EMQs: From Beatlemania to... K-pop?

0:00There's one place for the newest drops in wellness and performance and the biggest sale of the year. It's the drop by GNC, curating the best of what's new, handpicked by the pros who know what works. And right now, get it all by one get one 50% off during the semi-annual live-well sale. From crushing workouts to leveling up to nutrition and everything in between, get the best deals on the latest innovations. All the newness is all on sale right now during the live-well sale on the drop by GNC. If you've used Babble, you would. Babble's conversation based technique teaches you useful words and phrases to get you speaking quickly about the things you actually talk about in the real world. With lessons handcrafted by the 200 language experts and voiced by real native speakers, Babble is like having a private tutor in your pocket. Start speaking with Babble today. Get up to 55% off your Babble subscription right now at babble.com slash a cast spelled B-A-B-B-E-L.com slash a cast. Rules and

1:07restrictions may apply. A password manager should be the first security purchase you make for your team. Why? Because compromised passwords are the number one way bad actors attack companies and small businesses are their favorite targets. But unlike a lot of security challenges, passwords actually have a pretty simple solution. One password lets you manage all your businesses credentials. So you can feel confident that your data stays secure as your company grows. Find out more at onepassword.com slash special offer and start securing every login. The Chancellor of the Exchequer. Getting a lesson from the Shadow Charles who had a balance of books is like getting a lesson from Dracula and had a look after a blood pack. A steady as she goes a budget. What kind of ship does he think he's on? The Titanic? They're married, Celeste. Welcome to EMQs from Political Carrensay with Ed Balls and George Osborne.

2:10Hello and welcome to EMQs and before we get into our questions let's start off with a bit of a sartorial question for George and this is prompted by this bizarre thing happening in America which is that Donald Trump has been buying and gifting the same dress shoes to his cabinet members. Apparently the brand is floor shine. $145 a pair. Trump pays for themselves. Signs the box with a message. He's bought them for JD Vans, Marco Rubio, Peter Heskith, Howard Lutnik, Sean Duffy, others. It became a bit of a joke because Marco Rubio was bought a pair. Apparently Trump guesses the correct size and he got Rubio's wrong by about three sizes. So Rubio is pictured wearing his massive pair of shoes. There was a photo of the whole cabinet all lined up wearing exactly the same shoes. What is it about these big intellects, JD Vans, Marco Rubio that they can't say to

3:12president. Actually I don't want your shoes all more importantly clean up by the right size. I just wanted have you ever had a similar problem with a political friend or colleague. In my case, Gordon Brown was always giving me red ties, wide and red and very nice of him. He didn't mandate I had to wear them to be fair but I've got quite a lot of red ties. I got a Hague baseball cap in its day was to have long memories for William Hague. Yes. Was that when you were out having 14 points? No, do you remember he got kind of lamp when he could do no right and Tony Blair could do no wrong. It was all connected with that. He went on a ride in Cornwall, I think it was. Anyway, somewhere in the west country wearing a baseball cap. It was supposed to demonstrate, you know, it was supposed to be like he's a younger generation than the Tory leaders have gone before but as you soon discover in politics when things aren't going right for you, everything is wrong and everything's a misstep. William Hague is a very nice man but I'm not sure he even at the age of 15 he was a younger

4:14generation. He always looked at about 15 going on 55. I came across some coverage on the internet last night of him awarding some honorary degrees in Oxford. That's the kind of thing that the algorithm throws to me. He was dressed in the most, he's the Chancellor of Oxford. I mean big kind of in brackets. Can you imagine a Peter Madison in one contest? That would have been all good to say. Anyway, my friend William Hague is the Chancellor of Oxford and he was dressed in the most extraordinary and magnificent outfit which I know William and I know he would say, I don't know, I don't pay much attention to what I wear but I absolutely know you love wearing this. He's sort of gold robes with a sort of mortar board, you know, like a classic academic world board and he's in this big ceremony and he's giving all these honorary degrees to famous people and I was just looking at it and I was thinking, William, you are absolutely loving this moment. Was that the punchline? Yeah, I was trying to think about that. I kind of, I was waiting

5:16for the minute. The only thing I was thinking is where's my honorary degree? Have you got an honorary degree from Oxford? No, I have not. But you went to Oxford. I did go, yeah. And that's a good question. I mean, I've had an honorary degree from East Anglia, where I was born, notting him and notting him Trent, where I grew up. I mean, I'm actually an honorary fellow at our college but what is William Hague doing? He's asleep at the wheel. When I stopped being Chancellor and it was all pretty traumatic for me. Manchester University said, would you like to be a kind of honorary fellow in the politics and economics department and I was so touched, it meant a huge amount to me actually and I thought my got, you know, to really kind of establish myself in the ecosystem of Manchester and the city, you know, not the city I was born in and certainly not city teaming with conservatives at the time. So last night on the internet, were you looking at these videos? Wondering why William Hague has not yet given you an honorary degree? I was not. But I've had not much contact with my university since I left and when I did leave office, not only did Manchester

