, through whispers, or loudly voiced opinions. The figure's largest in Natalie's life, predominantly men, have drawn widespread suspicion, with many speculating that each harbored motives to silence her, whether a jilted lover, an impending court case, a heated custody dispute, or claims of grooming, predatory behavior, and even extortion. I looked exhaustively into their backgrounds, unraveling their connections to Natalie, and reached out to each and pursuit of answers. Now, I'll remind you that the statements expressed by those I've interviewed are merely opinion, except when I refer to information in the police file or court documents. No one has been charged with any crime except where stated, and law enforcement has, at the time of production of this podcast, cleared anyone of any wrongdoing regarding Natalie.

5:11The first man I investigated is Junior. Natalie knew Junior since she was a teenager, meeting through her mother Elaine. They became close friends, and he told police when they interviewed him that he kinda looked out for her, helping her out financially from time to time along the way. As she got older, had her children, was twice divorced, and was struggling to the point of periodic homelessness, Junior occasionally provided Natalie and her children with a place to stay. Yet while she regarded him strictly as a friend, sources including Elaine and Natalie's own videos, indicate that he developed romantic feelings for her over time. Junior loved her, as all you could see from him, was whatever you want, whatever you want to do, you know, he loved her. I said, he's good to you, and he's good to both of your boys. That's the main thing that counts. You know, I mean, yeah, he might be ugly, but he's good. He passes my part anyways.

6:15I said, just look at him as an old team, heart core. He even fixed me anyway, he wanted to fix him, and she did. Whenever Elaine and Natalie were at odds, usually over the right way to raise her kids, Junior was one of the first people she would call. She'd stay at his place for a while with the kids until things cooled off, and I'm told he spoiled her. He took her own cruises, took her and her boys own cruises, you know, he just went in her. It was her and her two sons. He about trying to dart by Isaac a full willer. Elaine says Natalie was always clear with Junior about her feelings, that their relationship was strictly platonic in her eyes. We had to argue that about something. She called Junior, asked because she'd come down to us, she said, I don't want to be with you. I just want me and my boys to run. And he made it happen. He fixed a bat part of his house for her and her two boys. And he was trying to like, okay, I'll wait as long as it takes, you know, maybe one day you'll let me like I love you.

7:17But eventually the relationship did become intimate, and apparently Junior's feelings began to complicate things. Yeah, he wanted to marry her, yeah. How do you propose to her by this point? Yeah, and she told him, you know, she said, I think of you as my best friend. I don't think of you as a husband, you know. And she was sleeping with him for money. The only way I found that out was because one day I picked her phone up. It went off. I never met her for her phone, you understand? Or anything about that. But it went off. She just started laughing like a giggle laugh. I said, what's so funny? And she said, keep my phone up and put my code in, where she had a tell me to code because she changed a code every week. And Junior showed her $2,500. $2,500 earned all bills. And he said, just come over for an hour and visit me.

8:22Well, hey, you know, she rent. And for a few months he was like paying her and he gave her money to pay down on that land that she got. In police interviews, Junior stated that while they did have a sexual relationship, he never wanted to marry her. And the land Elaine is referring to is a 19 acre plot located not far from where Natalie's car was found. She purchased it between the time she moved back to Georgia from Gulf shores in May of 2020 and shortly before she went missing in July. She got the money from Junior, $11,000 in total and put $5,000 down. It was raw, forested land, so she would have had to have it cleared and have utilities run. That's not cheap to do. She was also shopping for a mobile home to purchase for her and her kids to live in around the time she went missing. Yeah, my nose she was going to get a double-eyed. He then went and picked down out. Got all the stuff approved. And she was actually going to move and you know, move in August after all the court date with Eric, you know, after she done that.

9:31Questions swirled around the feasibility of this purchase, particularly how Natalie could realistically cover the costs. The remaining $5,000 or $6,000 from her down payment fell far short of addressing the additional expenses involved. And the agreement itself drew scrutiny as it was struck directly with the property owner, a private arrangement that some viewed as an exploitative, with allegations that the seller anticipated or at least suspected her eventual default, allowing him to reclaim and sell the land again for pure profit. Compounding the doubts, Natalie lacked any steady employment or verifiable steady income. But back to junior. From what I'm told, they spent a lot of time together and he truly cared for her that's largely unrefuted. Natalie seems to have used that situation to her advantage at times and seems to have sent mixed signals to junior, allowing him to take her on cruises, shopping, crashing out at his house. He even painted her car blue for her, which she would later spray paint that hot pink color I've talked about.

