Dissecting the Defense

0:00Welcome to the Chasedown Podcast, part of the Cavs Media Family, I'm your host, Justin Rowan. The Chasedown is presented by Fubo, the official streaming partner of the Cavs. But over 350 channels of live sports and TV including fan-dose sports network without cable. And no commitment, try for free at FuboTV.com slash calves. Since we last recorded the Cavs, split their games against the Orlando Magic and the Miami Heat, disappointing loss against the Heat, just did not come to play in that one and joining me today to discuss that and to talk about their defense as of late, my co-host Carter Rodriguez. Carter, how are you doing buddy? I'm doing good. I mean, I think we're definitely like, I feel like the season has a couple like things that you might define as dog days. I think we're in the dog days of the end of the season of Q4, so to speak.

1:04We're deep in two four for left. And it just kind of feels like we're not going to get a great picture as to what's the team is, you know, like they, I thought they played better against Orlando than Kenny seemed to. Yeah. For what it's worth. He was very frustrated. I don't think his post game comments about defense were based on one game, but I thought they were fine against Orlando and, you know, obviously very, very bad for three of the four quarters against Miami, you know, down a lot of guys and down some legs, they just didn't look very sharp at all physically in that game. And, you know, it's just this weird situation where, um, right when you think the corner is going to get turned and Jarrett's on his way back and, hey, we got Max back, then, you know, Jalen sprains his toe and Dean gets hurt and warmups like that was come on

2:08ridiculously unfortunate, right? And for a team that's trying to see what it looks like if they can finally get everybody healthy right to get everybody into the lineup, obviously it made sense to not play Max Drews against Miami second night of a back to back. I thought some of what we saw in that that Miami game was very much second night of a back to back, right? Like I thought that that could explain some of it. I disagree a little bit with your statement that you disagree with Kenny with Orlando. I did think that that defensive performance was really, really rough. Um, I actually thought that was one of the areas of improvement for the Miami game where at least the effort level on the defensive end of the floor. I thought that that came up a lot of the same issues were there. I still wouldn't call it a good defensive performance. But I think that the compete level, at least on that end of the floor ended up being a whole lot better that the Orlando game. I, I thought it was an appropriate time for him to kind of call them out because they

3:08need to have a higher level of engagement on the defensive end of the floor, uh, in order for them to achieve the goals that they want to achieve this season. Like I, I think no question about it, that's absolutely needed here. Um, but you know, I, I've seen people really dissect, um, the comments after the Miami game where he was saying, you know, I was fine with the process. We're even down 20 at halftime. I was good with all of that. I, I almost felt like that was a situation where he's like, I got my message in with the Orlando game and even though there's things we still need to clean up with the, the Miami game, I don't need to call the guys out two nights in a row. Not only do I not need to call them out two nights in a row, the effort level did improve, at least on the defensive end of the floor. I think some of the same breakdowns were there and we can get into those a little bit later, but at least the effort level was better. I, it was a game where the calves struggled on the offensive end of the floor. Um, but I didn't feel like they looked lost offensively.

4:09It wasn't a game that caused a lot of concern for me. I guess is what I'm really getting to. Yeah, I don't know if any of these games can cause a lot of concern for me because it just doesn't feel like the team is like, I mean, the team just isn't playing great, you know, and it's so weird because they're what 14 and five with James Harden and the line up. That's a 60 win pace. Um, so like I, if I have concerns, maybe it's just that I feel like they should be playing better than they are, um, but like because of all the guys that are out, it's just so hard to like sit and be like, well, they have been mobility, Thomas Bryant minutes are going better than expected. And like, oh, yeah, they are, but, you know, it's just hard to like take much away from it because I think something's probably gone wrong. Uh, if those are lineups we're seeing in a, in a, in a postseason game, though I do think they're better equipped for, you know, one of their bigs to be out than they were in years past, because of those minutes, um, but, uh, but yeah, so it's just, yeah, I just

5:12feel like I'm a little bit in no man's land with this team, you know, there are some lineups that I, that I watch and go, hmm, interesting, you know, like the, the James Donovan Sam Max Evan lineup, that's a good lineup. Yeah, yeah, that's a lineup that can really, really hurt teams and is a really, really hard to guard, um, and like that might be something I think they, we see them roll with when healthy, but yeah, right now it just feels like an incomplete team playing incomplete basketball. Well, the funny thing is, right, when you make James Harden trade, uh, at the trade deadline, it does change the makeup of your roster to some extent, right? Like we have seen Don take a step back in the regular season sometimes, right? Like I think last season, one of the things we gave him a lot of credit for was taking a step back to really give Darious the, the reins to the offense in the regular season, right? I think he helped empower both Darious and Evan Mobley. So that's why it came to those year end conversations when we were talking about who the most impactful cows were. We said, you know, the numbers do point to Darious being the more impactful

