Ep. - 1550 - EPSTEIN & MAXWELL

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4:11And make sure to use my URL so they know that I sent you. Welcome back for another episode of reality life with Kate Casey. Now today's episode is about Jeffrey Epstein and Gileen Maxwell. It's a story that I have previously covered. This episode contains discussion of sexual abuse, sex trafficking and exploitation. Discussion or discretion is advised. We're coming back to this story with so many new updates. We are living in the middle of a story that I believe will be examined, dissected and turned into documentaries for decades to come. There are some stories that arrive and dominate headlines and then fade. And there are others that keep unfolding. They leave behind questions that historians, journalists and filmmakers will continue to explore long after we've moved on to the next news cycle. The case of Jeffrey Epstein and Gileen Maxwell is one of those stories. As of early 2026, more than 3 million pages of documents have been released from what

5:15are commonly referred to as the Epstein files, including thousands of videos and images, court records, depositions, flight logs and investigative materials. The Department of Justice says acknowledged that roughly 6 million pages could potentially qualify for release. But they've also said that they declared that the latest release is to be the final one. And yet, even with millions of pages made public, this story feels unfinished. Jeffrey Epstein was a financier with extraordinary access to influential circles in politics, academia, business and royalty. Prosecutors alleged that behind that image was a long-running sex trafficking operation involving underage girls. After a controversial plea deal in 2008, he was arrested again in 2019 on federal charges. He died in jail while awaiting trial. Gileen Maxwell, a British socialite and the daughter of Media Magnet Robert Maxwell,

6:16was later convicted of helping recruit and groom minors for Epstein and is now serving a 20-year prison sentence. But beyond the court outcomes, there remains a larger record, millions of pages that document relationships, movements, testimony and timelines. It's a story about people, power, access and accountability, and it continues to evolve. In this episode, I interview my friend Barbara Scheer, who happens to be one of the first documentarians covering the story of Jeffrey Epstein and Gileen Maxwell. She directed Epstein Shadow, Gileen Maxwell, served as executive producer on Prince Andrew banished and is currently developing a book project examining Gileen Maxwell's life and influence. I've asked Barbara to come back and talk about what it's like to cover a story that is still unfolding and how you begin to document something when you know history hasn't finished writing it yet. Here's my interview with Barbara. Barbara, we're back together.

7:20Yes, we are. It's great to see you. Great to see you too. I had to have you back to talk about healing and the pronunciation of her name changes all the time. So what is the correct pronunciation of her name? Yeah. No, you're right. I think I started my doc on that too. We started out with all these different pronunciations of Gileen Maxwell. I think it's Gileen. Okay. I think that's what her brother's call her that. So I'm going to, I always stuck with that. So you have made two documentaries about Epstein. And you're working on more projects in the future. Are you surprised that this story has been not only something that people have kind of had interest in years past, but that it continues to get even bigger and bigger? I am. There's no one more surprised. I did Epstein's shadow, Gileen Maxwell, back and I think that came out in 2021. I exact produced a banished, which was Epstein and Prince Andrew, right?

8:23And how he was banished from the, from the royal family at that point. Now it's just, now it's snowballed to a greater degree with both of those stories. And, and then with the Epstein files, obviously, I'm working on a book with my writing partner, Michael McKinley. I'm working on a documentary right now that I, that's probably going to come out, not come out. It'll come out this year, but I'm starting production in probably another month. And it's a subject matter I know a ton about. And I think it's because, I think it's hitting a nerve even more so now because it's gone from sort of, you know, a prudent interest in the subject matter to this has been a cover up. Right. Right. So there's a cover up aspect to it. And I did a JFK show, as you know, a JFK documentary a couple of years ago, which got a lot of interest. And it's, it feels the same way. It feels very similar to, I think it's turned into, from conspiracy to, there might be a real cover up here.