10:34She did that and Elaine's backyard shortly before she went missing. But when Natalie went missing, junior became a person of interest and write her wrong, that scrutiny only intensified after she was found. They tried to push everything towards junior. They had done winning junior's home. Next, all these cameras down, shoved them on the couch, told him don't move. They tried to push this blame towards him. I'm Josh Manikoots and I hope you'll join us for season five of Date Line Missing in America. In each episode of Date Line's award-winning series, we will focus on one missing person's case and hear from the families, the friends, and the investigators all desperate to find them. Maybe you could help solve a mystery. Search Date Line missing in America to listen completely pre or subscribe to Date Line Premium to unlock new episodes early.

11:37The moment a body is found, the clock starts ticking. 48 hours before the trail goes cold. From A&E and Crime House, this is the official podcast from the famous True Crime series, The First 48. I'm Carter Roy. Every Thursday, I revisit a landmark homicide investigation in depth with long-form storytelling built for your ears. Listen to and follow The First 48 on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you listen to podcasts. The first time I've ever seen a body that was found in America, I've never seen a body that was found in America. Elaine told me that because of Natalie's relationship to the men in her life, one of which being junior, accusations flew when she went missing, and that compounded when her remains were recovered. At the time, everyone in the community was on high alert, and emotions were running high. Almost everyone in Natalie's close inner circle got side-eyed glances at least once.

12:41There was even a theory that Elaine herself had something to do with her daughter's disappearance. So by the time she was found deceased, fingers had already been pointed at junior, and someone had to take matters into their own hands. Natalie's sister Tabitha, along with a few others, allegedly forcefully entered junior's home, searching for any sign that Natalie had been on his property. And they say, I know, here comes Buddy and Tabitha flying up in the yard, where they had done winning junior's home. Next, all these cameras down, shoved him on the couch, told him, don't move, and when they left, the cops got behind him, and they outranned the cops. It was right after Natalie was found. They came to my house, and they was bragging about outranging the law. And I said, why did you come here? Why did you come to my house? Oh, they wanted to check on me. You know what I'm saying? And junior went and took out a warrant.

13:41Every day, the junior was threatened because he didn't go through with it. No arrests were made, but investigator Boswell was aware of the incident, because he mentioned it briefly when we spoke. Though in his police interviews, he could be perceived by Somme as a bit smug at times, junior cooperated with authorities, who had solid reason for questioning him in the first place. That reason was Natalie's cell phone data. Regarding the cell tower pings from Natalie's phone, it was all over the place on July 4th. Jennifer has studied the phone data extensively, and she tells me there are things that are completely perplexing. The phone was peeing off towers in Franklin, Georgia, over in Corinth, and then it bounced back over to Franklin, and heard County. It bounced over up in the Roosterville area at one point, and there's a lot of what we refer to as ghost pings that have hit in New-Nan, Georgia, Calvita County.

14:45And then the very last pings, which was at 502 AM, that was down in Troop County at West Point Lake, which is weird. It's a mystery cell pings. It just looks like someone, if it were Natalie, if it were Natalie with someone else, or if it were someone else, that there were a bunch of erratic movements. The RTD data and cell hall canalis is collected from Natalie's phone, which tells what cell phone towers her phone communicated with, or pinging off of, and where and when pings occurred, gave investigators a general sense of where Natalie had traveled the night of July 4th. Your phone is constantly sending and receiving transmissions to cell phone towers, so if it's turned on, you can be traced. Investigators use various methods to determine a likely path of travel and can accurately create a timeline from there. That night, Natalie's phone pings numerous times between midnight and 5.02 AM when it went dark.

