Does the Tory party have a “problem with Muslims?”

This is a global player, original podcast.

Let's get into another episode of James O'Brien Daily now.

It's an hour of highlights every day from my LBC show,

where we deal with the stories that shift and mold our world the most.

I hope you enjoy it.

There's every possibility that you haven't heard of Nick Timothy before yesterday,

in which case, goodness me, do I envy you.

But you were certainly aware of some of his greatest hits.

He's the fellow that told Theresa May to call a general election

that she very nearly lost to Jeremy Corbyn,

and saw the majority with which she was governing,

decimated by the idiocy of the decision to call that election.

He was also a key part of that election campaign.

I think he was responsible for the Go Home Vans

that were one of the hallmarks of Theresa May's time at the home office.

I think the technical term is a bigoted idiot.

But of course, we live in an age where we live in the age of the bigoted idiot.

Bigoted idiots can become prime ministers.

At least two of the last four prime ministers were bigoted idiots.

Although, I mean, Boris Johnson's idiocy,

a little more nuanced and layered, perhaps, than Liz Trusses.

But the idea that bigoted idiots had no place on the front line of British politics

was under enormous strain at last year

and broke completely when Kimmy Bader not failed to fire Robert Generick

for being a bigoted idiot about brown faces on the streets of Birmingham,

making her probably the first and first Tory prime minister

since would Harold McMillan have sacked somebody for that?

Because Ted Heath did.

Ted Heath did sack Enoch Powell for being a bigoted idiot.

And again, Powell's idiocy is a very intelligent man in many ways.

His bigotry is not debatable,

but his idiocy, like Boris Johnson's,

is a little bit more nuanced than Nick Timothy's or Liz Trusses,

or indeed honest Bob Genericks.

They are more idiot.

Well, they are 52-48s in the case of a Powell or a Johnson,

perhaps the ratio is a little more complicated.

But Ted Heath did, John Major definitely would have,

the Margaret Thatcher would have done in a heartbeat.

I remember the King of England, King Charles,

sought much earlier in his life

to be described as the defender of all faiths,

as opposed to the defender of the faith.

And do you know, not for the first time,

you find yourself thinking that King Charles,

for all his myriad flaws and the ludicrous system

that delivers him the title that he currently enjoys,

he got quite a lot of stuff right, quite early.

He was a massive figure of mockery when I were a lad.

For a couple of reasons, he was supposed to talk to plants,

but if you look back upon,

or if you consider now the amount of attention

that we're paying to mental health

and the role that nature plays in improving our mental health,

he was ahead of his time.

And of course, on environmental issues in general,

he was ahead of his time on architecture.

He was probably ahead of his time.

You probably don't remember how much mockery

King Charles used to invite when he was a younger man.

Look, he did some very stupid things.

There was a telephone call between him

and his then mistress, Camilla Parker Bowles,

that is, as the kids would say, ultimate cringe.

But a lot of the things that he got ribbed for

or criticized for or teased for

have turned out to have been quite prescient.

And I wonder how many people even remember him coming out

and saying that he didn't want to be known

as the defender of the faith anymore.

He wanted to be known as the defender of all faiths

when he succeeded his mother and became King.

I, my history is not great on this period.

But I think that it was a title bestowed upon him by the Pope,

following the intercession of Thomas Moore

in an ecumenical matter that Henry VIII,

because he was a bigoted idiot.

And of course, a syphilite psychopath.

We're doing quite a lot of tongue twisters today.

Try saying bigoted idiot and syphilite psychopath.

Ten times very, very quickly.

I don't know who will appear behind you in the mirror,

but it won't be pretty.

But I think that Henry VIII, by dint of being a bigoted idiot,

wanted to hang on to the title.

Remind you of anybody?

There's at least a long read for the financial times

to be written comparing Henry VIII's to Donald Trump, isn't there?

I mean, well, maybe not.

I think that he wanted to hang on to the title.

It's kind of like the fee for peace prize.

The Pope gives you a big gong.

The Pope gives you a big title.

And lo and behold, you then decide

that you want to secede entirely from the Catholic church,

but you want to hang on to the title.

That's very Trumpian, right?

But I think Henry VIII hung on to the title defend it.

Fid days, it's on the coins.

It's on coins, that's how big a deal it is.

And it means defender of the faith.

And he decided a long time ago

that he wanted to be the defender of all faiths.

And I remember thinking at the time

that that should be obvious.

Should be obvious.

And of course, it isn't,

because today the bigoted idiot, Nick Timothy,

is facing calls for the sack,

which can't happen,

because Camille Badernot doesn't have the strength to sack him.

She demonstrated that with honest Bob Generic.

Imagine if she's had the guts to sack on his Bob Generic

for being a bigoted idiot,

before he went waltzing to the home of bigoted idiots

and joined Nigel Farage's reform, but someone's done it.

Someone's done it on the Yorkshire Bylines website.

The remarkable parallels between King Henry VIII

and Donald Trump.

Do you know what?

That's what I call the Clive Bullification of ideas.

Every time I was talking,

I was giving Henry Riley some fatherly advice.

Earlier today, Henry will be with us at 1145

with the latest round of Riley's reform roundout.

I was giving him some fatherly advice.

Grasshopper, I said to him.

What you have to remember is

every time we think we've had a good idea,

because someone reminded me yesterday,

we had a jingle competition,

I think for Mystery Hour originally,

or certainly for one of the long forgotten features

that used to appear on this program,

and loads of people entered with their own jingles.