9:24Mm-hmm. Well, what is the first year that you started picking away at this story? Picking away at the story as far back as 2017. When you began that process, and in the years after, did you have push back from people, and did you ever feel like people started to cross boundaries, look into your life, make you feel unsafe? I didn't have anything, I'm in Toronto, right? I do feel there is a little bit of a removal, literally. I'm removed from a lot of that. But I, the push back was interesting. When I was pitching a documentary about Jeffrey Epstein back in 2017, 2018, before he was arrested, before he was really known. I was already diving into what I was looking at was Palm Beach, what happened at Palm Beach, and how he got a, you know, a handshake deal on that. And I was looking into that, and his connections to power, to get that handshake deal, to basically,

10:30you know, that was where all these victims were ignored. And I was talking to the head of, you know, Mike Ryder, and I was talking to Joe Reckery, who is now ceased and died before Epstein was arrested, but I have him, I have him on video, our discussion about Maxwell and Epstein that I did in 2017, 2018 with him. And this is before anybody was on to this, you know what I mean, except, and I think Julie K. Brown came out with it in 2018 or 2019, but I was working on that for a long time, because I knew there was a great story here, and nobody would buy it. I was pitching all the people I'd worked with. You know, the usual, all the buyers in Hollywood, all the networks, and they were saying, oh, no, and also, who is this guy? They didn't even know who he was. And one exact said to me, we'd have a better time at greenlighting this project if there was a murder involved, right? Like, because that would be, but because it's like about underage girls and pedophilia

11:32and this icky, icky kind of rich guy in Palm Beach, known one of it. And then he got arrested, and then he got, and that's when changed everything was his arrest. Did he ever get word of the project that you were working on? And did you ever hear from him or anyone in his circle? No, I didn't, and I was talking to a lot of the lawyers who were representing the victims at that point too, and they knew stuff, and I'd heard a few things that have since come out. Like, I knew that they'd talk to Trump back in 2006, or that he called Mike Ryder and stuff like that. Like, a lot of the stuff that people are seeing that they would go, oh my god, it's all feeling new and everything, because maybe it's a new generation too that's looking at this. But that stuff was really well, not well-known. They wasn't well-known, but it was known. It wasn't. I knew about that because I was talking to the cops myself and a lot of the lawyers. So Brad Edwards, I was talking to, and Spencer Coven and all those guys.

12:33But no, I never, I didn't get shut down. I got shut down more by the networks than the buyers who said, I don't know this guy. So I'm like, okay, I abandoned the project myself because I couldn't get a green light on it. So that's how why I did it. So I shelved it. And then when he was, when Epstein was arrested in July 2019, it was my writing partner. It was also producer on the first talk. Michael McKinley-Phones, he's like, remember you were working on that guy and you were trying to, he's like, and now he's like on the front page of every newspaper, he's like, why don't you work on, you know, and I'm like, yeah, but it's too late now. Like it's too late now. Netflix is on it. Everybody's going to be on the guy. So we were talking. It's like, why don't I just pivot and look at Maxwell because she's way more interesting. The Bonnie was way more interesting than Clyde in this particular story. And that's how it came about. So as you begin to look into her life, there's this looming shadow of her father.

13:39So how did growing up with Robert Maxwell as the daughter of Robert Maxwell shaped her worldview? I think it shaped it in every which way. I think her self-esteem was completely tied to her father and what he had achieved and what that granted her. I mean, she was born into an entitled environment. Her father though, built it from the ground up, he's self-made, he came from nothing. And she walked into a world of mansions and planes and yachts and getting into Oxford with her father's help. I mean, she's the OG NEPO baby, she really is. And she walked into, so she doesn't know a different world than what was provided to her as the last born child of the Maxwell's. And so she walked into this and took on, took it on very easily.

14:42What was the household like emotionally? Was it loving? Was it intimidating? Was it chaotic? It's actually, I think all of the above. I think what's interesting about her particular story is three days before she was born, her brother, the oldest brother in the Maxwell family, Michael Maxwell, was in a car accident and he was 15 years old and that put him into a coma. And he remained in that coma for six to seven years before they let him go. Now that black cloud over the family and the household which informed all the kids' lives and the parents, that's what she entered into. And it was so, so I think she was craving attention and craving emotional connection what she did not get from a grieving mother, no doubt, and a father who's absent a lot. And even to the point where I think what is most telling with Glein was she was at the age of three deemed anorexic, right, three, how's a three year old anorexic?