6:18offensive player and Evan obviously being the catalyst of the defense, but you do have to give credit to Donovan for kind of taking that step back and empowering them. Now he's paired next to James Harden, who, you know, second night of a back-to-back has been through everything that you can be through as an NBA player with the exception of winning a championship. That's obviously going to be his focus, right? So to not see the same level of, like, buy in as we saw last year when this team was just rolling the competition, right? Like for all the faults that they had after the All Star break, they still had a better record and that rating than the Indiana Pacers did after the All Star break, right? Like everyone talks about the darlings of the post break. The red hot Pacers that really, you know, came on at the right time and that's why they wanted the playoffs, right? Like everyone wanted to like ascribe some morals to that. The cows even taking a step back were playing better than that. It's a little bit different now. So it leaves me in the space where kind of similar to those

7:21LeBron calves where it's like, all right, well, the character of this team, the two encore leaders of this team are guys that are going to flip the switch to some extent and everyone else is going to take cues from that. I'll always have some concerns because I do think from an offensive standpoint, I trust them to be able to flip the switch and for this to be able to click on the defensive end of the floor. I have concerns about the personnel to begin with. So when you're not making the most of the games that you have to kind of reestablish defensive communication to get on the same page there, that's going to amplify some of those concerns. So it doesn't dash my hopes of what this season could be, but from a buy-in standpoint, it's tough for me to kind of ramp myself up emotionally the same way I would have been this time last year. Yeah, it's just like it's hard to puff your chest out, I think almost more than anything. And I love to do that. Yeah, I know you do, but this team just isn't winning games

8:22convincingly. They're losing games relatively convincingly. I mean, I think I saw Miami went 10 of 11 at the rim in the fourth quarter of last night's game and we're just not really seeing it. They beat the heck out of Dallas by 33 points. But that was 13 days ago. And yeah, and lost it. Yeah, immediately after and haven't had a double-digit win sense despite playing some of the drags of the league. And then you know, you have a 10 point lost to Dallas and you have a 17 point lost in Miami. So it's like you look at the record for and four and two in their last six and go, okay, there must be playing pretty well, but like you're just not really seeing them take control of the game. And I think that's probably the most concerning part of it right now is like they're just kind of out there, you know, and I do

9:26think this is probably a good time to pivot to Jared Allen. If you're cool with it. There's some reporting out there that Kaser, I hope, and he'll be back for tomorrow's game. Upgraded to questionable. Yes, Miami. Upgraded to questionable. Yes, we do. We do. We do have a status report there. And I just kind of don't think this team works without him. And any, like I think he has become so crucial to what they do because of, you know, like on one hand, yes, like you trade Deandre, so you get a little bit smaller in trading for Keon and Dennis. So you, you know, really, you only have three power forward or bigger sized guys you really want to play in Dean, Jared and Evan. So just losing one of them on its own base is a bummer. And then you also look at the personnel you bring in. You bring in Keon,

10:32and Dennis and James and all three of those guys are gamblers. They like flying around and making kind of chaotic choices. And if you don't have 48 minutes of stable rim protection to protect that, then you're going to have these huge stretches where the defense just kind of falls off a cliff. And then on, and then on offense, like this team is now a pick and roll team. Yeah. They just are like Dennis needs to run pick and roll to be an effective player as your backup point card. James is a top five pick and roll player in the history of the sport. Yeah. Yeah. So, so you watch that Miami game and, you know, it's just a lot of side to side stuff. And if you're not hitting shots and Donovan and James aren't exerting the amount of energy required or don't have their legs under them to just beat their man on their own, you get this kind of stagnation, especially if Evan's going to have the game he had. And we'll talk about that later.

