Ep 13 - Capturing The Moment

0:00Welcome to Defining Design Podcast. You're listening to episode 13 and I have Teresa Gellan back with me today. Teresa is a teacher by day here in Ohio, but she's also been a photographer since 2012 and owns her own business, Teresa Charlene Photography. And she specializes in senior pictures, which I guess kind of goes with being a teacher. I met Teresa more than a decade ago. I was realizing this. And she was a camp counselor for me. We very nicely called her mother hen was how I knew her, but fast-forward for five years and I had her as one of my teachers, dare I say my favorite in high school. She was my finance teacher, but she was obviously always around. So Teresa, it's been a while. Thank you for coming on the podcast. Talk to me about all things photography. To start us off, what was the first interest in photography?

1:03What was something that like did something happen that made you think about it? Yeah, I think my sister and I growing up were just always into photos. So we were always the ones taking the photos at family gatherings. And then when friends would come over to my house, I was always the one with the camera out. And then I think I enjoyed taking the photos, but more than that, we like looking at the photos later. This was before digital cameras and smart phones and all that. And you had to actually develop the photos. And I just feel like it really, always just like looking back on the moments. So capturing the moment and then being able to look back at it, whether it was you. Did you have like play cameras or anything? Like how small were you when you were talking or like the polar disposable one clickers? Yes, well, actually there was a shadow photo of it. It was called a 110 and that was before like even the 35 millimeter. So that was just a type of film that you put in this little camera.

2:03So yeah, I had more or less like a toy camera. Again, nothing was digital back then. So you literally clicked and it would, you know, I don't know the science behind it and print on the film. Then you had to go get the film developed. So that was before I could even drive my mom. I would save up my money and my mom would take me to always go to Meyer to get our film developed. That was unfortunately. So, and I did evolve from there. I always love taking photos kind of I guess capturing the moment is what's really important to me. And obviously that's been made a lot easier now with digital, you know, you can capture every moment. You got every single one of you probably on your phone. But at some point I just started thinking I've always been sort of entrepreneurial too. I had a lemonade stand growing up. I was in the babysitter. I started a babysitter's club got a newspaper out. I always like kind of working for myself versus like employers. I do like teaching. But so I guess at some point the two just kind of melded together. I wanted to have something on my own where I could create my own work and art and hours

3:06and prices and website all that. And I it was just a matter of finding something I was passionate about. So photography stock. I got my first digital. It's a DSLR. So it's a single lens reflex. I think I don't even know what that stands for, but my camera is what I call it. As you mentioned, probably it might have been 2011 might have been when I got the camera. And then I started actually charging for it in around 2012. Where did you start like who were you taking photos of in 2012? Was it always senior pictures or were you are my first client or I guess not client subject was my nephew. So my sister, my sister had a baby before I did and my nephew, we had actually looked into the cost of newborn photos and we were just like for the price of newborn photos. We bought a camera. So we bought a camera together. We got a black Friday specials like $700 for the camera, the kit lens, the card.

4:09And we literally are self-taught. So I mean, I've taken some workshops over the years and a couple of photography classes, but we're mostly self-taught. So we started practicing on my nephew. Then we did a family friend. We did his senior photos for $50,50. On my students at Dublin, Toyota back then, just for free, like just shooting and I did a lot for free the first couple of years. Just learning the camera, learning light, learning just everything. My sister and I both did end up doing an internship with the company, so that helped a lot. Then we started off with weddings, actually. So our first reals. That's huge. That's like the feeling you went from caliber of taking moments and then here's the biggest moment of your life. Exactly. And it was, I don't not shoot weddings anymore because it was too stressful for me to be honest. Really? We did it for a long time. Our first wedding client, we only charged $200.

5:10That was for two photographers and we had to rent equipment. So I think we netted maybe like the box or something. But they knew. We had both, so through our internships, my sister and I had both done some like second shooting and we practiced a lot. But this was our first official wedding and the client knew that they had actually been looking for like a student in college that was just looking to get some experience. They didn't want to spend the money. So it was a good match. And then from there, we learned quickly of $200 was not enough. I think our next wedding we charged $500 and then up from there. So I think when we quit ultimately doing weddings, we were charging about $2,200. So who is, you know, that sounds more, that sounds more accurate. So $200 would be fantastic. You get what you pay for. I would like to look at this. You're probably not the best. But yeah, so then we shot weddings for years. I did, I did families probably the most.

6:10So I've done families off and on since the beginning. Then with my son who was born in 2013, I started really getting more into newborns. And I look back at his newborn photos or like a Pinterest fail. They're really, you're going to do the background drops and stuff. But try and get them all nestled in the. We shoved him into this little like in-term blanket outfit thing. Oh, they're so good. And my daughter was born in 2016 and her newborn photos are excellent. So my sister and I went together. Yeah, so we said newborns for a long time. And I say we, so her and I were part business partners for several years. We kind of learned together, grew our business together. We were originally Lena B. photography, which was kind of a combination of our middle and maiden names. And we shared equipment weddings. We always did together because it was too nerve-wracking to do a lot too. Oh, you have to. And then newborns, we generally did together.

