Episode 315 - Mumford & Sons

Welcome everyone to Sew the Jerker on Songwriting, episode 315. Hope you're all well, it's Simon

and Brian here and joining us today are two members of a Grammy and Ivan Avella

winning English band whose meteoric rise in the late 2000s and early 2010s sold them

go from West London new folk combo to global arena-straddling behemoth in just a few short years.

They recently dropped prize fighter, their sixth studio album and their fourth to top the UK chart,

a mere 11 months after their last LP, Rushmeer. It was co-produced with longtime pal,

the nationals Aaron Dessner and mostly recorded at his Longpun studio in upstate New York,

and boasts a stellar cast of guest stars including Hosea, Gracie Abrams, Justin Vernon,

Gigi Perez and Chris Stapleton. We're delighted to welcome Mumford & Sons Marcus Mumford and Ben

Love It to the show. Mumford & Sons formed in London in 2007, although frontman Marcus and

keyboardist Ben actually met at school in Wimbledon when they were 8 years old and started playing

music together around the age of 12. They met banjo player Winston Marshall and bassist Ted Dwayne

in their late teens, and all four were part of a loose collective of musicians, which also included

the legs of Noah in the whale and Laura Marling, and often assembled in the basement club Boson's

Locker on the Kings Road in Chelsea. The foursome began playing and writing songs together

and gradually coalesced into an entity of their own. Owing in part to their tireless gigging schedule,

they quickly built a strong following and eventually wanted to deal with island records in the

summer of 2009. Long playing debut Sino Moore released the following autumn and produced by

Marcus Straves, he'll did hits like Little Lionman and the Cave on the Brit for album of the year

and eventually went multi-platin. The Grammy winning follow-up, 2012's Bable, which spawned the mega-hit

I Will Wait, topped the UK and US album charts, as did 2015's James Ford produced Wilder Mind,

which also marked their first collaboration with the aforementioned Mr Desner. 2018's Delta

recorded at the church with Paul Epworth, not to them another US number one, but seven years with

elapsing to Liam Veil, their next studio effort, Rushmere, which was their first outing as a

three-piece following Winston's departure in the summer of 2021. If you've just discovered

Soda Jaker on songwriting, be sure to follow, rate and review our show on your podcast platform

of choice and check out our archive of well over 300 songwriter interviews. You can also support

the show at SodaJaker.com slash donate. One last thing, huge thanks to Flossy for her help sent

up the interview. Right, with our further ado, here's our conversation with Marcus and Ben

of Montford & Sons.

Welcome to the podcast. Glad to have you here. Thanks for having us. What a pleasure.

So prizefator follows Rushmere by less than a year. You guys must be in some kind of perpetual flow

state. It's a jerky flow, if that's the case. Punctuated by shows, you know, we did, I think we

did the biggest tour. We've ever done putting Rushmere out, and then we rolled straight into

talking about and playing prizefator. We went back to an old school where I'm doing things

because we had the songs written. We started just playing them live on the Rushmere tour,

which is a bit of a leap of faith for our audience, I think, but kind of worked out. You know,

I think now some of our audience are recognizing the songs they heard in the shows and connecting

with those ones, particularly, which is like what we did on the first two records, and then we

stopped doing it when YouTube became like a real thing. People were filming shows, which they

didn't do right at the beginning of the band's life. Anyway, so we've just been touring a bunch,

and then we rolled straight from touring into prizefator, which felt good. You know, we wanted to

release it while we were warm, at least. Yeah, yeah. We spoke to the Edge from YouTube last year,

and he said he's found that the best time to make a record is straight after he's just finished one.

They're perpetually making records, though, to be fair. They take like five years to record.

And they record the whole time. So there's never the wrong time to make a record in the Edge's mind,

I imagine, legend. Yeah. And I think you were an electric lady, then finishing Rushmere,

yet when you connected with Aaron Desner? Yeah, that's right. We went in to do some final

overdubes, because we made Rushmere quite quickly, and in like little chunks, but a lot of the

live tracking was done in Savannah. And we didn't have time whilst we were there to get all the

overdubes done. So whilst we were in the mix in New York with Tom Almhurst, who we'd love to death,

we went and added some VVs and some guitars, I think. And we were just in there doing like a

day or two. And so Rushmere was in a process of being mixed, you know, 10-minute walkaway.

We were in an electric lady doing some overdubes, so we weren't too much in Tom's hair. And then whilst

we were there, I think Mark Scott takes from Aaron saying, you're on the building out here.