11:33Because obviously a hot topic coming out of that. But like, I just think we've landed in a spot where it was it's funny because you Jared is obviously one of the guys that teams are, you know, that that around the league. You hear like, come on, maybe they need to move off to make Evan the full time five and all the stuff. And it's like he suddenly is like, kind of the linchpin to the identity of the team in some ways. Because and you really feel it. I know that's probably an overstatement. But like, you just really feel his absence right now from a personnel perspective. Because they don't really have anyone who's going to do the things he does. And I think it's even more important when you do have the pairing of Donovan Mitchell and James Ardon defensive end of the floor, right? Like I think I do believe that there can be a different level of postseason buy-in when it comes to defensive attentiveness and point of attack. And I also think to be completely fair to them. Some of this sample size that we have of the two

12:33guards together is Donovan playing through the groin injury, right? Or not being at 100%. So, you know, that all factors into the equation. But when you look at it, they have a one 18.4 defensive rating when those two share the court so far this season. The only teams with a defensive rating worse than that are the King's Jazz and Wizards. Like, it's not great. It's four points worse than the the DG and Donovan defensive rating for this season. And we know that DG was playing on on one wheel for a lot of that, right? So, I think it almost gets back to what people assumed was an issue with the back court in the past where, hey, you need to have both guards or both bigs out there to cover for it when the numbers didn't really back that up. They were still pretty fine with just one of the bigs. I do think that it's really important at least for a regular season standpoint to have both of those guys out there. And I think to your point, I think it's just as important on the offensive end. I think what Jared Allen as a screen setter is able to do to make those guys live easier is incredibly

13:36important. And he puts Evan Moby in an offensive role that I think he's more comfortable in, right? Like, he is getting more volume right now. But I just always think that he excels when he's able to play a power for it. I think that's part of why, you know, even the minutes alongside Thomas Bryan have largely been positive. So, I agree with you. I said it a couple of weeks ago, and I continue to believe that the one stable identity that we can kind of count on going into the postseason is the two bigs. I think that gives you a floor on the defensive end of the floor. Not just one there together, but being able to split them up as well, right? Like, you look at the on court defensive rating forever. 48 minutes of coverage, baby. Yeah, you have 48 minutes of coverage, right? Like, Evan Moby can do a lot. If you look at the defensive rating when he's on the court, it's just over 110. It would be the fourth best defense in the league. Kazza ranked 15th defensively this season. He is a floor razor on that into the floor.

14:37Jared Allen is a floor at razor on that end of the floor. The on-off splits defensively are just about the same. So, when you can have both of them, it does cover up for the fact that you are lacking with perimeter defenders. And it also gives those perimeter defenders a little bit more confidence where they don't feel like they have to help out as much on drives. And I really do feel like some of what we're seeing on the defensive end is guys helping, you know, almost unnecessarily in a lot of these spots because they don't have a lot of confidence in the integrity of the overall defense. If I can be a little critical here, though, is, you know, there's over helping because you are worried about your team being able to contain your is man or over helping because you want to see if you can make a chaos play. And then there's a loitering in no man's land. There's a lot of two where the cat where you'll see a help defender just kind of take three steps away from his man,

15:41but not being a material position to impact a shot or a drive or an attack from the man with the ball. And it's just a one pass away, open three. Right. I'm sorry, that's not scheme. And that's not that's not like a choice. It's the absence of a choice, you know. So like, you know, while the there is definitely, you know, there are some plays where you do see some over helping. Like I think it's a, you know, the thoughtfulness right now just isn't there in the defensive end of the floor and and that's really where, because even when they're playing hard, they can just get killed because they're not applying the level of, you know, mental care, every defensive possession that you'd like to see. And sometimes it's just bad choices to or a choice that's the correct one made at the wrong time, right? And sometimes the difference between the right and wrong play on the

16:44defensive end of the floor is, did you make it a second early or a second late, right? Like I or or or on time, right? Um, I think that that can make a big, big difference. And there's instances where, you know, in that Miami game, James Harden's getting posted up and someone's coming into to dig and help out there and it leads to an easy kickout three. That's a situation you've got to feel one thing you can really count on him. You can really count on him in those spots and worst case scenario. He gets, you know, hooked. Someone spins around on him. Evan Mobley is there to provide that help defense from the paint. We don't need that to be a home run play where, hey, I dug in, I got a steal. We're going fast, break the other direction. You can have enough confidence in what your, you know, the structural integrity of your defenses. I just stained your man and not giving them an easy pass for an open three one pass away, right? And I think some of that can be a lack of familiarity. But if I could project understanding that I am not in that

17:48locker room. I am not at practice or anything like that. To me, it kind of reads as we know that we're struggling defensively. So everyone's trying to make a play, right? Like we're trying to, we're coming off a game where a coach called us out for a lack of effort. I'm trying to make a home run play. I don't necessarily feel confident in what we're doing on that end of the floor. So I'm going to try to do a little bit too much. I think there, that is an epidemic right now, where there's just too many guys trying to do too much. And sometimes that they've got the, they've got the surfing lesson and forgetting their emotional problem, you know, do less do less. Right. Well, now you're not doing anything at all. Right. And the problem is sometimes these decisions are being made at March basketball speed, right? Like I, I think that came up in the Miami game on the offensive and other floor where it didn't look like they were lost. I liked what they ran. I thought for the most part, it was the right decisions. But it was played at a speed that was going to yield 12 wide open shots rather than the regular 18 that they get, right? And I