6:20give me the honorary fellowship, but all these American universities came out of the woodwork, like Harvard and Stanford, where I now teach. Kind of begs the question. Well, where's your honorary degree from Oxford? I've not got one either. Maybe you're just using this proxy. I see what this, I'm not a close friend to the Chancellor. I'd probably make it easier for him to give it to you. I mean, in principle, you are right in practice. I can't say we're not important enough to get one because I did notice that a rival, not not a rival, sorry, a totally different subject area, another podcaster who does a very well-known history podcast was getting an honorary degree. So podcasters are eligible. The thing we should we can say now is it is totally impossible for us ever to get an honorary degree from Oxford. Have we talked to ourselves out of it? We've rained on that parade. We should get on with our questions and I think you foreshadowed this one in our main podcast. Yes, we were talking about what happened when the Gove family dog jumped out of the car at Dornewood and attacked one

7:23of the chickens. The chicken here happens to be called Gordon. And I was trying to recollect the events. We were talking about it last week. I hadn't planned to bring it up, but it kind of suddenly came into my head. And then was there an inquiry? There was a brief inquiry at the time, held by me. Like, why the hell is this dog jumped out and tapped this chicken? That was before you broke the chicken's neck. Before I had to clean up the mess. We have had a question from someone who was actually there at the time. And I witnessed. And I witnessed. And that is. And she was pretty smart then. And she's very smart now. Beatrice Gove. I used to call her B. So I don't show how to call her B. But anyway, B. Beatrice, here is your question. I had enjoyed it's B here. The co-conspirator in the beheading of Gordon the chicken. God rest his soul. Anyway, if anyone's wondering, the dog's name was Mars as in the God of War, which feels very on the nose. But yeah, on a slightly less gory note, I was hoping to get your thoughts and some

8:26polling, but we've just done a fragile advisory for our political risk report. We surveyed 500 business executives and asked how they'd vote if they were thinking purely in terms of their company's interests. The vote basically split between a Starmer-led Labour government and reform UK with the Conservative trailing pretty far behind. The Tory slump isn't wildly shocking. I think that malaise has been both established and understood for quite a while now. But what I'm particularly interested in is your expert insight into how reform has managed to garner such a large portion of the vote share in the business community. Thank you so much. I look forward to hearing your response. So, hearing that the dog was called Mars from me. I mean, I immediately thought, you know, presumed the slogan is, a chicken a day helps you work, rest and play if you are a dog. I'm certainly Mars's case. I don't think to be fair to Mars, you kind of knew what he'd done, really. And that is an interesting philosophical reflection on the nature of sentience in animals. And I agree with you, but there will be very many pet lovers and dog owners who will disagree

9:29with you and say, of course, the dog knew what he was doing. But, you know, if you studied Wittgenstein, you would know without language, you can't know what he's done. Oh, the private language theory. So, what about reform? I'm going to be on tomorrow for a day. I'm Nigel Farage. You know, on Good Morning Britain this week, for the second week running, I managed to quote Derek Parford, Reasons and Persons live on ITV Breakfast Television. You are still going to have a job in the third week. I've still got a job. Interesting reflection on the nature of personhood and whether or not selves change through time. Parford's theory was that a person is a succession of past and future selves and that yourself at any point in time is different from your earlier or later selves, but it's that continuity which allows you to sort of both evolve as a person and almost change as a person and yet still be the same person. Very interesting. I think the Good Morning Britain viewers were fascinated by it. And you can't, you're not physically the same person, are you? Because all of your self, I think maybe with the exception of some stem cells,

10:30basically all of your cells are different from the cells you're born with. In terms of atoms, you're not the same. Oh, anyway, this isn't the philosophy podcast. Look, if you get Parford and Bikkenstein into your first could be, do you know what you've done? You have elevated our tone. Right. Anyway, talking about elevating. To bring the tone down, let's talk about Nigel Farage. So, the survey shows two things. One is that, you know, I think if you were a labour and you were looking at a survey, you would be pleased with you that you're continuing to hold the support of some of the business community. So, you have a loss of support despite the national insurance rise and all the questions about whether they're on the economic plan. Do you know what the business vote did on Brexit? How did the business vote split on Brexit? Was it 50-50? Well, I think corporate Britain voted to remain. I don't know about small business owners, I suspect. It's probably dependent a bit on the business. Although, you know, one of the biggest casualties of Brexit have been small and medium-sized business exports, yeah.

