Dressage Today S7 E3: Interview With Noel Williams

0:00You are listening to the Horse Radio Network, part of the Equine Network family. Welcome to the Dressage Today podcast. This month we are sponsored by Kentucky Performance Products Elevate product. This month we are really excited to get to speak to Noel Williams of Noel Williams Dressage. We would love to hear any feedback you have on the interview and we welcome any questions you may have for Noel. In addition to that, we are always looking for judging questions that you may have for Aviva for our Ask the L segment. So feel free to email either of us at the addresses provided in the transcript. Always remember, if you like what we're doing, make sure to subscribe and share with your friends. Aviva, how are you? Hey, Steph. I'm good. How are you? Good.

1:00Good. Good. What's been going on in Aviva's world lately? Well, you know, we've had the winter from hell, so not luck going on here. You know, we're all sort of struggling to get into the swing of things again. And right now we're going through the Maryland temperature swings when one day it's 70 and the next day it's 20, literally the next day it's too many. It's, yeah. So, you know, it's, it's rough, but you've had a lot of pollocks this time of year. Shh. Shh. Not at your barn, of course. Well, it is, it is a very scary time. It is a very scary time, but yeah, we've been, you know, I'm knocking wood dramatically here. Mm-hmm. I gotcha. Good. Yeah. Okay, moving on. Tell me about what you've been doing because you've been doing fun things. I have been doing fun things. I had Mary Wannlis here for three days doing her amazing Mary Wannlis stuff.

2:02She's 72, almost 73 and she is just a going concern. So she had some, some people that she's seen before and we had several new people that she bent their brains and she gave me some amazing stuff to do with my body that helped improve my tempi changes. Oh, wonderful. Yeah, that was really exciting and then I went to Maui, went back to Maui and saw my Maui peeps. I got to see whales breaching in the distance. I didn't get down on the water, but you can actually see them from the arena. So I was, I was teaching somebody and I'd see something and I'd go, is that a whale? And most of the time people would go, yeah, yeah, that's a whale. Everyone's in a while they're like, it's a boat, just keep teaching. I did, I did see the video, part of the video that you posted and I was just looking at, you know, that arena sitting up and looking down at the ocean and, oh, how beautiful.

3:04How beautiful. And you can actually see the city of Lahaina from their barn. Wow. And you can see there's, you know, there's still a lot of stuff that's not been rebuilt, but there's so much that they have rebuilt, they started with houses, so that's really awesome. But shortly after I left, they got the Hawaii version of Maryland's snowmageddon in five days and it hit the whole state of Hawaii, but Maui was hit the worst. They had anywhere from 17 to 44 inches in the plane in five days. 44 inches? Inches. Yes. Wow. So some of the same people that lost their houses in the fire just had their new house flooded. Oh, that's so sad. So yeah, I mean, it's not, it's obviously not nearly the same level of devastation and

4:07they are in some ways really happy. It was greener there than I've seen in a long time when I was flying in, so they have been getting rain. So that's good. But this was a little more. Yeah. 44 inches is a little excessive. Isn't that crazy? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, but it was good. Everybody rode really well. I got some good videos of some people making changes. So it was fun. Always fun. Great. Great. So Hawaii sounds amazing. Hawaii was great. You have other exciting news to talk about. So I'm going back up to Ocala area up to my old stomping grounds and stride the GMO that I used to be president of. I have me. I'm judging a ride a test, but I'm doing it from a biomechanics standpoint. So I'm going to watch them do the test and judge, hopefully I'll let you know how I judge. And then I'm going to give them, give each rider like one or two biomechanics changes they could make that would help improve their scores. Oh, that is so cool. I think it's going to be fun.

5:08Yeah. That's a different way of approaching it. Yeah. I like that. Yeah. So we'll see how it goes. And then the next day, I am going to their schooling show. And we will be taking our first trip, Dante and I down center line doing the pre-Saint George. Oh, congratulations. That's wonderful. I'm not sure that I feel prepared, but I've decided that I'm going either way. We can do all the parts. It's a schooling show. It's a schooling show. It's practice. You know, I honestly know very, very few people who have ever gone down center line for the first time with a horse at the pre-Saint George feeling confident. Yeah. You know, I mean, you've done it before. So at least you have that going for you. But you know, all these people I know, you know, they're like, I'm going down center line. I'm riding in a Shadbelly. I'm doing the pre-Saint George and, you know, 57, 58.

6:09But they went down center line and they were a Shadbelly. I had a trainer that I worked with a while back and she tells the story of doing her first ever pre-Saint George. And her trainer was K Meredith from Meredith Manor and, and yeah, I rode with K quite a bit. But she went, she went down center line. She halted at X. Her horse took one look at the judge's booth and said, I'm not going anywhere. And so she did the entire test on the A side of X and she sat there with this big grin on her face through the whole test going, I'm riding the pre-Saint George. I'm riding the pre-Saint George and she came out and K said, what was that? And she said, I rode the pre-Saint George. So you know what happens to happen to the best of us. You and Don Table will be wonderful. You have all the pieces, you know, this is your opportunity to figure out where the holes are, where the connective tissue needs to be.

7:09Yes, because in two weeks after that, I'm actually going to a rated show, so good for you. What color is your Shadbelly? I'm not wearing it this weekend. I decided since it is a schooling show. I didn't want to have to braid because he's got some mohawk and some mane. Have you ever ridden him in a Shadbelly? I haven't either. And that was the other thing is I didn't want to make that our debut experience with them. So you're going to ride? You're going to ride in it at home before the record show. Yeah, okay. It's, I got a, I got a black one, but it's kind of a soft black and it's got like gray. I don't want to say silver because that's too shiny, but it's got, it's got grayish metallic accents at the pockets and the, the points. Okay. So, well, when I, when I started leasing tiger with the intention of getting my silver metal, doing my pre-St. George, I bought a Shadbelly and it's absolutely dropped dead

8:09gorgeous. It's navy and it has a little bit of tasteful bling around the collar and on the pockets and the points are either a really deep dark blue brocade or, you know, the traditional canary yellow. It's absolutely beautiful and it has been sitting in my closet for almost five years and a very good friend of mine who also takes clinic lessons with me posted on Facebook that she was looking for a Shadbelly and did anybody have one and she's going to try my Shadbelly on this weekend and if it fits her, my Shadbelly will be going down center line to ride the pre-St. George without me and I can't think of someone that I care for more to do it if I can't do it. So, you know, letting go of the dreams is hard, but, you know, sending the legacy forward makes it just a little bit easier, you know.