18:52think that same kind of thing can be true of the intent that they're playing with on the defensive end of the floor. Yeah. I think I think that's spot on, you know, they're just not really, you know, even when they're in sync, they're not in sync from an intensity perspective, you know. And it's, it just haven't quite found it, you know, it's a weird stretch to watch as a fan and as someone who's trying to make sense of what's going on because like you're just not really seeing them, you know, put consistent games together. Well, especially when we know that teams move fastest when everyone's in sync and Zoom workplace keeps meetings, chats, documents, and more together, so your workflows like a perfect play. Keep work moving in Zoom ahead with Zoom workplace. All right. Let's talk about Evan Mobley. You know, hot top is coming out of the game last night. You know, it's probably his worst game of the season. I would say it's that or the Toronto

19:54game from earlier in the year where he, you know, put up seven points and nine boards in his 35 minutes and a 13 point loss. But, you know, I think those are probably your two contenders. Oh, we had the four point against Houston. Never mind. That was a disaster. That was such a disaster. There was a worse game since returning from the calf injury and that's fair. And to me, it was disappointing because I thought the Orlando game. I thought he played fantastic, right? So, tail of two nights for Evan Mobley, where the game against Orlando did not miss a shot, right? 19 points, nine rebounds, six assists. I thought he was terrific. I thought he was the lone person playing good, impactful defense on the night. A couple times where I'm still like, Evan, you don't have to leave your feet in this spot. You're, you're getting fouls a little too quickly because you're trying to do a little bit too much here. And we desperately need you to stay on the floor. And not only to, to stay on the floor, but to be able to play like you're not in foul trouble, right?

20:56Like I think that that is such an important thing. In that game, I was sitting there being like, okay, he didn't miss a shot. He goes eight for eight from the field. I thought he looked aggressive and like he wanted the ball and they weren't necessarily consistently getting them the ball. I thought that they, they let Evan down to some extent. The Miami game was interesting because I didn't get to watch the majority of it live. I kind of came in in the fourth quarter and then I had to watch it after the fact that night. And I was sitting there looking at the field goal attempt and like back to back nights where we didn't get Evan the ball. And then I watched the game. And what I saw was a guy that did not look like he wanted the basketball. There were plenty of times where the ball got to him and Miami sent two to the ball. They were trying to make him be a playmaker, get it out of his hands. And I thought he was largely making the right read in those spots. But other times he's just kind of drifting around off ball did not look like he wanted it. And the best way to get the attention of a playmaker is to move with intent and look like you want

21:59the basketball. Playmakers when they they have the alive dribble in their hands or even when they don't. The best way for them to see you in the corner of your eye is for you to make a sharp cut to to move with intent. Playmakers learn like a hive is best, you know, like a little bit of light flashes off of it and then you're seeing and you know James Harnett is someone that is going to find you in those spots. I did not think that that was the way that Evan played. I thought it was a game that he didn't play with the type of impact or intent on the defensive end of the floor as well. I thought this was one of the rare games this month really where I didn't really feel a money either into the court. I will give him a pass on this one because I think he has been playing so well as of late. But I just thought that this was a flat performance and outside of saying you got to be better and you got to play like you have the rest of the month. I don't have a whole lot to add here. Yeah, it's tough. It's tough just to say played bad, need to play better,

23:02but that's what happened in this game. You know, I will say just a little trend. You know, I don't think because we didn't talk about the Orlando game yet, I don't think it's good that a guy can go 16 of 18 in two games. That is as talented as Evan Mobley because that means he you need to find him for more shots. Yeah, like like and like you and he needs to demand more shots. Like I almost him like it's weird. It's like Bizarro Jarrett where like if Jarrett's 10 of 10 from the field, I'm like, oh yeah, great game Jarrett. Yeah, but if Evan's 10 of 10 from the field, I'm like, why is he not 14 of 19? You know, like because like that is like and like that is kind of the probably like maybe indicative of like the difference in like the way I talk about those guys ceilings and the way I want them to impact our like overall offense and the way I want them to usage. So like I did want to note that like while he was so phenomenally against Orlando, like