And so I kind of stop and say, hi, upstairs with Gracie Abrams. So those guys just popped into

the studio. It was really nice just saying hi to old friends. And then we started playing some

music, which is part of our language, our love language. And then after we had played a bit of

Rushmere, Aaron was like, I'd love to play you guys a couple of things because I've been, you know,

collecting song ideas. He's got like an amazing library of bits of pieces that he collects all the

time. And he's like, there's actually something I've really got in mind, you know, should this moment

have transpired? So we sat and listened. And we heard the beginning of the idea of the banjo song.

And we heard the beginning of the song, Prize Fides, which was something that he did with Justin

Vernon. They're two very different songs, obviously, but immediately brought into focus that we

were not done writing songs yet. This wasn't a moment of putting the pen down, going out on

tour for another couple of years. This was like, I think within 24 hours, we're having serious

conversations about working together and doing something with those songs. So yeah, I'm in

amazing how these things happen really in life. I love that there's still that much spontaneity

and happenstance that can kind of lead the creative process. And we just go with it, you know,

you have to kind of yield to the flow and just let it happen. I think I heard Marcus call it a side

quest. Yeah, it was a side quest. That's exactly what it was. Yeah, it was for fun. And like Ben said,

it came from a social thing, you know, it was just like seeing friends. And that's how we started

as a band, you know, it was just meeting up with friends and then playing music as part of the

language, yeah, ancient form of communication. You know, we showed him a demo of a song that we'd

written in January 23 and the first week we'd come back together. And actually one from February 23,

which was stay, I think. And here was the first one. And it was the first idea of a sketch that I had

when we got back together as the three of us in Los Angeles and January 23 to start writing.

And we hadn't finished it and couldn't figure out how to finish it, you know, it was fairly

straightforward kind of cowboy chords effectively with some LA guitar sounds on it in an old 20s,

12 string. And we couldn't figure out how to finish it. And he was just immediately,

he was like, oh man, well, have you just like tried this and this? And after the New York experience,

I chased him down in Paris. And we did a day in Paris together and we started rubber band man

and here. And then I chased him down to Buritz because he was on tour with the national.

But he had a couple days off in Buritz. So I flew down there and we started running together

because I had a banjo lick for the first time in my life. And then the national headlining the other

stage of Glastonbury. And so we did a day on here. And that's where like he shows this idea he had

for the bridge, which completely opened up the song and meant that we could finish it.

And then I drove him to his gig, got in there just in time. I sat in the car and watched the

England game and he played. And then I got him back, drove him straight off stage and drove him

back down here to do another day. So we're like taking these chances while we got them, you know,

he kept saying like, oh, if we were at Lumpond, this would be quicker and easier. And in the meantime,

he'd send a couple of things off to his sort of network of friends, really. That he makes me

sit with like Rob Moose, string arranger who we've worked with before he was a friend of ours too.

We just got to plug back into this kind of community. It's not seen because it's so the membrane

is so permeable, you know, it's friends and connections that he has. People like in there,

it's Mitchell and Justin Vernon and Rob Moose and this amazing community of people, you know,

which is really I think part of our day and they to make this thing social because it's just

makes my own change, that's it.

And so eventually we got to Lumpond and we had like here run together, banjo song,

prize fighter and rubber band met. We felt that we had something to chase down and then we spent

10 days writing together at Lumpond and got basically the rest of them and then we went back and

did some little bits of recording here and there. But it was the easiest process for a record

that we've ever had. It was just really straightforward. Wow. Yeah. What's going to say? It sounds

like you were in great shape by the time you got to Lumpond if you had all that on your belt.

Yeah. And part of the feeling that we had was like, look, we're match fit. You know,

we just made this record. We've got the monkey off our back because the three-piece like making

a record together. We've done some shows. We're in the middle of the biggest tour we've ever done.

We feel warmed up and so now's a great time to get in the studio actually. So edges right,

I think. And I don't think we want to stop as well. I think we just want to keep rolling,

you know, keep writing. And I guess because no one would have been expecting you to already be

in the studio making a new record. There's just no pressure. You could be free to do whatever you

wanted. For sure. Yeah, that was definitely happening. And I think expectations are

are tricky things in the creative process and obviously when you start out as a band, you kind of,

you have zero expectations, you know, of yourselves, but also the world with no idea who you are. So

you can really create quite freely. You can take risks in ways that I think maybe get harder and

harder. The more that people have an expectation of your sound. There's a lot about Rushmare that I

think is such an important part of the canon of the music that we've made. And it is what it

set out to be. And then with that out there, I think we had this ability to to be a little bit more

light and exploratory. The stakes somehow felt lower, which meant that the music was better.