And Henry and I have been having a wonderful time listening

to the people who are trying to come up

with a jingle for Riley's reform roundout,

but of course it's not an original idea.

Henry didn't know this.

I've saying to him that listen, it's great fun,

but every time you think you've had a good idea,

as the hot new talent in town, Henry,

you will have ideas that you think are brilliant,

and they are brilliant,

and you will think they are original,

but Clive Bull would have done it 50 years ago.

That's a little unfair on Clive,

and indeed the longevity of his ball casting career,

or Nick Abbott's probably doing it now.

Every truly funny or original idea you have

as a radio presenter on LBC is immediately undermined

by the discovery that Nick Abbott and Clive Bull

were doing it decades ago.

But I digress, that's quite an easy segue there

from Henry VIII and Donald Trump

to Nick Abbott and Clive Bull.

The problem I've got with this

is I think it's really, really serious.

So when I grew up, I went to a prep school,

which is a kind of posh word for a school

that sits between primary and middle

for normal people, or primary and comprehensive.

Seven to 13, a very Catholic prep school

with a capital C.

We had mass all the time, it felt like I had to be fair.

At the school I went to next was even more religious

than the one I went to from seven to 13,

but the school I went to in Worcestershire,

and they're the village of Chattersley Corbett,

which sounds like a sort of detective, doesn't it?

Sounds like after Agatha Christie

have finished with Miss Marple and Hercule Pyro,

she embarked upon the Chronicles of Chattersley Corbett.

Harvington Hall is very much in the ombarons of my prep school.

We used to walk there to church every Sunday.

You'd see this phalanx of boys in maroon blazers

and maroon caps and short trousers

walking through the country lanes to church

and an act of domination, I think,

if you were Nick Timothy, and no girls, of course,

because it was an all-boys school.

So the kind of thing that strikes terror

into Nick Timothy's heart, but don't worry,

because we were white.

Well, not all of us, actually, but we were mostly white.

So it would have been okay.

Nick Timothy wouldn't have felt threatened

or indeed dominated by the sight

of all of these school boys marching

through the lanes of Worcestershire

in the early 1980s to attend mass in Harvington,

because St Mary's Harvington is the church

next to Harvington Hall.

And Harvington Hall is not only a magnificent destination,

a wonderful place to visit,

but it's also the home of the finest collection

of priestholes in the country.

I think his name might have been Gibbons.

Someone else will tell me.

I know St John Wall was one of the most famous priests

to take advantage of the priestholes in Harvington Hall,

but I think they're Carpenters.

The famous Catholic carpenter,

who toured some of the great homes still inhabited by Catholics,

even though Queen Elizabeth had made Catholic worship illegal,

he would carve out, he would create

these extraordinary hiding places in Catholic homes.

And Harvington Hall remains the finest example

of surviving priestholes.

And bizarrely, a lovely bloke who works there

is very good on social media.

And yesterday, by complete coincidence,

he put up a film of himself in,

why am I'm afraid going to have to describe to you?

I was my all-time favorite priesthole.

Give me a ring now and tell me what your favorite priesthole is.

On O34560, who says we don't redefine the boundaries

of phone and radio, Keith?

What's your favorite priesthole?

O3456060973.

I think Johnny Vaughn might have spotted

the Henry VIII Trump parallels as well on his rather splendid

Legends podcast, but anyway, like I said,

there's no such thing as an original idea.

Anymore, I think St. Augustine was probably

the last person to have one.

And what they did on the Facebook page of Harvington

Hall yesterday was explore my favorite priesthole.

It would have involved, in case you care about such things,

removing a large chunk of library that was covered in books

and then kicking a beam, like a wooden beam in the wall.

You kick the beam and it's on a hinge and it swings round.

It's like something out of danger mouse.

It swings round and creates an opening

into which the priest would crawl.

And then their beam would go back into place

and they plaster it back as well often

and then put the shelves back up and then put the books back up.

So, and the priest would stay in there sometimes for days.

They would be food and drink in there.

And the architecture of the building was such

that you wouldn't know that there was a gap

because the staircase had been...

As loads of them, there's one upper chimney,

there's one under our staircases,

one down a toilet, but my favorite is that one,

the one in the old library room.

Because of the swinging beam,

when you're like 8, 9, 10 years old,

that's the magical thing.

It's James Bondi, right?

And then you have a lesson

where the history or religious instruction

in which it is explained to you that people like you

had to hide in those holes

because otherwise they'd have been burnt to death at the stake

for praying.

And you as a child respond to that by saying pardon,

sorry what pardon.

You would...

I mean, you weren't appreached,

but if Father Tucker was the priest,

who would come to the school every week

to do Mass on Fridays after Fishing Chip lunch.

And Father Tucker, a few hundred years previously,

would have been required to hide

from Queen Elizabeth's troops

because by practicing his faith,

even in private, of course,

not just in a public space, but even in private,

he was committing an act punishable by death.

So that's why for me this morning,

there's a line from Harvington Hall and St John Wall

right through to King Charles,

talking about being defender of all faiths

and laterally to the bigoted idiot, Nick Timothy,

who posted on social media that Muslims shouldn't be allowed

to pray in Trafalgar Square

because he makes him feel dominated.