24:10it was another kind of second half where he stopped getting the ball. Yeah, um and I was hoping that the James Harden effect would help clean that up. Right, like that was part of the calculus, right? Like let's kind of test this theory as someone that consistently feeds the bigs. And you know, I do think that there's multiple dynamics I play here. I do think some of this is like in the Miami game. I think that that's more so on Evan than the Orlando. I thought Orlando, he flashed. He was trying to get the ball and there were just times where he wasn't found. I think one of the differences between like that that hardened and Allen run where, you know, there was a lot of obvious chemistry and stuff like that is it was simplified for James because Donovan missed time, right? And I think he's figuring out a feeling out process of when can I be assertive? When can I be a playmaker? When do I defer to Donovan Mitchell? And I think sometimes that's going to lead to these laws where the bigs aren't necessarily as involved,

25:11right? I think we saw at times when both of them were playing with Jared Allen where Jared got it going and he wasn't being fed the same way he was before. I think we've seen it at times with Evan Mobley. I know we talked about it recently, but I've been really impressed with the chemistry of James Harden and Evan Mobley. I think that they really got something going. They really figured some stuff out. They've definitely figured things out. I think that there is a figuring out process still with James Harden and Donovan Mitchell and that is always going to have some effect on how involved the big men are. So, you know, that's something I'm keeping an eye on. But I do gotta say, like one of the biggest positives for me from this back to back is the play of Donovan Mitchell. I think that he looked healthier with how he was moving around, right? Like both games he shot very well from the floor. I thought from a physical standpoint, he looks like himself. And whenever I did get frustrated, they were generally lapses of the mental variety, not the

26:11you couldn't move variety. Right. It's mistakes that we have seen before, right? Like you're just things that that'll pop up within his game more so than hey, is that growing there that didn't look like you had the same kind of pop? So from that standpoint, I think that that's really important because that does give you an opportunity if he's feeling right physically to iron out some of that stuff to continue to work on the chemistry with Harden because I think the chemistry with those two is more of a question for me than Hardens ability to play with the bigs. Donovan, I think, like from a chemistry standpoint, he's where he's going to get to with Evan Mobley and Jared Allen. I don't think that there's a lot of kind of low hanging fruit left there. No. So, it's about ironing out the guard play and how that tandem feeds off of each other so that it can work in an ecosystem with both bigs, right? So that's part of why I'm so hopeful that Jared will be back on Friday because I think it's really important for the core forward to get those reps together.

27:16Yeah. I mean, while you're sad to see no Dean, no Tyson in that game on Friday, they're already ruled out. It's just not what I need to find out right now. And like I need to find out if those four can, you know, become destroyers of worlds together. If double bigs can that was part of why I didn't protect that's part of why I didn't feel bad about the sorry. I didn't mean to talk over yeah, man, that was bad. This part of why I didn't like feel bad about the Miami game because like you're missing four of your rotation guys, right? And two of the three bigs that we feel good about in Dean and Jared, right? Like that's that's a tough tough order on the second night of a back-to-back. Yeah, I just I need to see Evan and Jared prove to me that we can protect Jonathan and James on the defensive end. And I need to see Jared and James be able to anchor lineups and

28:20Donovan and Evan be able to anchor lineups that will give me confidence that we got 48 good minutes against anybody. Yeah, because right now I'm not confident in 48 good minutes, not because I don't think it could be. It's just we haven't really seen it over any extended stretch. Yeah, you know, and we're so like it has been kind of a two steps forward one step back thing. But man, Sam, Sam, Sam still playing great. You know, there are guys I believe in on, you know, around the periphery, you know, Max, I think is showing some good minutes. He's still got he's still got concrete feet like on the defensive end of the floor, you notice that. But hey, some ups there that that put back dunk that he had against. Yeah, no, was surprising, right? And you know, it's funny like part of this too is there isn't a larger contrast in the NBA of kind

29:20of an approach from for an offense than Orlando and Miami Orlando is about as conventional as it gets on the offensive end of the floor. Miami is about as unconventional as it gets, right? And if you're going into a playoff series against Miami, you're able to game plan for it a little bit more. It's the second night of a back to back and you're coming on that Orlando game. That's a little bit more tricky as well, particularly when you are down that personnel. But I do think why I continue to focus on the defense is again, I think it's a tough question. Like, I think even if I believed in absolutely all the personnel on the defensive end of the floor, I think assembling a team this late in the year or shaking up a team this late in the year is going to make things difficult, right? I think figuring things out on the offensive end of the floor is a whole lot easier, right? Because a lot of teams are going to run a lot of the same plays or at least the actions are something that I can relate to this because, you know, when I see

