Dirty Helen

You're listening to Milwaukee Mafia, your podcast dose of Wisconsin Mafia and True Crime History.

Hey Milwaukee Mafia Patreon members, we're back with another episode, I'm Eric.

I'm Gavin.

Gavin, we got a question for you here.

Sweet.

And this question I'm going to read it exactly as it's written so it might sound a little weird.

Sure, where it might just be in my head.

I was told of a Milwaukee legend by a fellow at Arts Performance Center.

Silkan Waternell, downtown years ago, her name was Dirty Helen.

I believe he stated that she was very active here in the prohibition area and had quite the reputation.

Okay.

So hopefully you understand that because I don't even really think there was a question in there.

Yeah, maybe that wasn't really a question.

Okay, so first, like to clear up the, like, so the Performing Arts Center, I don't know, I don't really know what the Performing Arts Center was.

But apparently it's now been replaced by Silkan Water, which is still a strip club and that would be in Water Street.

Okay.

That's what Silkan Water is.

Okay, gotcha.

Gotcha.

That makes a lot more sense when you clarify that.

No, I know.

But yeah, that's what that is.

But Gavin's underwear is hanging up in the rafters in there.

That's not me.

No, I've never been to a silk, but I'm aware of them.

So the question, like I said, maybe it's not even really a question, but it mentions Dirty Helen.

And so I have with me today this fancy book called Good Time Party Girl.

And I'm going to read the bottom part of it.

The notorious life of Dirty Helen Cromwell.

Yeah.

So there's a whole book written on this.

Yeah.

So Dirty Helen or Helen Cromwell actually wrote an autobiography, which she called Dirty Helen.

And it had been auto print for a long time.

But the fine folks at Farrell House Press, they, they, I apparently they got the rights to it because they reprinted it.

And they added a few notes in here, kind of like clarifying some things.

But they basically left it as is.

So Helen tells her story and it's, she's not shy.

Oh really?

She is not shy.

She is a, she is a call girl.

She's very open about that.

She has a very foul mouth.

And there's that.

And actually, so we're going to do something on the Patreon that I don't think we've done before.

And I hope nobody gets really mad about this.

But we're going to read an audio.

We're going to make it an audio book.

No, we're not.

No, we're not.

I'm not going to read extensively out of here.

But no, because, because there's so much material here.

And because I'm only halfway through the book, we're going to make this a two-part episode.

Oh, okay.

How's that?

It's perfect.

Yeah, the people of the Patreon are like, I'm not paying for this.

I'm only getting an half an episode, but I'm sorry.

I'm sorry.

I don't worry.

I'll make it worthwhile for you.

So, um, so the story here, the book starts out with, uh, it's, she's starting at the beginning, you know, when you write a book,

you're listening to really great people's attention first before you really get back to the beginning.

And she starts off with a story of, of herself, Dirty Helen, hanging out with Al Capone.

Which if anybody knows my feelings on Al Capone, I'm instantly like, oh, no.

So, so that right off the bat, I'm like, okay.

All right.

You're going to have to show me this one.

But that's how she gets your attention.

It's by saying she's hanging out with, you know, Al Capone and his, his boss, John Torio, which, you know, I'll get into that.

Why it may or may not have happened.

But anyway, so she's born in Cicero, Indiana in 1886.

Uh, her family is just, you know, a middle class that are farming family.

She's really not much of, uh, not much of anybody.

Her family is not much of anybody.

It's just a regular person.

So she's growing up and, you know, in a small town, she lives a pretty peaceful life.

But then she starts getting interested in boys.

And her family, especially her father, you know, is kind of protective about who she likes or doesn't like.

And she ends up really liking this one guy.

And they, uh, they start meeting secretly down by the river.

Ooh.

And the parents get scared.

Parents are like, we do not approve of this guy.

Uh, so please stop seeing him, but you keep seeing him.

So what do they do?

They send her away to go live with her cousin for a little while.

Because the cousin is, is a little bit better off.

She's got better education.

They think of her as a very proper girl.

And they're like, you can live with your cousin for a little while.

Your cousin will show you how to be a good girl and not.

And let me guess the cousin is just a complete party girl.

Man.

It's like you read the book.

So she goes, yeah, she goes with, with the cousin for a while.

And the cousin, like on the surface, like to her parents is very nice and everything.

But yeah, she's going out to these hotel parties.

And again, I don't know how accurate the book is because some of the stuff is definitely exaggerated.

But apparently she's hooking up with, the cousin is hooking up with different guys right in the left.

She's very strongly interested in this son of a department store owner.