11:30I ask because I wonder whether this survey reflects also that divide between bigger or corporate business and smaller entrepreneurial business. I think the Conservatives will be disappointed, because I think, you know, almost all routes to a conservative revival lead through economic competence, support again of the business community. I mean, we put a huge amount of effort into and we were in an opposition trying to re-attach ourselves to the business community. And that's for reform. I mean, what I don't know is to what degree that is. There's definitely a kind of kind of business person, you know, who I spent much of my time in politics coming across, who's the... Why don't they just get rid of government, can't red tape, you know, you're crushing wealth creators, etc. There's obviously there's some truth in all of that, but that kind of business person can take it to an extreme and see no role for government at all. And that, you know, that Nigel Farage, he talks sense, I can imagine that kind of, you know, type of person who

12:31I came across at Conservative Party events saying, you know, he, and he knows money, he was in the city, he's, you know, so I'm sure there are some of those people out and it's a reflection, of course, of how, you know, reform has been doing better. I think that there's also going to be quite a lot of fair-weather friends for reform. And there is no doubt, I'd be really interested in their party conference this autumn, because I thought it was surprising at the last party conference. They didn't do the full party conference that we do the Conservatives or the Labour Party does or the Liberal Democrats. I think they do a kind of weekend thing. But I was surprised that actually there weren't that many of the sort of big businesses and the business organisations at the event last year. From what I heard from the reports, I mean, I didn't go myself, so this is what I, I think that will change this year. I think the corporate Britain is definitely starting to hedge its bets with reform and will be turning up at their events. The corporate affairs departments of the big FTSE companies will be booking stalls at the reform conference and seeking out meetings with

13:35reform politicians and so on, just to sort of make, you know, what partly to do their job, which is to try and anticipate where things might go and prepare for different eventualities, and just to hedge their bets a bit. And they'll be doing what they, you know, it's their job to do in the kind of corporate affairs, government affairs departments of these businesses and these business organisations. Of course, it has, however, a sort of self-fulfilling element to it, because the more you're taken seriously, the more serious you become. You know, the more people think you might be the next government, the more you actually become the next government. And certainly, I remember in opposition, when the kind of business community starts to get around you, because they think you're going to win, as well as, hopefully, you know, we were saying things that were going to attract them, but there was definitely a kind of fair weather element to it. And I think they'll start to really benefit from that in the next couple of years, and that will be self-reinforcing. Although there's an asymmetry, isn't there, in that you wouldn't expect the same thing to happen, despite by-elections and opinion polls to the Green Party Conference. And does that tell you that the left attitude to business is different to the right

14:40attitude to business, or does it tell you that reform is trying to get electable and the Greens aren't? I think the Green Party at the moment is not really trying to present itself as an alternative government. I don't think it's trying to say we are going to be the government of the country. And, of course, they have a very ambivalent attitude towards business. That can change, or, of course, like the Green Party in Germany, became very engaged with the business community there. And if you look at think of Labour at Labour under Corbin, you know, in fact, he got pretty close to office in 2017, wouldn't have been remotely interested in the business community. Labour under Starmer Rachel Reeves, they make a huge effort in opposition to attract the business community. Does that think they see it as addressing the big kind of question mark always hangs over a Labour opposition, which is can you be trusted with the money? So I think it is different, but if the Greens morph into something more akin to a kind of middle-class, more contemporary version of Liberal Democrats, I guess, more contemporaries are all aware, but, you know, replacement for Liberal Democrats, then, yeah, they will start

15:40gawting the business community. So, beer, your question is taking us through the sentience of dogs, through philosophy of mind. Kierstner, I'm being pleased with where he is, and can we be not under pressure via the nature of being taken seriously in politics to what is the Green Party strategy? And I think we would like you to send us future questions, because, you know, if your questions provoke such conversations, then we'd like to have more of it. But in the meantime, we should move on, and our next question is from Anthony. Hi, Ed and George, it's Anthony from the British Museum. Later this year, we've got the Bayo Tapestry coming to the museum, and in exchange, we're giving French galleries and museums in northern France some of the treasures from our museum collection. This is obviously a big cultural moment for the UK and for France, but I wondered if you can think of any other moments in history where a cultural exchange like this has been used to advance relationship building between two countries. Thanks very much, and keep up the great work on the pod. So that is a great question, Anthony, and I'll go first,

16:44because then we can hear from Mr Chairman in a moment about what's happening at the British Museum. I mentioned Tutankhamen when we talked about this in the podcast as a similar cultural moment, but I'm not sure that that provoked a broader cultural moment between Britain and Egypt. But around the same time, there was a similar thing happening, which was a bilateral cultural moment, which if you remember in 1974, following Nixon's trip to China, what began as China opened out to the world was a spate of panda diplomacy in 1974. The Chinese gifted to London Zoo, and Qing Qing diplomatic gift from China to the UK as a symbol of reviving diplomatic relations. So that is an example of a cultural moment between two countries. I was thinking, you could make the same argument, Anthony, about Eurovision. We've got the Eurovision