30:25this type of movement from my team and I know to get them to ball here and you know, that's plug-and-play movement shooter is here and we're going to run these various different things offensively. Defense so much of it is how much can I trust in my teammate? What do I need to communicate to them? What do they need to communicate to me? How am I going to communicate it? Right? Like, it's such a feeling out process and I think it takes so much more time to figure out that offense that that is going to be kind of my biggest fear and concern going into the playoffs because the funny thing is you look back at these last few years. Defense hasn't been what's killed us in the playoffs. It's been offense even against the Indiana Pacers where there are certainly stretches of those games where defense was an issue for the series. It was not the issue was the the Cavs offense, right? Like, their defense performed better than just about every team but okay, see against Indiana. The offense just kind of fell flat. Part of do you feel like

31:25this might be the year where we do have some legitimate defensive issues in the playoffs? That's a great question. I mean, I think the answer is how healthy are the two bigs? No, okay. Because like, you know, that's why part of me just feels kind of stupid being like, why is in the attention to detail good enough on March 25th? Because like, you know, if we do all this hand-ringing and then they just they just pay better attention in a playoff series like, does that does that make us, does that make this stupid that we were doing this and worrying about this? I'd love for that to be the case. Yeah. Because the thing is like, I'm going to spit this theory out and you can tell me if it, tell me if it sticks or not. Like, it's not like the Cavs run a crazy complicated defense. No. You know, like, their responsibilities are not, like, they are not running, they have not run a scheme that is high degree of difficulty but high ceiling. They tend

32:30to focus on raising the floor. You know, switching is a floor raising defense where your responsibility just aren't as high mentally as you know, you're mostly just going to give up the switch and try to keep your shell intact. And that's still what they do for the most part. You know, obviously, when you get in a rotation, you know, all everything's out the window and you got to make quick decisions and things like that. But like, I don't know if I'm seeing this team like fall apart in rotation as much as they're falling apart at the core principle. Like, they're artificially lowering their floor by with these lapses. So it's like hard for me to like feel like, well, they can't do it in a playoff setting because it's like, I'm not, it's not like, it's just so hard to evaluate, I feel. I think the best contrast for that is looking at the start of the season, right? Where the Cavs had one of the highest pickup points defensively in the NBA, right? Like, they were applying full core pressure in a way that they hadn't really before. They were leading the leading

33:32into flexions and they were playing this really aggressive gambling style of defense. And we had questions about, hey, do we have the personnel for this? Like, this kind of defensive scheme. It feels like we're getting, we have over indexed from too much of in the shell last season to maybe we're trying a little too hard to be the Indian basers from a disruption standpoint. I don't feel like that's the case anymore. I agree with you. I think that they are largely playing a scheme that works for the personnel and it's been effort and execution more than anything. And sometimes the efforts there, the execution is, you know, at an appropriate level and there's just miscommunications, right? Like, I think some of that is always going to mix in. And when the opponents are hitting shots at a higher rate, sometimes good defense is going to feel like bad. So you're going to see a couple possessions in a quarter where there's miscommunications and you're like, man, that looks really terrible. And then you have good defense on a couple plays, but they hit the shot.

34:34And from a fan experience, you're going to end up feeling worse about the defense than is probably reality. I think there's maybe some of that. But I do think, you know, just from a personnel standpoint, this team isn't as equipped to kind of hold up on the perimeter as they were last year. No, they're not. I mean, you can look at the personnel and even a guy like Keon Ellis, who's been so fun is not a perimeter stopper. That's not his game. He is not a locked down defender. That's not, uh, and they just, you know, they're playing a lot of guys who can get turned on, you know, like, areas even was a guy who got shot over more than he got blown by. Yeah. Um, yeah, you're hiding. We expand. Doesn't matter as much if you weren't in front of them, right? Like, and sure. And I think that that is something that we're seeing, right? Like to your point with Keon, if you look at the basketball index perimeter isolation tracking data right now, he doesn't rate out as a net positive. Like he is basically break even, but he's barely negative. And you look

35:40at the guys this year, that rate is positive. We, we only have a handful of them. So Jalen Tyson, Dean Wade, Sam Merrill and Dennis Schroeder. And Schroeder's not rating out as a big positive, right? Like, so, uh, and in terms of percentile, this actually is probably a good way to break it down. Keon, who's barely a negative is the 68 percentile, right? So people always see 68 percent. And if you're like me, you're like, Hey, that's, that's better than I did in college here. Like, you know, the 68 percent is better. Dustin, we need to talk about your college career. 68 is very bad. I'm going for comedy here. Carter, come on. Um, but like to give you an idea, that's kind of where the break even point is, right? Like the majority of the league kind of struggles or at least is somewhat of a net negative in perimeter isolation defense. Jalen Tyson, 92nd percentile, Dean 90th, Sam 84th and Schroeder at 81st, right? Last year, your net positives on defense, you had a whole lot more of them. Uh, DeAndre Hunter was 87th. Isaac Okoro was 86.

