Do You Own Your Game? - DTNS Live 5142

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1:00Hey everyone, it's Chris Kelleboh here, host of the Side Hustle School Podcast. This episode is powered by AT&T Business. In my early days, I did some of my best work in parked cars or coffee shops, but when I landed my first big contract, I realized I couldn't bet my future on a public connection that cuts out if someone turns on a blender. As a small business owner, you're already wearing at least 10 hats. You shouldn't have to be your own IT department as well. That's why I rely on AT&T Business. They keep your connectivity reliable, so you have one less thing to worry about. Powered by AT&T Business, built to work. Get AT&T Business at business.att.com. Wait, did you circle it back to lobster, Roger? Not yet. We're saving it for the show. Save it. The trap to settle at the bottom before you can spring it again. That's how you catch the lobster. And you know, there's a fun fact back in the olden days, and I mean the olden days, I

2:03mean like the 18th century, the lobster was considered a garbage catch. Like fishermen hated to get them and they're like, oh, I'm going to do it with this lobster. Whether they were called like... Sea cockroaches or something? Sea cockroaches. Sea cockroaches. I mean, honestly, I had this whole business idea of converting like giant land scorpions into land lobsters, but it's just a branding thing. And you would say like the tail meat would have just a little bit. Good day, Internet. Good day, Internet. Good day, Internet. One of... Trash of Mother's Day. Good day, Trash of Mother's Day. Where I think Roger was talking about eating scorpion tail if I was following that crack. Yes, I was going to pitch it as a more sustainable way to have our seafood by having it on land. And land lobster. Yeah, just rebrand scorpions as land lobster. Yeah, land lobster is perfect. Let's see. Fight a Minneapolis. The poisons in the stinger of the tail just gives that meat a little hint of, you know,

3:08it's like Fougu, right? You just a little bit of danger that gives you that hint. You have to trust the chef as properly prepared. You know, right in the train off the rail. We're going to have to breed some larger scorpions though, because the current largest species is only nine inches, 23 centimeters. Well, it will move. It will move. Okay, only nine inches. Well, in terms of scorpions, that's frightening and terrifying. In terms of eating the tail, that's a little scrawny. Yes, a little. I mean, scorpion eating is commonplace in various parts of the world. Oh, yeah. And then dried scorpion parts for sale in some places. But the thing is movies and television have taught me that if you want things to go bigger, you just expose it to radiation. Yes, that's right. And then you throw a few generations. But then you don't want to eat it. Oh, good point. Well, so I think I've solved it, Trisha.

4:09We use the radiation to enlarge the parents, but then the offspring won't be poisoned by the radiation, but they'll be big. Listen, this is what you do. It's science. You raise them on a steady diet of iodine food. So whether they're hidden large locusts or whatever, I mean, do they have goaters? Is that what they tell you to do? Like they like the radiation. The parts around Ukraine, around a Chernobyl. Oh, to prevent the radiation from poisoning them. I mean, they still came out with six-legged cows and two-headed goats, but they work for the people, I think. They also move the people. I don't know what that was. I don't know what that was. And in an area that has scorpions, like just milling about, I don't want to eat those. They're nasty. Well, you just haven't had the properly prepared yet. I guess you know what? That's a dip in some butter. Good to know. Put it at a state fair. Somebody fries it.

5:09Who's the second Indiana Jones movie when they were eating dinner somewhere in India? Were those scarabes that they were eating? Did they were food? I think so. Yep, scarab beetles. Yeah. You know, scarab beetles are the crab of the land. They're not the lobster. Although I will say scarab beetles have a less savory name and that might put people off. Yeah, that's where I have to call them land crabs. Like, you know, like if you know, if you see what they do to raise their young, it's not that pleasing. No, but you know, that's true of a lot of species. Yeah, but if you have you guys seen the black frogs, the black frogs of Chernobyl, the black frogs of Chernobyl, no, they've evolved to handle radiation better. The more of the frogs are literally turning black because they're able to survive the radiation better than the regular. You would think that would make them more absorbative of radiation being.

6:10I'd pay, you know, mother nature. Yeah. Yeah. So wait, so do they poison the land when they hop about or is it? Well, it's already poison Roger. It's been going to be like that for about a thousand years, but they have found a way to survive in it and not pass away. Maybe I'll be there. Maybe. Or you're a little more optimistic instead of being a Debbie Downer channel. Okay, sorry, 500 years. I apologize. Listen, I was, I was, I was, I was regaling and the Trisha and Rob and Tom with my journey to Sizzler last week with my kids. And I said clear cut, I prefer to Denys and I think it is a better dollar for dollar value than Denys. Although I will say because, yeah, you know, my wife got the lobster and the lobster slash steak, Serferin turf, Spiney lobster tail, not a true lobster, but if you don't eat the claw meat, it doesn't matter, right? You're just getting the butt. It turns out that the skin pigment protects against ultraviolet radiation.

7:13Huh. There you go. That's why Roger. I think you need to phone up Sizzler and tell them their new slogan needs to be Sizzler, just getting the butt. Yeah. Yeah. I think it would go over well. Yeah, I don't see why they would object. Yeah. T-shirt, tats, mugs, yeah. Just getting the butt. Yeah. Yeah. Why not? Kids all over, we'll be saying it. Kids in the butt. You want a butt? I mean, what do you, actually when you eat a shrimp, you know, you're getting the butt, right? Because you tear off the head and all the other parts. Hopefully it's in devane. Yeah. And I was like, what the butt of a cow? Is that a rump roast? Yeah, a rump roast. Yeah. Do they have that for me? Good question. You know, we ask a hard question. Thank you. You know what? There's something to be said about serving up your own dessert, even though the dessert selection is pretty. But does not look like rump roast is on the official Sizzler menu.

8:15I'm sorry to say. Right. They can't go with that. At least they're not admitting it. Yeah. They can't go with that slogan then. Yeah. And I have to remember, don't order it medium order it medium rare because medium is a little too close to well done. They they air on the side of cooking it more. Yeah. They air the on the side of we're not going to call the health department. Yeah. I get that. Uh, did you ever work in a restaurant? I'm sure she. Oh, for many years, yes. I started as a busser and then moved my way up to Hostess and then moved my way up to server. And then I was a server for many, many, many, many moves. I moved up from I moved up from dishwasher to the busser to part time server and then I moved up to a different job entirely. I never got to server except in extreme emergencies. I was the delivery driver.

9:16And so I get pulled in to be a server sometimes. Okay. If somebody called in sick, but it was really needed it. Yeah. And I was a cook, cook and delivery driver. But I love waiting tables. I know a lot of people don't like that job. I had a great time with it. But I also, I worked quite a few different restaurants, but my most recent restaurant that I worked at, I was a Disney ice cream parlor in Hollywood. And I was part of their opening staff. And so I got to train all the other servers because I was the server that was hired with the most experience. Ah, okay. Yeah. So I wrote the training manual, trained all the other servers. And I did that for like six years, which is cool because it's a Disney gig. You get like dental and 401k. Oh, like it was a official Disney thing. That's cool. So it was really fun. Wait, did you get like Disney perks? Like don't they give you a discount on Disneyland? Uh-huh. And you get a bigger discount once you've hit the five-year mark. Oh, nice. Wow. The big five.