So he's well off.

But they're not exclusive.

So she's still, you know, going around.

And so Helen kind of learns from the cousin that, hey, a good way to get boys to like you.

And to spend money on you is to just sleep with all of them.

So probably not the less your parents intended.

But that's what she learns from her cousin.

She ends up moving back home.

And the guy who she was interested in, she ends up marrying.

So that plan didn't actually work very well because she ended marrying him anyway.

His name is Phil.

And Phil actually, they move to Cincinnati.

And he gets a pretty decent job.

He owns a, he owns a tavern.

He gets to meet some of the nicer people in town.

Some of the, not nicer, but some of the wealthier people in town.

And he moves up and he gets a better tavern.

And they're happy.

They got two kids.

They're doing great.

But then Phil meets the wealthiest, most successful prostitute in Cincinnati.

And he falls madly in love with her.

Her name is Florence.

And Helen says, oh!

And she hates it.

She finds out, like at first, you know, she doesn't know, but she figures it out.

Is she a prostitute at this point in time?

No.

At this point, she's, she's just a wife and a mother.

Nothing, nothing at all like that.

And so she goes and she knows, she finds out about Florence.

And then one time Florence, like actually calls the house and asks for Phil.

And Helen answers the phone.

She goes, is this Florence?

The Florence is like, oh, you know about me.

And Helen's like, yeah, bitch.

She's like, yeah, bitch.

But you know, she's like, yeah, I know who you are.

And then things get really tense.

And it gets to the point where Helen actually goes over to Florence's apartment,

scratches up her face, steals her jewelry and throws her down a flight of stairs.

Wow.

Yes.

But Phil doesn't leave her.

Phil stays with Florence anyway.

And Helen reaches his point where she's like, I think I should probably be a divorcing Phil.

Because if he's just going to spend all his nights hanging out with this Florence,

I mean, what's the point of being married?

But here's the kicker.

Although Helen was not raised Catholic, Phil was.

So they got married in a Catholic church.

And Phil says, I'm sorry, I'm Catholic, I will never grant you a divorce as long as I live.

And I know what you're thinking.

I know what you're thinking.

This is no disrespect to all our wonderful Catholic listeners.

But yes, why is it not okay to get a divorce but perfectly okay to be spending all your time with a prostitute?

And I don't know.

And why would you want to stay married?

Well, the way it's explained it here and again, this doesn't tell Phil's side of the story.

He might have a very different version.

But according to Helen, it's just strictly the Catholic thing that divorces like the ultimate.

No, no.

So you know, anything else you can ask for forgiveness, but divorce is big.

No.

So anyway, so Helen goes into the business not for herself, but just kind of working in like address alterations.

She's very good at it.

She gets very wealthy.

She reaches a point where she's like, well, if Phil's going to do this and he's not going to divorce me, how about I do the same thing to Phil?

So she starts going on dates with guys and there, you know, buying her drinks, buying her dinner, taking her dancing.

And you know, she catches on very quickly that they're spending all this money on her.

Not just because they like her company.

And she's okay with that.

She actually follows through with this.

And it gets to the point where on one of these dates, she ends up with a very well-known tavern owner in town.

And he takes her out and they go to the same club where Phil and Florence are.

That's an awkward moment.

Oh, yeah.

I'm here with the prostitute and there's my wife with another bar owner in town who's like my friend because we're all buddy bar owners.

So that's weird.

But at this point, I mean, she's like, sorry, Phil, you know, it is what it is.

Now there's some strange things that happen to her while she's working at this dress store.

A guy comes in and asks for a dress for his wife.

He has all the measurements and stuff so he knows what size he needs.

And he is willing to pay way too much for it.

And in the book, this character's name is Eddie Mack and Eddie Mack is not his real name.

So she discloses she's going to call him Eddie Mack, but that's not really in the name.

Right.

There's times where she uses other names, but she's pretty clear about when she's using fake names.

And Eddie Mack turns out Eddie Mack is very wealthy and he's very wealthy because he's a bank robber.

So she ends up becoming really good friends with this guy.

And actually in the book, in the notes, the editors think they know who Eddie Mack really was.

And he's not a well-known name or anything, so I won't even bother with that.

But they think they know who the real guy is.

Whether the stories are all true or not, at least the guy that he's apparently based on.

So they end up becoming really good friends.

They never have a sexual relationship.

They're just always friends.

But he becomes so close that he pays for children to go to boarding school.

They spend vacations together.

They're very close.

Until finally, Eddie Mack is killed.

Yes.

Because you know what?