15:48The data shows movements all over the county, even crossing the county line, moving back and forth and revisiting the same areas several times. It's bizarre. Investigators Boswell showed me on the computer in his office all the data points collected from Natalie's phone that night. It's a lot of comprehensive information that wouldn't make sense to the average person, me included, but he's been trained in reading and deciphering this data. I can show you my Google Earth, where I plot at every single one of those cell phone towers. On my Google Earth, I have a file that's called Naila Jones, and it can show you every single tower, every... I mean, you look at the data points, and this whole line right here is the data points. Her calls, her text messages, and I did the measures based on the distance from the towers. Data arcs basically create location boundaries, and where they overlap is a likely place the person or phone was located at a given time.

16:51But the data in question here was from 2.32 AM on the morning of July 5th. Natalie's phone appeared to ping at the end of junior's driveway. This was potentially a huge breakthrough, though he wasn't questioned about it until nearly two years later. In a police interview, junior was shown printouts of this data along with images showcasing the arcs that were associated with his property. Her phone was pinging off towers over around your house. Wow! So, does this mean anything to you? Or can you think of any reason why she might have been driving near 901 Road? That eating... Around her house? She had her daddy's son, they live all around me over there. Okay, that's all I'm left. Junior lives back a long gravel road. There isn't much else back there, and it pretty much dead ends shortly after his property.

17:53So what reason might Natalie have had to go there, but attempt to see him? He says that Natalie's half-brother and some other extended family of hers also live in that general area, but he had no idea why all Natalie would be there at that time of the night. You know that if she happened to come by your house that night, that doesn't mean we did anything long, but if she were in any trouble, it would just mean you might be able to help give us a little puzzle piece that leads us in the... I don't know, but I really don't know. So, for the guy, no. Okay. Is it at all possible if she came by your house maybe when you were sleeping? No, I don't believe that. Did she have a fever? Did she have a fever? No, she beat on my door. Well, she was beaten on my door. Junior emphatically denies speaking to or seeing Natalie that night, and police had no evidence to refute that. The cell data just shows that Natalie was in the area, not that she knocked on the door or spoke with Junior or anyone else. But strangely, there's also another ping just minutes away from his house at another intriguing location.

19:01Then, at 232, we have this red arc right around here. That's your mom's house. Yeah. Were you at your mom's house that night? No, I don't tell you, Janette. Okay. Would your mom have been there that night? Yeah, my mom was at home. Is it at all possible that Natalie went by your mom's house that night? My mom won't go to my mom's house. Natalie will? No, no, no. She just don't go to my mom's house. I don't know why. She just won't go to my mom's house. Can you think of anybody that lives on this red arc besides your mom's house? No. I do not know. His mother also claimed she had not seen or heard from Natalie the night she went missing or since. Investigators continue to question Junior about what reason Natalie might have had to visit that specific rural area in the middle of the night or who else she might have gone to see. Then, when investigators begin poking him about the $11,000 he gave to Natalie for the land purchase

20:03and being with other men, trying to invoke a little jealousy, the conversation does take a turn. Junior begins to get upset and abruptly says the interview is over. Young enough $11,000 isn't anything to you. If somebody just took $11,000 from you and then said see you, that wouldn't make you feel anywhere? No, not a bit. Didn't tell you why because the money coming down with doesn't. I'm serious. I'm not bullshit. I know y'all sit behind this dead-of-right-ear potion. Do I need a higher law? Let's stop this. Do I need a higher law? You're a stop-of-right-ear? Stop this right there. It's something. Then, just minutes later, as investigators are asking about the location where Natalie was found, Junior again considers ending the interview. Did you ever go to that location before? No, I just don't believe that. No, I think it's going to take them to the stop. Because you need to die. I'm going to hire a male lawyer because y'all just keep on pushing this right here. Officers reassure that they aren't accusing him of anything. They are simply looking for an explanation.

21:03He relaxes slightly and the interview goes on for another 20 minutes. Junior states that the night Natalie vanished, he was homesick and bid. He tells him he actually had a trip plan to Panama City during that time, but had to cancel it. Something his mother corroborated in a separate interview. It's worth remembering that this was during the beginning stages of COVID. Looking at this data and knowing the relationship between the two, it's understandable why investigators were interested in Junior initially. In the end, there was nothing concrete to prove he had ever seen or spoken to her the night she went missing. He met his feelings for Natalie Clear. She was my best friend. She was just a friend of my sidekick. I'm old man and she's young girl and that she was just a sidekick. Called me up and said, hey, let's go out and fight for fun. We're going to trip. We're going to no laceship, but she was my best friend. I'm sorry, I do anything in the world for her. She was my best friend. But why was Natalie there?