36:44DG was 85th. Javante was 85th. Dean Wade was 84th. Max Truce was 81st. Don't the majority guys want to know a little thing about Justin Rowan on his on our on our run down. He has Javante in the 80th 85th percentile and green in the 85th percentile. He actually wrote Javante down twice. I, you know, so slash that one out. I'm proud of you for not. I'm proud of you for not slipping up on the bottom. I'm glad I didn't say it, but you still had to call me out for it. I appreciate that. That was really funny. Accountability is the best ability. All right. This is the kind of 68th percentile, uh, uh, uh, rundown planning. Attention to detail. Never the strong suit here. Um, but like a lot, the majority of those names are not on the roster this year. Max Truce obviously has physical limitations. So he can't really play to that level. Um, is he even in the database yet, by the way? I think he might be. I would need to kind of pull that back up, but probably not. I don't think that he would fall on their

37:44most. The sample would definitely be insufficient actually. Yeah. Or at the very least insignificant, right? And, you know, James is at the, the 60th percentile when I looked at it last, uh, Donovan's down at the 34th. Um, the, the only kind of calf closed him as Tyrese Proctor at 30 seconds. So wasn't Donnie in the like 60th last year, uh, not last year, but actually at kind of the, I think it was like December ish this year. He had bumped up to that. So it's kind of come back down to earth. So, um, we just don't have a lot of guys that that hold up in those situations, right? And did it to be fair when you're talking about pure isolation possessions? You don't see tons of that in real quick, real quick, because you didn't mention either Evan or Jared, were they, did you not, were you just looking at wing defenders? They, they don't rate out as net positives for, for like the league. Like they would rate out positionally, probably like above average for their position. But in terms of like what this stat rates is not only, you know,

38:45does your opponent make or miss the shot in the situation? It's how much, how often do you get them to give the ball up, right? Like kind of that shot suppression. Uh, do you impact the shot quality in those ways? Biggs are never going to rate out as above average in those types of situations. So, you know, it's just, it's a different group from a personnel standpoint. And I, I still do believe that there is another level of buy-in that you can see come playoffs. But I, I do think it's going to be a bit of an uphill battle. I think what I'm, can I, can I make a little devil's advocation point though? One thing that's nice, you look at Jalen, uh, Dean and Sam as three of your better defending role players on the season. You can build the boat out of a seven-man rotation if you really have to. Yeah. So like, you know, and Kenny, you know, all but threatened the team after that Orlando win. Then like, yeah, the guys who guard will be the ones who get to play. Like, if you need to do seven-man rotation with 10 spare minutes to an eighth

39:50because you're not getting the defensive metrics you need out of, uh, out of max or, um, or, or some of the other players. Like, I, you know, you've got the option. Yeah. You have the option. And even Keon, like being at break even, like, you can get away with that particular. I'm fine with break even Keon because of all the chaos plays he generates on defense. Yeah. myself as well. So like, so like, you know, it'll be a real money where your mouth is situation. But the nice thing about, you know, Jalen and Sam, uh, at their best, specifically and Dean at his best is like, ideally, those are guys who are not ruining your offense by being out there either. Yeah. Um, you know, so like, and I do believe that I'll line up with the top four guys should perform well. Yeah. Like, and well enough. And part of the recent struggles is Jared is out, right? Um, Jalen Tyson when he was playing was playing through that, that ankle injury. So that's going to impact his effectiveness here, right? Like, which I'm worried about the toe or, uh, you know, a return. Yeah. Cause that one's hard to play on. Absolutely, right? Dean had been dealing with

40:54that ankle as well, right? The, the ankle that he re-injured in, in pregame warm-ups. So that's going to have an impact on their overall effectiveness too. So when you're limited in terms of the number of bodies that are capable of doing it at the best of times, that just puts you in a really, really tough position. So I, I do want to clarify though, like when I'm expressing these concerns, I don't think like any of this is a fatal flaw necessarily, but this is the type of thing that can take a five or six game series into a six or seven game series. And anytime you let a series go further, you leave yourself vulnerable to things like shot variants, right? Like you can have a night where you generated perfectly good looks and they just didn't go down, right? And would you pick this Cavs team to sweep anyone right now? Um, that they might play in the first round. I, I think yes, right? Because I think they could sweep Toronto. I think they could sweep. Oh, would you pick them? Maybe against Toronto