I'm quite nostalgic for the days

when Tory MPs would pay fortunes in Soho to get dominated

and then try desperately to keep it secret

and hope that it wasn't going to appear

in the news of the world anytime soon.

I don't know what Nick Timothy's private life is like,

but his public life is bloody disgusting.

So here he is, condemning prayer.

Literally condemning prayer.

Literally saying that people gathering

for an iftar event to which everybody was welcome

is an act of domination.

There were 20 open iftar meals across the country this year.

United by the theme of hope,

the irony is absolutely heartbreaking, isn't it?

Organized by the Ramadan tent project at a time

when Muslims in this country are facing more hatred

and abuse than ever before.

And Nick Timothy, a conservative MP,

promoted to shadow justice secretary by Kermie Badernauk

has decided that this is both dominating

and should be forbidden.

Mass-richal prayer in public places is an act of domination.

He didn't say the last time the Pope visited this country.

Is the coronation an act of mass-richal prayer

in a public place?

It is, isn't it?

Westminster Abbey is a public place.

Admittedly, you and me were unlikely to get in

on the day that the king got crowned,

but there was definitely mass-richal prayer going on.

We didn't have a problem with that.

Massive procession as well, leading to it as well,

through a public place.

And of course, the divine rights of kings

doesn't really get much of a showing these days,

but it underpins the history of monarchy.

And the serial criminal, Stephen Jaxley-Lennon,

is understandably delighted about it,

because he has been fermenting hatred against all Muslims,

while pretending to care about the victims of sex abuse

for decades now.

It feels like decade.

For years, he jumped onto the bandwagon a little late,

because of course, many of us were covering

the grooming gang scandal in the north of England.

As soon as it appeared in 2011,

thanks to the work of a rather splendid times journalist.

But on Twitter, hating Muslims is a very lucrative grift

on Twitter, posting lies and exaggerations

and embellishments about Muslim people

is a very lucrative grift.

And some members of Kemi-Badenock's universe

inhabit Twitter almost exclusively.

So if you are utterly confused about why a man

who was in the conservative movement

when Said of Arsi was deputy chair of the party

has decided to attack Muslims for having the audacity

to pray in public.

If you're confused about that, then you, like me,

are not spending much time on Twitter,

or in my case, these days, any.

But I get the occasional postcard that demonstrates

just what Elon Musk has done to it.

There are the good documentary on the BBC.

Earlier this week, presented by Mariana Springy,

Elon Musk, I think the great way to understand it

is to say freedom of speech, but not freedom of reach.

So Elon Musk has very, very deliberately

gained the algorithms to turn Twitter into a place

where hatred is fomented, encouraged, and crucially rewarded.

And people like Nick Timothy think that that's reality.

They think that this is a world where attacking Muslims

for having the audacity to say some prayers in a public space

that is, in no particular order, also used by Christians, Jews,

Sikhs, and Hindus to celebrate or mark

specific religious festivals.

Nick Timothy thinks that it is a good political move

to attack Muslims for praying.

And I think the question that I want to ask you today

is, and I've done this a bit lately, and it worries me slightly.

I don't want to really have a debate about this

because it is just disgusting.

It is objectively disgusting.

Freedom of religion is an absolutely emblematic value

of our country and our society.

And if you grew up Catholic in the knowledge,

and remember that Protestants, when Elizabeth's sister Mary

was on the throne, the previous reign, Protestants

would have been burnt at the stake for the same crime

of being the wrong kind of Christian.

And if you grew up acutely conscious of that,

then you will not need me to tell you that freedom of religion

is actually one of the things you can chalk up as a British value.

Hard one and hard four, blood, spilt, and bodies

burned in pursuit of it, but we have it.

The history of Jewish people in this country

is considerably prouder than many other European countries.

And until relatively recently, most of my Muslim friends

and colleagues would tell me that until September the 11th,

the Muslim experience in this country was largely positive.

Well, the Muslim experience was they would still

be, have the P-word shouted at them in the street,

regardless of whether they came from that part

of the subcontinent or not, but it wasn't

their religion that people were pretending to hate

as an excuse for hating their ethnicity

in the 1970s, 80s, 90s people were much more open,

bigger, it's about hating the ethnicity.

But people like Nick Timothy can pretend

that that's not what motivates them.

They can pretend that they're motivated instead.

They are terrified instead.

They are terrorized instead by prayer, by actual prayer,

prayers, professions of faith.

So I don't think, and no other people will debate it.

And I understand why.

And I'm not claiming I'm right and they're wrong.

But I can't abide the idea of debating this.

It would be like debating whether or not it was right

to burn Catholics during their affirmation.

It would be like debating whether or not it was right

to force people to hide in Harvington Hall from soldiers

who would kill them if they found them in possession

of a chalice or the wrong sort of crucifix.

Freedom of religion is so intrinsic to what I consider

to be human values, but British values.

And listen, my relationship with religion is complicated.

And nowhere near what it was when I was a little kid

in short trails was traipsing through the lanes of Worcestershire

in order to attend Mass, it sometimes felt like 11 times a week.

I don't even know that it is an unalloyed force

for good in the world.

I think that's a very hard position to defend.

But if it exists, it exists in plurality.

If it exists, it exists in equality.

You can talk about this being a Christian country,

although to be fair, the only people

that I hear doing that these days are people

who have clearly never been, been nearer by,

but except the one that was in the drawer of the hotel,

Czech, the Gideon's one, in the drawer of the chest

that they were sleeping next to last time they stayed in a hotel.