22:04Why was she or her phone moving around in such an erratic manner? Was she looking for someone or something? Was she with someone or waiting for someone? Maybe she was under the influence and just didn't want to go home. Her text and call history provide no clear answers. But one other claim Junior made to police was that Natalie was using drugs around that time. Every single day, not a marijuana, every single day. And sometimes meth men. I'm sure. Like let's say that that evening she's coming back from Alabama. And instead of going home, she goes there and uses drugs and overdoses and dyes. Let's say that's what happened. Okay, possibility. Yeah, I mean, I guess I don't know. I guess as somebody who knows Natalie, does that seem like something that you think she would ever do in terms of like? Pull off in the woods? Like specifically. Late in night, let's say five in the morning, four in the morning. Go over to here, pull over there and use drugs and that location.

23:08Like could you see her doing that knowing her? Does that seem out of character for her? Yes, she would do the whole. And I always say that out of that night. I tried contacting Junior numerous times with no response. I wanted to discuss not just about the suspicion around him early on, but learn more about Natalie as well. Before long, it was clear he wasn't going to speak with me. I believe Junior loved Natalie and her kids. I've heard that from several people, though we still won't talk about her. Could her denial of marriage as Elaine claims have pushed him over the edge? Could knowing she was seeing other men after he'd given her large sums of money? Tens of thousands of dollars by his own estimate over the years have angered him so much that he would want a harmer. These were questions being asked by Elaine and even law enforcement. But evidence is key here. No calls, emails or texts were placed from Natalie to Junior that night and none were received from him.

24:10Though I do question why his phone records, to my understanding, were never pulled for cross-reference or to verify his location that night. There's nothing obvious. No physical or forensic evidence I'm aware of that links him in any way to Natalie's disappearance. But again, when you continue to peel back the layers of secrecy in Natalie's life, you will find a lot more that remains hidden. The moment a body is found, the clock starts ticking. 48 hours before the trail goes cold. From A&E and Crime House, this is the official podcast from the famous True Crime series, The First 48. I'm Carter Roy. Every Thursday, I revisit a landmark homicide investigation in depth with long-form storytelling built for your ears. Listen to and follow The First 48 on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music or Wherever You Listen to Podcasts.

25:20I'm Josh Manikowitz and I hope you'll join us for season 5 of Dateline Missing in America. In each episode of Dateline's award-winning series, we will focus on one missing person's case and hear from the families, the friends and the investigators all desperate to find them. Maybe you could help solve a mystery. Search Dateline Missing in America to listen completely free or subscribe to Dateline Premium to unlock new episodes early. He closed me, he fed me, he made sure I was at school, I was with him all the time, I clung to him, and from 13 to 15 years old that man was my dad, he was my dad.

26:34I went on vacations that people dream about. They taught me so much, they gave me a home to feel safe here. When I get mad at me, my punishment was to go back home with my mom's. I was screaming and hollering, yeah it was scary to have a 400 pound blackmate in your face, screaming at you when you're just this little baby girl. But I loved you, I looked out to him, so freaking much, he was all ahead. I, if you're watching this, I'm just gonna stop right there right now. Listening to Natalie's own words about Ira, it might seem confusing to reconcile her glowing portrayal with accusations of his potential involvement in her demise.

27:40But as always, it's complex, and there's more to the story here. As Natalie leudes to at the end of her video stating, I forgive you for everything you've done to me after 15. Elaine tells me Ira came into Natalie's life through an introduction by her half-sisters, Tabitha and Jesse. They brought Natalie in that picture. All the girls hung around with Ira, who at that time would have been in his early to mid-40s. They spent time at his house, he took them shopping and on trips, he even bought Natalie a car. Elaine recounts the time he took them all to Disney World, all expenses paid. When Natalie was like 14, this is like when Ira was like first coming into the picture, he wanted to take Natalie to Disney World. I said, if I take him away, maybe to Disney World? Yeah, no, you're not taking away Disney World. He said, oh, but you can go too.