9:11Wow, yeah, well, that has some bittersweet moments to it. I don't want to say I feel bad for you because that's not the right thing to say, but I think it is wonderful that you are sharing it with somebody else and you know what, if it's somebody that you're close to, you ever need to borrow it back? Well, you know, I'm okay with the idea that I never am going to earn my silver. You know, to do that would be to put pressure on Tiger that isn't in my opinion fair to him. You know, if he enjoyed going out and doing things, it would be one thing, but, you know, we used to go out every single week to the same farm for my lesson and I went through more gastroguard, ulcer guard than I can tell you. And you know, if he was that stressed doing something that he did every single week, my

10:16going out to show him at the pre-Saint George and the nerves that I'll have and everything else, that's about me and I owe him more than that. So, it was hard to let go, but once I did and I started seeing the price of showing, it got a whole lot easier. Yeah, it's, well, I will think of you when I am riding without my Shadbelly. And I will be riding without my Shadbelly for you. Okay. And you can think of me when you ride with your Shadbelly. There we go. There we go. But I'd rather that you thought about the test. Yeah, because I don't know if I can add that to the list of things that Mary wants me to think about. There you go. You know, it's so funny that you say that Mary gave you this help this past weekend. There was recently something that was posted on Facebook about if you're a trainer, should you be taking lessons?

11:19And it was this wonderful, yes, this is a coached sport. This is something nobody's gotten 100 yet. We can all improve, we can all learn more, we can all hone our skills. And it's just always so exciting to me when, you know, people who are really high level talk with humility about, I learned something new about where to put my, you know, my right reign. Yeah. Or I realized that in those counter transitions, I am collapsing or, you know, something, we all, we all do it. Well, and to have, you know, Kathy had helped me through movements and positioning. And then for Mary to tie it into the places in my body that were kind of letting go and kind of giving up the ghost at the moment, yeah, to be able to have two different layers

12:24of why, yeah, and how to fix. It just, it, it enables me to help more people at a deeper level watching them as well. Yeah. Because you can, you know, again, I, I would say like when Mary got me super organized in my body, and actually it was kind of a group, you know, she'd say, we'll do this. And I'm like, ooh, and I'm going to add this in. I felt very similar to how I felt when Kathy would put me into Ron Vera, let's say. Yeah. I was like, this is why Ron Vera works because I'm actually doing this with my body. But if I had to go through a corner and I can't go through and Ron Vera, now I know what to do with my body to maintain. Yeah. When I can't be in Ron Vera in my eight meter circle. Yeah. So it's all tied together. It is. And, you know, riding is, yeah, riding is hard. You know, and it's, you know, as an instructor, I watch other people ride all the time.

13:28And, you know, as an Elgrad, I judge people riding all the time. You know, I see thousands of riders a year and I nitpick and I, you know, whatever. And I think, God, I wish that I wish that I could teach myself because I find so many times I have a ride. And I finish my ride and I say, you know, the reason that that didn't work was that you XYZ. You don't need to XYZ. You need to ABC. I had a revelation. I hadn't had a lesson for a while because of the weather here. And I realized that I am collapsing rather than lifting in my canter transitions. And so I started teaching myself when I was riding and thinking about that. And wow, I wrote some really nice canter transitions today. And then I started thinking about, if you remember, when you taught me two years ago and, you know, my issue, I have such a mental issue that creates a physical issue with my flying changes.

14:30And, you know, I stopped today and I said, think about it. And I realized that what I, as I start doing multiple changes, I get more and more and more forward and I sacrifice more and more balance, both for me and for tiger. And so I took a breath and I started over again and I rode a beautiful line of threes that was completely balanced, was round, was through and was straight. And it was because I had an instructor, you know, even though it was, you know, people who weren't there. Yeah, but they were with me. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. So definitely, yeah, we do need instructors and you're lucky to have Mary on such a regular basis and to have Kathy. Yeah, I haven't seen Kathy in a while. I feel bad. I, you know, season just gets going and there's so much stuff and life gets away from us.

15:34Life gets away from us. Yes. Yeah. Well, how about, how about an ask the old question? Okay. What do we got? Well, this month, Diana wants to know what she needs to have in place to have a successful move from training to first level. Okay. So, Diana, the first thing that I'm going to say to you is to pull up training level and to pull up first level. And at the top of every single test, you will see something that says purpose and the purpose of training level, and I'm going to quote it, to confirm that the horse demonstrates correct basics by showing suppleness both laterally and longitudinally, moving freely forward in a clear rhythm with a steady tempo and readily accepting contact with the bit. Correct geometry and lines of travel should be shown. Okay. Right? Okay.

16:34So, now let's talk about what the purpose of first level is. To confirm that the horse demonstrates correct basics, and in addition to the requirements of training level has developed improved balance, lateral suppleness and throughness, as well as the thrust to perform lengthening of stride, the horse should be on the bit. So, I think that's, I could talk for an hour and answer this question, but I think that USDF did it for us. If you understand what is required at training level, if your horse is balanced, if you are doing correct geometry, if you are bending correctly, if you have relaxed, balanced, and by balance to training level, we're talking level balance, not on the forehand, not in collection, balanced, transitions, and balance throughout the test. You have met the requirements of training level. At first level, it should be a little bit easier. Right.