So I don't want to debate it.

I just want to tell me how it makes you feel.

03456060973.

The shadow justice secretary in the conservative party,

which relatively recently had said,

of R.C. Baroness R.C. as its co-chair,

the shadow justice secretary has stated

that Muslims and Muslims only should not

be allowed to pray into a Fagus square.

Everyone else is fine, Diwali, Hanukkah.

The Passion of the Christ is on a Easter, by the way.

It's a massive thing, about 100 people in it.

It runs from 9 o'clock in the morning to 7 o'clock in the evening,

and they will be enacting the final day of Christ's life.

It's about a magical moment, incredible theatrical

moment.

And so I just want to know how, as a patriotic,

whether you're Godfaring or not, whether you're a Christian,

a Muslim, a Jew, a Zoroastrian, a Catholic, a Protestant,

or I don't know, a Harry Krishna,

to have a prominent politician, a shadow justice secretary,

attacking people for praying,

and seeking to prohibit prayer in the United Kingdom in 2026.

How does it make you feel?

And of course, a Sikh festival as well,

is celebrated in Fagus square every year as well.

How does it make you feel?

Because it makes me feel sick, sick to my stomach,

and also very, very sad.

How does it make you feel?

And if you're a Muslim and you're having to explain some

of this to your children, I'd like to hear

where you are this morning as well.

Heading for a little break now, after that,

I'll try and shut up for a bit while you talk.

CREDITS

Malik's in Leicester, Malik, what's going on?

Hi, good morning, Brian.

Hello.

To you and to your listener and happy E to you and to your listeners

and to your daughter.

Thank you.

OK.

My thing is that I immigrated to this country 25 years ago,

and I'll call myself a proud British citizen.

Yes.

After this or with these things that are coming on constantly

from our politicians, from the news media and everything,

can I tell my children to be proud citizens of this country?

No, be a member of society, be a productive member

of this society, and you will not face any discrimination.

You will not be put under a microscope.

You will not be judged because of your belief,

even though you have not done anything wrong.

But because you believe in something,

for that, you will be prosecuted.

You will be persecuted.

Well, not prosecuted yet, but, you know,

Nick Timothy's the Justice Secretary,

and he wants to outlaw praying.

So if you were to pray, peacefully,

sorry, thank you, Brian.

Shadow just, do you know why I'm calling you Brian, Malik?

I don't know.

Because you call me Brian, and my name's actually James.

But that's fine.

I do apologize.

Absolutely fine.

We are a very Catholic community with a small C on this program,

and you can call me what you want.

You can call me out.

I'm sorry, I do apologize.

Don't be silly, I'm only teasing you.

But you're right, he is the Shadow Justice Secretary,

and he is essentially calling for people like you

to be banned from praying in a public place.

And well, we can have a little bit of fun together.

I don't feel the fear that I think you feel

when these things happen.

Me, as a Muslim, constantly find myself

between a rock and a hard place.

I don't know what to say and how to say it

in order to make a balance.

That's a constant struggle for me at the moment.

I don't want my children to go through this.

What does he want you to do?

Does he, I think he wants you to hide?

Does he want you to convert?

I mean, the shocking thing is,

the leader of that party did not even see a word against it,

not condemning it, stacking him alone.

She did not even bother to say something that,

okay, we are living in an equal society,

we shouldn't be saying this.

Not even that remark.

I don't think she can, I mean, morally she can,

but politically, her calculation will be that she can't,

because her party is now competing

with Nigel Farrag's party on who can hate Muslims the most.

No, but this is one thing from her background.

She's coming from a particular background,

and I'm sure she had her own struggles in this country

when she was brought up.

I don't know, but I have my full sympathy with her,

but coming from that background, not seeing a word.

You know what big a tree feels like?

I don't know what Cammy Badenock struggles were growing up.

I know that she did very badly in her A levels,

but that was all her teachers fault.

Absolutely nothing to do with her.

Malik, what do you say to your children?

At the moment, I'm telling them, work hard,

so that you be successful,

and you can become a productive number of the society,

and you don't have to depend on anyone,

you don't have to rely on anyone, you become your man.

And with regards to your shared religion?

I teach them the value of my faith.

I believe in it, and that's what I pass it on to them.

And that used to be something that would have been encouraged.

And I would remind you, as you feel that society is curdling

in the face of people like you, that the king,

and regardless of what your views on royalty,

are the king wants to be the defender of all faiths.

Which means that he, I mean, he won't,

because of protocol and etiquette and tradition,

but I don't think you need to be a genius to work out

what he would think of the bigoted idiot, Nick Timothy.

I am the defender of all faiths,

but we have a shadow justice secretary

that thinks only some of them should be allowed to pray in public.

And it's the thickness of these people

that really winds me up,

because they live in this world of think tanks,

and daily telegraph editorial meetings,

and conservative echo chambers,

and they can persuade themselves at their clever.

They're just so mediocre, the intellects of burst balloons,

but if you only ever encounter people

who are similarly bereft of intelligence

and an original thought,

you can persuade yourself that you're a genius.

Because the self-regard you need to have to be Nick Timothy,

and the face of so much evidence

that you're a bigoted idiot, is off the bloody charts.

In that way, he's a very bad anarchy and politician, isn't he?

I'm not an expert in every faith or every religion,

but I know a lot about Catholicism, and I don't laugh,

but I have an A level in a comparative religion,

and the only truly holy people I have ever known

have had one thing in common.