10:16No, was there a performance element to that server role? Or was it too much more than? Too much more than. I mean, you think a happy birthday song. Right, right, right. But nothing. There wasn't like, they didn't have all the waiters stand up and sing at some point. Like you think you have a song book for you? No song books. Nope. I got a song book at the Olive Garden. And to this day, I kind of kicked myself for throwing away. Oh, that's collectible. Yeah. They had a song for, because at the time, that was still when those women sued about the happy birthday. So all the corporate chains were very conscientious about having a birthday song. Happy happy birthday. Happy birthday. I think why did someone sue about a birthday song? They wanted the royalties. They wanted the royalties from me. So the happy birthday song is an actual song. Yeah. And it just went into public domain recently. So that's why you now have restaurants singing it with abandoned. Right. But yeah. But before it was like, you know, you have to work with a restaurant called Poll folks.

11:16And that was a thing. You guys cannot sing the regular happy birthday song. This is the one that we recommend you sing. You can make your own up, but you can't sing the happy birthday song. One minute. You don't want to be sued. That's wild. Yeah. Yeah. And I think it was about the lyrics too. Because the melody was good morning to you that they just, they wrote different lyrics for it. But the copyright or whatever was on the lyrics. Happy birthday. That's why. OK. And we also, we also had like a very sad. We had a song we were supposed to sing near the line. That was to kind of get everyone sort of energized for the night. And it's like, dude, I got to carry 80 pounds of dishes on my shoulders because all the servers put it right in front of the door. But honestly, I made a lot of money just from tips from busing. I got like nine people tipping me out at the evening. And that's like a hundred bucks. Nice. Which is great back in the late 90s sort of. Yeah.

12:17Have a good show everybody. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Good day, Internet. This is DTS Live from Studio 7 in Los Angeles on Tom Merritt. From Columbus, Ohio, I'm Rob Dunlude. I'm the shows producer Roger Chang. And joining us is Tricia Hirschberger. Welcome back. It's good to have you, Tricia. Hello. Thank you so much for having me. It's always delightful to be here. It is always delightful to have you. Have you been? I've been so good. Summer's trucking along. I can't believe we're in fall already. I'm in Southern California. So it still doesn't feel like ball. But I feel like if you want to celebrate spooky season, this is time. Yeah. Well, it got below a hundred. So there's a crispness to the air here. Right. Yeah. But yeah, a couple of programming notes for people who watch live starting next Friday. The show is on at 2 p.m. Eastern, the earlier in the day and more importantly on Friday.

13:19So we're moving from Thursday to Friday. And if you're a patron, if you have the DTS live feed only, you'll want to switch to the DTS feed because this will go into the regular DTS feed on Patreon. And if you are watching live, you can name this episode head to DTS.showbot.tv to submit titles and vote on them. And we'll check back in on the votes after the show with our patrons. DTS live made possible by you. Thanks to all of you, including. Nothing to sneeze at, okay? Nothing to sneeze at. Mystery Mac. Yay, mystery Mac. Jim Hart, Alan K.R. and the Technical T podcast is one of our top bug. Hey, thank you, Technical T. All right, before we get going with the rest of the show, who's got a vote for what they think the top tech story was this week? Usually it's pretty obvious.

14:19This week it's kind of all over the place. I think there's an argument to be made for a lot of different things. Rob, do you have a candidate in mind? Probably the biggest. Look, I don't know. The news that might resonate the most with the most people is that, oh, Apple's got a new CEO now. Right. That's a book. Definitely. Definitely. Down officially on the first, John Ternes has taken over. It's big news in the sense that, I mean, Apple is one of the biggest companies on the planet. And people really, really like their iPhones and their Macs. And a new person is now hitting up that organization. So that is big news, but you're right. There's just a lot of news that happens this week and not really sure what the biggest news is. We're going to grade John Ternes later in the show. So John don't be too nervous. But we're going to put our teacher caps on. Yeah, the other one is just today, it was confirmed that Envidia is buying hugging face, the open source platform for AI projects. So Envidia really getting more into the open weight model end of things, hugging face

15:22going to get a whole lot more resources. I liken it to when Microsoft bought GitHub, I kind of feel like that's. Is this what you would consider a poorly held secret because we were last week determining whether or not can we actually say it yet? Yeah, no, last week on Thursday, they had said it's all but done. And it took till this week on Thursday for us. It took like all signed off. And then it was kind of leaked even at the beginning of last week. So this is kind of news for a minute, but yeah, it's official now. Both companies have come out and said, yeah, we're either bought you or we're being bought. Roger, you agree with either one of these or you have another one to throw in the hat? I mean, the hugging face one, I kind of just assumed it was a done deal. It was really just the actual legal part of the paper work. Yeah, yeah, our transfer to all that. You know, Tim Cook last day, it is news, but I don't know if it's big.

16:22Yeah, it's a milestone. Yeah, yeah. EFA is going on in Berlin. We got Sonos, new Sonos stuff and anchor stuff and lots of cool products coming out of there. The Google, the Google doesn't have to break up. Yeah, yeah, shocked. Did anybody actually think they were going to, but yeah, it's official now. You know, yeah, and that's, that's what I mean. Like that is also big news on another week. That might be the biggest story of the week. Trist, do you have one that you want to throw your? You know, I think it's from, I was just trying to look and see, but I think it's from Aver Media at EFA, but who made that really cool portable handheld that the screen flips? Have you seen that? That's been my favorite. It's kind of like a little mini laptop thingy. So it looks like a steam deck, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. You can lift the screen off of it almost like a clamshell design. Yeah. Lift the screen around and it's got a keyboard on the inside. I think that was Acer. Yeah. Yeah, that's it.

17:23It looks cool. It looks durable, but it looks cool. But it's also a concept, right? I think it is just a concept. Yes, okay. It's a cool concept. I'm trying to see what it was called. Project dual play mini. That's it. That's a great project. Dual play mini. And it just, it looks really neat. And so that captured my attention and it was honestly giving me EFA FOMO. So for me, the big news this week is everything going on at EFA, which I'm like desperately trying to find from all of the wonderful journalists that are there. Yeah. There's a ton came out today. I really like anchor's mind base. I don't know if you saw that. It's a smart home hub. It's all local. So you can do that facial recognition and video logging and all of this stuff. And you can access it over the internet. So there is a little bit of a cloud element to it, but everything stored on your device. There's no cloud service, so there's no subscription. Which I think is great. Yeah. All the, all the, all the affordable stuff, whether you're talking about wise or anything

18:26from the nest family, it's all cloudy based and it's all subscription based. With a chance of hack. Well, you know, instead of meatballs or the chance of, hey, your stuff doesn't work anymore, but you can buy some new stuff if you're cloudy with the chance I can go down as well. We're subsidizing it by selling your information. Yes. You know, you always do. Just working yesterday. No, it's not. That's crazy. Mm-hmm. You know, yeah. The best part about switching my doorbell from Ring to Arlo was when I didn't have to cancel the subscription because I never paid for the Ring doorbell subscription. I know with you, I'm going to go out and then I'm going to say this, but I think that's going to be the next sort of, not category, but the next big thing for home security. It's just kind of local, but accessible online because I have a Synology NAS that has, you can control two pen until zoom cameras on it.