17:35That shouldn't be the struggle. That should be the... Yep. And, you know, horses aren't machines, so they can come in and out of balance. I mean, even if you watch Olympic Grand Prix riders, there are moments of not on the bit. You know, there are moments of insecurity and the connection. There are moments of irregularity and rhythm, you know, because they're not horses or not machines. So at training level, you may have little blips. At first level, we want to see fewer blips. We want to see a horse that stays pretty consistently in level balance, that is pretty consistently on the bit, which is more than an outline. Remember, on the bit means that the horse is stepping from the hind feet into the bridle, and then recycling the energy back. It is about balance and self-carriage, and no, we don't expect self-carriage of a Grand Prix horse at first level. But we do expect all horses to be in some degree of self-carriage, even at intro.

18:39Because, you know, if you're carrying your horse around at intro and at training level and at first level, when do you start teaching them about their own balance? Right. And is it fair at that point, because you're changing the expectations? So at first level, we're looking for a better training level horse, and there are the things like smaller circles, which means obviously more lateral suppleness, the consistency of on the bit, which means more longitudinal suppleness, and the ability to push more without losing balance, which is the lengthening. And then, of course, there's also the addition of cool like yield, and, you know, that's sort of it. And then we go to second level, and then we start talking about collection, but, yes, there's the counter-cancer loop, yes, which is also a real test of suppleness.

19:39And, you know, when we talk about suppleness, we're also talking about straightness, right? Because you can't be supple if you're not straight, you become crooked. You know, one of the things that I think is so profound is, I had an instructor tell me what straight on a circle meant, which just sounds ridiculous, doesn't it? Is your horse straight on the circle? Yeah, I talk about that all the time, it's me too. And for our listeners that don't know, straight on a circle, the inside hind leg and the inside front leg are on one arc. And the outside hind leg and the outside front leg are on another arc, which is longer. And it is as much longer as the width of your horse. So if you're on a little teeny tiny narrow horse, it may only be a few inches. If you're on a big bulky horse, it may be a lot more than that. And it means that the horse is stepping longer with the outside legs than he is with the

20:41inside legs. And most horses want to take the same size stride. And in order to do that, they make themselves crooked. So they're either popping their shoulders or they're bringing their hindquarters in or out. So excellent question. Yeah, that was good. The basics are simple, not easy, but if the basics aren't correct, everything else is just going to be harder moving up. Absolutely. So I'd like to give a little background on our interview, E, before we go to a word from our sponsor. Okay. So this month, we are talking to Noelle Williams. Noelle is the daughter of Georgian Roberta Williams, who are kind of a little bit your massage royalty. Noelle grew up around classical and high-performance dressage at Temple, Lippazons.

21:46She's been writing and competing all of her life with an Olympic dream at heart. She is an USCF small R judge and is currently, actually, I think she's a large R, yes, she's a large R. Yes, I think she needs to update her website there. She's a large R judge. And is currently in the USCF small R, Gersage Sport Horse Breeding Judges program. She's trained in competed numerous horses from young horses to FBI Grand Prix. She's a USCF bronze silver and gold medalist. She was on the 2007 North American Junior Young Rider Championship silver medal team and the 2005 USCF Junior Gersage team gold medal. And as well as being the 2005 USCF Junior National Gersage Champion. She aspires to continue her career on the international stage and to represent team USA in competition.

22:47She loves starting and developing young horses, especially stallions, and enjoys campaigning them through the CDI levels. So I think it's cool that she enjoys both the starting aspects and the upper level aspects. I think that's something that you're average rider is doing that, whether it's an off-the-track thoroughbred or the Arab that they bought from the breeder down the street. So to know that we have up and coming top level riders who enjoy that whole process and aren't just going out buying six-figure horses, she's fancy people are just like us. And she's in Maryland. And she's in Maryland. She's in Maryland. She's right up straight from me when we talked to her. She was in Florida just like me, so I enjoyed talking with her. I think she was very down to earth.

23:47Lovely woman. Yeah. I hope everybody enjoys listening to her. So we will get to that in just a moment, but first, a word from our sponsor. Does your performance horse have sore stiff muscles? Does he lack energy or tire quickly during exercise? Does his competition schedule require travel? Studies show that horses in regular training and those with limited access to pasture often require additional vitamin E. They also show that horses being trailered even short distances can face immunity challenges. Elevate natural vitamin E can help. A research proven, powerful antioxidant, elevate maintains healthy muscle, nerve, and immune functions. It does this by delivering a highly bioavailable source of natural vitamin E that is preferentially absorbed and retained in a horse's tissues. For more information, visit kppusa.com or call them at 859-873-2974.

24:56Today, we're joined by Noel Williams. Noel, thank you for joining us and happy to see that you're a little bit out of the terrible weather that Aviva stood up for. Thank you for having me. Absolutely. Absolutely. And I guess there's a little bit of a, by the time this goes out, it won't be a surprise anymore. That's true. It is. Yes. It's always going on in your life. You're surprising someone near and dear to your heart. Yes. Yeah. So today is my mom's 70th birthday, so we are throwing a surprise party for her. And I think she will be surprised because she's been a little bit salty about the fact that my dad doesn't have plans. She's made some comments. And I'm like, okay, mom, yeah, they've been married. Forty years.