7:10Usually like one of us would be more the photographer and the other one would be kind of like the baby handler, like a student. Like the baby happy. Yeah, exactly. And we went to studio for a year and a half, so we were mostly on site. So we would literally go into people's homes and move all their furniture around to do their newborn photos. So that's something I've never really thought about because yeah, so we've had obviously we've been married, we've had wedding photos, we had newborn photos, we've had family photos. It is always on site, which I imagine has to be maybe one of the more challenging aspects of being a photographer. You don't know what you're walking into. You never know the light, the space. We would literally we joke like we would come in and just rearrange people's houses, especially like we've usually used one main room for more of like the sleepy pose baby photos. Yeah. And most people we we branded ourselves as lifestyle photographers. So it was mostly natural kind of photojournalistic. Yeah. So capturing the moment we want the moment, not necessarily the posed perfect photo. We called it the moments in between.

8:12So kind of like that shot when you're, you know, you're taking a picture of the newborn, but the little sibling is sitting there watching and you snap a quick photo of that or the mom to get the baby to stop crying or, you know, the wedding, the bride when she thinks you're not looking. So I feel like the first probably 10 years, we were much more just lifestyle catching the moments in between. And then COVID really is what killed our newborn photography. Okay. Yeah. Well, we're good reason. Right. Yeah. Kind of the world shut down. And then me, well, my husband's also teacher. So between myself, my husband and my two kids were in four different buildings. So when we came out of quarantine and went back to the world, people were still very leery of germs, you know, and being around their newborn was just not a safe option for a while. Yeah. So that's kind of when I faced out of that. So around 2000, like 2021, I just sort of slowly used out of newborns. And then at some point, my senior photography business just exploded.

9:15I went from doing like maybe three or five a year. To now I do like, I mean, I don't do a ton compared to someone who's doing it full time, but I do about probably 30 to 35 seniors a year. So keeps me busy. No, I feel like more than two a month. Yeah. I can even do anything more than twice a month. Yeah. Michael was going to be, or my cutoff was going to be 50. And once I even hit like 30, maybe 34 last year, I was like, I'm just too busy, you know, because I, and I have two kids that are in travel sports and the kids kind of overwhelming. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I've just mostly been doing seniors for the last two years. Do you think that being a teacher makes you more invested in doing senior photos or do you kind of separate business and your day job in a sense? I think they definitely are a good match. Now, the tricky thing is I, I am not ethically allowed to profit off my students. Okay. So I, what I tell them is I can't do their photos during the school year. So if they're in my class, I cannot do their photos.

10:16Now, I do use it for prizes, which has been kind of a fun thing. I do a couple of challenges throughout the year. And if they quote unquote win, then I give, I give them a little free mini session. But my seniors that are on my roster. I can only do their photos like in the summer prior to senior year. So it's the only kind of hiccup. But yeah, it's been a great blend. I feel like I get to know the kids. So a lot of them, I'm not working with strangers anymore. It's somebody most like, I mean, I certainly shoot seniors around Columbus, but a good amount of them are from like my school district or my area or family friends that I know that. So it's, that's nice. I like working more with people I know. Sometimes it's just more natural. Sure. Kind of know their personality or gauge that too, so that you're able, like you said, if you're capturing a moment, if the moment's not authentic to that person, it's going to look really awkward. Age to yes. Yeah, awkward. And then I don't know. I feel like it helps me a little bit with just the marketing side of things too, because

11:19I know the teenagers more. I might, you know, I know their style more. The music that they do or don't like when I'm making Instagram reels and I don't know. I feel like, yeah, for sure, being in a high school setting helps me with my business doesn't necessarily help me get business, but it helps me learn the business and learn teenagers. Do you? Okay. So I'm just curious because when I was doing senior photos, it's still, you had to like, you had to have the one that would go in the yearbook photo always and forever. You had the nice little background, blah, blah, blah. And there were these ones that you tried to do, but I kind of felt like it was still like a little bit staged. I mean, you want them to look good. There wasn't anything, but they're, I look back at them and I'm like, man, did I just like pose the heck out of that and had no, no necessary, like, that's not really neat. If you go further back, like you look at our parents, senior photos were not really, I want to say not really a thing, like there was still a capture, but they were usually

12:20the very citted. Yeah. How do you think that senior photos then specific to that, and I guess you could say the same for family photos. They used to be like, JC Penney family photos is all I remember. But they've swung toward that lifestyle exactly the niche that you're in. How do you think that has changed or is it changing again? Yeah. I mean, I definitely always try to get a couple traditional portraits. So I think parents like those, grandparents like those. We call it the grandma pose. Look at the camera. It's a real smile. I mean, that's what my mother and all loves, those pictures she likes when you're staged perfectly. But yeah, I think, I don't, I don't know if it's a trend for me, again, at those moments. I actually hated senior photography in the beginning because it did feel staged, right? Like, if I'm doing a wedding or I'm doing a family, I can capture the moments. The people interacting with each other with seniors. It's like they just stand there and look at the camera and they're like, what do I do?