17:48Song Contest coming up in a few weeks time, and that has become something which isn't just about entertainment, but over the last 50 years has become more political. It's become moments where nations express solidarity between themselves through the active participation as well, of people voting for different songs. And you see all of the fascinating way in which different countries vote for other countries' songs. So that is an example of cultural, political diplomacy happening through this kind of exchange. And then the other thing I was thinking was, if you think about Beetle Mania in the 1960s, that wasn't something that the government sought to do, but the Beatles going to America undoubtedly unleashed a sense of British cultural identity through the Beatles in America, which has probably had long-lasting effects. And the same thing is happening today and has done in recent years, not between Britain and America, but between Britain and South Korea. K-pop, Gangnam style, we now have the huge hit which is K-pop demon hunters,

18:50and that has undoubtedly raised awareness and understanding and interest in Britain and around the world in South Korean culture. Again, not something which was done by governments, probably not intended by any institution like the British Museum, but at the same time, has had that kind of big cultural moment and advanced understanding anyway between countries. And so this happens all the time in very many different ways. And I think the Bayo tapestry coming to London is going to be another example of something which is kind of deep in our shared cultural history. I certainly hope so. I mean, I think it's going to be a huge show. I didn't know Anthony who got to send a question in. It's great that you have Anthony's doing a brilliant job in the communications department at the British Museum. And we were both standing in a rather chilly, Piccadilly Circus a couple of weeks ago as the digital billboards in Piccadilly Circus were advertising the Bayo tapestry. It's a good question. You know, what are kind of parallel moments?

19:53I mean, I think there are kind of moments of cultural exchange, sometimes not nearly as collaborative as tapestry exchange is. You know, if you think of like the British and French invasions of Egypt around the Napoleonic Wars and the Battle of Aboca Bay, it gave rise to a whole kind of trend for lots of Egyptian things in Paris and London. And you can see it reflecting in the architecture and the furniture of the time and the jewelry of the time. So you get moments like that and you get a similar thing with kind of Indian objects and Indian language and sort of being integrated into Britain as a result of empire. So you get those sorts of exchanges, but they're not around one exhibition and they're often not consensual as they're born of invasion. I was trying to think of a kind of single show that I think did two hours ago because I had quite an impact. And it's probably one that people won't remember so well, but it was at the British Museum. It was an exhibition on Germany when I was Chancellor. So it was about 15 years ago,

20:56it was put on by Neil McGregor, the great British Museum director at the time. And it was about the kind of history of Germany and what it means to be German because the borders of Germany have changed dramatically over the centuries and for a long time. Of course, it wasn't a country but many individual states and kingdoms and cities and so on. It had a real impact. I mean, it was a brilliant exhibition and it wasn't a classic British Museum exhibition because it was very contemporary. It wasn't just about the past. And what I remember at the time is the Angela Merkel, who was the German Chancellor, was really struck by the exhibition. And she came a couple of times, first of all, in a more sort of public capacity because it was a big show about Germany and London. But then she came privately because she wanted to spend much longer at the exhibition and she said at the time, you know, we couldn't put this show on in Germany. It asks some really fundamental questions about what it means to be German. And it raises issues which we,

21:58you know, find too sensitive to raise ourselves. I thought it was a really good example of something having a, although the show was in Britain, it was having a potentially a bigger impact in Germany. That kind of springs to mind as a really successful exhibition on the other way round. I mean, I remember back when it was kind of okay to talk to the Chinese and engage with China. The thing that they were really interested in was Shakespeare. And I think when Gordon Brown was Prime Minister of the Chinese Premier, not the President, but the Premier wanted to go to Stratford upon Avin. And that was going to part of his visit to the UK that he went Stratford upon Avin. And when we were in government, we've actually paid and gave money to the Royal Shakespeare Company to translate the plays into Chinese and to put on a tour in China. And I think that kind of cultural diplomacy only good can come of it. I mean, in terms of spreading your culture, getting your culture better understood on the outside of the world. Certainly, we need conversations have had with

22:59the RSC in the years since they remember that as a kind of particularly, you know, good thing that was done at the time. George could just say, I don't think that you are taking my contribution hugely seriously. I mean, you didn't refer to either Chinese pandas or Eurovision or K-pop demon hunters. I sort of feel as though, did you think I was a bit too downmarket in low brown? Not at all. I thought Eurovision was totally off the topic, but I didn't intervene to say so. But pandas and well, K-pop is a great example of, I think that's a bit like Beethel Mania. It's kind of something, you know, South Korea is clearly a really interesting, exciting cultural place of the moment and probably totally unconnected with the South Korean government. Lots of things are happening. There is actually a big South Korean show, a Korean show coming up in the British Museum, there's also much people should go and see. On the pandas, did you not notice that the Chinese have withdrawn the panda from Japan? That's part of the row at the moment with Japan. The new