I mean, it feels like that to us. And in that location, you would finish words in the morning,

music in the afternoon. Is that how it was divided up? Yeah, well, it was at least like the

beginnings of lyrical ideas because lyrics are always the thing that hold a record up in our

experience. You know, we'll have like a musical idea we're all excited about, stoked on. And then

I'll like, often take the responsibility of trying to finish the words and we're a lyrical band.

So we can't just sort of rely on guitar solos, you know, all the time. I'm allowed one per record.

But you know, much as we'd love like musical instrumental breaks. And actually, I remember I

sent Bono some early demos. This song, he was like, don't forget to let the band rip here and

there. You know, like, let it be a band because it's a band. And I want some instrumental breaks.

Which was great. It was really helpful feedback because it was all quite wordy. And so I think we

put in extra sections here and there. Musical sections, like bits in composition, my son,

Gaines, his angels. And I begin again and stay, both half of these instrumental breaks. And then

I think we're important for the balance of the record.

The lads had sat me down at the beginning of the process and said, like, give me the

vote confidence when it came to lyrics saying, like, just go and have the thought and feel

free to sort of run right. And effectively gave me the responsibility of writing the lyrics on

this one. And I took that very seriously because it's a a privilege for your oldest mates in music

to put that faith in you, but be a responsibility. And I think you do have to kind of train for that.

The way you train for it, I think, is just surrounding yourself in words, you know. And just

trying to swim in ideas and words, particularly wherever they come from. And there's some practices

that I find helpful with that, but in the mornings I go off to a coffee shop and had some, which was

like a 20 minute drive. So I'd listen to the demos from the day before. And think about where

there are any gaps musically or lyrically. And then go and just swim in words for a couple of hours

in a coffee shop, which is super wholesome, but also productive. And so I'd sit in the

effectively right poetry in the corner of the shop, drink coffee and then get back by the time

we'd sort of meet at like 11. Having does some physical exercises, some mental exercise, then sort

of feel ready for the day. And and then we'd all get around Gensers in our hands. And the words

would be accessible in a way that didn't slow the process down because in the past I think,

you know, we've got excited about music and then kind of left the words to last. And that can

be a really unhelpful way to write a song. I think the better way to write a song is to start with

the thought and an idea of what you want to say and then build the music around that. I mean,

we've done a different ways to different, I think, levels of effect. But this way worked well for

us, yeah. And given how speedy the process was on this album, we were ever concerned at any point

that, you know, you might commit to something that later you'll end up just not liking very much.

Great question, yeah. I'd be interested to know your answer on that, Mark, because I think

especially lyrically if you had that doubt. It's the most confident that I've ever felt in any

music we'd put out. It's weird. I think part of that is this relational trust. Like I knew the

lads weren't going to let me put stuff in that was going to have a shelf life lyrically. But at the

same time, no one was getting in the way of the instinct creatively wherever it came from,

whether that was musical or lyrical. So it felt like the most connected and instinctive

record we've made, you know, because we finished this thing over a year ago and we've had to hear

it back a bit recently. And I've never felt this peaceful about a body of work that we've made

where I just don't question any of it. I'm sure in years to come, I'll listen back to a lyrical

and be like, oh, I've never had this level of distance from the process where I've been able to go

like, yeah, wouldn't change a thing. I really wouldn't change a thing. I want to add to it.

Yeah, right. It makes me want to write more. It just makes me go like, oh, I think we're getting better

at this. Let's keep going, you know. Yeah, I was going to say, I think that the word regrets

interesting in the form of that question because it's like regret is definitely an optional feeling.

You know, you can choose to regret something or you can choose not to. And I think you're either

moving forward or you're stuck in that singular offering. And I think we have more confidence than

ever that this is not the only thing that will ever do. Price fires are sits within a body of work

in a good way, right? It has a family of concepts and records. And of course, we believe today,

like it stands on its own two feet, but it's up to us whether, as we say, five, 10, 20 years from now,

we choose to look back and like criticize it. I don't think we would probably just say it's just

going better or do something else and not look backwards too much in stew. I think that's generally

been our approach. I wouldn't say that's a prize fighter's specific thing although I do think we

have a bit more post-match analysis on previous records. I think we're learning the more time we do

this that that's not that helpful. That's not that productive or creative. Was there a bunch of

other stuff that you had to kind of sift through to find the things that you were the most confident

with or is pretty much everything that you write crafted and shaped until it works? I didn't think

there was a bunch of stuff that we left on the cutting room floor as they say, but then

Dad, he works with us. He was in the studio most of the time. He was rolling camera the whole time

he had some GoPro set up and he was just videoing. He sent us over some clips four or five days ago.