15:50And she turned her mother, this is well documented and she said to her mum, mummy, I exist. Right there that says this is a child that's starving for affection and starving for attention literally and emotionally. So that is how Maxwell was formed in a long ways. Refresh your space and make your homework better for you with Wayfair. From furniture and decor to organization solutions and outdoor essentials, Wayfair makes it easy to find exactly what fits your style and needs. Upgrade your space with quality pieces that work within your budget plus enjoy fast shipping and easy assembly options. Right now our home project is organization. I'm talking closet systems, storage solutions, garage organization. I just got some kitchen pantry pull out trade wars, woven baskets, and closet decorative

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18:52He died in scandal and financial ruin. To what degree do we know he was involved in cheating business? Was he involved in intelligence? What do we know? We know a lot now. There's been a lot documented. I've spoken to a lot of the individuals who did the real work on his background because when he died, it was a scandal of the highest order in England. But backing it up, I mean, this is a man who came from nothing. He built a billion dollar business with his company, which owned a bunch of newspapers, all right? And he, so it was an empire, he created this empire. And what happened was he was involved in intelligence for years with KGB, which is now the FSB with MI6 and with Israel intelligence. He was very well ingrained in Israel.

19:55And he was bankrupting. What came out after his mysterious death is the fact that he was bankrupting his company to the tune of six to seven hundred U.S. dollars, million dollars, sorry, six to seven hundred million U.S. dollars. And that was in 1991, all right? So that's massive. So before that though, he knew he was in trouble. He was bankrupting his pension fund, which had 32,000 members, okay? So before that happened, that was going to about to come out. What we know now is that information was about to come. So he was leveraging that information and as blackmail against Israelis and as blackmail against the UK saying, he's telling the MI6, I'll go to the Israelis and give them information about what you're doing over there, where your people are, what you're working on, right? He did the same thing with the Israeli intelligence.

20:57And then a few days later, he falls off his yacht named after his youngest daughter, that I don't think was a mistake. That wasn't an accident. He was killed because he was blackmailing much more powerful entities than himself. And then it became public knowledge that he had put his media company into two billion dollars in debt. And his sons were later arrested for this because of their roles in this conspiracy that he was involved in. And Kevin was the smarter one and he was very much involved in his dad's work. They were later acquitted, but the fact remains that because of this happening and him stealing the pension pension of 32,000 people, that family was demonized overnight. This was akin to the Murdoch family empire crashing overnight.

21:58It was that high up. They were that powerful of a family. They were in competition with the Murdochs, too, at that time, just to give you an idea of who this family was. So they were demonized, they were pariahs in English society, and they were shut out overnight like that. And that's when Galena escaped to New York, where she would be hauled as she at that point. 20s, in mid 20s, I think 26, something like that, 61, 91, oh, she was 30, sorry, she was 30. She was 61 and her dad died in 91. So she was 30 years old when she escaped to New York. So do you think that she was groomed early, I mean, not sexually, but psychologically, to seek powerful men? Yes. 100%. She was put it this way for all the reasons I just mentioned about how she grew up and what happened when she was brought into the family, you know, initially. And there was, she's not very close to her mother.

22:58She was very, very close to her father and she was her father's favorite. No question. I mean, he names his yacht after her, but she also worked with her father. She accompanied him everywhere. She did become the de facto wife to the father. The wife wasn't traveling with them. She wasn't going to meetings in New York and meeting heads of state and meeting magnets and moguls and bankers. It was Galena. Galena was the father's hostess, his companion, and she accompanied him everywhere. And so not only did she lose that person that considered her of that value and loved her in that way, because he was a tricky guy. I mean, he was really hard on her too, but she lost that figure in her life. And she lost the access, you know, the accompanying status that he bought, right?

23:59Now that changed in New York a bit, but so, and she didn't have a career. She didn't have a, she didn't work. She really was the hostess. She was a party girl. She was charming. She was great with men. She was overly sexual. So men loved her. She wasn't that close to women. She was good with women, but not, not great. She didn't have a lot of female friends and way more male friends, much more comfortable in the company of men. So yeah, when their father died and she escaped to New York where she was embraced as a British socialite, you know, who's connected and Oxford educated, you know, scratch the surface and she was a lousy student, but she was embraced. So she had that. That's what she had to offer, right? And that was her worth in those, in those circles and it worked for a while. So she was at that point looking for a rich husband.

