Ep 223 The AA Problem Addiction Experts Keep Missing

0:00Addiction experts dangerous AA blind spot. If addiction experts are going to be recommending AA as a modality, solution, not necessarily a treatment, but as a place to go to solve a medical problem of alcohol addiction, then criticism, risks, harms, adverse experiences with such modality as alcoholics anonymous should openly be discussed. This is part of what allows for informed consent. And of course, criticisms should be examined, not pathologized, or branded as bashing without actually examining what those criticisms are saying. Hello and welcome to the Curson Johnson podcast. I am super excited you're here today for what I feel is a very important conversation.

1:04So definitely let me know what you think about this in the comments below on addiction experts and how they are speaking about addiction recovery, specifically in alcoholics anonymous. Now, I also want to say that although I'm going to be using one case study here on one specific addiction expert, this isn't specifically about her if that makes sense. This is about in general how addiction experts often will use terms like AA basher to dismiss and turn a blind eye quite literally on anybody who is talking about harms or risks or adverse experiences to either AA ideology or even alcoholics anonymous in general, including the fellowship and what might happen there. Today we're going to be talking about Anna Lemsky who said on a podcast, she said AA is cult and she also said people who are criticizing AA she's not sure why there are so many AA basher's these days.

2:05To me, those things do not go together. It's like if you know it's a cult, why are you calling as basher's if we talk about the harms in the cult? So again, this is not specifically about her. I actually think by the way that she has one of the most refreshing perspectives on 12 step because she is very vocal about 12 step or AA specifically not being for everybody. Addiction recovery is very individual. Try the path that works for you. Let all the paths be on the table. I fully agree with that perspective. And so I applaud her for having what I would say a very evolved perspective from what I've seen on addiction recovery as an addiction expert, but she is missing one piece which I consider extremely problematic. So that's what we're going to be talking about today. Now, Anna Lemsky is an author of a book called dopamine nation. I actually read that several years ago and loved it. Let me know if you read that. I thought it was a great book. She's also a Stanford professor of psychiatry. She is the medical director of Stanford addiction medicine and she is a prominent voice on

3:09addiction on the internet and all of the things. So specifically, she is talking about AA as a cult. I love that she has put her neck on the line to actually say this. I honestly think a lot of addiction experts, I also use like experts in quotes. They are either afraid to say AA as a cult or they don't even look at it. They don't even question or examine why people might say that or how AA might be cult-like or a high control system. A lot of people seem to just disregard it and even maybe make fun of it a little bit. Okay, now let's take a look specifically at what she said. I want to understand this. So yes, so a lot of times patients will say to me, oh, you know, I don't want to go to AA. It's a cult. It's a cult. It's a cult. It's exactly why it works. Okay. Okay, point blank. She is agreeing with her patients who say that they think AA is a cult.

4:13She's like, yeah, bro, it is. That's precisely why it works. Let me know what you think about that because that's what I think. And I'm just one opinion here. This is just literally my opinion. Let me know what you think. I think AA works precisely because it's a cult. I think that the beliefs that we are taught indoctrinated into believing these ideas as facts as we go through our AA journey, especially if we get immersed deeply in AA, I was AA true believer from 2009 until 2020. So 10 and a half years, I was an AA true believer. I was indoctrinated that these the belief system of AA ideology was presented as facts. I took them on eventually as facts. I believed it was true. And then I indoctrinated others in the form of speaking and meetings about it as if it's true, sponsoring other people, be lying to newcomers, inviting them to coffee and sharing the good word on AA religion essentially. When I left AA, it was a big grieving period that I went through that I had indoctrinated people into the beliefs in AA and positioned them as if they were true because I realized

5:16that they're not true. And so yeah, I have a lot of empathy for those of us who leave AA and feel mortified and guilty. Lots of feelings for either bringing people into AA or having indoctrinated people into AA through our participation in alcoholics anonymous. And when I really think about it, it's because I believe some of the baloney beliefs in AA, the belief in those baloney beliefs helped me stay sober, some of the fear, some of the, no, I don't think it's even required, right? There are non-harmful ways to change your relationship with alcohol, alcohol addiction, including abstinence if that's the route that you feel is that's for you or you want to go. So we don't need to believe the baloney, but I do think that believing the baloney helped me stay sober. And when Anna says, because it is a cult is exactly why it works. Yeah, that makes sense to me. So let me know what you think about that below in the comments. No, I know some people will say AA is a cult and that doesn't make it work.

6:18Then we have calling criticism, bashing. I find this incredibly problematic. And I didn't even know that this was something that was occurring until I criticized AA and I was called an AA basher. I'm like, huh? So the first time I heard about this AA bashing rhetoric narrative was when it was being applied to me. I've been called an a basher. I've been called anti-A. I am not anti-A and I have never been anti-A. I am anti not telling the truth about it. I think the truth about alcoholics anonymous should be known for everybody so that we can choose if we want to go, if we want to stay, if we want to recommend it to other people and how long we engage and how deeply we engage and what we take on throughout our journey inside AA if we choose to go. Why you want to hide it from us? You know what I mean? So if we want to talk about the truth about AA, we're considered basher's.