28:44At that time, Elaine was dating a police officer, and she tells me Ira invited him along too, so that she felt secure that Natalie was in good hands. He said, y'all can go too. He said, as guys are staying in one room, the girls can stay in another room. I said, we don't have no men, and everything he's paid for, we're staying at the hard rock. So I went, all he'd done was stayed in his room the whole time. The whole time that we's down there, he never came out of the room. Ira Natalie became close with her viewing him as a surrogate father, a midter-strained relationship with her biological one. Natalie even lived at his home for some time. Elaine got more uncomfortable the closer they became. The situation called for scrutiny. Was this a sincere effort to support a teenager from a fractured family, or was it entirely inappropriate given the age difference and no familial ties? Ira also declined speaking with me, but explained his relationship with Natalie to investigators.

29:53I saw Natalie at the football game, they said, hey, up, noon at high, there's a football game, and I met her, she jumped in the car, and I was with a tab and some other people, and she got in the car. Then I met her, and then I went with her any lane, shopping the next day, bought her a camera or something like that, and went on about my business. And so did she move in with you when she started playing? Yeah, the first thing to happen was, okay, let me give you the backdrop. Originally, it becomes an increasingly uncomfortable conversation. He goes on to tell how he bought a house for his mother, and he lived in the house next door. But Natalie and the other young girls would stay at his house while he stayed as his mother. Then Elaine went to jail on a minor charge after Natalie's first son was born, and again Natalie moved in with him temporarily.

30:55He says Natalie's half-sister Tabitha lived there for a while too, at the same time. Police aren't slow to ask the question that most are likely wondering either. Was there anything going on that shouldn't have been in this highly unusual situation? Now, what type of relationship did you and Natalie eventually... Yeah, eventually, when she was older, I mean, I know Yossai to video, or Facebook, but it's Natalie's theatrics, okay? Natalie had, by the time I had done whatever with her, she had been married, had a baby, all this other stuff. And, you know, I mean, and hadn't lived with me in a minute, and was incorrigible out of control. Natalie paints a different picture though. When he references the Facebook video in her theatrics, this is the video he's talking about. I'm home with the jail. I quit school. I was just a 16-year-old little girl with a baby, all by myself.

32:07And, a cold hour because I'm pregnant at diapers. I needed clothes. I had a store for $20. We haven't talked in and months. As far as I hear, he came over to my mom's, he picked me up. He took me back to the house in a wooden play that he was giving me. And, he said in front of the house, and he didn't see me as his little girl anymore. I don't even think he's seen me as somebody he knew. He put his hand on my leg, and he told me, and if I wanted his help, that I would have to sleep with him.

33:10What would you do then? So, eventually, I and I are not going to do it. I'm done. I'm done right now. Natalie sat in the woods behind her church when she recorded that video. Is this a young woman being overly dramatic, stirring up rumors for some reason, or a broken soul coming clean with the difficult and trauma-inducing decisions she's had to make to survive for this child to provide for her child? But one component that she's not putting in there is there's an emotional involvement. She's trying to play like, you know, on the little videos, like some $20, and she needed some diapers. It was not transactional like that. She wanted to have my baby and all this stuff.

34:11Whether Natalie had reached legal adulthood at the time remains contested. There are conflicting recollections and perspectives from those involved. Still, a consensus emerged among the few who knew the intimate details of her life that there was an unmistakable undercurrent of impropriety. Jennifer feels especially strong about this. If you talk about all the men in Natalie's life, like she did to them what they taught her to do. It did a number on her, and I don't care if he didn't do anything until age 16. She's still young, she's still a teenager, she had still been around him for three years. All of that, my grief gets inside of your head and you start thinking that this is normal. The age of consent in Georgia is 16. But still, Ira has gone public, vehemently denying these allegations Natalie brought online.