19:28The problem is if you want to do any more, you got to pay like $120 camera license for each one. If you want to do like 12 or something, you got to pay out the lawsuit. Well folks, we have a poll up if you want to vote on what you think the top tech story of the week is. You can vote on that or leave a comment about why you're voting or maybe you're right in vote. That poll is available for everybody to see at patreon.com slash DTNS. When everything is moving all at once, your workforce, your tech stack, your business, you don't need more tools. You need one solution. That's why Paylossi built a single platform to connect HR, finance, and IT with AI-driven insights and automated workflows that simplify the complex and power what's next. When everything comes together in one place, growth comes easy, experience one place for all your HCM needs.

20:30Start now at Paylossity.com slash one. This message is brought to you by today's sponsor, Walden University, set a course for change. Now is the time to make a real change in your life, career, and community. At Walden University, we give you the support and flexibility to get the W. Walden's online programs are designed for working professionals like you. You'll gain hands-on skills to take on real-world challenges and succeed. Your future is waiting and Walden is here to help you achieve it. Take the first step to make your impact. Visit waldenu.edu. Walden University, set a course for change, certified to operate by chef. Well, we had so much fun with David Spark last week that we're going to try the big tech question again this week. So we've divided into teams once again to explore a different question. What does the future of video games look like without discs? This is the world posited by Sony when they said they would stop making physical media

21:33for video games in 2028. So taking the position of it'll be mostly positive is Rob Dunwood. And on the side of I don't think so, losing discs is going to make things worse. This Trisha Hershberger and in the swing seat still deciding his answer is Roger Chang. I am Tom Merritt. I will be your referee as I was last week. None of you saw, but I definitely flipped a coin and started us off. Is Trisha Hershberger? Trisha, you have two minutes to make your argument for why you think the future of video games will look less positive without physical discs. So to start off, I'm going to go from like the small argument and then build. So to start off, I clearly collect a lot of things. I am someone who has been gaming since I was very young and collecting games and having your game library stored on your shelf is a beautiful thing. I think there's something to collecting that requires something tangible.

22:36So from the collectible aspect, I think that that's a big part of gaming is a hobby that should not be ignored. Second to that, what about folks that don't have great connectivity and or may want to play their games offline? If you have ever tried to play a game that you purchased digitally, let's say on your not primary Nintendo switch on an airplane, you feel my pain here because it says connecting to see if this game can be played. And if you didn't buy Wi-Fi on that plane, you cannot play your game, which brings me to my third point. What is your game? When you buy it, are you even buying it? If it's just digital, technically you're not. You are licensing it. So whatever you buy, you cannot bequeath to someone else, you cannot resell it, you cannot enjoy it offline. And if whoever you bought it from decides that, you know what, we don't want you to have an account anymore. Your entire library can just poof, disappear.

23:37So you never had it to begin with. This is why all digital is awful for gamers. It's going to make the powers that be the top 1%, the only garks of the world say, no, no, we own everything. You rent it from us, you plebs. That's where the future of gaming is going and it's awful. It's awful. All right. Very succinct, very, very well argued. Thank you, Trish. It's now your turn, Rob. You have two minutes to make your argument about why you think the future of digital video games is preferable. So the big reason for me is that, and I did a little research knowing that I was going to take this position, most games are not played on PlayStation 5. They simply aren't. Most games aren't played on Xbox or and PlayStation 5 or Nintendo's and Xbox's and PlayStation 5. Most games are played wirelessly. They're played mobilely. They're played on your mobile phone. I think it's a 55 to 54% from 7% of all games are played on people's phones.

24:38There aren't any physical disc for your phone. There aren't any physical media for your phone. And this is how games are played. So that's point one. Most games that are played are already digital downloads only. The second major point is that it's one of the reasons that Sony is doing this is because it's expensive to print these games out. So one of the things that happens when you make a new game and you have to put it on a disc, you have to go gold with that well before you actually released the game. So if you're going to go gold with a game that you're going to do a worldwide release on, you have to have that game printed on. These discs five to seven weeks in advance of the actual go live date. And then we know that time sucks up everything. You know, developers are going to continue to develop stuff until the literally the moment that the game goes live. So once you have the game that's on the disc, you still have to re-download much of the game when you actually start to play it because there are so much that has been changed once it's happened. Then you're just talking about the printing of the disc, you know, keeping around the technology and blu-ray. I think the Sony disc, they hold up to a hundred gigabytes.

25:38So now these bigger games are going to require more than that. Some of these games are 200, 250 gigs when you get all of it. So you're requiring multiple distance you would have to have. And then the third part is that games have just evolved. Many games that people play today are not just you put the game in and you play the game in an internet connection is not required. These games require in their connectivity because you're playing with other people. The games are constantly being worked on by the developers where there are updates. And you need that internet connectivity. So if the game requires the connectivity, I don't see it being a digital download as being that big of a deal because you had to download all the stuff to play the game in the first place. So I think when you look at all those those three things in our many, many more, you know, I know folks are kind of worried about game stop and stuff like that. Businesses change over time in other businesses that are adaptive to those businesses have to adapt to those businesses. So I think that game stop doesn't go away. Trish to your point of, you know, I like to have the collectible. You can still make a collectible.

26:39You just don't have the actual physical dish. You can still have a plush toy or, you know, art or something like that with the game. We have hit the time. All right. Thank you Rob. That was well argued as well though. Thank you very much. We now are going to take a few minutes for open discussion. As I did last week, I will act like a football referee randomly adding injury time. So you don't know what you have until suddenly I say, okay, we're, we only have a minute left. But this open conversation now. So Trish, you can respond to what Rob said. Rob, you can respond to what Trish said and Roger, you want to jump in. And I will be here for fact checking if anybody wants me to look up something or find a stat or anything I'm at your disposal. So I actually, Rob, I really liked your point about games that need to be played online because you're playing with other people. But I don't think that every game should be beholden to online multiplayer rules. If it's a single player solo experience that I want to enjoy offline without some company

27:42watching everything I'm doing or requiring me to have good connectivity to play, why, like, why are we mandating that for everyone? The disc is not indicative of the game being an online player. Not it's just you have to download the game. So if the game is created to be played offline, you download the game to get the game. But once you have it on whatever device you're playing it on, the internet connection isn't necessary if it's that type of game. So I don't think that that actually point, you know, it works. If you don't need to know how it works, that's not how it works. If you're on your Nintendo Switch and you're trying to play a game that you've downloaded and it can't connect to the internet to verify that you are the account that is associated with that digital copy of the game. Too bad so sad you've got a brick device in a six hour flight that you just got to sit there and be sad now. I think that's a choice that the manufacturer makes. It's not, it doesn't have to be that way. They could absolutely allow you to play these games. Why do I say that? I play games on my phone all the time when I have zero internet connectivity.