13:22Yes. You know, very staged, very posed and stuffy. So it took me a while. It really took me getting, I had one senior. I had literally almost just quit and like, I'm done with seniors and I had a senior and she's like, Ms. Chewy, please do my, you know, photos. I'm like, no, I don't do senior photos anymore. She begged me. And I said, all right, I did it for free. I said, I'll do it and I'll, and I'll show you why I don't like it. And it was, I feel like you so you were doing it to disprove her. I love, yeah. And it was like this light bulb moment or I say like a god thing. Like, I feel like she was really good at being natural. She moved around, walked. She smiled, she laughed, she looked off camera. Like she just literally moved around and that was like my aha moment. And that kind of is like bringing that lifestyle and capturing those moments, like into the process. So I do, I mean, like you said, some, they are a little bit stage sometimes because I'll be like, walk from here to there.

14:23You know, so I'm still giving, that I call them prompts. So I'm still giving them some actions to do, or I might tell them, I don't have any jokes, but I might like try to see if I'm funny, be there, you laugh. Yeah, it worked out for a while. Yeah, so I feel like that, that is what changed it for me. It was at one student, her name was Sierra, by the way. And just realizing that if they just move, you just need movement. And so now I tell my seniors, like if you watch a photo shoot with a model, the model never stops moving. They're constantly shifting hips, changing direction, playing with hair, looking off camera. And so the more you move around, the more natural it feels, the more variety you get within the each set of photo. Yeah. And that's when you get the natural genuine smiles too. That's true. I think I see a lot of, I mean, not that I'm a good photographer, but and it means in order to like pick up a camera nearly at all except my phone. But I feel like I have seen a lot of the behind the scenes where they make these,

15:26like they're like overly goofy, or like overly expressive, but they turn out to be good photos. It just makes me look like, is that real? They're extra smiley or extra whatever. And I guess that is maybe the benefit of having expression. And I mean, I don't know if there's a correlation with this. But in theater, you know, you're presenting to an audience who's further away. Obviously your camera is not that audience. But the same idea, like your expressiveness has to kind of come out in very major ways to get a point across. Right. But it's just funny that it's that's photography too, I guess. Yeah. Well, and that's why it, you know, I don't have to know the client, but it often is helpful if I do know them or know their mom or the parent or comes because you get more of that natural conversation. And then a lot of times, like I'll just be talking to them about, you know, what are your plans for next year, whatever. And then I'll just like turn and snap.

16:27And then they giggle or, you know, that was awkward and they laugh. And then I'll snap again. And so, I mean, you can do that with a stranger that's a little bit extroverted, but sometimes the client that I don't know, their little shy, it is, I have to work a little bit more to get those natural photos out of them. I mean, they'll stand there and smile, but to get them to remove and laugh. And genuinely have a good time. I have to work a little harder with the coming, I mean, they're teenagers that you're working with with teenagers. Do you feel like they are more comfortable with a family member with them that can, or even like, do you ever do sibling sessions where you kind of see the relationship between them might help? Yeah, nine out of 10 times, I'd say mom comes and it's a good experience. I haven't had any. I had one mom a few years back where I think she was a little overbearing and the student, the senior, she just seemed a little bit more. She wasn't as relaxed. She was mirrored.

17:28Well, her mom was kind of pelling her how to stand and what to do and don't smile like that and that kind of thing. And then once I got her away from her mom for a little bit, it was so much more natural. Like it was just like, it was almost like she could relax. But that's really one scenario I've had. I would say most of the time mom comes and we all literally laugh together. And I always check a photo of like the two of them. Sometimes mom doesn't want to be in the camera. You know, I didn't come prepared. I kind of forced them to take at least one photo. And it's back to that moment thing. Like this is your photos. You know, and a lot of times it's their first born or their last born. And like this is a moment that you want to remember. So I always try to make them hop in at least one picture, same. I mean, I'll do one like traditional look at me. And then I'll say, okay, no hug mom or look at each other. And then it's, you know, sometimes awkward. They might laugh or whatever. And then I usually just, I will try to throw that photo or that set of photos in with their selection.