24:01Japanese prime minister, this very powerful and effective and popular woman, their first female prime minister, but she said things about Taiwan, suggesting that Japan might come to the defense of Taiwan. And as a result, the Chinese who never give away their pandas, they only lease their pandas, have withdrawn their panda from, I guess it must be Tokyo Zoo. Look, I don't want to kind of return to past warnings, but let's just hope you don't damage that Bayo tapestry when it's in transit from France to the UK because who knows what the consequences might be, you know, it wouldn't just be the French withdrawing their pandas, it could be a whole lot worse, goodness knows. It's in very good hands, rest assured. Thank you Anthony for your question and we'll take a break. We'll be back shortly. Mom, Dad, I'm not throwing shade, but the whole New Year's resolution thing, kind of slip in,

25:02no offense. Anyway, my best friend, Jenny's Dad, crushing it. He uses blue apron. He says he ordered one pan assemble and bake meals and these things called milk kits. They're all super easy to bake. He keeps y'all in protein and fiber, baby. Also, the food, we tried it so good. So maybe you check it out or whatever, blue apron, give 50% off your first two orders plus free shipping with codeless and 50 terms and conditions apply, visit blue apron dot com slash terms for more. Every idea starts with a problem. Morby parkers was simple. Glasses are too expensive, so they set out to change that. By designing glasses in-house and selling directly to customers, they're able to offer prescription eyewear that's expertly crafted and unexpectedly affordable. Warby Parker glasses are made from premium materials like impact-resistant polycarbonate and custom acetate and they start at just $95, including prescription lenses. Get glasses made from the good stuff. Stop by a Warby Parker store near you. A password manager should be the first security purchase you make for your team. Why? Because compromised passwords are the number one way

26:05bad actors attack companies and small businesses are their favorite targets. But unlike a lot of security challenges, passwords actually have a pretty simple solution. One password lets you manage all your businesses credentials so you can feel confident that your data stays secure as your company grows. Find out more at onepassword.com slash special offer and start securing every login. Welcome back. Our next question is from Jennifer. Hi Ed and George, love the podcast. I wanted to ask a question about indefinitely to remain. Ed recently mentioned that parts of the Labour Party are very unhappy that the time frame may be less stringent for doctors, nurses and high-runners than for carers. For those who come as doctors or nurses and other specialist high-paying occupations, those individuals are likely to keep working in broadly the same roles after receiving indefinitely to remain. For care workers, this is not so likely given the conditions

27:07in those sector. So the question is really about whether five years of care work is the appropriate level of contribution to be put on a path to citizenship. Why is this debate not being clear at terms and does Ed think that if it were put in those terms some of the Labour disquiet may go away? Ed, what do you explain to people what's going on? What's the argument here inside the Labour movement and then we'll un-pick it? So I referred to Shabbana Mermood's article in The Guardian last week in which she said that while they were going to increase the qualifying period for somebody to be in our country before they can finally get indefinitely to remain, that would be sensitive to people's commitment and that if you were a doctor, a nurse or a high-erner, then you'd be able to get that permanent status more quickly. And I was pointing out that that would cause difficulties for people who don't think that is fair because they will say, hang on a sec, what is it about high-erners? There are people who came

28:12here in the barstrums and we've seen that period on low wages to work in social care because we were short of people to work. Why should they be penalised? Now, interesting argument back from Jennifer, where she looks at this from the point of view of migration and she says, well, hang on a sec, the difference is a care worker could be here and then switch over to work in another occupation, maybe a non-shortage occupation, although I think you could make the same argument, but somebody who comes to work here as a doctor or a nurse and then, once they've been here for a period of time, jumps over to work in the private sector rather than in the public sector, which would get a question whether they were making a contribution to our national health service. There's also an argument which says that the care industry went out and found people who they could persuade to come and work here in the care sector and actually, rather, more people came than there were jobs and it's easier to have that kind of immigration scam if you are in a lower wage, lower skilled sector where you have to show less professional contribution,

29:16but I think that the push back to Jennifer is the argument I'm making is not about the mechanics of immigration, it's actually about that fairness argument whether in the end the wage is how people assess your contribution and that may be an economist's way to think about it, but I think lots of people in the labour side will think that that actually undervalues people who work hard on lower skills and make an important contribution in a way which is less monetized and that's why if I were Shabbana Mahmoud, I'm not sure the high earner's distinction is the best one, doctors and nurses fine, but actually important vital occupations is a broader way to specify that. If I want to come and spend loads of money investing in a business fine, but to say a low earner deserves less standing, I don't think that's an argument which she'll find easy to run and as I said last week in these debates it's often not the big picture but the detail which can cause you trouble in Parliament.