28:43It's one of the reasons why I play games on my phone is because I know I'm going to be in a bad cell area. So this isn't, you know, it isn't it isn't that the game. It has to be on disk and that's the only way you can have it and not play online. It's just that's the choice that the developer made. A lot of the stores are making that PlayStation Xbox valve Nintendo. They're all going with this model of your licensing. The only thing that's actually going more with what you're saying, Rob, is like a GOG where you download it and once you download it, it's actually yours. So let me, let me, you bring up a really good point, Shoshit. So is this an issue of physical media or rather licensing issues with these companies, right? Now I could argue that even with the disk, you know, if you were a PC gamer for a time before digital downloads were like the standard way of getting your games, you still had the update with patches and you got a lot of patches because some of these games are pretty rough when they shipped out to retail.

29:45But is that more just of a licensing like, hey, if they just agreed to give you full control. So when you download it, like with Steam, you can download a digital game and you can store it offline. So you can't play it offline. If you want to, isn't that just more of like a large, a large company just saying, we want to control regardless? And if you have a disk, they can still check to see if you're online to allow you to play. They're, you know, I mean, so it's my, my, my whole belief is I'm fine with either format. I do not like the way that the industry, especially consoles, because they are such vertically integrated businesses, have that sort of, we will have our finger on the pulse of whatever you're doing on our system because that's what we've geared our system, our gaming ecosystem around, right? You have a gamer tag, you have achievements, you have awards, but they're all tracking you.

30:49They're all tracking your data and they want to have a level of control. Even with, this is really what bugs, even with a retail copy of the game, sometimes it still needs to update because they left a couple of bugs in the game. And sometimes you got to wait until they release the game of the, you know, the, the game with a year version that has all the patches, as well as all maybe like three quarters of the DLC that you pay like $60 for plus the commemorative mug that comes with it or something. Oh, can I interject here? Yeah. All that stuff you said has absolutely nothing to do with whether a game was downloaded or whether, or whether it was available on disk because I would argue that many of these games that are downloadable on, downloadable and also available on disk, they lock you into the same stuff. That's not the argument. The argument is that does a downloadable game or if games are only downloadable and you don't have physical media, does that make gaming worse? The way you get the game doesn't make it worse. The restrictions that the developers put on how you play the game may,

31:51but the delivery mechanism doesn't affect one way or the other. Like I said, the reason I feel so strongly about this is because most people play most games on their phones. No one who is playing a game on a phone is playing with physical media. They downloaded the game from an app store and they're playing it on their phone. We're positive whether the game requires internet access. They have to have it. If it doesn't require internet access, they don't have to have it, but it's still a digital download. And that's the only way you can get those games. So I have an Nvidia shield and for the longest time, they offered a plethora of games that you could download and play on the Nvidia shield that I've paid for. Like real bucks. They no longer support it. And I cannot download it because it's no longer offer because the developer doesn't want to support it. So I'm SOL 40 bucks on like the Tomb Raider, you know, the Crystal Dynamics version of Tomb Raider that they developed for the Nvidia shield. I can't get anymore because I had to like wipe my system and restart from scratch because I had a bug that wouldn't let me, you know, cruise to the menu.

32:52So my, you know, I, Trisha's argument is like, I get it on disk, whatever I bought my system. I still have it. I have, I have versions. And this is the thing. I'm a big Star Trek fan. There was a bunch of Star Trek games that they produced in the mid 2000s that they no longer produce because of licensing issues. However, I still have the disk. Now I can only play it on Windows XP, which is fine, but I got a piece in the closet for that purpose. Now I don't have a monitor, a VGA monitor. I got to find one of those, but I still have the game. And if I decided to blow out a weekend, cobbling everything together so I can play 20 minutes. So I can hear, you know, Patrick Stewart say, engage, you know, like when I move, you know, move the ships around on the screen, I could do that. But I can't do it right now because that game is no longer available. Is that an exception? Or is that the rule point point of point of order here? And I think that's a good question, Rob. And it's, and this is a little bit to Rob's point.

33:52We are debating whether that let me get the actual question here. We are talking about what does the future of video games look like without disks? And we're, we're, we're, we're varying into policy decisions, right, of what gaming company should and shouldn't do. And, and that is, that is definitely pertinent to this topic. But the topic is specifically like, what does the future of video games look like without disk? Maybe we should have made the topic what should the future of video games look like without disk? But I love Rob's kind of idealistic approach that it's up to the developers, whether or not their game needs to be played off or online. It's not. It's the retailer. If I buy a physical copy from GameStop and take it home, GameStop can't say, oh, we take it back now. Ha ha, Neener, Neener, Neener, but steam can, but PlayStation can, but Xbox can,

34:55but Nvidia can all of the major retailers that sell video games. So this is not the exception. This is the rule. All of them operate on a licensing approach. I don't, I'm not an eye friend, but I'm going to guess Apple Store works the same way when you download a game from the Apple Store. But if Apple wants to say, no, we're doing away with your account. You don't get your money back for any of that because you never really own that when it's physical media. That is yours and you own it. And like Roger said, as long as you have a machine old enough to play it, it is still yours and you bought it and you own it. My, my rebuttal to that would be is that if the producer out of the game that created the physical media allows you to, if it's a game that you, that you have on disk, but that game makes you check in and they say, you know what? This game can no longer be played, even though you have the physical disk, you will no longer be playing the game because that's what the developer decided to do with that game. So the media and the distribution mechanism doesn't change for me.

35:55If you can deliver a game on disk and you can deliver a game via the internet, the game itself can be identical on how you play it. The developer determines how you're going to be able to play it and that wasn't the prompt. The prompt was, if you only can download a game in the future, is that bad for gaming? I don't think it is because you can download the exact games that you have today. You know, in the future, we have that technology. How the developers and the retailers decide to allow you to play it? That's a different discussion, but they actually, the downloading of the game that should make any difference in how the game actually plays. Yes, wings say carry on. If you really want to look at how the future of video gaming will work with just digital downloads, it's already here. Right? I mean, Sony, Microsoft, Nintendo does it, but they do it because they do it in a different way that doesn't come off the same way. I mean, they sell cartridges for games that you start off the download because that's just a placeholder.