7:19I mean, it kind of sounds 1984 vibes to me. I get it if you've been indoctrinated to believe that AA ideology is true, which I would argue a lot of society is, culture is, and very strategically, by the way. The first lady of alcoholics anonymous, Marty Mann, spent a lot of effort. In fact, she made it like her life purpose to it literally to systematically indoctrinate different institutions in the United States, but also globally. She would give sometimes two to five speeches a day indoctrinating people into AA ideology. So many people believe AA to be true, even people who have never been, including a lot of these so-called addiction experts. So let's specifically look now at a clip of Anna talking about AA bashing on Peter Atia's podcast. For people who actively participate, for reasons that I don't entirely understand that the press and the media and sort of the culture has been very 12 step bashing a blade.

8:22I don't know quite where that comes from. Anna uses the term AA bashing. And when people use the term AA basher, what they're doing is they're taking any risks, harms, downsides that are being spoken about AA ideology or AA in general. I typically speak about AA ideology, not the people, but the actual ideas of AA. They're taking those risks, harms, and downsides, ignoring them essentially and flipping it around and making the person who is speaking about the harms the problem. So if you speak about the harms, you're bashing it. So you're a basher. Instead of what's being bashed, it's about the one who's doing the alleged bashing. So the one who is doing the speaking is rhetorically positioned as the aggressor, which reverses

9:24the scrutiny. This is what blocks the conversations that could be super helpful and allow for informed consent because it takes the conversation from potential harms, downsides, or risks of associating or being immersed in AA ideology. And it reframes all those potential downsides as you're attacking AA. Now once this started happening to me, I learned a term called ad hominem, which is where you attack the person saying the thing instead of engage with what they're actually saying. This shuts down any critical thinking, any research, any conversation that I think would ultimately really help everybody. People get so fixated on their beliefs that they can't see past them. I've heard this called ideological possession by Carl Jung, where your ideas have you.

10:25You don't have an idea. Your ideas have you. So if you have the idea that AA is great, AA saves lives, AA is free, AA is the best or whatever. Those ideas that have you because the world view becomes your own are blocking you. And again, this is from experts to who have never been to AA. You think, okay, my clients went to AA. They got sober or whenever it helped them like on average or some of them or it could blind you from actually thinking critically about what the people are saying when they have opposing views that could actually ultimately help the people you're helping or help you understand the bigger picture. So if we're only allowed to look at the good and not the bad, I don't know. I don't really think that that helps anybody. Let me know what you think. The whole idea of basher and bashing is like an anti-harm reduction. It's like centering on anti-harm reduction or centering on the risks don't matter. Centering on the harms don't matter.

11:26Which really is bananas when you think about it in any other context. For example, let's say you're talking about driving. You're talking about cars and you're saying cars can be dangerous. We need to wear seatbelts because there could be crashes. So I'm going to talk about automobile safety. Here are some examples of how people haven't been safe in cars. And you're just talking about how to use a car more safely or potential dangers and harms associated with cars. But instead of actually engaging with any of the points you've talked about, including wearing seatbelts, you're branded as a driving basher or that is driving bashing. I mean, helping me out is with that sound. Now let's talk about sex. So let's imagine you're talking about condoms, safer sex, STIs, unwanted pregnancies, whatever, or any of the negative downsides, potential harms or consequences associated, the risks with sex.

12:27And you're talking about those to help people either have safer sex or to prevent harm when it comes to sex. But instead of engaging with your conversation and even talking about condoms or even thinking about them, you are branded as a sex basher or that is sex bashing full stop. Now imagine if experts and professionals about sex are calling that sex bashing. Let's get bananas people. What the heck? Okay, one more while we're at it. Now imagine you're talking about surgeries and you're talking about the potential harms that are associated with surgeries informed consent around surgeries. The statistics of people of like things that can happen or go wrong or the downside of surgery or even of anesthesia or anything associated with surgeries. We really know this as informed consent and we actually want this, right? But imagine if you're doing that, you're talking about harms, consequences, dangers or adverse experiences with surgeries and you're being known as a surgery basher or that

13:30is called surgery bashing. Again, this is bad shit bananas. To me, it's the same. When somebody says a a basher or a a bashing, I'm like, hello, what the heck are we even talking about here? Might as well call me a sex basher and a surgery basher and a driving basher while you're at it. But we wouldn't do that because we know that's bananas. But somehow people's heads are all wrapped around that if you talk about harms, consequences, negative experiences or downsides with alcoholics anonymous, you're suddenly bashing and you're a basher. You're a basher. And it's not that the name calling is a problem who cares, water off a duck's back, right? The problem is the conversation doesn't go further. Now imagine if that's with cars. There's no seat belts warrant. More people are dying. It's important to talk about the harms and the consequences. All bananas stuff aside, we deserve better. We deserve to know the risks associated with what we're engaging in instead of having the people who talk about the stuff, the downsides, just branded as basher and disregarded.