30:19That thing we're just saying is a very fair assessment of kind of where the route sits in the labour party but doesn't this speak to a kind of broader problem that of which I've been myself guilty of so it's not kind of aimed specifically labour but that approach which is all people are of value and all work can be valued and we shouldn't make a distinction between a neurosurgeon and a care worker. It leads you to an immigration policy where you basically let everyone in and you could argue that's absolutely what happened with Boris Johnson's policy, right? So they ended up letting in hundreds of thousands of people from India and Nigeria to work in the care sector and get degrees in universities and they could bring their families in and it turned out and you know as a result you know a million people came in. But the reason why that happened was there was an income level but they gave visas to people on lowering cons because there was a shortage and they needed to fill a vital national gap so yes but that's not clear why you then penalise the person who came on that basis. It's not there's a penalising him. First of all I'm

31:23very suspicious of of anyway kind of the government and the state thinking it kind of can identify labour shortages and you know I mean I think that's all a bit too state planning but they don't identify that you need like thousands of Uber drivers or whatever because they don't that doesn't feature on their kind of surveys and their rather old fashioned way of thinking about the economy. But if you think about agriculture we allow visas for lower wage workers because industry says we have a vital industrial need and so you do have in the immigration system exceptions for particular occupations independent of their wage. And it but I think that's quite an old fashioned approach to think that kind of raspberry pickers in Kent you know can be identified because you speak to 10 raspberry farms whereas sort of broader jobs in the economy which might be just not properly represented in kind of ONS surveys yet neglected. You then you know if you're being if you are controlling immigration for work visa purposes there is a different route which is to be utterly

32:23ruthless you know we are going to attract the highest paid higher skilled people who've had the most money spent on their training and education people in the world I mean that's what America does with it's kind of high-end visas into Silicon Valley and you know every time that's tried in Britain it does sort of struggles a bit and people complain that you can buy a visa and so on there's a bit of kind of national ambition which is let's go and hoover up the best talent in the world and I think that is a kind of bit more real politic of the kind of modern economy and the otherwise you just end up with either letting no one in because you don't want to have a row about numbers coming in or you let everyone in because you don't want to say look the you know AI researcher who Silicon Valley is desperately trying to hire we're going to get to the UK is intrinsically someone would rather have here than a care worker and and of course it's a really hard argument to make and that's why Shabban and Moudre's you know there is this around the Labour Party but frankly if you know a country really focused on its kind of key interest

33:28and trying to limit numbers of people coming into the country because of course none of this really applied when we had free movement of Labour within the European Union because the European Union was a big enough pool of people to supply some of the lower skilled albeit hardworking professions things I don't have to be against the argument you've just made looking forward although the answer to it is if you're going to attract through immigration people into higher wage sectors and you've got a shortage of care workers in a low wage sector in that case if you're not going to fill it with cheap Labour from around the world you've got to fill it by properly paying care workers in Britain to do those care jobs and that is actually a better solution and consistent with the argument you just made but the problem here is we're talking experts we're talking about people who have to have already come so what Shabban and Moudre will have is a system which says to people who came because we asked them to come but they're in a low wage sector tougher rules than people who came because they earn more and all I'm saying is I don't think this is simply about a Labour

34:32argument I think that people have an intrinsic sense of fairness and fair play the same people who want our borders properly controlled also don't like seeing people within their communities who they've lived with and worked with and their kids have gone to school with suddenly being told we're going to be tougher on you or we're going to throw you out of the country or we're going to penalise you because in this case you don't earn enough don't underestimate the importance of people's sense of fair play when it comes to the way in which the rules operate especially to people who are already here and already parts of our communities and I just think that's the dimension which Jennifer didn't reflect in her question but do you think it's reasonable if you come to work for a couple years let's stick on the care sector come to work for a couple years in a care home and knowledge that entitles you to kind of British citizenship for the rest of your life I don't think that no I don't think that but that's not where the fairness issue bites we could say that you need to be here for as it is now five years we could say you need to be here

35:34for seven years or for ten years the issue is in the legislation when you start to say well it will be five years if you're high paid but ten years if you're lower paid that is where the people's sense of fair play starts to bite I'm just saying I think that will be one of the issues which will cause difficulties for ministers another will be you know this sense that when once you're here that you are being continually assessed as to whether or not you are still legitimate to stay if you've come as somebody who's been granted asylum again I think that will throw up lots of difficult fairness issues and you know it's the individual cases as you know from your time as chancellor which causes you the greatest difficulty when it feels not fair it's always why you have to anytime you make a change in inheritance tax or that kind of rules you have to think well if you have the wife or husband of the service personnel the armed service personnel who lost their life

36:37abroad am I sure that I'm going to treat that widow fairly if you get that wrong you can scuffle your whole policy so you always have to worry about the detail and that's just one detail I pick up on from shabana's arguments to you I don't worry about should we take a break and do one more question a password manager should be the first security purchase you make for your team why because compromise passwords are the number one way bad actors attack companies and small businesses are their favorite targets but unlike a lot of security challenges passwords actually have a pretty simple solution one password lets you manage all your businesses credentials so you can feel confident that your data stays secure as your company grows find out more at onepassword.com slash special offer and start securing every login there's one place for the newest drops in