36:59But the truth of the matter is, video gaming, as it is practiced on consoles right now, is probably one of the most closed market systems ever developed. Right? Even I would say it's even more owners than the old studio we own our theaters and we have, you know, we have our actors signed up from birth until they die, you know, making movies only for us. It is very, very narrow. It is very, very mercantile. Like there's a level of abuse in the system that I think, and this is one reason why we get to the other question in the show today. I think that video games as the current industry right now is unsustainable. You have, you have these world gardens where yeah, you have exclusives. Everyone said, oh, they have exclusives. That's why I'm going to buy that. I have always felt exclusives are emblematic of what's wrong with the entire industry, right? You can only play. You only, the only reason why exclusives existed back back in the day was because of hardware requirements.

38:02Right? You need specific hardware, you need developers. Right now everything's subtracted. You use the same game engine. Yeah, the hardware is slightly different, but they're like X86 platforms with the exception of the switch. But I'll just say this just one last point. I hear everything that you're saying that has nothing to do with the viability of games being downloaded or games being available on this. So I just give you one point. I have an Xbox 360 in my car. There are games that I have downloaded to that Xbox 360. So because so I don't have to change out the cartridge or change out the disc in this case to be able to play those games. Can I play every game that's available on Xbox 360 in my car? No, why? I don't have an internet or persistent internet connection in my car, but the games that I've downloaded on that Xbox 360 that allow me to play those games without a persistent internet connection work no differently than games that I have actually have a disc for. In fact, in some cases, they may work better because if you only have the disc and there was an update, the disc doesn't have the update. If you've got no internet, you can't get it. So the game will play, but it will play with whatever was wrong with the game before the update actually happened.

39:08That is not the case on my Xbox 360 in my car because I do regularly take it out of the car, bring it into the house to swap the games out depending on what trip I'm about to drive. I would like to propose a referee's sub question here because I think I have a better handle on a theme that's coming out. Historically, we perceive physical media games to be more under our control because back in the day when you bought a cartridge, that was the game. There were no updates to it and you could just put it in the machine that it played with and play it like you didn't have to ask anybody's permission. However, today it is certainly possible to treat physical media as if it were DRM and that you do have to get that permission. Likewise, digital games historically are perceived as being locked up because as Trisha made the point earlier, most companies that sell digital games lock them up. They require you to have the permission to play them, but it doesn't have to be that way. You can have a good old games that's like, no, we're going to give you the digital files and then they're yours.

40:11As long as you have them, you can play it. Do you think, here's the sub question, that the format itself actually causes those behaviors, encourages those behaviors, or is this just historical precedent that companies might be able to get over? I like that question, Tom. I think that having options is better. I think if you have physical as an option, it means that not everything can be locked up. But again, maybe this is just precedence because Rob, you were saying like, some physical discs you have, you still need to check online. And I also think a caveat to this is what types of games you play. I play a lot of solo single player experiences that do not need to be checked online for me to play them. Right? If I'm offline, it's totally fine. But if everything you're playing on your 360 is an online multiplayer experience, then yes, clearly you need to check in with something to see if it can be played.

41:13So I think it is a lot more of that old-school mentality of like, I want to buy this thing. And whether I have the option to download it digitally, which is certainly more convenient, I get it immediately versus waiting for it to come in the mail. Or whether I want to prioritize the option to play this offline forever and ever amen as long as I have the working hardware, at least consumers have a choice then, as opposed to it being an all digital future, where we're all beholden to whatever the retailers decide. Yeah, I think that the way that the industry is going, if we still have physical media, let's say five years from now, six years from now, that the games that are physical media will just cost more. Why? Because the developer has to go through the expense of printing them and delivering them to you. Whereas with the digital games, it's just you have internet and we're going to put them on a server and you can come and download them. And I do believe that because of the way the industry is going, particularly with the games that are played on Xbox and PlayStation in Nintendo.

42:13Those games, regardless of whether they are available via physical media or only available via download, those games will be locked to you and to your account on your device, because that is how these companies make the most money. That wasn't the question that was asked though, is the question is, is, is, you know, is our digital downloads bad for gaming in the future. And I just don't think that the digital download itself is a bad thing because you can do all the things you can do with physical media, what they did you download if the developer or the retailer so chooses to allow you to do so. But I, you know, just but Tom also brought the question of like, what does the landscape of video gaming look like when download digital downloads are like it. There is no physical media. And I will, I will say, perversely enough, this will probably put a nail into into the, you know, the final nail in the coffin for both PlayStation and Xbox less so for Nintendo, because Nintendo's whole thing is our hardware is part of the toy, the play aspect, which not so much with, with Xbox and to a lesser degree with PlayStation, because at some point the developers are going to look around,

43:21it's like, why are we teaching our wagon to this one platform when we can have a much broader, broader marketplace if we sell on a bunch of marketplaces. So also like the hardware, the hardware requirements are all similar and they're not that wildly different than the line technology. So. All right, I'm calling time on the open discussion. Now Roger, you don't know you were very active in the open discussion, which is great. So I don't know if you have any questions that you want to ask Rob and Trish left before you announce where your, where your mind is at at the end of this. So Rob, let me ask you this, is there one game that you want to have that you can always access, regardless of whether you're on the internet and that you can play whenever you want. Prototype to. It prototype to for the Xbox 360, I can put that game in my Xbox 360 without an internet connection and play it. I can download the game on the Xbox 360 does in my car and play the game without an internet connection.

44:27And Trisha are there games from good old games that you could have not received anywhere else. If not through that service and then now you have stored safely on a NAS or maybe a burnt blu-ray disc or like which is physical media. Yeah. Yeah, so it's like making your own physical media. I saw someone online do that where they were downloading and then putting on their own like cartridge looking SSK. It's cool. But yeah, I mean, there's lots of games I've bought on GOG that I probably also could have purchased on steam, but then it's tied inherently to the viability of my steam account. Whereas when I buy it on GOG and download it as long as I have it on that physical disc, it is mine. And so I know Rob was saying like these are two separate questions, you know, the licensing and the ownership of it. But I think they are inherently tied to whether or not we have physical media. I don't think they're two separate questions. I think they're one in the same.

45:30All right, Roger. You know, the problem is it is now time for you to announce whether you're going to stay in that swing seat. Are you going to jump over to Rob or Trisha's side? The problem is I agree with both of them. So you're staying in the swing seat. It's very hard. I mean, Rob makes an incredibly compelling point. It really is. Once you remove the emotion and you remove the kind of business practice around it, a digital download is no different than putting that same information on the disc. 100% agree with you. But Trisha brings up a very good point. The business model exists the way it is because they can't control the physical media as well as the digital download. And the digital download does allow them to put a lot of hooks in you that they maybe had one or two before and now they get to put all 12, 12 hooks in you. Yeah, so many hooks. So I don't know if I can't like is the swing seat like just like do I just swing here?