And by holy, I don't just mean leaders and clerics,

but people who are sincere in their faith,

as I think Malik was the first caller,

the only thing that they all have in common is compassion.

Genuinely holy people,

and there are loads of compassion

that people who don't believe in God,

don't think I'm going down that particular avenue,

but the one thing that they have in common is compassion.

Not tolerance.

Tolerance is a mean word, a mean word,

a merely male of a tolerant.

I don't tolerate you.

I feel compassion for you.

And if you want to pray for a better world,

which is generally what most prayers are designed to do

in various way, shapes and forms,

then on what possible planet would I be opposed to you

or threatened by you or dominated by you?

Well, on planet bigoted idiot.

And Nick Timothy has taken advantage of the fact

that the conservatives are currently led by the weakest leader.

They've had in generations.

She couldn't sack on his Bob Generic

for being a bigoted idiot.

And she can't sack Nick Timothy for being a bigoted idiot

because her party is currently competing with

the bigoted idiots in Nigel Farragist party

to see who can be most vile,

most obnoxious and most disgusting

towards our Muslim neighbors.

And this is a moment.

Make no mistake because what they've done is move

from pretend well, from pretending

that they had a problem with Islam in general

because of the hideous conduct of some people

who identify as Muslim, most obviously

in the context of the grooming gangs,

but you find a crime committed

by fact you don't even need to be a Muslim cat, do you?

In the context of the Southport murders,

you can just lie that someone is a Muslim and start riots.

And he was delighted, by the way,

one of the instigators of those riots,

absolutely delighted to see a conservative politician

joining him on the bigoted idiot bench.

But Nick Timothy here is, his mask has slipped.

Oh God, I've made it clear I hate all Muslims,

not just the ones that commit crimes.

Oh, God, I hate them all.

Well, no, I don't hate them.

I don't hate them.

I just don't think they should be allowed to pray

in public in the way that Christians are and Jews are

and Hindus are and Sikhs are and Zoroastrians are

and Buddhists are and Harry Christian are.

I God knows what he's going to do

when he sees the bloats in orange robes marching up

and down Oxford Street tinkling their symbols

and chanting Harry Krishna.

Is that an act of dominance?

Does that dominate him?

That's a public place.

And if the Pope were to visit this,

this benighted island and hold a massive mass

like he did when I was a kid in Coventry,

is that going to be a problem as well?

Is that going to be an act of domination?

Let me read you something from an idiot.

This is an idiot called Steve.

Christians have been arrested for praying in the streets,

completely crazy how you are trying to say

that Muslims in this age are the only ones

religiously persecuted, not true.

Three things, idiot Steve.

Number one, I haven't said that Muslims

are the only people in this age religiously persecuted.

People are religiously persecuted all around the world

but it shouldn't happen here.

Number two, Christians have not been arrested

for praying in the streets in this country.

And number three, in a great exercise of wasting my breath

because bigoted idiots like you don't care about facts,

the stories that I am 99.9% certain you are referring to

involve people breaching safe zones outside abortion clinics.

So what you are talking about here

are legally imposed areas in which nobody

is allowed to undertake actions that demonstrate

either support for or opposition to abortion.

They are called safe zones.

And if you undertake any activity within those zones,

then you are breaching a safe zone

and you will be arrested for breaching a safe zone.

You will not be arrested for praying,

you will be arrested for breaching a safe zone

outside abortion clinics.

And you will not be arrested for breaching a safe zone

until you have been given repeated opportunities to move on

and go and do whatever it is you are doing

somewhere not in the safe zone.

So if I'm there with a little banner saying abortion is great,

abortion is a human rights, I will be asked to move on.

If you're there either praying or pretending to pray

about the based upon the belief that abortion is wrong,

you will be asked to move on.

And if I refuse, I'll be arrested.

And if you refuse, you'll be arrested.

So you are not going to get arrested for praying

in a public place, you're going to get arrested

for breaching a safe zone.

But, Steve, I'm wasting my breath

because you're a bigoted idiot.

And the definition of bigotry means

that you can't change the idiotic opinion

that you hold because you're a bigot.

But at least I can temporarily rescue you

from being a massive racist liar as well.

Because that, of course, is what Twitter is now full of

and that is the constituency that Nick Timothy

is appealing to.

Short break in coming, when we get back

we will continue discussing the biggest news stories

of the day.

Paul's in Cambridge, Paul, what would you like to say?

Oh, Morning James.

I'm a bit nervous, first time call us.

So, Pax, Vibeska, brother, Pax, Vibeska.

He's my local MP, so it's million times with me.

And I'm actually no need to get about it

until I listen to you this morning.

Well, I don't know.

I'm not going to apologize because it's a big story

and it's an important moment.

But my goodness me, you went from Matt Hancock

to Nick Timothy.

You must have been a bigotry.

You went from Matt Hancock to Nick Timothy.

You must have done some bad things in a previous life, Paul.

I did, and certainly when it's down the road

you've got James cleverly and then pretty to tell as well.

So, it's really difficult for me

because I moved from a big city a few years ago

to a real soundly new market.

And thinking of things will be great

and about a lovely, you know,

nice time in the country.

Yes.

You've got more bigots there potentially

in surrounding villages than you would do

in some of the bigger towns.

So, it's just really been difficult to speak freely

with people that you know don't agree with you.