25:56That'll be 41 this year. Wow. That gives you a reason for salt. Salt. Yeah. It was understood at that age. Yeah. Wow. Wow. Well. But that's a great way to do it. That's, that's fun. That'll be very fun. Yeah. You know, your parents, you're, you have grown up a little bit like horse royalty, not that I think you act like horse royalty. But you know, to grow up in the Williams household, it's like growing up in the pool in household. It's highly unlikely that you weren't going to end up being a horse person. So what was your, do you remember your very first horse memory? I actually don't. And I was thinking about this trying to figure out like what was my first horse memory. And I don't really have one. But I do have a lot of memories of growing up at Temple and riding and like mostly like riding my pony in Apple orchard and getting stung by bees in the Apple orchard or getting

26:59hit in the sea. He's like, Francis, you know, like things like that, doing things I wasn't supposed to. Riding on the steeple chase course for hours, stuff like that. Yeah. Yeah. Now, how big was that place back in the day? So I can't remember if it was 7,000 acres or 4,000 acres, but it's seven square miles. Oh my God. Yeah. Yeah. It's huge. So I know. And it still is intact. And the town of Old Mill Creek was created by Temple Smith who started the farm. He bought up all of the farms in the area and then created this like town, which isn't really a town. But yeah. So like the town of Old Mill Creek is basically Temple farms, except for there's a club that doesn't belong to them. But yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was very big. On the farm itself. Did you live there?

28:00Yeah. So because they had, they bought up like all of the farms in the area and I can't remember. I know who it is, but I can't remember. There was a, maybe it was the post. No, there was like a serial family that had farms there. I want to say it was serial needy general mills, somebody, somebody had farms there and there were horses there before the lipisons. But because of that, the lipisons were at several different barns and like, you know, they might be a mile away. So the main barn, I can't remember the name, everything had a name. So the main barn where the stallions were was there were like 36 stallions that were there. And then that was connected to the indoor arena and the annex, which is where the borders were. Like 40 some stalls there over the hill from that were a bunch of, that was the cross, those showgrounds and the cross country course. And then there were a bunch of houses like back way back in the woods.

29:03So I grew up at one of those houses and then later on, we moved to another house like across the street, but like a mile down the road or so. And that house, the second house I lived in was next to the barn that had the fields that there was this like giant field that the three-year-old cults and stallions lived in. And they lived, there was a herd of them. So that's, I grew up next to them too. Yeah. That's so interesting. You just said that it was a giant field with a herd of three-year-old cults and stallions. Yeah. That's so different from what we think of when we think of all these poor stallions who are isolated living by themselves. So the way I grew up is why I am as passionate as I am about stallions and handling and young horse handling and, you know, raising all of that. The barn at Temple where all the stallions were, I guess that it was like 36 stallions

30:03in the main barn. They all had bars. They all could see each other. They all were socialized. And they lived in the herd until it was time to bring them in and start them. And usually by that time they started them in the summer. By that time, I guess the place started getting a little bit rough, but it was, I mean, they were, they were socialized. They could, they could be in a quadril, you know, stallions in the same arena and it was mostly safe. Yeah. Mostly safe. Yeah. Yeah. I did see one. I actually did see one stallion fight. My dad and Carl McColka were before a performance. They were onto that hated each other and they were on their hind legs fighting. When I was like, oh, seven or eight years old, yeah, yeah, with riders on it was kind of interesting. Yeah. Yeah. So this is, this is just curiosity for me. So do you think that it's, it's the socialization for the Lippazons that allows that or do you think it's something inherent in the breed allows, sorry, which part that socialization

31:07that that ability to have eight stallions all in the same arena working together and next to one another the way that they do? I think it's very much the socialization, very much, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, there's more than norm in Europe that, that's, yeah, are stable beside each other and they aren't so segregated like we do here. It's just part of the, yeah, you go to some, sometimes you go to shows and you see somebody bring a stallion and they put tarps up all around the stall and those ones are usually the ones that are the worst behaved, but the ones that are, you know, used to being around other horses, those ones are usually better behaved and, and we saw that at Temple, I think. Yeah. So interesting. Did you get to ride them? I did. Yeah. So this isn't my first memory, but the first time I was on a horse, I apparently was five days old. I had just come home from the hospital and I guess that I grew up in the house that was

32:10like on top of the hill, which I thought was a giant hill, but I took my husband there last summer and, or two summers ago and I saw the hill and I was like, oh, this is a little hill, but I always thought it was giant. So I guess on the way home from the hospital, my dad and my godmother wrote up the hill on two of the lapis on stallions and wrote up to the back of the house because the house was on the cross-country horse and they put me on the horse that my dad was on. Before I walked into the house or was carried into the house, I was on the horse. Yeah. So truly was on a horse before I could walk, yeah. Well, you didn't have any options, did you? Yeah. I know. Yeah. My parents really did not, oh, go ahead, sorry. Oh, no, go ahead. You're fine. I was going to say, it's fine because my parents really did not want me to go into horses, but you're right. I really didn't have a choice. I mean, how could you not?

33:11Yeah. You were on your first, you were being long-lined on one of the lapisons when you were two years old. Yeah. Yeah. So on the feel of it back then. Yeah. I can't remember. That was, I think that was just send it was the long-raining horse. So my dad did the long-raining for the performances and, which is different than long-lining, the long-raining is where they're right, right on the horse's rear end. Right. Yeah. It's a pretty amazing skill. And I really keep asking my dad to teach me, but he doesn't like to. It's very hard on the body and it's potentially very, very dangerous because you are so close to them. But yeah, he, they put me on him when I was two. And there's the funniest video we call it, the Bobblehead video, because I'm up there. And you just see me like bobbing back and forth whenever the horse picks up the canter or does something and I kept losing my stir up and I was obsessed with getting my stir

34:12up back. So in the middle of a canter pirouette, I bent down and put my stir up back. So wise. It was completely oblivious that this horse is doing canter pirouettes and piaffin and posage and ones underneath me, like, just, you know, like a long for the ride. That's hysterical. That is a lie. We won't go too far down this rabbit hole. Did he teach the movements from the long rains or did they learn these movements in the saddle and also do them in the long rains? That's a good question. I don't actually know the answer to that. I know that I don't think that Jacinda was ridden. I don't think he could be ridden and I don't remember why. I'm going to have to ask these questions now. And then there was one later on, there was one by the name of Primrose, I think. And Primrose could only have a very light rider. So there was like one groom or working student who could ride him and then I was allowed