37:38wellness and performance and the biggest sale of the year it's the drop by GNC curating the best of what's new hand picked by the pros who know what works and right now get it all by one get one fifty percent off during the semi annual live well sale from crushing workouts to leveling up to nutrition and everything in between get the best deals on the latest innovations all the on sale right now during the live well sale on the drop by GNC if you've used babble you would babble's conversation based technique teaches you useful words and phrases to get you speaking quickly about the things you actually talk about in the real world with lessons handcrafted by the 200 language experts and voiced by real native speakers babble is like having a private tutor in your pocket start speaking with babble today get up to 55% off your babble subscription right now at babble.com slash a cast spelled B-A-B-B-E-L.com slash a cast rules and restrictions may

38:44apply. Welcome back we've got a very topical question from Ben now. I had endured I'm currently in Dubai after traveling here for a short holiday with drones and missiles passing overhead the situation is extremely concerning we've been unable to find a safe route back to the UK given your experience in government could you share any insight into what may be happening behind the scenes communication to British nationals here has been very limited with no clear plan for evacuation or repatriation I was also disappointed by a Davies comments in the comments about tax evading expats at a time when British nationals are fearful for their safety the party should be protecting and repatriating UK citizens I look forward to hearing your thoughts on this thank you so this is really interesting if you think of recent examples of these sort of mass repatriations two examples come to my mind one back in March 2020 at the beginning of the pandemic when you had tourists around the world suddenly caught because airspace was closing and

39:50it was hard for them to get back home from trips or from holidays and the government had to find a way to help people to come back and then on a smaller scale but in a more complicated scale you had around the same time Afghanistan when you had British citizens but also people who'd work with the British in Kabul where they needed to be returned but the difference there was while it was in one place rather than in a spread of countries it was happening at a time when there was military action and when bombs were falling and security was hard and the interesting thing about what's happening at the moment in Dubai the UAE and other places in the Middle East it's the worst of both worlds you both have huge numbers of people in lots and lots of different locations so not concentrated but dispersed but also at a time when it's not just air spaces are closed but you also have bombs drones risk problems around kind of insurance for private carriers so you know

40:54it's a very very difficult situation what you can't do as a government is just get hundreds of thousands of people back on planes you need the the private sector to do the bulk of the work but you need to know where everybody is and what their issues are because if there are people who are vulnerable because they are ill or they've got young children there's you know a wider health or financial vulnerability those are the people who have to be prioritized and that is the challenge I think the government's been facing over the last week then go to Ben's question about Ed David. They have a Freudian slip there Ed David Ed Miliband both bleeding art liberals they're both called Ed you know are two Ed's better than one not always and you admire them both equally absolutely when Ed David said this we talked about this on Good Morning Britain it was a couple of days after the first American incursion and you had influences on Instagram and people

41:54had gone for tax reasons to buy saying you know we need to be helped and Ed David said these rather negative things I think they struck a chord at the time with them quite a lot of people in the country you know why should we be jumping to the tune of tax exiles and influences but of course what then transpires is its huge numbers of people a lot of them quite vulnerable stuck under pressure for all the reasons I just said a moment ago I think one of the things in politics is saying something on day one may feel like the right thing to say but over time I think Ben is right it starts to look pretty insensitive I think if Ed David was to look back he would probably think that what he said about those British nationals being caught in UAE to buy more widely I think he would probably think that in retrospect it was a bit insensitive I don't think you'd say the same thing again but I'll come on to Ed David in a moment I mean I think first of all I think the repatriation flights are a bit complicated in this situation I mean there are an absolute

42:56nightmare for government to organize I remember the start of the Libyan conflict there was kind of huge pressure to charter planes and evacuate citizens and there was a very strong case there because it was pretty hard to get out of Libya and there was a kind of civil war waging in the streets literally this was even before they're going to British and French engagement and there was a kind of genuine risk to lives there but it was still really hard to organize and ever since then I think the foreign office has spent like years planning and doing exercises on how to evacuate people and we've got close to having to do it at various points I remember a kind of bizarre conversation where we were told the Fukushima nuclear reactor which was already in serious trouble and it already kind of partly blown up as a result of the tsunami was going to melt down and we had to evacuate all the British citizens from Japan there were like tens of thousands of them so they went enough airplanes in the world to kind of get them all out and turned out the