14:35So that was physical risks. What about ideological risks? Let's go into the word cult for a minute. I want to walk you through why it sounds bananas to call somebody a basher who talks about what you call a cult. Again, this isn't specifically about Anna. I love that she recognizes AA as a cult. She's just looking at what it is and she found at the same conclusion I found when I went through the cult checklist and could find out that AA met every criteria. Did a whole video on that? Last one of this video is about I'll link the video here if you want to see why I feel that AA meets all the criteria for the cult for being a cult. But so she recognizes this expert recognizes AA as a cult. But then anybody who is talking negatively about it is a basher. Imagine if instead of AA, we're talking about Charlie Manson.

15:38And if discussing Charlie Manson or specifically discussing the Manson family, the negative aspects of it, maybe you're talking about the deaths or the abuse or the mind control or any of that stuff. And you're not taken seriously by the professionals. Instead you're called a Manson basher. That's Manson bashing. That is Manson bashing. Sounds bananas, right? But when we look at it through a slightly different angle and the reason why I think it's so important to look at it through a slightly different angle is because globally, thanks Marty man, the nation has been indoctrinated into AA is the way. So people are indoctrinated into AA ideology and the belief systems of AA without realizing it. So they don't understand what they're calling bashing and what they're calling a cult and how it actually is completely problematic when you take it out of the AA perspective because so many people are in the AA perspective AA ideology and don't really realize that like

16:41the fish who doesn't know it's in water. A lot of people, including experts, are the fish who don't know they're in water. They're seeped into the AA ideology, but not actually able to see it. Yeah. Okay. Now let's talk about Jim Jones. Imagine if you're talking about some of the negative aspects, some of the harms, some of the risks associated with Jonestown with Jim Jones and that whole belief system and what happened to them. But instead of being met seriously or heard or engaged with at all, the experts are calling you a Jonestown basher. That is Jonestown bashing. If you talk about the downside or the negative aspects of Jim Jones and Jonestown, you're Jonestown basher. Again, bananas. Let's just do one more over here. Nexium.

17:42NXIVM. Nexium. Remember Keith Ranieri? Was that like a sex cult? There was a lot of abuse there. Wasn't there. Okay. So imagine if you're talking about what happened in Nexium. The women who got branded literally with his initials. The sex trafficking that he is currently incarcerated for. Imagine if you're talking about Nexium, what happened there with Keith Ranieri, what you were believing, what the abuses were all of that. But instead of taking seriously by the experts, you are called a Nexium basher. You're a Nexium basher. You are Nexium bashing. How dare you Nexium bash? Again, bash, bananas. But somehow, because I'm already man maybe, let me know why you think somehow it's known as AA bashing or being an AA basher. So even somebody who is as open-minded and thoroughly researched and I do respect her work,

18:47Anna, because this isn't really about her. This is about the ideology that can get into people's minds. Then they can't see straight and I would say that in this instance she represents that. But a lot of people don't even recognize that AA is actually a cult. But even for someone who does recognize AA as a cult is calling the people who say things against it as basher's. Makes me think that we have a lot of work to do, don't we? For everybody like society to wake up from the AA and Dr. Nation. That's just a fact. When I say man's in bashing, Jones town bashing, Dexium bashing, I mean, it just sounds wild, right? Because it's like, it's like a side-eye. It's like, I don't even get it. The terminology sounds absurd because the potential harm is precisely why the scrutiny is warranted. Ultimately, I think it's very frightening and disturbing that criticisms of a system like AA

19:53which is, there's a lot of people go to AA to position criticisms of AA as hostility or as this person has a resentment or as this person is a dry drunk or like whatever, right? Has ulterior motives or whatever. It all just flips it around from the actual scrutiny. So it's like AA is the sacred cow that is above scrutiny. But nothing should be. And if you love AA, wouldn't you want the people who go to be safer? Wouldn't you want to know about the harm so that you weren't complicit in perpetuating it? But that's not how cults work. And experts, I would hope, who call AA a cult.

20:53Would understand that. That there's harm inherent in cults, in the coercive control, in the belief systems, in the way people are treated and being trapped for life. People say, AA is not a cult because you can leave anytime. Yeah, there's no locks, bro. The control is in our mind. Cult stays words to control us. When we're told we're essentially, if we leave, we're going to drink and to drink as to die. Then we can't leave. Leaving feels impossible. The gun at our head, the lock on the door is our own fear that we've been indoctrinated to believe through the repetition of the messages inside the group. Of course, shutting down criticism of harm and risks and downsides just allows the downsides harm and risk to contain. And we deserve better. Why not just be honest, bro?

21:54Why are you afraid of why is the truth scaring you? Shouldn't we be rigorously honest? Namaste. What do you think about the term AA bashing? All right, I look forward to hearing from you in the comments. Take care. Bye.