I was watching this thing back and I was like, what is that? What's that?

Completely erased it from the birthing process of this album. I was like, we were doing that for

how long? That thing that didn't go anywhere. So sometimes I remember he plays tricks some as I

think, because I would have answered that same way. No, we only finished what we finished and

you've heard it, but actually we've got a couple more that we know and we like and they'll come

out at some point. It was so creatively curious the time we spent at Lompond. Just why it's so

magical and Aaron creates this environment that was like a total lack of cynicism, which is so

helpful creatively. But of course, as a band, working with a producer who's known you for

such a long time, we've been friends for 15 years. There's such a level of trust in the room

that if someone has an idea they're passionate about, you're going to help them chase it down

and see what turns out. There was a lack of judgment for each other's ideas. It was really cool.

Whilst also Aaron massaging us into a sort of flow that had a destination. So it wasn't just like,

that's right, a concerto or a rap album or something. It was all like with this sense of purpose,

that was really helpful I think. But it was very subtle. It was like, cool, that's fun.

Should we just finish this other thought that we had as well? And I think that's what must have

happened. So we were all just so positive all the time. We're like, yeah, finish that thought and

I guess forgot about the other one that wasn't as good or something.

And Ben from your side, when Marcus comes in with an idea, are there any particular things

you're listening out for that you'll grab on to? I tried to like both in the studio and the

collaborative process but also just generally speaking be not super cognizant of how I would answer

that question because I think it's just really how it makes you feel. Like do you react to it

instinctively? Is there something that's in it? Because I think once you start putting up scaffolding

of expectation, firstly you're like missing out on being surprised, which is a really sad way of being.

But also I think that I think a lot of people, if they hear iconic songs of the last

however many years, 50, 60 years, the best songs you kind of would say that anyone could write it.

There'll be a sentiment that you feel incredibly familiar to or be a melody that reminds you of a lullaby.

This isn't about grandstanding with any kind of expertise about fancy words and

complicated melodies necessarily. Sometimes just like a simple honest sentiment conveyed whether

that's just a stanza or a relationship between a lyric and a melody that completely changes the

way that lyric feels. It's in there and that's something that you feel and I think we're empaths

the three of us and certainly Aaron as well. So you could kind of like sometimes I feel that you

come in with an idea that you've convinced yourself of maybe you've sat on it for a bit too long

and you can convince all you like but if your collaborators aren't feeling it, it's not going to

go much further and I think we're quite good at sticking to our guns on that. Like there aren't

songs that we're like okay well you know we'll put that out even though we don't think it's that good

but you really love it do you? Okay we're a bit more like well yeah I feel a lot of it maybe we could

work on that and get it a bit further and sometimes that isn't something that we do together

sometimes that's just like feedback on price-fired so there was even more of that and like Marcus said

then you sort of can tell in the room that it wasn't quite it and then leave the room and come back

into the room but they improved and that day it's like yeah that's really it stay was a good

example of that where that song was kicking around for a couple of years and it wasn't quite unlocking

and it was Aaron's mirror on that song that was what we needed and it opened up I think a whole new

story in Marxist-Head for where that song could go and what it could be about where maybe in

its original inception it wasn't fully realised and so yeah I'm kind of intentionally being

worried about the answer to that question because it's not a paint by numbers ones and twos operation

now it's really interesting to hear the the way in which the songs are kind of curated and the way

you feed back to each other and take feedback from Aaron as well I mean we think the melody

writing's really strong let me write from the off you've got here you've got rubber band man banjo

song run together all of those have really strong single choruses don't they so there's definitely

some kind of discussion and negotiation going on about what are the best versions of these songs

before they get ultimately realised yeah they're definitely were and I think you know wherever it

comes from in the room if someone has a discomfort with something just taste wise it got to hear it

out and try and beat it most of the time you know unless someone else has an even stronger feeling

that is great that is a conversation and because there's so much trust and I think relational equity

we're able to like be vulnerable with each other on that too and then sometimes it'll take

someone else being like I am sure about this this is going to be great you know we promised

we promised I hold you I hold you to it the redden the fire light the cold stone it's waiting for you

the roses the sun rise the sea fall it's waiting for you so well you're staying

so well you're staying I swear I'll stay

so many times Aaron said to us because I think in the past we've been guilty of overthinking things

and Aaron was really helpful just being like guys don't touch that as a fan of your band that's

great that's what I want to hear from you like chill let's move on you know so many times and

lyrically that spirit was really in the room so I put things down lyrically that I wouldn't have

done before with this band because of the confidence I think that the three of them that Ted Ben and