24:59Well, how financially vulnerable was she after her father's death? And so when she's making her, you know, trying to make inroads in New York society, is she in a place where she's struggling financially or did she have some sort of nest egg even though her father had immense financial problems? Well, she is said, she's quoted as saying she came to the US with nothing, but it's been well documented that she did have an estate and that the Maxwell family probably hid money. And it was probably on the aisle of Jersey for that matter if you want to get into details. But there was probably some money hidden and might not have been huge, but it would have been enough for it to sustain her. It's not like she went to work, right? Like she'd, so she didn't have even have a vocation, let alone a career or a passion. So really it was about finding a rich daddy and found it.

26:02And she found exactly what she wanted. And her father knew Epstein, her father, she, I mean, again, she will say and it's in transcripts that I've read. She has said that they met when she moved to New York in 1991, 92 through a friend. That's how that's the party line, her narrative. But I've spoken to people pretty, very credible sources who have said no, no, no, they met in the late 80s in London, in her father's office, Epstein is known to be, has been was over in England at that time, working for Douglas Leece, who is an arms dealer and connected to intelligence. And he and Douglas Leece also worked with Adnan Shogi. So this and and Epstein was over there already do working with shady individuals, no doubt doing shady, shady things. And Maxwell would have been right in there too, because he was working with intelligence

27:03and very connected to anyone and everyone. And so it's thought that they met through the father, but she will say, no, it was New York. Well, at this point, you know, nothing that either of them probably said is true, can be perceived as the total truth. Not at all. It's what, right? It's always been what works. Do you see parallels between her father and Jeffrey Epstein in terms of personality and power dynamics? Oh, 100%. It's just uncanny. And even because I did so much research and read several books on the on the on the Maxwell's. And then there was nothing really when I was doing my research on Epstein, there was nothing written at that point until after he was arrested. But they're both self-made men, I'll just throw out the obvious. They're both self-made men. They're both grifters. They're both worked in shady, in shady ways with shady people.

28:03They are definitely the ambitious and status driven. And she would have aligned with that in every single way. And anything fraudulent or corrupt would be commonplace to Glenn Maxwell, because that's where a world in which she knew very well and saw how her father worked. And it became normal. It was normalized. A lot of things that most people wouldn't accept or are deemed unprincipled or immoral would have been normalized for Glenn Maxwell. So anything Epstein was up to would have been nothing. And if anything, I think it just, she got sucked in or not, I think it would have been normal and she didn't bat an eye. But I think her ambition really was whatever it takes to marry this guy. So was she financially dependent on him? Yeah. She was. And that's come out later too, that's come out later when she was arrested and during

29:05her trial where her money was coming from and most of it did come from Epstein. Did she have any businesses that were ancillary to this, any business ventures that were legitimate at all or was it literally like, here's your bank account and you have access to it and you can do what you want with it? Absolutely. That seems to be the case. I mean, she does talk about when she was interviewed one time I read, she's talked about starting, she started doing day trading in the 2000s and she said I was quite successful at it. But when we looked at her financials during the trial, which was exposed to how much, she's putting up for bail or, you know, and or bond, I should say, but it didn't, nothing, nothing of significance came out of her day trading, but it that way. And there are no other businesses. Later she wanted, she, the best thing she could do because again, she didn't have any interest really in founding her own business or doing anything on her own or creating a

30:06career for herself. She did start Terramar, which was a bit of a joke. It's a, you know, a passport to the oceans, it's about philanthropy and it, again, it would put her in circles that she wanted to be in and give her some sort of credibility that she was hoping for after her days with, with Epstein, but no, she did not work. So in practical terms, what role did she play as far as daily life? Well, she would say, she was his house, she's called herself her house manager when she's been asked by lawyers in various different depositions. She said, I was this house manager, the victims and survivors that I spoke to in the course of the several years working on these shows would say she was sort of a second in command, an executive assistant, that kind of thing. So these monarchers are kind of nothing, bottom line is she, she was, she had an interesting

31:06role in his life and this is how I would say. So those are the basic roles that she was getting paid for, but she started out dating him. They did date. They did, she were, they were boyfriend and girlfriend. She did want to marry him. I think she loved him, I don't, I don't hate that man's capable of loving anyone. It's all about, you know, utility, but I think she wanted to marry him and then she became, it became very clear that he was never going to marry her or maybe anyone and, you know, and then she was fine with being okay, I'll just be a house, you know, I'll do, I'll do the job I've been doing all along. I'll accept the fact he's never going to marry me and have all these women around because I'm making great money, you know, and I have proxies, power vis-a-vis Edstein and his connections. And so that went along for a while, that satisfied her, I should say for a while, and then she ended up hating him.