So, I can imagine.

I can imagine.

And I'd like Nick Timothy.

They operate on the principle that everybody does agree with them

because they spend all their lives either in communities

like the one you describe,

or in Nick Timothy's case,

because he obviously lives and works in London.

He spends his entire life on Twitter.

He does, he does.

The other thing is, it's just really dispiriting

when you go to vote each time

because you're in a minority,

whether I vote for Greens or Nibbles

in the Liberal Democrats in the past.

And it's just, I know that it's never going to change

around there.

Why does this incident,

the travails of rural Cambridge are notwithstanding?

Why does this incident affect you personally?

Why does this incident excite the feelings

that you're describing inside you?

Because I know people some different ethnic backgrounds

from people I've worked with in the past

and I know how this will be making them feel.

So, it's just, and it's again,

that I'm not talking about you.

It's the same with the small votes.

So, we're not talking about you over there

or my next or neighbor is them,

like you said in the past.

And it's always...

Yeah, but these are moments, aren't they,

on the path towards the truth,

which is it is you.

It's almost limbs.

That shouldn't be allowed to pray.

Because, you know, he would once have cloaked himself

in the claims that, oh, no, I'm just cross with the extremists

or I just have a problem with the criminals

or the people who are using their faith

as an excuse for doing things that are unacceptable

or undesirable.

But this is literally just praying.

This is praying in a public place that is also prayed in

by Christians at Easter.

And we put a bloody great Christmas tree up every December.

It's prayed in by Sikhs.

It's prayed in by Hindus.

It's prayed in by Jews.

And you know who goes to all of those ceremonies?

Do you know who attends every single one?

The Mary London Sadiq can't.

Every single one of them.

But it's this one that Nick Timothy's got a problem with.

Asmar is embarking side.

Asmar, what would you like to say?

Hiya.

Yeah, I mean, I can just echo the double standards

of it all, basically.

But I think as a British Muslim,

this is my home.

I don't have any other home.

I have three on children.

I would just have this constant anxiety.

And I just worry about my children's future in the face of this.

It feels like a systematic due humanisation of a community.

And it might be like, you know, I'm worried about it.

And the algorithms are just throwing all of this

like hatred towards me.

And you know, my son's doing a GCSE this year.

You know, I'm trying to, you know, I've still got this second

generation immigrant mentality.

If you work hard and all pay off,

but I actually feel hopeless because it.

Yeah, because I just feel like everything stacked against him.

People like Nick Timothy are never going to give him a break.

And that's fine.

When it's idiots like Tommy Robinson coming out with this person

and this bill.

But when it's the shadow justice secretary in the party of Syed Avasi

or John Major or Orri Stewart,

then it feels really ugly and horrible.

I think but also if we've always had people like that,

you know, my dad remembers, you know,

the rivers of blood speech and, you know,

for which he no pal got sacked by Ted Heath.

Yeah.

I think it's important to remember that,

because Camille Badernot,

if she has a conscience,

it should be curdling this morning.

Yeah.

But I think what worries me is, you know,

when I, when I look at these articles and I look at comments,

it feels like, you know, every day people are sort of riding on it

because the media is just constantly pushing this narrative.

I mean, just recent report that came out about the disproportionate amount of, like,

negative press that wasn't scared.

It's like, you know, we're not talking about it more.

But when Islamophobia was re, you know,

described this, people are almost like saying,

well, why are we getting protection?

Like, we're not allowed to talk about why it's become more difficult for us

as the community.

And I think that's what's just,

it just seems really sinister and it's just really worrying.

I think what I would really love to just listen to all the listeners

and everyone out there.

Forget about everything you read about this, this really,

a person that you don't know in the media.

Look around you.

Look at the people you work with.

Look at your neighbors.

A lot of people probably had,

if thought, um,

plastic delivered from their neighbors.

Um, you know,

and I've done it down my road.

We've got a great sense of curiosity where we are.

Um, just think about the people that you know.

I'm not the people that you don't know,

because nothing will happen in Trafalgar Square.

There was no like, um,

there was no trouble.

People, you know,

it was longer arrested.

It was a peaceful thing that a lot of people got invited to.

And then I saw a radio interviewer.

I think it was talk radio.

And he was just saying,

nothing happened,

but do you not think it was an act of regression?

What part of it was an actor?

It was like trying to put words in the person's mouth

and sew the seeds out there.

I didn't know.

I mean,

just to be not to trivialize the point that you made.

I didn't know they were still going.

Actually, I thought I thought they felt a part after Captain Concrete got his marching orders.

But that is how it works, sadly.

You know, much, much of the media is dedicated to causing division and to inciting hatred.

And I suppose that answers my next question,

which was going to be,

what do you think Nick Timothy is playing at?

But he is appealing to the kind of people who have been radicalized by right wing media.

He is appealing to the kind of people who have been persuaded that people like you are a threat or a danger.

What do you think he's scared of?

You know what? I think it's a popular thing.

I think it's just become,

along with immigrants in general and people on boats and Muslims,

I think it's just something that they feel like there's a wave that we can ride on

and act out like the voice of the people.

And this is what the people want, sort of thing.

And I think we're living in an age where if you put something out in the ether

and even if it's not true,

the truth still has no weight because it's out there already.

And it's just been perpetuated.

And the effort that they used to have to put in to pretending that they weren't racist

is becoming smaller and smaller and smaller.