Aaron had in my instincts particularly those 10 days in long pond because we had longer to write the

other lyrics you know here started years ago stay started years ago but you know songs like

conversation my son gays and angels and bathlands and alica I'll tell you everything and clover

were written on spot with thoughts and ideas that had percolated for a bit you know we're inspired

by various things that I've been reading for a while but like most other than alica those other

ones were all written in the room on the day we recorded the song alica wrote in a poetry workshop

in prison bro of course yeah but it was one of those instinctive writing things we were doing

with the lads we're going and do like poetry workshops and the poetry workshops are really like

flow state writing artists way star writing or it's just like scribbling it down at the end you

can tear out if you need to you know well you can take it out with you and I took this one out and

it was at the end of a session where we got deep into chatting actually and then we each

just scribbled down a quick poem and alica was mine and I said it to the chaplain actually I was

like am I allowed to tape itself you know because I actually do write songs and this could be quite

helpful he was like yeah so it was first draft and then I showed it to the guys and we built some

music around it basically but yeah badlands I'll tell you everything clover conversation my son

gags as an angel's yeah them four particularly were written like on the spot and it was so dope

because I was able to like I'd write a line then we'll be at the piano Aaron holder guitar

taboo playing bass I'd write a line and then look up to my left and my right and everyone we like

yep and then I just keep going and then inevitably once the first drafts down I immediately start

criticizing it and that's when the lads are like no just like live with it let's live with it if

you really want to change something we can change something but let's just live with it and I say

like 90% of the time we didn't go back and change anything another at leaf dry an endless summer

I was quiet I was alright teleport me under it was a photograph before we had one another

I was in pieces then till you put me back together so I reached across remember my heart

remember where I came from take a hit before I go is this all there is what do you mean is this not enough

here is this all there is

aside from the dynamic between the four of you would you say that the physical space of long pond

itself and its location did that help shape the music that you made there would you say yeah for

sure I remember visiting the beginning of long pond before it was all built out at the beginning

of our friendship 2015 2016 yeah this great vision for the space and when we went back for prize

fighter that was the first time actually going in order bits glory you know now it's like hallowed

ground made so by the songs and the creativity that happened there and I think it's more humble than

perhaps people understand that's what I'd say about it it's a pretty simple space it's also

where Aaron lives and this barn that's down by the pond has a live room in it with a vocal isolation

booth all of the work that you're doing is just in one room so you're in there with the speakers

and all the gear and most of the time just recording like that people are just like try not to

cough whilst you're recording that's the vibe and then the other part of that is a little kitchen

where we would sit and mostly eat soup in our breaks at lunchtime that was a lot of soup it was

fucking wholesome it was very nice very nice time of years be eating that much soup

sickeningly wholesome yeah and then upstairs there are a couple of beds it's not the place where

you go and you press a button and someone comes in being like oh would you like this it's like pretty

self-sufficient I think that's good because you're there to kind of work and disappointing lack of

staff basically Gerald? Gerald's not here Gerald's not gonna help you Ted was outraged

and the way that the room is set up is set up for a producer who also engineers and writes and plays

so his style of recording suits his style of writing and his style of writing suits his style

of recording so his favorite guitar sound at the moment it's just a plug straight into his desk