32:07She really did hating him. I think he was psychologically abusive as well, again, like her father, he could be as well, but so I think it really did, there was an evolution there though, for sure. Well, I wondered too, would he make her sleep with other men too? I think, and women, actually, women was really more, he would, I think she was satisfying his every whim in the case, whatever it took, if it took being grooming young women, young girls in the 90s, absolutely, she did that, would, if it took sleeping with them, absolutely. I think this is a woman who would twist herself into anything that would work in order to get what she wants. And Epstein was very much the same thing. He would morph himself into any, he'd see an advantage or something he needed, like from Les Wexner or whatever, whatever, you know, and he would turn into whatever that person

33:12needed in order to gain favor and insert himself into people's lives. I think she was very similar in that respect, where she would do anything that he needed or wanted, in the hopes that A, he'd marry her or B, later take care of her for life with millions of, you know, of dollars or ideally, she'd meet someone through him where she could then move into that relationship, which I think is what happened with Ted Wyatt later on and probably others. But I think she was sleeping with a bunch of guys. So for outsiders, would they have seen them perceive them as equals, as a couple or business partners? What do we think now or what do you think now of the, how others perceive them even within that orbit? Within that orbit, at the time, she would have been seen as a partner, a girlfriend maybe

34:16early in the days, but as the years went on, because she was with him from, you know, decades, I think she would have been seen as a partner, absolutely, a lot of them thought they were together, right, initially. And then later on, never a business partner, but I think I would say best friends, partners, that sort of thing. She did give him a gloss of legitimacy, you know, with her connections to British royalty and her and heads of state, everybody that came through her father, right, that she had connections to, she would open her book for Epstein and then he did, like it really, he did get a lot of connections from her and he did get a lot of social agency through her, you know, look good. He looked good with her next to him, right, he was more legitimate too. He didn't look like, you know, the perverted uncle, when, when she's standing next to him,

35:19she did give him legitimacy and he would have absolutely been aware of that. So she was essentially a utility 100% and I think everyone in Epstein's orbit was, she's no different than anyone. Also wonder for someone like her, that sort of, you know, the person that gets into someone like Epstein's orbit, once you see, you know, one or two or three bad things, now are you scared that if it comes out that your scene is complicit, so you almost like throw your hands up in the air like I may as well dive deep in because there's no way for me to get out of this. Yeah. I bet you're right. Oh, I mean, we have no way of knowing that except that she did start to move away from him and date openly date other men after his Palm Beach arrest and the charges in Palm Beach.

36:19But she's still connected to the guy, she's still, she left him for a year and then went back. We know that like to be his house manager, you know, is filling a lot of money involved is what happened. But I think, I think you're right though, once you're so deeply involved, you probably don't see how to get out of it or you're not inclined to, like maybe we're giving her too much credit here, maybe she wasn't inclined to either, you know, maybe she's just as dark and dirty as he is, who knows, right? But I do think she was trying to make a life for herself separate from him when she saw there was never going to be one with him and it was going to be a dead end, you know, it was absolutely more like a dead end except for the money. She was made, but at that point, she'd been with him for decades and she made her own connections. But like what we do know, so she sort of was, she was dating Ted Wyatt, billionaire co-founder of Gateway Computers from roughly between 2007 to 2010 and Epstein was charged in 2006

37:21to give you an idea. So she was, you know, moving away from him and dating Ted openly. She did, like I said, did go back to Epstein work for them for a year after that. But I think she did try to actively move away from him into the arms of yet another rich guy. Right. Again, she's got no real money of her own or way to make it or any desire to really make her own money, you know. But what was interesting when Virginia Jufre, there was an incillery case against Maxwell after Virginia Jufre came out against Edstein and Maxwell and started reporting, you know, what happened to her in like 2015 or 2014 in the Daily Mail initially. That Maxwell came out and called Jufre a liar when Jufre was, you know, putting her story out there. And so Jufre sued her for defamation in 2015.