35:15to ride him when I was, I don't know, we moved, we moved there from there when I was 12. So I might have been like 10 or 11 and I used to ride Primrose, I think, around that time. And he was a long-rating horse. But that's a good question. I don't know if they learned everything first under saddle and then it was translated or how it started. And then, I guess this thing... Yeah. Yeah. And then I guess the same question then applies to for the heirs above the ground. I know the horses, which I never, unfortunately, I never got to ride. I know the horses with the heirs have this inherent talent for one. There's three ears above the ground, there's, well, I think there's another one. But the ones that they did at Temple were the Levant, the Corvette and the Caprile. And the Levant and the Corvette were done both in hand and under saddle. And then the Caprile was always in hand, although my dad did ride the Caprile.

36:18So there's some really neat photos of him riding the Caprile. But I guess some of them, like, the horses just do it naturally. And you'll have one that is only a Levant horse or only a Levant horse. And I don't know how they determine who has the talent for what, but I think the horse is kind of just offer it. And then now you know, okay, that's the... At least that's what I was always under the impression of, but... Yeah. Very cool. Very cool. So you started riding when you were five hours old. Yeah. But and it sounds as if you got sort of put on horses. Did you have formal training as a rider and was it your mom? Was it your dad? Was it somebody else at Temple? How did you learn to ride? I think it was mostly my mom. And I, I mean, my dad's the one who was long reigning me. So my dad was involved.

37:19And I think he maybe taught me on Primrose. And I don't know if I ever... I'm sure that other people were involved, but I don't really know who. But for the most part, it was my mom who I remember teaching me to ride. And I do remember, like, once or twice, I rode my pony with my dad. And I fell off because of him. And I kind of remember being like, I don't want to ride. I was mad at him. I think the second time. And like, when I was, when I first started backing horses, I think I was like, well, we did one when I was like 14 or 15, but I was like 18 or 19 when I first started backing them. And at that point, I had only fallen off like five or six times in my life. And I know my parents were a little bit concerned that I hadn't fallen off enough. And I didn't fall off as a child. So the fact that I fell off twice because of my dad was like, that was it left an impression on the child.

38:19And I remember kind of being like mad at him. And I didn't want to ride with him or when he was around because he made me fall off. And have you now fallen off more than five or six times? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. There was a while there when I was riding some like young horses and problem horses that I came off like three times a year, like every year. I was always off. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I got used to it. But not when we want to have to use all that often. Yeah. Yeah. I don't bounce anymore. So. No. I never think about doing something besides dressage. I did. Yeah. Yeah. So my parents, I think, really, they really stressed that I be well-rounded and well-educated. And I think they did not want me to go into the business because it is such a difficult business because it's, it's very difficult emotionally and financially and, you know,

39:20it's hard on your body, all of those reasons. So they really encouraged me to do other things. And then my dad is very, both of my parents are very against napotism. They believe in fairness. And I think they wanted to make certain that if I did go into the business, it's because it's what I wanted and not what they wanted for me. So I went to college. I did other sports. The one I did the most was cheerleading and I was a cheerleader in college. And then I was a triple major, majored in philosophy, psychology, and politics. And then I minored in English. And I was like, well, I'm not a really good decision maker, the problem was I liked all of them. So I was like, well, you know, but my intent was to go to law school or to go to grad school for psychology, but I didn't really like a lot of the kids that were going to law school.

40:24I kind of found them a little bit sufferable. And I'm sure I was insufferable too, but I was like, I don't really want to deal with you guys for any longer than I have to. And then for psychology, I realized that I would have had an order to like make any money because my intent was that I was like, oh, I can go to grad school. I can get, you know, a well-paying job and then I can have, you know, my one horse on this side. And maybe after 10 years, I have a little bit of money that I can then safely have my now like go into horses full time where I'm not so financially vulnerable. But then I realized that if I wanted to make money in psychology, I needed a PhD, which then meant, you know, PhD in clinical psychology, which is harder to get into than Harvard Med. Those PhD programs are very competitive. And they also take up all of your time. And I would have spent eight years probably not being able to ride.

41:26And so I was like, well, I guess we're going straight into horses. And how did you start straight into horses? What did you do? So I worked, actually, I worked for my parents, the first winner in Wellington, yeah, that was right out of college. And I like cleaned stalls and groomed and I did all that. I think I had one horse of my own that I rode. And then I groomed for other people like I show groomed and I braided. And I worked in restaurants as well. And then in the summer in Ohio, we went back to Ohio. I worked part time for my dad. I groomed for him and then just picked up riding wherever I could. And the great thing about that is that then I was able to start kind of, I went out on my own quote unquote as a quote unquote, professional. I wasn't on my own without help. And you see a lot of these kids to not just today, but a lot of kids leave the rider program

42:28and then they're like, oh, well, now I'm a professional and they start taking clients, which I don't particularly like and agree with. I think they need to spend time as an assisted trainer and really spend time under somebody and really seeing how not just not just learning how to ride and train, but how to run the business and how to run an training program because, you know, the training is more than just the riding of the horse, it's the management, all of that. But to be fair, I kind of did the same thing however, because I did it kind of, I did it part time basically. Like I worked for my dad and I suppose one could say like I was an assistant for him, but I basically was a groom. And then I had, you know, my own training horses that he then gave me a lesson with on. So for the first couple summers after college, I'd get like five or six lessons a day, which was great on, you know, yeah, yeah, yeah.