I think it's not semen's desk and he just plugs straight into the thing and then the isolation

booth is mostly used for guitar basically saying guitar is a J45 which I think is a 60s guitar

some burst most of the vocals we did on the SM7 sound on the sofa maybe with headphones on but

often without and just not worry too much about like high-five sounding vocals because you can do a

lot of that in post and so focusing on performances rather than like the detail so actually we've

listened in isolation when we've been setting up the live show a bit you know you listen to something

in solo and you hear all these mistakes and it's kind of cool you're like good I'm glad because it

lives in breathes you know so the room is in the round and Aaron can play guitar and beyond the

computer I mean doesn't need too much because Bella Blasco is the lightest engineer in the world she's

fucking unbelievable she was with us pretty much the whole time and the sofa is behind the desk

and there's two wheelie chairs at the desk one for Aaron one for Bella we'd sit on the sofa with

cherry the side and it was like that's all you need it's all very flow state you know like you can

go straight from sit on the sofa take a back seat and listen as the producer step in as the

engineer step in as the player be on hand as a writer so yes the space really mattered in terms

of how the record came out and I think the geographical location mattered too because like you really

do feel unplugged from the world so if you're disciplined around social media and the internet

and stuff that you really can be in your own bubble and then really you're only experienced at

the songs outside of the room is driving 20 minutes the closest town so I felt like it was the

least self-aware we've been in a recording process like if you record in Hollywood or even in

London or home even for us you know you're distracted by family or city or comparison or audience

in a way that just we weren't at long pond which is why it's kind of magical because it is such a

different location and I think changing locations is really helpful for the creative process too

because you can I think probably get stuck in a right a few as a writer particularly stay only

in the same place I think like switching things up geographically is helpful and Ben you introduce

the French connection synth to the sound as well didn't you I'm a bit of a gear nerd as you might

have guessed and I have never even heard of it no I and I have been becoming increasingly again I

played especially around vintage synths since our time at Paul Atworth at the church because he's

really got some cool stuff up there and perhaps end but yeah I was doing some writing with a bunch

of friends sort of an annual get together that we do which is about an hour south of long pond

and there's this amazing writer an artist performer called Joe P and he had found on a blog about Johnny

Greenwood all about the French connection and he had just bought one before he came to this like

writing hang that we were doing and it was three days and he spent the first day trying to get it

to work and he took the whole thing apart and like fixed it and everyone was like it's a bit we're

the Joe came here because he's just sat in the corner with a soldering iron he doesn't seem to really

be participating much and so eventually when he got it on and then yeah wire it into a bunch of

modular synths and it's a weird chain for what it really does which is send us a signal it has

like a little hoop on a string that goes up and down so it has this kind of like a pheromanesque

thing without sounding too old over the place like a pheroman can and so I came full of excitement

I got on and they're not easy to find and bought it in kind of with the same like kid like energy

and then we started putting it on stuff and it was like well this is a fun hybrid because I think

sonically we like to straddle certain worlds and what that particular instrument does is it gives

you some of the feeling of a pedal still without being exactly that and it also feels a bit like a

synth but you don't feel like you've heard it before so like from a modern pop rock worlds which we

love whilst also playing with some acoustic instruments it kind of did a little bit of a bridging

job and it's nice it just sits in the back there and you know finds a kind of build out world out

without kind of drowning the songs in it too much either because that's the danger with those

types of gear as you get more excited about the sound of the gear than you are about serving the

song so you have to show a little bit of self-restraint and then when like stop recording you can let go

as much as you want and you know the wheels come off then suddenly you're in one of Ted's like

psychedelic funk jams but we do try and use these tools kind of like they're intended to be used

as tools to help get the feeling of the song right we love the the title of the record as well it's

such a strong title isn't it it really kind of anchors the whole thing it seems to us and you can

kind of envisage maybe a character for the title or you can just maybe be more general with it and

associate it with the idea of resilience and skill and toughness it just feels very apt thanks

yeah it was funny it was like we rubbish with titles you know we fuck around with titles loads it

gets really frustrating for people at work with us because we'll call the song like 10 different

things before settling on a name and it's normally like the day we have an artwork deadline for

a final but a lot of the time a song will just be called something because an engineer saves it

as that and you're just messing around it's an idea and it's quite a natural thing to do to be

like I want to call the song this and then I'm going to write it you know but on this record the

identity of it very early on was just prize fighter you know all the other records have been

labeled very late in the process and this one was labeled pretty early I think and it was a bit

of a like throw your cap over the wall and then you've got to go and chase it you know you got

good get it so you got to climb the wall together I think it was like a statement of intent of it

we were laying down the gauntlet for ourselves being like let's take a swing at this one you know

but the character in my head of the prize fighter came on the first morning when we were

electric lady with with Aaron when he popped in and he'd first played us this idea he'd been sketching

with Justin Vernon I instantly got on legal pad out there was just on the desk in studio A and

electric lady and just started scribbling some words down for this character that I had in my head

for that song straight away she's I heard it Ben and I were like both crying because we both felt

like this is kind of music we've been wanting to try and make and at times have felt close to you

but like this is so exciting and for me it's unusual to get that like lyrically inspired straight

away normally requires more work than that and the word prize fighter doesn't appear in the song

it's just what I felt like the character was this guy who had like this kind of fascinating mixture

of nostalgia and ambition you know this like looking backwards and looking forwards thing you know

he's like heartbroken and in love he's ashamed but also like proud it was just really clear

with me but I should just stay put till you're gone just say he's really not me now is he