So honest Bob Jennerick can come out and complain about all the brown face faces like yours.

I presume, Asma.

Yeah.

It's got nothing to do with your religion.

It's got nothing to do with your behavior, your background, your character,

your contribution, your levels of integration.

She hates seeing brown and black faces on her television screen.

And on his Bob Jennerick hates seeing them on the streets of Birmingham.

And Nick Timothy hates seeing them in Trafalgar Square.

But he thinks he still has to pretend that it's a black face.

And then he says,

And then the death lighting where they're like, well, it's not racism.

If you're like a pretty potato or the use of, you know, your right sort of brown.

But as I'm walking down the street, how do you know if I'm a teacher or a doctor

or you know, I've never lived off the welfare of my parents.

I'm not going to be a doctor.

I'm not going to be a doctor.

I'm going to be a doctor, I'm not going to be a doctor.

I'm not going to be a doctor or a doctor.

I'm not going to be a doctor.

I'm not going to be a doctor or a doctor.

You know, I've never lived off the welfare state and I have my own house.

And you know, how do you know these things about the person?

Because that is my donor graph, the age group that I am who grew up in countless states,

who have now gone up social mobility wise, moved out trying to have a good life

for themselves, and they're children, but how do you know that?

You don't. That you don't.

And that is how it works. It's the other ring.

I don't mean it's an old parallel to draw, but I think you'll appreciate it.

it immediately after Brexit and people started ringing me to tell me that they were a foreign

born residence of this country whose own family members had voted to get rid of immigrants

or to reduce immigration and they would all be told the same thing by their mother-in-law

or their brother-in-law. I don't mean you. I don't mean you. And what people like you help

my other listeners understand is that that distinction is meaningless when you're on the

wrong end of it because it does mean you. When he talks about you can't pray in Trafalgar Square,

he means you because he's not talking about me. If I go down at Easter to attend the

Passion of the Christ which looks like a wonderful day out to which just like if everybody is

welcome, he's not talking about me not being allowed to pray in Trafalgar Square, he's talking

about you. All of you. And that is I think the really poisonous thing about the latest contribution

to public life from the man who brought you the Go-Home fans to resume his disastrous decision

to call an early general election. And now the prohibition or the call for the prohibition of prayer

in a country where the actual king styles himself as the defender of all faiths.

I think you can tell, can't you, after all the years that we've spent together when my

my heckles are up when you know I get across about quite a lot of things not as

cross as I used to do but disgust and fear. Not fear in the in the sense of being frightened

of for myself but a fear of what society is becoming as a consequence of putting people like

nectimacy in positions of prominence and power. And it's no coincidence that his background is in

research groups or think tanks and he gets rewarded for being a disaster in Downing Street,

hounded out by the Conservative Party membership. Just like Boris Johnson was hounded out by the

Conservative Parliamentary Party, one of the men's up with a daily telegraph column, one of the

men's up with a daily mail column. It's not a coincidence and the slow pushing of boundaries,

the boundaries of common decency into a place of common indecency. And nectimacy today assumes

the mantle from honest Bob Generic of being the Tories totem pole of common indecency

by calling for prayer to be prohibited for one faith group in one public space or presumably

all public spaces. And of course you don't need to remind you that the direction of traffic on

the other side of the Atlantic presiders with an indication of where this kind of bigotry can

lead. Simon Marx is a Washington correspondent and he joins me now. First day in a long time

that I haven't been talking about the war in Iran at the top of the show, but of course

developments have been unfolding nonetheless, including one involving the inimitable Tulsi

Gabbard Simon. Yes, absolutely James and I should just say good evening from Beijing,

which is where I find myself at the moment. I've been spending a few days here, which is why

I've not been around. I can tell you while I'm not here in an official reporting capacity,

I can tell you that the Chinese are absolutely stunned by what has been taking place. And as you

know, President Trump, of course, has decided that he's not coming here in a couple of weeks time

for a meeting with President Xi Jinping, but there has been scoffing on Chinese social media

at this notion that China should be helping the US get the Strait of Hormuz reopened

with one Chinese blogger saying that the request was so absurd, President Trump might as well

invite Iranian warships to escort US vessels. And one of the Chinese communist newspapers saying

on Sunday asking, is this really about sharing responsibility? Or is it about sharing the risk

of a war that Washington started and can't finish? Well, responsibility was really being a

shoot yesterday on Capitol Hill where the Director of National Intelligence Tulsi Gabbard

was testifying and she found herself engaged in some very fiery exchanges with Democrats on the

committee. She began by saying that, yes, indeed, the intelligence community in the United States

had assessed that Iran's nuclear capability had, as President Trump claimed last summer,

been completely obliterated in Operation Midnight Hammer, that joint US and Israeli effort to

use bunker-busting bombs to destroy Iran's nuclear capability. So Senator John Ossoff of Georgia

decided to press Tulsi Gabbard, and again, she is President Trump's Director of National Intelligence

who had said at the beginning of the hearing that she operated independently. Her job was to

provide independent and impartial advice to the President. She was pressed by John Ossoff of Georgia

about one very central question. Was it the assessment of the intelligence community that there

was an imminent nuclear threat posed by the Iranian regime? The intelligence community assessed that

Iran maintained the intention to rebuild and to continue to grow their nuclear enrichment capability.