43:31So I did that and then I did one winter in Ohio. It was horrible. It was so cold. And then after that, I went to Florida every winter and I was super poor. So I worked in restaurants and then I worked in restaurants and I was a working student for the bills. I rode for Marcel Vanderberg. Like I pretty much just worked, did whatever I could to make it work financially. And then yeah, yeah. And then when I was like 24, 25, I was a working student for a matter of rows and cramps. And then after that, I came back and then basically just had my own business again up until I moved to Maryland. Tell us a little bit about being here in Maryland. Yeah. So I was also cold. I know. I know. Yeah. This might be my last winter up there because this was miserable. And last winter was very unusual. This really was. You know that.

44:32Everyone told me that last winter. And I'm like, this is two winter's in a row. I don't know guys. But you know the first winter that I go south, it's going to be so mild. So in Maryland, it'll be mild. Do you know it's going to work like that? Yeah. So I moved to Maryland in 2020 to work for a breeder for Nancy Hollowesco at Croceded Orpharm. And I was there for three and a half, almost four years. And then I left there in 2024, almost I guess two years ago. Because I think it was like the end of February, early March. And now my husband works in Maryland. So I stayed. And then we bought a house in Annapolis because that was halfway between his job and my job. Even though it was very far away for both of us. So now I'm starting up my own business in Annapolis, basically. And I travel. So it's not really Annapolis.

45:32But. Yeah. So right now your business, more teaching, more training. It's probably half and half. I have a couple of training horses and then I have a couple of sail horses. And then I've got, I've got a couple of people that I teach like maybe once a week or so. And then I have a couple of like regular lesson people. Okay. So do you have a preference between the two with, you know, with the psychology background, you're set up perfectly to be an instructor after saying, yeah, I mean, I personally always like the riding and training more. But I will say after doing four years of being only trainer and not really having anyone else in the barn, I mean, I was riding like 14 or 15 horses a day for Nancy. And I had to work with student, you know, I had, it wasn't like I was on my own. But it did get a little without having anyone there gets a little monotonous and it gets

46:33a little lonely. So the left ends are nice and sometimes they're nice too because you see things when you're teaching, you know, you see someone doing something and your students are such a reflection of yourself that sometimes you watch them, but like especially my assistant, she's written with me for a while. And I like looking at her and I go, okay, you're doing this and you shouldn't be doing this. And I'm like, oh, you're doing that because I'm doing that. Okay. I got it. I got it better. So I think, yeah, I think sometimes the teaching can be insightful in your own riding and training too. And you're also a judge, right? Yes. Yes. A large arm. Large arm. And then I just got my small arm for the sport horse. Yeah. Fabulous. Okay. The judging also helps you as a rider and a trainer. Yes. Absolutely. And I really advocate that anybody, pretty much anybody who wants to ride dressage that

47:36they go through the L program, but especially if you are a competitor, if you are a teacher, if you are a coach, because you learned so much, you learned so much about why, why we're doing what we're doing, you know, there's a great session on biomechanics. And that you also learn, like, why the judges come to the score that they do, you know, and what the methodology is and, you know, what they're looking for. And then it's amazing because once you do that, and then you see some of these other trainers that are out there when they're coaching or they're getting their students feedback after their rides. I'm looking at them. I'm like, you have no idea why the judge gave them the score to you. You know, you have no idea why this person needs to ride the shoulder in like this. It just means you're so much better at it all around as a professional if you go through it. Yeah. It's such a great program. Yeah. Now, do you plan on continuing on with your judge's education?

48:37Do you see yourself that being like a later on in life plan that you'll do more judging? Yes. If only because I have invested so much time and money up to this point, it'd better keep going. It's a huge investment. Yeah. I mean, it's a kin to a master's program, if not a PhD, like, it's a huge, yeah. So one of your personal riding goals is you'd like to represent the US on the world stage. Yes. I would love that. I was there with my dad when he was, well, I was there the first season he spent in Europe. I guess if you call it a season in Germany at Klaus Balkenhalves, where I'm very proud of this. I'd have to brag for a moment. I had an opportunity to ride Goldstern with Klaus. Oh, my God. Yeah. Yeah. I know my favorite horse in the whole wide world. No, El, you have no idea.

49:38His horse was so difficult. For me, as like a 12, 13 year old, it was great, because I didn't really know what I was doing. But there are stories of some of our top riders who got off the horse after just walking him, refused to ride him and like, and more than one, this horse was so difficult. What made you so difficult? Because Balkenhal made him look like, you know, there were such harmony there. I know. Oh, it's so hard. Well, he, Goldie had a bond with Klaus. He would, Klaus would come into the arena and you would be, you'd be on him and you'd be at the far end and Klaus would come and pick up sugar and he'd call Goldie. And the horse, it doesn't matter what you were doing, the horse would stop and turn and go right to Klaus. Oh, nice. Right to him. Yeah. So I think the harmony was part of their bond, but he was just, I think he was very stiff. And he was very hard to get through, very difficult that way.

50:39And I'm sure if you had a hard hand, he probably just hardened against you. Like in retrospect, when I think about him, I think he just got really stiff if you were not soft with him. Interesting. I think about some of the upper level horses, the school masters that I rode, you know, when I knew less and was trying really hard and working for people. And I remember them all being kind of hard-mouthed, kind of stiff. And I think now, yeah, there was probably just me sucking really fast. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, with me. Right. Yeah. I know there's such kind of creatures. Yeah. So yeah. So it had to be amazing. It really was. Yeah. And so I groomed for my dad at some of the CDIs, some of the indoor shows. So, you know, I was there for a lot of that, and then I was at World Cup with him and Aachen and, you know, kind of seeing that, I thought that that would be really fun to do.

51:42So do you have an up and coming horse that you think is going to get you to the world stage? Are you looking? I'm looking. I have my own young horse, that Nancy bred. He is lovely. We will see if he has that kind of talent. He has some very nice attributes. He is getting a lot nicer as he gets older, but the impression was from some of the people I worked with that he might not be that quality, but the horse tries so incredibly hard. And he is so smart that I think he will be a very good horse. And he might not be that top, top quality, but I think he will be close or close enough that he will be a CDI horse, which is better than nothing. It was mine. Yeah. He is mine. I own him. I get to make the decisions. I get to pay the vet bills. Have you started him?