Justin has quite a distinctive aesthetic doesn't he quite a signature to his sound do you

have to navigate that in some way to kind of not lose sight of your own voice as soon as you put

his voice on anything it's like he's so distinctive and but yeah he had harmonic ideas on that

that we never would have come up with you know he's unique as an artist and and we've been fans and

friends for a long time and always wanted to find a way to work together have watched him collaborate

with so many people and just been in awe of the output and hope that it would happen at the right

time and this was the right time you know firstly you have to check that he's cool with us

fucking around with the idea because he did it as a sketch with Aaron and then we had to see if

he'd be up for singing anything on it which required us sending him the song and that was an

insecure moment for me it's like what if Bonnie Burr hates the song you know and then to ask him

yeah to approve the mix of what he'd done because he's you know he's proud in the mix in a way

that I'm stoked on and that we all wanted and reflects the DNA of where that song came from in a

way that was beautiful to us but it's not a feature I love it when artists see that for each other

it's like the 60s you know people like jump on each other's records without the need for

a feature it's cool you know I did it with Taylor Swift because of Aaron she came down to my

studio and recorded and I sang like Justin did on price while trying to think but without the writing

bit and I sang on one of her songs and we didn't feel like it was a feature I love that you can do

that that's what the musical community to us means a lot of it's about taste isn't it like Ben

was saying not going too far with any one thing how do you know when to leave something alone

when Aaron says so yeah I was going to say is Aaron you sort of gauge for that kind of thing

I think it has to be in band dynamics you have to have a a tie breaker and there's be a certain amount

of difference to the producer I mean I think we wanted the difference because we believe in him

creatively so much but really anyone who is wearing that hat in that moment when you're at the

point of like is this too much is it right is the taste going sideways did we over salt we've

been quite good really throughout our career of understanding how that works in the studio and

also there's a real people management part of that from a producers point of view there's a lot

of psychological games going on it's not kind of as straightforward a conversation as you might

want but it's kind of maybe as soft and as nuanced conversations you might need in order to not

feel like you're losing momentum completely just because that idea itself was bad and really

the moment where that can go most sideways is in the last 20% you can ruin a good thing

pretty easily in the studio you know by keeping on tinkering going back in re-tracking you lose

a little bit of perspective and I think Aaron he's brilliant at maintaining that perspective and he

would often take himself away every day you know there was like a school run or he'd go for a drive

and he would be like I feel like I understand why I sit with this music he wasn't slowing the fox

hole 24-7 a bit like Marx was lurically in the cafe but I think Aaron knew what he was hoping

to get out of the next 12 hours because he slept on it I think that's important that is all

part of what makes it work and the guest contributors on the album span quite different worlds musically

don't you mean you've got Hozier, Chris Stapleton, Gigi Perez, Gracie Abrams you don't often have guests

on your records do you as far as I can recall no we really haven't done that to this extent you know

done on EPs and we've obviously like collaborated a ton live but on record we haven't done that before

and I think it was a part of like the confidence that we felt actually in our identity and maybe

having done rush me so recently it helped us with that but we just felt like we know who we are

we can invite people into this and no one's gonna get confused as to what we are and who we are

they're gonna know their guests like Aaron has been to you know and so we felt like confident as

secure enough I think in our identity to bring people in who really added creatively to the record

and we didn't have a list of people that we wanted to go to it was just like these are people

we have relationships with other than Chris Stapleton and I'm just like a turbo fan of Chris Stapleton

it's as simple as that I just said that it's like if there's any way I can get to Chris Stapleton