38:25Now they settled out of court in 2017. But the reason I bring that up is even from 2015, 2017, it was Epstein that was paying the legal fees of Galein Maxwell through that case. So she's moving away from him, she's maybe dating someone else, but for a little while. And then she, but it's, she's still very, very much connected to Epstein as well because she's still paying the bills or the court. How long in the files is she emailing with him or with others? Is it up until 2017, 2018? Yeah, I think it was up to 2018 at least that I've seen there's files that we haven't, right? I mean, that's a whole other story as we know, but that talk about a cover up, but that have not been released and may never see the light of day, but I've seen something between her and Epstein, I think 2018 was the last I saw.

39:27Were you surprised as the files were released? Was there any new information that you were unfamiliar with or did it feel like these were things that you could see, but no one was willing to acknowledge? A bit of both, really. I think, I think a lot of the stuff I've read or heard about, I, we knew about this stuff way back, whether you're talking to people, whether it was rumors, et cetera, what the files have done is just sort of solidify some of the things that we thought were theories or rumors, you know, but everyone knew about Bill Gates, everyone knew about the Russian girl he was dating who played chess, you know what I mean, like little things. I'm just like, like all these details that seem so new to everyone, a lot of them were stuff that was already out there in plain sight. It's just that so few of us were really, so few people, like unless you're doing a documentary or a big, you know, in depth, he's on them.

40:28You wouldn't know about that, right? But Julie would, Julie K. Brownwood or, you know, there's a few others that have really done some great work. A lot of the stuff isn't brand spanking new. That's for sure. But some of the stuff like the properties and the missing girls and the cannibalism was the stuff that you had heard about even years before. Not the cannibal, I don't believe the cannibalism either. I think there's so much crap out there that I don't really give any credence to at all. And what I do think, but I wonder if it's probably in the files we'll never see. I do wonder if maybe there were dead bodies, like I just, I wasn't hearing anything about girls being buried, you know, in New Mexico on his ranch or, you know what I mean, I'm here. I'm looking at that stuff now. I wouldn't completely discount people being killed. I really wouldn't, in this huge cover up, where they were threatened in any way, you

41:32know, or mistakes happened at the party. You know, that kind of stuff. I've heard different things were, okay, that's a shame, but we better cover this up. So when you look back at the research that you've done, I think a lot of people would ask the question of why wouldn't she just walk away? What do you think having been so deep into this research? Yeah, I wonder, I wonder, I think she tried probably, I think she regrets not having done. I know she has said she's been documented as saying I regret ever having met him. I think she probably genuinely does because it, you know, because she got found out, you know, you're always regretting to get found out. I do think probably even if that hadn't happened, she's, I think it didn't work out well with her and Epstein. And I think she probably resents him and why wouldn't she walk away is right? I think she, I think the money might have been a huge part of it.

42:36What am I going to do with my life? As she said, she's documented the saying, you know, I gave them the best years of my life. She met him, you know, what is, so it had to, you know, you know, you know, what is, so it had to, it would have been a really difficult. I think it really would have been difficult to move on and, and yet she did try, but it took decades. She did open up Terra Mara, which again, it was a preservation of the oceans, which is a complete joke, but, um, and she did marry that guy who 16 years younger, Scott Borgensen. But so I think she tried, but I think, um, you know, it caught up with her. Let's be honest, it all caught up with her. Now Virginia said that at one point they had said that they wanted her to have a child for them. Yeah. Is this the first that you had heard of something like that? Had they tried to have a child? Did they ask other women and what would have been the point of having a child? Hi, really? I think she wanted to have a child with Epstein, and I think they did try, um, to have a child together.