18:31So I'll like for sure, color a black and white. And I just throw them in there and I don't make them choose that as like one of their favorites. Yeah. I think that's smart. I don't, I think I agree with you with it. If I'm capturing a moment, even if you're not necessarily supposed to be a part of that, it's still a, you're seeing something as like a behind the scenes. And those are the candid photos that you, you as someone who probably like as a mom, you know, it's not like you get a ton of photos where you're just with your kids. Right. Candidly. Right. Yeah. And she asked about the sibling. Sometimes, I would say, again, nine out of 10 times, it's just mom. I've had dad, I've had siblings come. So that's more rare. I don't know if it's like a rate of passage. It's like month's going, but it's generally just mom, I would say, yeah, I've had some other family situations. Sure. So behind the lens, so you're in the moment, you are the photographer, you're capturing things. Are there things that you specifically like while you're literally clicking these frames,

19:32you're looking through the lens, are there things that you try and artfully create, whether it be the way you're framing or like you, you've already mentioned light a couple times. The space or the environment, like what are things that like you like with every click, you're making sure X, Y, Z is happening. Well, light is essential to photography. I mean, it really have a photo without sunlight, but that is definitely sort of my brand is backlit golden hour at sunset. I mean, that's, if I could only shoot backlit golden hour, that's what I would shoot. Unfortunately, we live in Ohio near the sun. And so I have clouds. Clouds gray, clouds gray, clouds gray, you primarily shoot in the summer and fall. So that helps your sense or sunshine then, but yeah, so yeah, I think that's definitely an art.

20:33It took me a lot of time to learn. It's funny when I was younger, you're taught to have the sun behind the camera. And so now I literally shoot into the sun. So it's kind of the opposite of how I was taught and it does create kind of this art full hazy look. One thing I've had to teach myself though is to not do that 100% of the time. So I'm shooting backlit into the sun, maybe 50% of the time, because that's my low. I want that hazy golden warm glow, but to create a more well-rounded gallery, I do try and mix it up. So then I'll do some where I'm not shooting into the sun. And then kind of what you said earlier, I'll try to do some traditional portraits, but then get those candid lifestyle moments. I always forget. I tend to shoot vertically all the time because of Instagram now, so I have to mine myself to try to get some horizontally as well, you know, just to have, again, a more diverse gallery. Yeah. Yeah, I would say artfully that's probably my one kind of go to, I mean, that's my brand

21:38because backlit golden hour. I think, well, Jacob, as you know, my husband, he was in photography in high school and that he still to this day talks about golden hour, golden hour, golden hour, it's when you shoot things, it's golden hour, you know, if we're on vacation, it's the time, it's time right now to do it. And I used to be like, what in the world is he talking about? I mean, and then selfishly, I don't know if that's right word, maybe efficiently, it also saves me a lot of time in post process, like editing, because if I shoot mid-day, there's lots more shadows, there's a lot, the light, a lot more in even. So if I'm out in full sun versus in the shade, it's completely different editing. So when I shoot at goal-nower, I can, I mean, I do edit still, but it's much more like straight out of camera, my photos look way better. So it also saves me a ton of time editing. So I mean, I've, I try to only shoot at goal-nower one, because I like the look of that sun, the hazy, and it's golden, and, you know, the skin tones are much better, but it leaves

22:41me a lot of time editing. So it's kind of a double benefit. Yeah. What is the work process with editing? So post bringing them out of the camera, what do you use? And then do you, do you actually need to retouch a whole lot? Or do you try and, I don't know, save away from it? Yeah. I shoot Nikon, and I use Lightroom and Photoshop. So those are my three friends, and I use Apple products, but I'm sure you could do it on any platform, you know, any computer. But I would say that I, well, first I go home, I back up my media cards, so that I've got a backup copy of them, and then I import into Lightroom, and then probably my least favorite and most time consuming part, we call it calling, but it's narrowing down my, I'm an overshooter. I should. I would shoot away too. Click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, and I'll get home from a senior session and I'll sometimes have 700 photos, and so that you can fibre and your butt down, and it is very time consuming.

23:44Now, AI is evolving that process, so I think in the long run, I'll be able to say a lot of time I just haven't taken the time to learn that. But there are supposedly AI platforms where it'll make that a lot faster. Okay. So it helps you on the selection process, like best shots. Right, it'll help somehow some, you know, it's gonna help me. I have no idea how it works. But you're not, yeah, I preach it to the choir. AI is still like a foreign entity to me. It's the same. And then when I import them into Lightroom, I call them down to a reasonable gallery for me is around 200 photos give or take, which is still a lot for the clients to go through. But, and then I do what I call a soft edit on those. So I have presets that I've originally, I've purchased them, but then I've judged them over time and they're sort of like mine, look now. So I try not to be, I want to be natural. So I don't like them to look overly photoshopped

24:45or overly touched up. I do want them to have that sort of ethereal, golden hour organic natural look. But certainly my presets and my editing help, just even out skin tone, even out like white balance, uneven light, stuff like that. So I'll zip through that and then kind of have it down to a science about however long I was shooting, it's going to take me about twice that long to edit. So an hour shoot might take two, probably two hours minimum to edit. So the time in editing is definitely where I spend more of my time and I do not enjoy it and every year I say, this is the year I'm going to start outsourcing it. But I think I'm too much of a control freak. Because I mean photography is an art and how I edit is my brand. That is what, to me, that's what people are coming to me for. They see my Instagram, they like my look, they book me. And so to just hand that over to another company or to AI,