46:31Yeah, you can just it's fun to swing. There can only be one. This is this is the highlander version of the game or playing today. So they can only be one. Oh, wow. I mean. The thing is I if you're going to put it that way, I sort of lean toward Trisha because I sort of anti big business that had that decides to like, you know, oh, you're going to like this. It's going to be so much easier for you. Yeah. And then you won't have these clumsy things that you got to stick in your box to play. All you need to do is you know sign up with your account. You get all these you got these amazing benefits and once once in a while every if you're a gold member, you get a free game from us. It's a great. It's 12 years old, but it's free. You can download your plant whenever we want until one day we just the CEO decides, hey, this is a really bad business model. You do something else and then you're kind of so well. You know, one thing I Trisha brought up in her opening statement that I think I thought we'd get talked about more in the discussion is the collectible aspect.

47:34You know, the idea of just having the thing with physical media like we focused on the entirely on the practical part of it. I mentioned that you can absolutely still do the collectible. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you go to you go to GameStop and you buy the box with the digital code on it. You had to code it has the plush toy and it has the you know the artwork in the in the comic book that comes with it. You can absolutely do that. How do I know this because that absolutely done it. Yeah, I don't know. I'm just here at GameStop. And it's weird because for me as soon as video games moved to optical discs, their collectability sort of dropped for me. In a way that so at least with they're more collectible and floppy or cartridge you think in more cartoons. Yeah, cartridge. So especially with computer software back then they had to fight for retail space. You weren't just fighting you know video game consoles. You're also fighting VHS you know CDs and then you had to fight for piece. What would you have a PC?

48:34You have a C64. You have an Amiga. So you hit the fight for shelf space and to get your eyes they made boxes in different shapes. And they made to sure they made sure if you're paying 40 bucks or something they would include some sort of object. Right. So if it was an RPG might magic used to have one. It had a really huge colorful map that came with it. So there was like, oh you could touch you could feel infocom. Famous for making text only adventures. They knew they couldn't just sell a floppy, although they eventually did at Walton bookstore. But they gave you big boxes and they included things they called feleys. Right. So my my sport game comes with a zork mid one of the coins in the game. If you played wish bringer came with the wishing stone. If you played a border zone. I had like a party, you know, low pamphlet that you know that sort of immersed you in the environment of the game. And I think all that stuff is still possible. No, I totally agree with you. But all the stuff right now I think is just sort of not. Yeah, I guess I could take a Spartan helmet from Halo that doesn't fit my head.

49:36As a collectible but really. Roger what I'm hearing is that. I'm going to put the entire soundtrack on vinyl. Great, but you also give it to me as a digital download like a wave or MP3s. I don't know. I don't really have a record player. I guess having a vinyl school but having like 20 boxes of vinyl floating around. I don't know. I really sound like you want to agree with me. You want to agree with me, but you just don't want to agree with me because all the stuff that the big business can do. Yes. But you only have it available. But that just can do our actually doing. They're already doing it. It's not a mythical future. And Rob you actually brought up something that I was like this would be an excellent point for digital media. If they didn't price it the same as physical media because you brought up them like they save all this money by not printing on disks. Those digital downloads are still 80 bucks right now for the triple A games. It's not like they're pricing them less because they're saving all that money not printing this.

50:37If they added that into the consumer experience, I think that would go a long way. Which is so interesting because so many other digital formats do give you a discount. An ebook costs less than a paperback copy. It's a music album. Not that people buy them. They all stream. Here's the thing service. But they cost less than the CD. Wal-Mart Best Buy and Target will never allow that. We sell physical things here. You charge the same amount for the physical thing that you charge online for. They allow it for CD. And books though. Like yeah. But to me they they they'll type they've held. Yeah. That is something because the business of making video games today is so outrageously expensive. They have to they have they have to count out to all these because a big chunk of their buyers are still casual video gamers. They see it on the store and say, Mommy go buy me that that has a cool picture on it. Yeah.

51:37And they buy it. They can't risk that because they spend. I worry about to give a triple a game like Redfall that doesn't work out of the box and make to do a bunch of updates. And then you're taking yourself this was 70 bucks. Thank you. Roger Trish. I'm not like going car. Yeah. Go ahead Rob. We we both want to know who you going with? Who who who who swayed you? Who gets your vote? This is the problem. I would take both of you and smush you together to make a rob her. Because a transporter accident in the making. The two vicks of this video game argument. All right. Well, I don't think we're getting Roger out of the swing seat today. Roger. Yeah. Are you you're gripping on for dear life? What I do think came out of this is a design for what consumers want. Right? Because Trish is like, yeah, if the digital version gives me all the same rights, then I'm fine with that.

52:40And what Rob said was like, yeah, I can still get my collectible things if you want to do that. So so here you go. Give us give us collectibles and give us the rights to our games. And bring down the price to of the digital version, you know, and I think we'll get some of it. They're going to give us collectibles and they're going to give us digital, but they're not going to give us rights. And they're not going to give us that just doubt. But we can we can ask public pride. Don't never underestimate the power of public pressure. People think because we bought cartridges that you were buying the game. That has really technically never been the case. You were only ever buying the license to use the game. Yeah, just that you because you had the physical. Yeah, yeah, yeah, so that's that's the difference. Not for the original software back in the 80s. Some of it was not licensed, but some of it was like that that was true back then. All right, real quickly we're going to do this one around the horn lightning style. Tuesday was John Ternis's first day of CEO of Apple. And while it's entirely unfair to judge him on three days of work, we're going to do it anyway.

53:43What did you think before he even gets to announce the new iPhones next week? What did did you think of John Ternis's first week on the job Rob Dunlund? I have not been excited about an iPhone since the first one when Steve Jobs was running the company. I am very excited about the iPhone fold. If that whatever is going to be called the iPhone, ultimate, the extreme, whatever they call it, I'm very interested in that to the point to where I'm probably going to get one. So if that means anything, John Ternis is doing a great job because you know the last guy can you remember his name? What was that dude used to work there? Tim Cook never got me to buy an iPhone. All right. All right. John Ternis might be able to. Nothing says fair than a panel of three Android users judging Apple. But Roger Chang, what did you think of John Ternis's first week? He didn't make any gaps.

54:43So I guess that's good. Right? So like the first, the last thing you wanted is someone who sits in the new driver seat and just makes a mistake out of the gate. Yeah. And not even like a business mistake. Right. Just open their pie hole and say something that no one likes. Or they just can, everyone misconstrues. Smart. Keep your mouth shut and let, let, let the wins affortune blow. Yeah. His opening memo was fairly unobjectionable. Very, you know, very unremarkable perhaps. Trace, what about you? I mean, as an Android all the time, gal, I don't often follow iPhone news. But even I saw a cute video online with the new CEO in Pikachu, like handing an Apple's Tim Cook and John Ternis and Pikachu all together in one video. So I mean, if Pikachu is passing the torch, that's got to be a good sign. Pikachu approved. Yeah. It's not bad, but it insinuated at least.