Was it the assessment of the intelligence community that there was a, quote, imminent nuclear threat

posed by the Iranian regime? Yes or no? Senator, the only person who can determine what

is and is not an imminent threat is the President. False, this is the worldwide, this is the worldwide

threat hearing where you present to Congress, national intelligence, timely objective and independent

of political considerations. Was it the intelligence community's assessment that there was a, quote,

imminent nuclear threat posed by the Iranian regime? Yes or no? It is not the intelligence community's

responsibility to determine what is and is not an imminent threat. Okay. Here's the problem.

No, it is precisely your responsibility. Try as they might. The Democrats could not get her to say

that she believed or the intelligence community believed that there was any kind of imminent

national security threat to the United States posed by either Iran's nuclear capability or its

ballistic missiles. And she kept insisting it's only the President who gets to make that decision.

And of course, we all know that Tulsi Gabbard, like Joe Kent, the counterterrorism director

who resigned earlier in the week from Donald Trump's government, is not in favor of US

military intervention of Iran. In Iran, she bought the President's promise that he was going to

avoid getting the American military entangled in far off forever conflicts. And she just can't

bring herself quite to go as far as Joe Kent and quit the government. But equally, she's not

capable of sharing the President's claim that Iran posed an imminent national security threat.

And the idea that she's reduced to claiming that it's not the intelligence community's

responsibility to provide intelligence is extraordinary, isn't it? Well, ludicrous because,

of course, that is exactly their job. But no more ludicrous than the announcement by President

Trump when he heard about Joe Kent's resignation, that he always thought Joe Kent was weak on

security. To which the only question can possibly be, well, if you always thought he was weak on

security, why on earth did you appoint him the director of counterterrorism in your government?

But of course, that's not a question that he was asked in the White House the other day.

No, of course, it isn't. And we all know why. I mean, oddly, I've asked you this question

rhetorically quite a few times, but cracks are appearing over this of all things. Cracks are

appearing in quite high up in the administration. You mentioned the resignation of the counterterrorism

chief, the humiliation of the intelligence chief. And of course, the increasingly erratic way in

which Trump is describing events, for example, and I don't know whether you've picked up on this

yet given that you're in China and the timescales and things. When I opened my new paper this morning,

because I'm still quite analog, I was reading reports that Israel had made America aware of their

plans to bomb the latest Iranian oil depot. And then by the time I came on air, I was reading reports

that, well, thanks to Donald Trump's activities on social media that they knew nothing about it.

Yeah, it's a complete 180 on what we were hearing just a few hours ago from administration officials

who were briefing reporters. And they said that, yes, indeed, President Trump knew of and supported

the attack by Israel on this South Paa's gas field. It's a massive offshore gas field

of the coast of Iran. And now Donald Trump on truth social overnight saying that Israel

out of anger for what has taken place in the Middle East violently lashed out at the South Paa's gas

field. He says the United States knew nothing about this particular attack. Now he goes on to

form an eight and say that if the Iranians continue to take reprisals against Qatar, he's going to

bring, you know, fire and brimstone to South Paa's himself. But by disclosing there that he didn't

know that Israel was about to launch that attack on that gas field, which in and of itself has resulted

in the price of gas soaring just over the last few hours on the markets. I mean, you have to ask

yourself a host of other questions. When Israel says that it has given its military commanders blanket

authority without seeking higher approval on a case by case instance. If they see leading members

of the Iranian regime, the Israeli military is authorized to eliminate them. Well, as Donald Trump

been party to that decision, I mean, who is actually in the driving seat of this conflict?

It was only a week ago that he was pushing back against Marco Rubio, who was suggesting that Israel

had forced America's hand. And he said, no, no, we forced Israel's hand, in fact. It was about 10

days ago. But here we are 10 days later into the third week of this conflict. And he's acknowledging

on truth social. He says he did not know the United States knew nothing about this particular

Israeli attack, which is an astonishing disclosure by the man who's supposed to be claims to be

very much in charge. But of course, we should point out, I don't know, you know this, but for the

benefit of the tape, he could of course be lying because he is a serial liar. So, you know,

the absolute explosion of any semblance of consistency or reliability or objectivity continues

a pace. You don't know when he's lying, because he said to completely opposing things. So, he

must have been lying on one of those occasions. And arguably not lying on the other, but it's

possibly lying on the other. And that is what makes it so difficult, because on one day,

on one day he's saying that he doesn't need British aircraft carriers. So, Keir Starmer's too late,

we don't need them. We don't like people who join wars that we've already won. Then a week later,

he's begging everybody to send more muscle to try and get the straight-of-war moves open.

Then when everybody says you can stuff it, he turns around angrily, threatens the future of NATO,

and insists that actually he never needed their help in the first place. So, how you make sense.

And I know you've been talking on the program earlier. It's a living show. It's a living show.

It's a living show. But we will continue. And we will, of course, always value your help

more than anybody else's in our attempts to make sense of this madness. But you're right.

And that was the opening of the show this week. He is a deranged liar. And that makes a mockery

of all attempts to treat events in a traditional sense. But it is only precious view of a Simon

included who are trying to describe events through the lens of the President of the United States

America being a deranged liar. But remember that Dick by name Little John over at the Daily Mail

wishes that he was actually in charge of this country instead of a democratically elected British

Prime Minister. And we're done for another day. Huge thank you to all my contributors for some

truly special conversations. I'll be back on LBC tomorrow from 10 or right here shortly afterwards.

This has been a global player, original production.