43:58scientific advice was not accurate anyway so in this situation I'm not sure you need to lay off I mean I think you need potentially kind of consular support in getting people on to commercial airlines that are flying maybe help in you know in terms of relationships with the big airlines operating out of the Gulf to get people that you're talking about on to planes I'm not sure you actually need to lay on kind of British paid charter flights and I think there's a bit of the kind of wheels emotion of sort of pre planned things just happening without really people thinking is this necessary I mean on the Gulf states generally and the kind of relationship with people who there are a lot of Brits who live there and of course some are living there for tax purposes indeed there's this kind of there are some people trying to get themselves to Abu Dhabi and Dubai at the moment run leave because they're going to be timed out on the number of days they're out of the country for tax purposes and all that kind of thing so there is a bit of a

44:58traffic having happening other way of people trying to get back there so that they don't get hit by HMRC this year so there's definitely a bit of that in those jurisdictions of course more than a bit you know it's their low tax jurisdictions but there's also you know a pretty significant part of what Britain does is it has people who are you know well trained in things like the oil and gas industry and you know these days not all of that happens in the North Sea thanks a part to Ed Milliband you know they go around the world to places where they're oil fields and gas fields and that's a really important British industry and a British expertise and a British specialism and so on so there is real value in I think for our country having communities of British people living around the world because it spreads our influence and contributes to our national wealth even if they're not contributing always to our national taxes or at least at this point in their working lives they're not. I hesitate to remind you of Boris Johnson Kerry Johnson and the animals stuck in Kabul in Afghanistan and the kind of grief

46:00that caused for the government at the time only to remind you that you know well no no he did he forced them all to be put on some plane and presumably it was seats that otherwise or space on the aircraft that otherwise could have been used by human beings but he forced them onto it because there's an outcry and then his forcing then caused an outcry I think in the end all I'm saying they're not so delighted at all he said he absolutely no not true you know even then the emails emerged that said he absolutely was true. We've been there before with Boris Johnson all I'm saying is I think that in the end you want the private sector to do the bulk of the work but there's things governments have to do for the most vulnerable and you have to engage. I'm just saying getting out of Kabul as the Taliban are closing in whether we're a human being or indeed a dog is somewhat different from the situation today in Dubai, Doha, Abu Dhabi I mean there are tax underway but for the bulk of the population it's still a pretty safe environment. Well I think that that is said with the benefit of hindsight and I'm not necessarily sure that's how it felt on the Monday and Tuesday when a Davey made those comments which is why it was in

47:04retrospect risky but there we are. I just want to ask one question Ed Davey because he's your you know why he's you know he's like intervening on this he's saying the King shouldn't go on the state visit to America it feels like he's sort of grasping for quite kind of eye catching somewhat opportunistic things which I've actually have to do in opposition I'm not that naive but there is a kind of big question is how has the green party and we were talking about on our main podcast kind of occupied this space of labor's not left wing enough labor's not anti war enough or anti Trump enough or how is how is Ed Davey allowed the green party to fill a space that I think the liberal democrats filled back in 2003 four at the time of the Iraq war well he was my politician of the year 2024 but then didn't win it in 2025 and I feel as though he's working hard to try and come back in 2026 you know I think you're saying too hard in some of his interventions but at the same time you know Gordon and Denton was you know a blow for labor and a blow for the

48:10conservatives but actually maybe the biggest blow was for the liberal democrats because that absolutely ought to have been the kind of violation that the liberal democrats would have won in the past and the green's displacements so I think that is a really really big question I think maybe in the main podcast we should come back to what the rise of the greens means for British politics because I think that is about the liberal democrats and the Corbin Sultan of Party as much as it's for labor I'd love to talk about that now George but we need to go because we're out of time and thank you for your question Ben yeah of course if you've got questions to send us do send them in make sure you send it along with the voicemail to questions at political currency.co.uk and your question can be on anything domestic international economics history personal questions about how politicians operate or how we operate it says here are personal lives George I mean are you wanting questions about your personal life and the last 15 years doesn't mean I'm going to answer them I'm very happy to talk about my happy personal life that people might get

49:12all of that they might bite you out of our podcast can I be honest with you there's quite a lot of questions we can ask which you can try and answer before we get bored and the gauntlet's been thrown down and we'll be back on Thursday with another episode of our main show see you then thanks for listening to political currency this has been a pacifonica production there's one place for the newest drops in wellness and performance and the biggest sale of the year it's the drop by GNC curating the best of what's new handpicked by the pros who know what works and right now get it all by one get 150% off during the semi annual live well sale from crushing workouts to leveling up to nutrition and everything in between get the best deals on the latest innovations all the newness is all on sale right now during the live well sale on the drop by GNC

50:17a password manager should be the first security purchase you make for your team why because compromise passwords are the number one way bad actors attack companies and small businesses are their favorite targets but unlike a lot of security challenges passwords actually have a pretty simple solution one password lets you manage all your businesses credentials so you can feel confident that your data stays secure as your company grows find out more at onepassword.com slash special offer and start securing every logon