55:43That's not a bad start. All right, stock price is up. And there's your metric. Yeah. It's not prices up. He didn't take the stock. So that's good. That's a good new piece of news as well. All right. Before we move on Roger, what's on live with it this week? I live with it. It's a show that you should be watching each week. Sarah talks to talks about a long term tech in our lives from home internet to vacuums in her case robot vacuums. To energy efficient cooling solutions like I'm going to split this week. We're going in on babies, not my babies, but Amos's babies. What's the best way to keep breast milk fresh and portable? Amos is living with it right now and he shares all the details on the equipment he has and what he likes and dislikes about them. So catch it over at youtube at youtube.com slash at live with the show and big thanks to all our patrons who keep us around trying new things over at patreon.com slash live with it.

57:36All right. Our last question of the week is based on an article at Geekwire by Thomas Wilde. The article was called Why the Video Game Industry may be sliding toward its next big crash. It's a good article. Well written. So I highly recommend go read the full article. But just sum it up for you right now. His main reasons are the component shortage driving up prices combined with Sony's decision to drop physical media, which means they're worried about revenues. They're trying to cut that cost of physical media indicates to him that maybe this time when people are saying, Hey, it's the 83 crash all over again. It might actually be true. So the question is, do you think the video game industry is heading towards a big crash? Trisha, I know you live and read this.

58:41What do you think? I mean, I hope not. Like as someone that enjoys video games, of course, I hope that this is not the future. I am very concerned about what we were talking about earlier but moving into kind of how raw, how Roger positioned it as well. Where these big companies are putting themselves in a position where we own nothing, they own everything. And the component shortage adds to that, right? It's like, oh, but you want streaming video games. So you don't have to own the hardware, we alone the hardware, we alone the games. You just rent it from us forever and ever and ever and you'll always pay us your money and we own your soul. Yeah. You see the big companies are going and that's that that is really sad. That's a sad dystopian future for you. Did you see the news that Microsoft is going to put a limit on the amount of hours of cloud gaming at the ultimate level for Xbox Plus? Yeah. Yeah, another example of trying to save money, right? Yeah. Yeah, that's the direction it feels to be going.

59:41But I do also think it's a greater problem of how much money is spent developing certain AAA games. When you've got the situation where in now where it's a landscape of AA games with a lot of heart coming out and absolutely killing it, maybe there needs to be a little bit of a reset where we're not needing to hit these super, super, super high numbers with every single release. We just scale that back a little bit. I don't know. This is all pie in the sky dreams from a gamer. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Rob, what about you? Do you think we're headed for crash? I don't know that we're headed for a crash. What I do believe is that the console is long in the tooth and the demise of the actual console is probably gone. We're moving to exactly what Trisha just said. You buy a subscription and you just pay us every month and you can play all these games. As someone, I started playing games like when the Atari 2600, when my older brother would say,

1:00:42okay, I'll let you get on for a few minutes. This is back in the very early 80s is when I have never stopped. I still probably am a, I probably average seven hours to 10 hours a week playing video games even today. But I do believe that what's going to happen is that you just now buy a Netflix subscription and you just play games. Netflix is actually trying to get you to do that. But I think the subscription is going to be you buy something from PlayStation, you buy something from Xbox. You just give us money every month and here are the games that you're allowed to play. Here's the amount that you're up to 15 hours. You're allowed to play them. You're allowed to play them. Or we want more money from you. I'm not happy about that, but that's what I see happening because I'm thinking about like the way that I'm playing games now. I don't need to take my Xbox with me. I just need to take my controller with me and I can play on whatever screen is in front of me most of the games that I regularly play. Now, are they going to look as good as if I'm playing with the game downloaded to the Xbox and playing there? No, but my Xbox has limited memory in it.

1:01:45You know what I'm not doing? Going and buying a $74 billion part drive to play into it. So I can just have more games downloaded to it. So I tend to stream the games because it's just easy and I can play them anywhere. So my behavior has actually changed. I know that I'm looking at a game on my computer screen. This being streamed or definitely when I'm looking at one on my phone or on my tablet. They don't look as good as when I'm playing on the actual Xbox, you know, in the room where I play my Xbox games most often. I know that. I don't really care because it wasn't about how good the game looked for me at this point. It's about that I was able to get to fix. Was I able to get to the next level, get my 45 minutes for that night in and then get off and go do something else? So I do think that it's going to change. I think that you have a lot of younger folks now who didn't grow up with cartridges that they. This is just the world that are in. I did just want an Xbox subscription. I have a nephew who does not have any physical games that I didn't give him every game that he's ever purchased. He just downloaded it or he asked me to download it for him and he just plays it on his Xbox that way.

1:02:47Roger. Yeah. No, there's definitely a crash that the economics of the business right now do not make sense. You, the, Trisha brings up a very interesting point. Like so the reason why AAA games are having such a hard time right now is because the development costs are outrageous. And to justify those costs, you have to sell X amount of units, but they're not selling them. And so what you see our studios getting shut down because these companies are running like we're hemorrhaging money somewhere and we need to make it up. And they're so they've been so fixated on. I mean, honestly, it's not unlike what you see with Hollywood blockbuster. I was thinking the same thing when you're saying. Hey, you know what sells the Marvel Cinematic Universe. We just got to crank these out like Pes, you know, and have one of these every, you know, have four of these every year. And we'll be making bank. The problem is the audience isn't there anymore because A, they might be tired.

1:03:47B only so much time in a day you can actually play games when you got work, kids and everything else under the sun to deal with. Well, there's the problem video game companies need to get rid of all of your other responsibilities. I believe you said there's a little bit of joking here, but honestly some, you know, some people think that way. But the problem is, you know, when you, when you AAA titles have always been a thing that they invested in because it's a safe bet, right? Who doesn't want to play the next maddened, right? You want the latest teams, you want the latest player rosters. So you get 2026. Oh, 2027's coming out. Great. Well, tweak the features. We'll get you to your roster. Maybe throw up a couple of license bands in there as well. 2027. So it was a safe bet, but at this point that safe bet doesn't look so safe anymore. And what's killing it is what Trisha was saying. It's like that AA, but even indie games dispatched. That's a game that came out of nowhere and people love it to death. And honestly, their development budget is probably a tenth of what Ubisoft, you know, has to spend on an Assassin's Creed, you know, variation, you know, that they produce.