25:47I just haven't gotten there yet. Yeah, well that would also probably be a lot of, I mean I want to call it trust, but you do have to kind of trust the third party of whatever you're using, whether it be AI or another person, but what if they don't get, what you're envisioning? Right. That just becomes a snowball. Exactly. And I mean to some extent, it's, you know, it's cost money. So then like taking a little bit of my profit. So I just haven't gotten there. I say I'm going to literally every year because every fall, I mean I work 60 hour weeks in the fall and it's not really fun. I like the part of being with the client and that part, I do like the extra spending money that I basically give to my kids travel sports teams. But the editing is a lot. And I think one of your questions earlier was what is the challenge and not would just be the time. I think it's so time consuming to run a business and to run it well. So yeah, while doing, you know, your other 75% of the time,

26:48which is, you know, teaching and then you're also a mom. You're not, you're not stagnant. You, you move. Based on your kids, obviously schedules, but that would be where. Yes. Is there something that like, so you're kind of honed in what you're good at, what you like to do and that kind of thing? Is there something you wish you could try or go back to and try again? Yeah, so recently I have been getting into sports photography. Oh, that's interesting. Yes, so my son made a national soccer team this year and so just sort of to be nice and for fun, I rented it. I rented a big long camera lens last year for one of their tournaments and because I don't have, the lens that I would like to have is $3,000. And, you know, when I was shooting weddings and shoot, you know, I justified the cost of all this equipment because I was going to recoup it. Sure. But rocker mom, there's not any money in that. It's just kind of for fun.

27:49So I rented a lens. I took photos of all the players that weekend on my son and daughter's teams and I posted them online and I shared them with the families just, you know, for free. The people were like so thankful. I mean, every single parent came and said, thank you, thank you, thank you. And now, not my son, but some of these boys already have like Instagram accounts that are like creating, you know, highlight reels to get recruited someday and all this stuff. So they thanked me so much. They were so appreciative that I decided to do it again. And again, I ended up doing almost all their home games and carrying the photos. Now, I did not do it because of this, but they may or may not have gotten me a $250 Starbucks gift card. Very nice. Yeah. It's really, really nice. But I just, I really enjoy it. So I don't, I'm not very good at it. I'm still learning a lot about how big the field is and how, again, the equipment that I would need and might dabble in video, I'm upgrading my camera soon and I might dabble in like sports videography.

28:53Like just a little bit, maybe not a lot. But yeah, so I don't, I'm not to the point where I would want to do it for income because I have no interest in doing it for like other kids' teams or like people I don't know. But trust me right now, but yeah, doing it for both my sons and daughters soccer teams and just trying something different has been refreshing. So has that been a little, I mean, like you said, you're learning, but that's not the golden hour brand. That's very different then. That is so true and that has also been a challenge and that's why I feel like with the fast motion, I mean, weddings, probably the most motion I had was like the dancing in the reception. So that was tricky learning, you know, low light, a little bit of fast movement in a wedding. So I think that's what I like about it too. Just being a teacher, I'm a lifelong learner. I'm so big on like constantly, you know, pushing yourself to learn something new, try something different. I think it keeps it fresh. So yes, the full sun and also the fast movement

29:55and then also not having really the equipment that I really would like to have. Sure, yeah. A little bit challenging, but I kind of like it. I don't know, it's funny. It's back to like the newborn Pinterest fail thing. I like making these photos. And I will say another challenge is there's a term for it, where you kind of compare yourself to other people and you feel like maybe you're not good enough. There's like a term for that. I mean, yeah, comparison is even just a good term, but yeah, you just kind of self deprecate a little bit. Yeah, I'll think of it at some point, but that's been funny to me because I'll like, I mean, the photos are good, you know, they're just still images at this point because I haven't done the video yet. But I'll be like, oh, these are pretty good. And I share them with the parents and the parents are like, oh, thank you so much. And then I'll see like, I'd follow a few like sports photographers in my feed now, and I'll airs. And oh, it's an imposter syndrome. That's what it's called. Oh, yes, you don't feel like you're in the right place even though you're essentially doing the same thing the other ones are. Yeah. So then I'll see some that are like literally really good.