I want to ask him to sing on this song because he's the swaggest fucking singer in the world right now

you know his tone is unreal I love it so much and he said yeah we had a phone call and

lot of like mutual love and respect and talked about lots of areas of commonality and

in life as well as in work and and he was like yes and it over I'll do it next week

and then he sent it back and like I cried I was so fucking happy man

yeah he turned it into my dream Gracie you know we've known since the beginning of her career

and I followed her very closely because of her work with Aaron I think but also just because we

love her and she had been you know in the building when we reconnected with Aaron and started

sending things back and forth and I started sending her lyrics really early on and asking her opinion

because she knew the demos that we were writing on she'd heard the banjo song demo that Aaron

had written with John Belian as a sketch idea and she was like you guys should definitely do

something with that it's got your name written all over it I love it I'm addicted to it you know

and I was like cool what do you think of these lyrics for it and she was like yeah you know

and was this sort of cheerleader for the record the whole way through actually I looked through

our text the other day you know she was like almost like an A&R for this record so then at the

end of the process we just sent her the whole thing was like if you fancy singing on it and the

thing you have an opening bite and I'm so stoked that she chose Badlands because I think I'd

partly written those lyrics hoping she might honestly because it's kind of a Bonnie and Clyde get away

car song you know right yeah with some Bonnie there weirdness I think because he was involved in

the writing of that instrumental too and and yeah she made that song into the thing that it is

we also loved your story from Rubber band man about the text from Brandy Carlisle yeah yeah

she's just another great little songwriting moment isn't it we add Brandy on the podcast at one

point so we sort of know that that's something she would do she's read man she's fun she's just fun

she's like my spirit animal and I'm hers we can go months and not talk and then we'll just

call each other up you know there's kind of friends that you just get straight back in where you

left off you know we've been through some really cool experiences together with Joni Mitchell

at the bowl and at the gorge and at Joni's house doing these jams and she what with me on my solo

record and I watched her and Alton do their thing and watch their friendship which is hilarious

and yeah she's just been a real sister I think that's cool like crew of people that all

had a hand in the making of this record it takes a village you know yeah are you going to draw

our mat network again for more in this run of productivity that you're in the middle of

you know the way that Aaron approaches is which I love and it's honestly part of our DNA as well

it's like just make music for fun and stuff that sticks and feels relevant to our like

quote unquote career cool but like the approach is just making music with your mates for fun

and I think we lost some of that it all got a bit serious there for a while yeah but you know

obviously take the work so take Tory seriously and take the recording process seriously but like

be a bit more playful again you know because those early songs that we wrote we basically wrote

them so that we can have a fucking good time that night when we were playing at the ICA with Joni

Flynn we're like far out the brain of Joni Flynn is gonna be wicked we're gonna party it's gonna be

great we need one more song to really make it fun so we wrote Little Lime Man and that night we

played Little Lime Man you know that's spirit of making music with your mates for fun and then

seeing it flower from there so I think whether or not we go back to the same people up we don't

really know and that's what's quite fun we'll follow our nose and follow the fun well we'll be

watching with the interest thank you guys lovely thank you thank you so much lovely conversation

thanks for getting us to talk about things in ways that we haven't done before appreciate it

nothing lasts forever baby though it breaks my heart you're a world away you're still the same

you know that I remember everything that was Marcus Mumford and Ben Loveitt of Mumford and

Suns talking to us about their lean contender of a record prize fighter very thoughtful guys who

really are in a great place creatively and aren't quite district right now yeah feels like they

really know at this point how to turn raw ideas into songs they do and that process they

described with Aaron going through this kind of gathering of material in New York comparison or

the places was really cool yeah it sounded at one point like Marcus was pursuing Aaron across the

world like it was Jason Bourne or something for them they settled in upstate New York didn't they

and in 10 days managed to pull together this incredibly coherent record yeah and not only that

but they managed the contributions of all of those well chosen guests as well you know like Hosea

and Gracie Abrams and also those who chipped in behind the scenes like Phineas or Brandy Carlyle or

Justin Vernon yeah and Justin's not even a top line name on the record is he he's kind of the ghost

in the machine yeah and yet his style and sound is put to perfect use and as we said that curation

is basically just an endless stream of good decisions isn't it and you know that takes a lot of

practice and experience to not fail at that well they've been around a long time now haven't they

I think they really home that skill of making good choices and you can see that in the expediency

of prize fighter as well you know landen less than a year after Rushmeer it makes you wonder

doesn't it how many great albums would have happened if it hadn't been for the promotional cycle

that follows a release yeah but luckily they managed to take advantage of the mixing stage of

Rushmeer to hook up with Mr Desner and they're coming back to it a year later and they're still

happy with it aren't they well I think that's when you know you've captured something pretty special

so thanks to Marcus and Ben for the lovely conversation prize fighter is available everywhere

cheers again to Flossy for organizing and we'll be back in your feeds in no time take care