1:04:58And, you know, it's sad to say, but the economics of the business, the current business model isn't working. And I think these businesses are are feeling it and what you can see is a retrenchment. And then people are going to just kind of feel it. There's going to be a dip. I don't think it'll be a full on crash. And even in the video game crash of 83 was in the crash crash. It was just a lot. It was an oversupply of mediocre software that basically got buried. And then you had 70 and then. And in each case, literally got buried. Yeah, like you're saying in Nintendo come in and say, Ha, we got great library. We'll control the flow software. I'm pissed and then everyone's going to be happy. And then we find ourselves in the exact same position. Yeah. I think the comparison to film is very apt because I don't think we're going to see a video game industry crash. But I think we will see video game companies crash. And we're already seeing the first examples of that. And it's because they, they, they, it starts to sound a little bit when we make these arguments about,

1:06:01well, they spend all this money. So they have to justify it and sell it. And it's like, yes. But also they spend all that money because they thought they could sell it, right? We, you don't see them creating these huge budgets for games. If you don't have that decade of people saying, well, the video game industry dwarfs the film industry. You know, and it's like you, all you got to do is make a sequel and then you're caching checks. And it was true for a while, but they're running into the same issue that the film industry ran into, which is yes, up to a point. And people still do like sequels, but at a point, they also want original content. They want obsession. They want back rooms, right? They want new things to come in and they start to turn it. That's just a normal consumer cycle. And I think video games are going through that cycle right now. Yeah. How many assassins creeds are we up to at this point? Is it like 87 or the amount of the ceases? But there's definitely a couple dozen. Because no, there's more than it does it because you also have the mobile version and then you have the handheld like right. It's like how the least at least if he doesn't.

1:07:02Yeah, this is this is why fast food sucks right now. There's too many people selling too many of the same things. When people at some point, well, no, but at some point people are like, well, everything's a hamburger. I want something different. Right? You know, I think that a lot of people say actually this. I think a big reaction to this is people are hearing crash and are thinking bubble. Those are very different things. The bubble affects everybody. Crash affects the companies making the stuff. Well, so Tom, you kind of alluded to that. I think that you're going to see a lot of companies either consolidate or just go out of business because they just don't have people buying it. Because they're not a doubted state. They're fast enough to do the doubt changes to numbers. And the bubble is a very specific economic thing, right? And that's where not a lot of people are investing money. People aren't investing money. That's the point I was just making. Yeah. And Rob, you talked about it being like a changing landscape and maybe not a crash, but like it's turning into something different. And it was really interesting when you brought up. Did you say it was your nephew who's the only like is all digital?

1:08:03He's not a young 16, but he has no concept of what a cartridge is like in his. If he ever looks at me and my older brother or my younger brother actually play like on tech mobile on the Nintendo 64. He's like, why can't they pass? Why could he only rub the book? You know, those kind of things. It's just different for him now. So his thing is that he, you know, he's got a little side hustle job and he pays for a Xbox subscription and whatever he can play with his Xbox subscription. Those are the games he has. And let's see, comes to my house and raids my foot locker of games. And I'm looking at what happened to such a size. I know I had it. It's not here anymore. Call him. Call him. Oh, yeah, I'm gonna bring that back when I come by. Well, I mean to that point though, like younger generations are much more comfortable with this always online. Feel like take a look at the success of Fortnite, right? Not only the success and how many people play it. It's completely digital. No one cares that they need to be always connected. And live service games like that are what's making 80% of the video games revenue right now.

1:09:05So you've got these kind of older generation studios trying to pump out single player solo experience games or, you know, games that like we grew up loving in our generation. And they're just getting dwarfed when it comes to revenue by these live service games. Now this makes me as an elder millennial very sad because I feel like the games and the gaming experiences I know in love and I enjoy will go away naturally as a consequence of them just not being as lucrative. But I think when we talk about the physical to digital games transition and when we talk about will there be a crash and we'll certain studios close. All of that is absolutely tied together. Yeah, well, Trisha Hershberger, thank you for tying together a wonderful episode. We couldn't have done it without you. It's always a pleasure to have you. Yeah. Thank you so much for having me. You guys are the absolute best. I learned something every time I come on this show. So Robin, Roger and Tom, thank you very much. And folks want to learn more from you.

1:10:06I know you got lots going on. Where should they go? Well, if you're looking so pretty much everywhere I talk about tech and video games and the intersection thereof. But if you're looking for like that, but skewed a little bit more tech, I would go to youtube.com slash Trisha Hershberger. And if you're looking for more gameplay and kind of silly lifestyle stuff, you go to twitch.tv slash Trisha Hershberger. And I post in all the places, so just come hang out. Fantastic. Go hang out with Trisha. It's a good time folks. Go do it. youtube.com slash Trisha Hershberger and twitch.tv slash Trisha Hershberger. You can also hang out with us starting next week on Fridays on Twitch and YouTube as well. Big thanks to everybody watching us on YouTube. Everybody supporting us on Patreon. Don't forget to on YouTube to use your hype points for the show. They don't cost you anything and it helps other people discover us. Big thanks to everybody who subscribes on twitch like fakie knows grab double zero 63 months with us on twitch and then brand new follower no underscore double zero.

1:11:07We also got a 165 stream streak going on from gjames b more be a 65 given us 200 bits. Big thanks to everybody who supports us in any way possible, including Patreon because patrons stick around on patreon.com slash dtns. It's going to be game time and Roger Chang has prepared a special game in honor of Dolly Parton. That's at patreon.com slash dtns. Folks, and if you want more tech news, we've got it. So come check us out at dailytakenewshow.com. This week's episode of DTNS Live was brought to you by the following people host Rob Dunwoot, host Tom Merritt, producer Roger Chang. Video producer Joe Coons, producer at large Anthony Lemmles, social media producer and moderator Zoe Deadarding. Our mods, speed master W. Scottus 1, bio cow, cotton kippers, Steve Gaurama, Paul Reese, Matthew J. Stephens and JD Galaway.

1:12:07Modern video hosting by Dan Christensen, music provided by Martin Bell and Dan Looters, art by Lynn Peralta, a cast ad support from Ali Gallo, Patreon support from Bobby Wagner. Our guest this week was Trisha Hersberger and thanks to all our patrons who make the show possible. This show is part of the FrogPants Network. Get more at frogpants.com. Diamond Club hopes you have enjoyed this program. Hello, I'm Monica Reinagle, host of the Nutrition Diva podcast. Summer is here and with it, the hot and sticky weather. A morning working in the garden or maybe on the golf course can leave you more depleted than you realize. And plain water isn't always the most efficient way to restore the balance. That's where liquid IV comes in. Its science-backed formula is clinically proven to hydrate faster than water alone. Whether you're exercising, playing outside or simply surviving a summer heat wave, it's an easy way to stay hydrated.

1:13:12Shop now at liquidiv.com, liquidiv, hydration that goes wherever life takes you. Hey everyone, it's Chris Galboh here, host of the Side Hustle School podcast. This episode is powered by AT&T Business. In my early days, I did some of my best work in parked cars or coffee shops. But when I landed my first big contract, I realized I couldn't bet my future on a public connection that cuts out if someone turns on a blender. As a small business owner, you're already wearing at least 10 hats. You shouldn't have to be your own IT department as well. That's why I rely on AT&T Business. They keep your connectivity reliable, so you have one less thing to worry about. Powered by AT&T Business, built to work. Get AT&T Business at business.ATT.com