30:58It's pretty hard for me. And I'm like, oh, I have so far to go. Lots of learn is not to say that you couldn't do it. Then that's probably more on my radar. Sometime in the future, I've been with my seniors doing more like, I call it almost like editorial where it almost be like a fashion shoot for like a fashion magazine or a runway model or something like that. At some point in the future, I think would be fun too. But that would be more studio-based. So it would be much more of a controlled environment, not to say that. And I have to relearn studio lighting. Right now, I like having a break in the winter. So you know, hi, weather. I'm not shooting outside at a golden hour. I like having that break and that downtime. But I've thought in the future when I'm an empty nester and I'm bored and lonely in the winter. Yeah, fashion photography might be something fun to do. So keeping my options open. Sure. Well, you don't want to close any door

31:59because you feel creative and what other one area. When I think that that's a good word, like just being a creative, I think I like, and as I said earlier, kind of a lifelong learner, it keeps it fresh for me. I get bored really easily. And so it's like, you know, I get, I did quit weddings mostly because of the anxiousness. It's a lot of pressure to perform on that day and not mess anything up and not miss any moments. But also, I tend to like, okay, I conquered weddings, let's move on. Okay, I conquered newborns, let's move on. I kind of, I don't know, I just, I think it fits my personality. I like trying something different. Like honing in on it, getting good at it. And then, all right, it's time to try something new. So we'll see. We'll see. It's kind of the beauty of photography. Like there's always, no matter what realm you're in in photography, you can kind of move within the space. It's whether it's, whether you're family oriented or whether you're pet oriented. I mean, there's so many, like, there's always something to shoot with your camera.

33:00And then you're, it's more of a question of what's actually interesting you at that moment. Or maybe it's, maybe it's you're literally changing something like the sports photography. Sounds like, yes, it's obviously relevant with your kids, but it's like a weird challenge that you're trying to figure out how to then work with the new tools that you have. And that's what's making you excited about it too. Yeah, and I think one thing that I didn't realize about this job when I started, I honestly, I got into it for extra money. But I, and I still like the extra money, believe me. But I, such, I get such a, I appreciate so much when people like the gallery. So I, when someone emails me back and says, these are beautiful. Or thank you so much for capturing this moment. And I think that's what I'm liking about the soccer photos right now, is like, parents are just so genuinely appreciative. You know, I'm not getting paid for it. And I don't want paid for it. The Starbucks gift card was great, but unexpected appreciation.

34:00So just feeling like what you're doing matters, and that, you know, whether it's helping someone or just creating those memories for them, I think is what keeps me going, because it is time-consuming, it is challenging, but it's rewarding also. And that's kind of the same with teaching, not that you're asking, but. No, it's very true. Very stressful. And sometimes I want to quit. Well, if you were, if I were you, I'd want to quit every day. But it's like at the end of the day, I feel like if, you know, what I'm doing matters, and someone is appreciating it, and so that's kind of what keeps me going. That's fair. Do you, I don't know if I'm using the right term, but like, do you have a cohort or like a group of sorts that you can kind of take feedback and critique and whatnot that helps you further your photography, or is it more of an individualized? For me, it's more individualized at this point in my life. So I think in the beginning, the first gosh, seven years, I had my sister, she was a business partner,

35:02and we collaborated a lot, and we helped each other grow and learn, and we talked shop all the time. And then really with COVID, once the newborn, once we stopped doing newborns, we kind of started both went back to families and just kind of showed our own. So we still share ideas on occasion, but we mostly have our own separate businesses now. And I have a friend that's a photographer, so her and I will text each other if we have a question or a thought, and we've gotten together a couple times for coffee, like just literally to talk about photography. So I do miss that collaborative piece, but I'm just so busy, honestly, that it's break, I'm like in survival mode at this point in my life. I would, again, that's maybe another bucket list goal, maybe quarterly, you know, coffee shop meetups with whether it's one or a couple of photographer people, or even taking a class or an online workshop, because I do like learning, and I like having that kind of collaborative,

36:04you know, what would you, you know, what would you have done with this lighting situation or this lady wore this crazy bright outfit? How would you edit this? So I miss that, but I just don't have the time right now. So sure, I've had a few interns over the years. So yeah, I definitely like that part of sharing ideas. I just have to make time for it. Yeah, I mean, that's a pro and a con too. There's, it's a very individualized, I mean, you are physically the only one that can stand behind that camera lens. So it's not a collaborative environment when you're literally shooting. Closest you got is like you said, you were you and your sister together, but that can be a pro, maybe, that you can do it very by yourself, and you don't have to rely then on seven other schedules to get something through. It's you and you alone. But yeah, that comes with its loneliness too and time. Time, I always say, if I could just clone myself, everything would be fine. Oh, well, I don't know if I want a clone of me,

37:04but that would be good. There's too much, too much me in this world. No, I've probably, that's another, I said time earlier, but in the fall, that's the thing that I struggle with the most is I'm so busy. The first two things to get pushed down the priority list are my sleep and my exercise. And so neither of which are good things to, you know, not prioritize. So I have tried to learn over the last few years, I'm still not good at it. I feel like I've tried to have better work-life balance, but then also my kids are getting busier, so it's still not quite evening out. But trying to make that time for your own physical and mental health and not, you know, be working all the time is challenging. Because I like both my jobs. I like teaching and I like photography, so it's easy to get really wrapped up into them and just be working, working, working, working, working. But then, yeah, you have to play mom and sleep and eat healthy and run and all those things.