41:59just out of hate. But my brain probably not. I would probably give every five. I have a gut feeling that I'm going to be picking Cavs and six in the first round. Pretty much no matter who they play just if it's Orlando, I would say six. Yeah. I think they're going to need some time. I, like, I even like, this isn't just like a habits or a, that's not like a sneak dish as much as like, we just haven't seen this group get properly tested when they're giving it. They're all and at full focus. And I think there's going to be some kinks to work out. Yeah. Yeah. And like, I, it's weird. I think it's more likely they like, you know, take like Detroit in five in a weird way than like some of these teams just because like if they get through a playoff series and get themselves in rhythm, I like, I think the ceiling of this team is so high. That's like a half a way, man. We could be a totally different team, right? Like I'm with you. It's just a weird, it's just a weird, I feel so weird about this team, Justin. And like, I almost, I'm almost wondering

43:04if I need to like start putting myself into a LeBron Cavs mindset where it's like the regular season just isn't going to mean a tremendous amount. It's not going to be terribly, like there won't be a lot of correlation, I think in a lot of ways, because so what we're seeing now, to what we're going to see in a month. And that makes it really hard to analyze. I get what you're saying. The reason I can't get there yet is because I haven't seen this team when more than one game in the second round, right? And even adding James, I don't mean like from an expectation. No, but I just mean from like an ability to flip the switch. And like, if I'm being honest with myself, I don't know if I had that level of confidence even going in 2015, right? Like when you think that's kind of what I mean, though. Yeah, like that first round in 2015, even though as a sweep, each of those games was pretty close, could have gone either way, right? Do you think back to the second round? David Black calling a timeout that wasn't there, right? Like if you get a technical there, you might have gone down three one to the bulls, right? Like you might be in

44:09that type of situation where you're going to need some luck or some time for this to all gel. I, it's, it's a tricky, tricky thing, man. Yeah. Yeah. And we're just not going to, you know, we're just not going to get to know, by the way, Charlotte's beaten the pants off in New York. This is a crazy run. I just can't believe how weird the yeast is. I would not pick a sweep against Charlotte. That team is going to shoot the hell out of the ball. Yeah. Brother, I'm so thrilled we don't have to play them. Hey, don't want to deal with that. He might be speaking too soon, man. That, that, that bottom, you know, five to ten is bunched up. There are only two losses back of the five seated Lena Hawks, which by the way, that's crazy too. Yeah. That, that, that is nuts, right? And I, I do, you know, if I could have my way, I would like to stay on this side of the bracket, right? And on the one hand, you could say, you know, if you're in the Hawks of one 14 of the last 15 games, bro, the little food guys is going on in this league. It's a little

45:10fugazi. If you look at the schedule, but that's, that's a story. We had the, we had a fugazi schedule and we are not 14 and one. Yeah, but they got something approved, man. Like we, we, this team clearly does not feel that same sense of urgency right now. And I'm just saying, they're the leagues in a, the league feels like it's a little drunk right now in the month of March. You know what they're doing? They're making it hard for podcasts. There's to pretend that 22 teams are tanking, right? You know, although the lotto teams are tanking, the playing teams are stealth tankers, the teams with that don't have home quarter are all so sneaky potential tankers. No, don't, don't get me worked up, brother. Oh, I, I, I, I absolutely love to. I, I just, I just love that every single night. There, there's always a, a winner and a tanker in the NBA, apparently, it's disgusting, disgusting. But you're, you're right. I, I think it's going to take time. And like for me, I always try to find what is the optimistic side of what I believe realistic

46:16is. And, and for, for me, I think it's, this team can figure it out. I just think it's going to take time to gel. I think there's going to be bumps along the roads and we will ultimately see can they flip the switch and can they get into the appropriate gear at the appropriate time come playoffs? Yeah. I'm excited to see the top four guys a hole again. Yeah. That's for damn sure. Crossing my fingers that we, we see a healthy, healthy calves tomorrow, at least when it comes to those guys. Big thanks to everyone that tuned in live on the YouTube. We appreciate you guys, make sure you like and subscribe. Click that notification bell so you know when we're going live. If you're listening via podcasting on support, leave us rating. We review, subscribe. I'm subscribed. Re-subscribe and help cook those books. If you want to be part of Chase Downs' exclusive Discord chats and they screen each other via the chasedownpotachima.com. However you choose to support us, we really do appreciate it. Be sure you guys are staying safe out there. Until next time, go cast.