43:37I did read that in, in some of the files or, or something that intimated that. Um, I do, I remember Virginia saying that they wanted her to have their child, um, and then have, but they want to complete rights to it, right? They want to think that I believe I read her book as well, but I believe that, um, was the impetus for her leaving them and escaping and going to Thailand where she went to learn the massage to the massage school that they brought. That was as soon as she discovered that they wanted her to have a child, but have complete rights to the child, like she would never see the child again, kind of think that was the impetus for her to escape them, um, but I, uh, according to her book, according to what she said in her book, um, so that I do think, now, to what end I'm not sure, and I bet you it's pretty, pretty horrible, you know, I just, I wonder, I wonder, maybe he wanted

44:37a child to give all his money to, um, I really don't know, but I, I wonder if that's even more horrific reasons behind that, you know, it's really difficult to know what exactly anyone means in an email to, to, and, and don't get me wrong, I'm not covered, like, you know, anyway, um, you know, standing up for this guy, but I, I do, I think we are, people just take it so to the extreme that it loses any of its weight, and I think we have to really be careful of so many things that are coming out in these files, even though I think they're all, a lot of it is heinous, and I think a lot of men were heinous and did horrible things, and we don't even know the beginning of it, don't get me wrong, I, I absolutely believe that, but I, I wonder, I, you know, I have to take the, it's just tough to sort of dissect every single email without a total understanding of, you know, any sort of context. Yeah. Well, I think the big looming question too is that there have been photos that have been

45:40released of her in prison, and a lot of people speculate that's actually not her. What do you think? I think it's her. I absolutely think of, sir, I think she's gained a lot of weight. I think she's been beaten down by this whole process, and I think she just looks rough, you know, and I, but I absolutely think it's her. Sounds like her. I just think she's just getting older and she's gained quite a bit of weight, but I do think, listen, she wouldn't be making a big deal about wanting to be pardoned and get a hell out of jail with all the leverage she has on so many people. If she was off somewhere in France or Israel right now hiding out with a dupe in the prison, like, the story would die pretty much on the vine if that was the case, right? You'd want to want people to forget about you, and right now, that's not the case. So absolutely, it is her, that's a, again, I, I, I, we have to be so careful about how

46:45certain things are being twisted, and I'm really big on that because I, I, the work I've done has been really close to the bone, first person accounts, you know what I mean? Regarously researched, and I, I just don't go with the tinfoil hat stuff. I mean, and it's really easy to, in this case, don't give me wrong, it's very easy. But no, that's her, absolutely, it's her. So again, you are working on even more projects now, and when can we look forward to watching the documentary and the, and read the book? I'm hoping it'll be early this year, sorry, sorry, later this year, early next is when everything is going to probably hit. Okay. Well, I'm so grateful for your time. Where can people follow you? I'm on Instagram as Barbara J. Sheer, and that's probably the best place. And where can people watch the other documentaries? The banished and abstained shadow are on peacock or writing on peacock now, or could they continue to, and yeah, I'm all around, but those are the two abstained related documentaries

47:46are on peacock. And I think I've also seen them on Apple TV too. Oh, are they great? Yeah. You know what? As soon as they're done and in the can, I never watched them again, so that's, no, I hope they're out there anyway. Yeah. Well, thank you so much. Thank you, Kate. Great to see you. Thanks for giving me the YouTube. Take care. I want to thank my great guest, Barbara, and remind you to make sure that you click subscribe. Please leave a five star review, join the Facebook group reality life with Kate Casey. You can get my list of what to watch each week in unscripted TV. So not only documentaries, but also reality shows. And you can get that at CapeCasey.substac.com, and you can get my archive list as well. I also have plenty of articles and book club options for you to check out their CapeCasey.substac.com. Bonus episodes are available on Apple Podcast and on Patreon. And please follow me on social media.

48:46My Instagram is at KCCA, TikTok, it's Kate Casey, and Twitter, Threads, and Blue Sky at at KCC. Did you know that parents rank teaching financial literacy as the toughest life skill? That's where Greenlight comes in. The debit card and money app made for families. With Greenlight, you can send money to kids quickly. Set up chores, automate allowance, and track spending with real-time notifications. Kids learn how to earn, save, and spend responsibly. While parents have peace of mind knowing smart money habits are being built with guardrails in place. Try Greenlight, risk free today at greenlight.com slash try greenlight. Ask greenlight.com slash try green light.