38:06So just the time balance. Sure. Do you see photography as something that could be a future you, like when you are, like, I know you joke that you when you're an empty nester and bored. But do you see photography as something that would continue into maybe, like, your years of when it's more about filling your time with your own stuff? Or do you think there's a, like, a phase out trend-wise where there's a point where, you know, it's not really needed of me anymore? Yeah, I'm, for now, I like doing them both. Even if I do it a little bit, as I've mentioned, for the extra money, I joke, I literally take my photography money and give it to my kids, sports clubs teams. It's just, like, in and out. And it's, like, our vacation money and our fun money. So I feel like we use it for, like, extra things we might not otherwise do. But to me, being a, so I teach marketing and entrepreneurship and business. And so I like having the small business

39:07as, like, my side hustle. I feel like it gives me, like, street credit with the kids. So I'm not changing out of a textbook. Like, I actually run a business. I've run this business successfully for 13, 14 years. So I don't see phasing out of it anytime soon. But I am trying to slowly cut back. And I tell my students too, I'm trying to work smarter, not harder. So every year, so I do raise my prices a little bit. And I figure, if I'm not booking as many sessions and clients, that's okay. Uh-huh. I can, I can afford financially to have more people say, no, thank you. But then I'm still, you know, shooting a little bit here and there and, um, yeah. Doing all the things, making extra money, getting some street credit with my students. I think being of, I sort of, like, a lifelong entrepreneur, I hope my own children see that you can take something you're passionate about and turn a hobby into a business to know to make money or just to have a creative outlet.

40:10So hopefully modeling that for my kids too. Well, 100%. That's one of the whole reasons why I enjoy talking to creatives and hobbyists because this isn't your first job. Like it's, this is something that like you, exactly what you said, that's like the opinion that I want you can turn something that you love into more if you want to. And that's part of being a part of a design world. I would argue photographers are designers. Yeah. You know, people probably assume they can't do that or can't make it when they can. You just obviously have to put the time in, which is a whole thing. From. I am curious. You are a marketing teacher. You were obviously your business finance with me too. So you know all aspects of running a business, but also how to market set business. Are there things with social media that influence how you market yours? We've kind of made a couple of mentions of it. Yeah, it's interesting to me because I graduated from the Ohio State University in 1997, which was way before social media. So we're really self-taught.

41:15I mean, Instagram is my primary marketing tool. I think, you know, I've found a few clients over time that were, Instagram would be my main method of advertising and marketing, but I also a word of mouth, sort of unfriendly. That's probably my other main. For sure. Referral, but yeah, I think just in general, social media is definitely, you know, you could do it for free. I don't really do paid ads, but I do talk about those with my students, but it's been the biggest asset to my business. Just being able to create the photos, you know, edit them and articulate exactly how I want the aesthetic of my Instagram to look. For my Facebook, I do have a website. I used to have a blog. I used to have Pinterest. So I've tried a lot of different things, but I would say the majority of my time is spent on Instagram and I really enjoy it. I like Instagram a lot. So, and that's where most of my students are.

42:17I mean, they have Snap and all these other weird things that I don't pick off, all these other things, but Instagram, they're still heavily using, and so are Moms. And I would say Moms and Poms are reaching out to me more than the senior, but Instagram has been a great platform for me to find people. And I don't do any paid advertising only because I don't have the capacity. If I weren't teaching and I didn't have kids and I had more time and really needed to scale my business, then I would look more paid forms of advertising, but just Instagram and word of mouth are my two biggest more tools. Yeah, I mean, that literally Instagram has meant for media sharing. So I don't know how you can't just like utilize it to, it's in degree because I mean, there's, you're scrolling and you want that thing that catches your eye. And obviously, if there's relevancy to a senior or whether it be a newborn or a wedding or whatever, because I remember being just bombarded when we were planning weddings.

43:17You just big brother knows, you're looking at weddings and all this stuff and then you get bombarded and I'm like, man, these are gorgeous dresses, gorgeous pictures, but it's because someone photographer was capturing that very thing that makes me then react, like this really have a reaction to that because it's a beautiful image, not because I saw that dress on a rack and thought, you know what I mean? Like, it's not the same, it's not the same, but the picture tells the story. For sure. And I, again, it's a blessing in a curse because of the time. I enjoy Instagram so much, but the time it takes for me to curate said photo and find the right music. I use a lot of music and I've taken some psychology classes over time and studied consumer behavior, which is all part of marketing. And I feel like I know what type of music to use and but then curating everything, the photo that if you use music, the caption, the hashtags, I mean, all that takes time.