52:43Have you had him since he was young? I did. Yeah. So he was kind of cool. So he was born at Nancy's in 2020. I met him. He was born at the end in May. So I met him when he was about four or five months old. And he was in the field that was right in between the two barns. And so I say hi to him every morning. And he was with another one by the name of Dolly. My horse is developed. So Dolly and Dolly were out there. And then they were both by the Sally and Davos, who I rode for a number of years there. And sadly Davos passed away. And then they were out of Dolly was out of this mayor, French quarter, who was out of a mayor, Florence, you know, and then Deville was out of police, who was also out of Florence, you know, so the two were basically half brothers and cousins. And Dolly was kept as a stallion. Deville was, I got him when he was two.

53:43And then I got to start both of them. So I started both of them. And then I left when, no, I took Deville as a three year old to Davon. So I left in his four year old year. Dolly was then gelted. But the really neat thing is that Dolly and Deville both went to Davon as four year olds. Deville ended up reserve champion for the breeders series final in the material. And then he did very well in hand to the day before it counted. And then the day counted. If he was wild, I was flying a kite. It was very embarrassing. He did not show himself well at all. After he had done so well, so he ended up reserve champion for the four year old prospect. And then Dolly actually won the four year old prospect. Oh, nice. So yeah, that was really cool. And I rode both French quarter. I only rode her for a little bit because she went back to being a brood mayor. And then I rode police for a number of years. So I rode both parrots, well, all three, I guess.

54:45That's really cool. Yeah. So he is very special to me for those reasons. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and so the fact that it's hard to have that financial burden, the freedom of being able to make the decisions, I think it's priceless. I really do. Yeah. Yeah. So I am also, we did start looking into trying to put together a syndicate for, of course, a little more seriously for something team with team potential. And partly because you also can't have all your aches with one basket, you know, unfortunately, they're, you know, their horses and things happen. And so, yeah, so we did. So I have my own, but still, I'm still looking at that, makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I know. Maybe somebody will hear this and they will be like, hey, she sounds like a cool person. I want to talk to her. Yeah. Hopefully. Yeah.

55:45Yeah. Do you have a favorite horse, you know, like an all-time favorite horse? I saw that question on there and I was like, oh, that's hard. I have some, I don't have a favorite. They're all my favorite, which is kind of a running joke in our family because I think my dad always tells them they're the best or you're my favorite, but I tell them all you're my favorite. And then I tell them, don't tell me others, but there were a couple that released it out. So I rode the stallion peak out when I was a junior and I did juniors on him. And that horse and I had a very special bond. He was incredible. He was such a cool horse. So that one really stands out to me. And then my, my, my old, now older Grand Prix horse, Cervello, that, that horse is very much an ADHD squirrel. That were, I mean, he was my first Grand Prix horse. I had, you know, I had already ridden all the movements on the stallions at Temple. And then my horse, before Cervello Paramount, I had trained, I actually had him doing all

56:50of the Grand Prix and then unfortunately had an injury in, I haven't been in the field or in the stall. I can't remember. So he didn't really stay at that level. So then Cervello was the first one that I, I trained to Grand Prix and then competed at Grand Prix. And that horse is, is very special to me. And then there are two more, sorry. And then there was my second Grand Prix horse. The second Grand Prix horse was a horse by the name of Caprice, who is still around, Ashley Mall owns him. And she was very gracious and let me see him last year when I was in Florida. That horse was very quirky, borderline dangerous. He bucked me off twice and Cervello also gave me a concussion. He did buck me off once. And then after that, he didn't like losing people. So he became a very good schoolmaster because if somebody is on balance, he like, he behaves.

57:51But if they are balanced, he's wild. So yeah, Caprice, Caprice was quite a horse. He was super talented and looked like he was going to make a really nice Grand Prix horse. But he had a lot of baggage and then he had a call-ex surgery and he was just never, he was never really the same after the call-ex surgery, unfortunately, which is not, it's not the case for all of them. I know a lot of them still do very well. But he just, he kind of, the movement, he lost some of that. And then so Caprice was very special. The horse was such a, he was a hoot. And Caprice and Cervello together on the trailer were like, the two guys, I don't know if you guys ever saw or if anyone was seeing his saw, what's the movie? The one with Channing Tatum. Oh my gosh. Oh. Oh. No. So the one where he goes back to high school, that was like a take on the Johnny Depp. Yes. So cold. I know for this movie. 21 dress street. Yeah. Okay. So in 22 jump street, he goes back to college and he plays football and there's like,

58:56he has this bromance of anyone who has seen this. And it is like this jock bromance that's kind of like dumb and dumber. They are hilarious. That movie is so funny. And these two horses on the trailer were like that. Like one would start bouncing around and then the other one would bounce in unison. They were like, they were such handfuls. So yeah, those two are going to put it out for like, but I have this mayor on the trailer with them and the mayor would get so mad, so pissed at these two idiots. So yeah. So those two and then the last one that's really special to me was Davos, the stallion that Nancy bread who unfortunately has passed, who's my horse's sire. That horse was very special to me, very, very special. Yeah. So those are the horses. Tell us a little bit about the people who influenced you as a rider beside your folks. Well, probably Bill Warren and Bill McMillan, quite a bit because I worked for them for

1:00:01a couple of seasons. And then Metta Rosencrantz and with Metta, sometimes not so much as a rider, but maybe more as a teacher and as a, I suppose as a manager in a way, Metta used to work at Flinga and she taught the trainers. And as part of her program, she was adamant that those of us who worked for her, that we learned how to teach a lesson and how to structure it. And she had to teach her people, which a lot of times trainers will understandably because the clients don't want to ride sometimes with the assistance. But she, she had us do it and then, you know, she had us like some days, we would be responsible for setting the schedule and structuring the day. So we had to kind of learn how to do that. So she, she was very influential in that way. Yeah. And some of the things that I wanted you to do that too, because that's the case that