35:12He said he cared about her and did nothing more than fill avoid as the father figure that she desperately needed in her life. But Jennifer feels differently. She believes that this was the beginning of a dark path for Natalie. That this vulnerable adolescent girl was exploited in ways that would play into every desperate decision she made afterward. This comes from her looking for a strong male figure that she looked to, that she herself has said many times over. I've looked at him, I've loved him so much like he was my dad. Like I go into her voice because I've heard that video so many times and it just simultaneously breaks my heart and pisses me off. He did a number on her, absolutely. The suspicion surrounding Ira's possible involvement in Natalie's disappearance did not arise solely from the relationship many regard is inherently inappropriate, or from the persistent allegations that he groomed her beginning in her early teens.

36:16They are also centered around tangible records, court documents that some point to as corroborating evidence of a predatory pattern. In July 2019, charges were filed against Ira, eight counts for child molestation, and eight counts for aggravated sexual battery on a child under the age of 16. These charges were reduced to eight counts of cruelty to children in the third degree, a misdemeanor in Georgia. He was sentenced to 96 months probation and later petitioned for and was granted early termination after serving at least 12 months. But none of these charges involved Natalie, and again, Ira reached out several times to Ira, but he declined to speak with me for this podcast. Elaine also shared information with Jennifer that cemented the idea of Ira's alleged improprieties in Jennifer's head. She had told us at one point that Natalie had taken a CD that contained a legal video, if you will, evidence that she had from the alleged predator.

37:28That would be Ira. Elaine stated that she doesn't know who the attorney was. She said that she believed it was someone local, but that this happened somewhere in the months of May and June of 2020. Again, Natalie Vanish on July 4th, and she took it to an attorney and they just all Natalie told Elaine was that they said they couldn't do anything with it or weren't going to do anything with it. So that was very alarming for us. No one knows what happened to the CD or exactly what was on it. Honestly, I'm not sure anyone can really confirm it ever existed outside of Natalie telling Elaine about it. But as Jennifer tells me, she did speak with a confidential source who relayed similar information. I don't want to reveal the source, but there's also someone that I interviewed that knows Natalie very closely that stated she came out one night with her laptop and said, you want to see something funny?

38:34She thought it was, you know, I guess goofing off in a way. And they said what? And she popped a CD in the laptop. I'm not going to play what was told in Jennifer. With no proof of what was on the CD and no concrete evidence that it ever existed at all, it feels wrong to put it out there for speculation. But per that source, it was described as being of a sexual nature. He was like, you know, I was disgusted by it. He was like, look, I mean, I'm a guy I watch porn, but like I don't want to see this. I mean, you could sense it in his voice. Without Natalie to verify the claim or the alleged CD containing the evidence, confirmation is impossible. What is documented, however, is the single video she did post in which she accuses him of soliciting her when she was 16. But just as with Junior, there's no hard evidence that places Ira anywhere near Natalie the night she disappeared.

39:34But as I dive deeper, I learn that Natalie might have had something she was hiding after all, something that someone else may have wanted to get their hands on. She came over late at night and she said, the lady with the dogs said that I needed to get some of Natalie's belonging and so that the dogs can get a cent off of it. That said, okay. And she had a white plastic bag, like garbage bag. And I said, what all did you take? Oh, I just got a hairbrush. That's why I started catching her in multiple lives. She was like, I knew right then that was a lie. That she hairbrush that was Natalie's only hairbrush. She's like, I have it in my purse right now. And she pulled it out of her purse and showed us. So, why are you lying?

40:56The truth about Natalie is an audio chuck original produced by Particle Entertainment. I wrote and produced the series. Executive producer is Ashley Flowers. Additional research provided by Community Advocates for Natalie Jones, original music written and performed by Jackson Eppley. And a special thanks to Elaine Gordon and her family. If you or someone you know is experiencing domestic violence, help is available at the National Domestic Violence Hotline at 800-799-7233. You can find me on social media at Sean Kipe official or at seankipe.com. And you can email me any information about this case to info at seankipe.com. Don't forget to rate and review the show wherever you listen to podcasts. And as always, thanks for listening.

42:00The moment a body is found, the clock starts ticking. 48 hours before the trail goes cold. From A&E and Crime House, this is the official podcast from the famous True Crime series, The First 48. I'm Carter Roy. Every Thursday, I revisit a landmark homicide investigation in depth with long-form storytelling built for your ears. Listen to and follow The First 48 on Apple Podcasts. Spotify, Amazon Music or wherever you listen to podcasts.