44:18And then I also get sucked into Instagram then and I'm scrolling and looking at other photographers stuff and part of it's inspirational and I'm engaging with them, you know, to try to get like organic engagement back to my page, but sometimes back to the poster syndrome. I mean, sometimes I'm looking at it and I'm like, overwhelmed by how much beauty is out there and then you start to think, oh, my photos aren't as good as this person. So I have to put that aside sometimes and just try to stay in my lane and focus on what I, you know, photography again is such an art. Like 20 people could take a photo and make it look different. And so trying to stay true to my brand has sometimes hard over time. And in that changes, I used to edit like a lot differently. And that's actually another reason that my sister and I branched off a little bit as she was going a little bit like darker and moodier in post-medicine process. And I'm more like light bright airy, golden hour sun.

45:18And so, but yeah, curating your Instagram to look a certain way is fun, but also more time. Sure. You know, the thing that we have plentiful amounts of. Yeah, service is hard. It's like everything fine. And I know. Another thing that you could outsource, but I just don't want to. I'm like, I don't know. There are some things you want to hold close to the chest too, because that is truly you curating it, which I think is a little bit more important. I do the same thing with design. That's, I don't really want to go out and ask for AI to create something for me because this is something that's a little more personal and needs a little more curation. But well, my big question that I kind of ask everybody, but in your opinion with photography specifically, how is that, what's unique about photography in separating it from other design avenues or other hobbies or whatever? Why is photography what you drew to with its uniqueness?

46:21Mm-hmm. Oh, that's a good question. I always liked, you know, as I mentioned earlier, I liked photos, I liked freezing the moment. I do like video a lot and not something as I evolved. I made dabble into, but I'm not sure, you know? Other than liking photos and kind of like freezing that moment, I've messed around with everything throwing up, drawing, painting. Try to think of whatever. I thought it was gonna be a home into your designer at one point. I love that whatever side of your brain that is, all the creative stuff, but I think, yeah, I think photography for me, I like having, I mean, I have photos all over my house. I like looking at the photo and remembering the moment, you know, whether you're wedding day, you know, holding your first baby, bringing your puppy home, walking the beach on your honeymoon or, you know, whatever.

47:22I feel like other than, as we said, now I have 20,000 photos on my smartphone. You're freezing that moment in time that you can literally never get back. And so I like, just got chills saying that. It's just special to me. And I have had, like, I have had times where I've cried before because I'll have a client email me and say, I just wanted to let you know that my father-in-law passed away last weekend and the photo that you took was the last photo we have of him. Thank you so much for capturing that moment. Like, those are few and far between, but I have, I have moments like that were the client. Like, the photo they have means so much to them. And so, yeah, I just think there's something about photography where it just, it captures that moment in time and you have it forever. Yeah. The only emotion behind the photo too, you can see it, I think, is what I, at least when I start to think about different, obviously, there's different art forms of all the ones

48:24that you named, like drawing and painting and whatever, but something about the live quality of a photo, you can really see behind what's actually going on. But I guess in other words, you can almost see the picture, but not really know the story behind it might, you know, there's like this weird play with photography that it's live, but it's in a moment that you'll never get back in. I love that you said that. But there is kind of this dance a little bit of what's being captured. You kind of have to really, I don't know, I don't like it, it's a little promise. I know, it's really deep, but it's just different. It's different than reacting to like in my world, a built environment, you're reacting to a true human being in a photo. That's, I think, more emotional than anything to me. I think I sent it to you earlier. I don't even remember what it is, but my Instagram caption is, or my bio, sorry, using Golden Hour Magic to capture your authentic self

49:25because every senior has a story worth telling. So I think trying to get, and that's, you know, on my Instagram, I try to do that, but like telling kind of the story behind the person, whether I'm using their favorite Bible verse or their favorite song, or, you know, we're shooting in a location. I had a senior boy who he did half his, shoot at the soccer field because he spent a lot of time there and half his shoot at his favorite park where he goes fishing. So sometimes the location they choose has meaning. So yeah, I like to use that. Everything behind the camera and really within the person, there's just some element that I'm helping capture and freeze. And I just, I like that. And I like when they appreciate that too. Yeah, oh, tenfold. Yeah, that makes it all the worthwhile. Well, I just really appreciate you talking about all of it because I think that there's a little bit of like a, we said earlier, you know, you get a hobby, but you don't really know where to go or take with it.

50:27And I think you are a great case in point where it was always a hobby and you can take it into furthering and you've, you've got the, the way that you as a brand kind of handle it, but you're still capturing things for other people. You're, you're, and I'll be all as a client as a person. And I think that's what's great about any field of design. It's not really about the person behind the design or the person behind the camera for your instance, but that's just a very meaningful way to look at you as a photographer of what you're capable of doing. So it's just very interesting. I love talking about all things design. Well, thank you for having me. I appreciate you considering me a designer, because that makes sense. I think so. I think you, to capture a photographer, I can't do what you do. So yes, you're 100% a designer. Well, for, for those of you listening, it is, this has been episode 13. Please continue to listen to future episodes and we'll see you on the next one.