1:01:04you were saying that the young riders, they don't have that. Exactly. Yeah. And that's something that I then tried to take forward as a trainer and teach the people that work for me and say, you know, like, here's why I'm doing this, rather than just, oh, go do this, you know, go talk this, we're up this way. Like, I tried to really teach them every step of the way because she really did that. She was great about that. Yeah. I think having a system like that is much more in place in Europe that you don't get to hang your shingle. There's much more of the systematic learning, having to apprentice, having all of those the nutrition and the scheduling and the organization and the management. They see that because it's, it's a more time revered job over there. They see that as all part of it. Yeah. I think that's so important. Yeah. Absolutely. Well, it's very much treated like a trade there, you know, like a respectable job.

1:02:10You got married recently. Congratulations. Oh, thank you. Yes. Thank you. Yeah. And, and she managed Aviva to marry somebody with the same last name, which is, it tasted really interesting that I've ever heard. That's so funny. I was slightly horrified at first when I discovered we had the same last name, but now it was like, wait, that was actually really smart. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So does he ride? Is he in the worst business? I didn't have to change anything. Sorry. What was that Aviva? So does he ride? Is he into horses? What does he know? He, so he is a defense contractor for a little while there. He was army civilian, but now he's back to contracting. Okay. How did you meet? We met on Tinder. Okay. It's for you. I met on a blind, I met my husband on a blind date. That's fine. Yeah. No, it was perfect. Yeah. Very cool.

1:03:10Very cool. Well, any dreams or big plans that we should keep an eye on in the next year or so for you? I don't think so. I mean, kind of trying to keep going, building the business of a lot of judging assignments this year, which is great. Hopefully, I'm going to try to get my horse to the six-year-old championship. I took him as a four-year-old, but as a five-year-old, we had some growth spurts. I also had a wedding in the middle of qualified season. That may or may not have impacted it, but he did like, I feel like the five-year-old year is the worst because they're very softmork at that stage. The three, it's great. Life is new. They're wonderful. You take them out. And they're like, oh, cool. Four is a little bit like that. And then at five, they're like, oh, I'm strong. I have energy. This is fun. I know what I'm doing. You're like, buddy, you don't know.

1:04:11You really don't know. Yeah. Oh, yeah. We spent one show. I've never heard this horse call in their saddle. One show, he screamed the entire test. Yeah. Regions was a little wild. So five was interesting. Hopefully six will be a little more settled, but I kind of doubt it. So I mean, I'd like to get into the six-year-old. He's he's schooling everything. So we'll see. And he's like I said, he's starting to turn into a nice horse. Shelly Francis told me she would take him if I didn't want him. So I was like, oh, there you go. Yeah. I'm like, all right. I just do like him. Yeah. My dad said he's he's always right. They liked him. So yeah. And then I have some client horses. I think I'll be showing and hopefully they will be showing as well. Yeah. And that's about it. Slow and steady wins the race. Yeah. Oh, the other thing I am. The other thing I am doing, another program I would recommend. Like I'm just spending all of my money at this point.

1:05:13But I did the instructor or the professional development program, the old instructor certification. They renamed it. Yeah. They renamed it to the professional development. So I have that exam in March. So hopefully. Good luck. Yeah. And but that's another close. It is. Yeah. Yeah. Cool. Well, thank you for your time. It has been lovely getting to know you. And it's really. It's it's nice to hear. Yeah. People who enjoy both the ups and the downs of their horses because really that there are both in every single career with a horse. And we appreciate the honesty and the. Just the attitude you come at it with. Hey, if you if you don't laugh, you spend a lot of time crying. And that's not good for your health.

1:06:13And unfortunately, I'm sure like you guys, you've been around long enough, you see, you think you see everything that can possibly go wrong with them. Yeah, but there's always something new. And you're like, you really, I mean, like the way that sometimes, unfortunately, the way like sometimes they manage to actually kill themselves. You're like, really? That's how you did it. I have. But yeah, eventually you have to. You're going to have a heart attack or have like really high cholesterol. If you don't laugh, you have to. Especially if it's just that, you know, like I'm horse being silly and the scraping throughout his entire test. You can't take that too seriously because there are too many other things to take seriously. I was there. I was scribing for a judge once and something untoward happened. And the rider and her mother got really, really, really, really, really trousers in a twist. And we're screaming and yelling and quite hysterical.

1:07:15And it was a lot of drama. And at one point the judge looked at me and she says, you know, it's just a horse show. It's not brain surgery. Yeah. You know, and at the end of the day, they're just horses. Yeah. Exactly. I know that I think the fact that my husband does work in the defense industry and some ways keeps me very humble because I'm like, we're just riding happy little horses around. Hopefully happy little horses around and little circles. And this is a really nice thing. And, you know, you're over here worrying literally about life and death. Yeah. You know. So no matter what, I get a great 10 meter circle. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. No matter what I'm like, this is okay. You can't take it too seriously. You have to, too. You know, of course, you have to, because people spend, it costs a lot of money and time and, you know, horse welfare and all of that. But you do have to have a sense of humor, I think.

1:08:16Without a doubt. A great note to end on. It will be happy. It's not the right word. It will give people some confidence in themselves to hear that mishaps happen at all levels. So yeah, somebody's out there with their horse screaming the whole, through their whole training, love the test. Maybe they'll be like, it's happening no well, too. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Well, we really hope that the party goes off without a hitch and it's a wonderful surprise. Thank you. Yeah. Thank you so much for joining us now. Thank you guys for having me. Thank you.