Turns out being a bank robber is a dangerous business.

Well, I thought you were going to say Phil killed him.

No.

No, not a big circle like that.

No.

See now in the book, he's run down by a car.

And it's suspected of being a hit, like a mob hit.

But in the true version, if it's the same guy that the editors think that it is.

In the true version, he's shot.

He's not run down.

So there's a discrepancy there.

And the years are a little bit off.

So I don't mean, I don't know well enough that, you know, if she's just fludging things in here or what.

But either way, the point is, is like, when he's killed, it's suspected that he's making all this money robbing banks and somebody isn't getting paid.

So they're upset with him.

So, yes.

So she knows Eddie Mack.

That doesn't go all that well.

Her children, she very rarely sees because they're in the boarding school.

So she's out doing her own business.

She moves in New York for a while and takes up residence in a hotel.

She becomes friends with the hotel detective.

And here's a, here's a history of things for people.

I don't think this is still a thing.

Maybe it is.

Someone can correct me.

But it used to be that like major hotels had a job called the hotel detective.

Okay.

And it was like, it was like the security detail for the place.

And they would monitor things.

And if you checked into the hotel and you had valuables on you, you'd put them in the hotel safe.

And this guy would oversee the safe.

So...

I bet you that still exists in some very high-end hotels.

It probably does.

I just, you know, I go to the best western.

Yeah.

I'm pretty sure the best western doesn't have that.

Yeah.

I mean, and to be honest, the best western is not even the best western.

It's like a mediocre western.

But so she becomes good friends with the house detective, the hotel detective.

And he essentially becomes her pimp.

So people will like check into the hotel.

And if they're, you know, wealthy, good gentleman, guys who aren't going to rough her up or anything.

He says, hey, I got somebody up on his floor.

You should meet.

And they end up working for years apparently.

I think it's like four years they end up doing this.

So is this the first point where she really, truly crosses into prostitution?

Openly, yes.

He's okay.

Because prior to that, she's going out on dates with guys and getting money that way.

Yeah.

They're just spending money on her per se not paying her for.

Right.

Right.

And so it's, you know, it gets to depend on how you define it.

Because she was doing prostitution before, but it wasn't like she was like advertising it.

And now she's basically has a guy advertising it.

So yeah, I don't know how much difference that makes.

But it's definitely, she's not meeting guys anymore.

Guys are just coming to her.

Yeah.

So that's going on.

Really the last major thing is she meets a guy who in, at least in the book, he's called Bob.

He's never given a last name, but he's called Bob.

And Bob.

Now, so she's born in 1886.

Now we're up to about 1918, which is according to the halfway point in the book.

All right.

And he's just, he's a guy who's just got out of World War I.

He got mustard gas.

He's about 10 years younger than her, but they hit it off immediately.

And so he's like, Helen, Helen, I'm marrying me, marrying me.

And she's like, but you know what I do.

And he goes, I know, but I love you.

And she's like, I love you too.

And so for a while, she actually gives it up, not because he asked her to, but just because she really likes this Bob guy.

And they do end up getting married, although she has to get married under a fake name because she's still married to Phil.

Even though they haven't been together for like 10 years at this point.

Yeah.

She's still on paper, married to Phil.

So she has to use a fake name to get married to Bob.

And it's a, it's a kind of a stressful time because he got mustard gas.

And I don't know exactly, you know, how that works, but apparently he has to regularly go in for treatments because his lungs are all messed up.

And he does eventually die.

So it's not the longest they get married fairly quickly because they know right off the bat as time is limited.

But he ends up living longer than they expect.

And it's pretty happy, but then he dies.

And yeah, I don't know.

I assume that's true that that really happened, but like because his name's just Bob, he never has a last name.

Like this really very little, it'd be very hard to verify that.

And they don't have any notes in there where they trace back like who he possibly could have been.

Because not on that guy.

No, that's weird.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's the thing like because she got married under the fake name, it would be hard to even find the marriage.

No, I don't think it'd be impossible because if the book is accurate, it does say that he died in Chicago and it actually gives the day that he died.

So I think it's possible.

Now the biggest hurdle is his name actually Bob.

But if his name is actually Bob, I think you could figure out who is about the right age named Bob who died on this day in Chicago.

I think it could be done.

Well, did I miss it because you just said that he died in Chicago.

So at some point they got how did they end up in Chicago?

Did you say that?

No, no, but I should.

I should because this is actually this leads us to the last part we're going to talk about.

This is what I'm going to end on.

Okay.

So they meet in New York because she's living in this hotel in New York.

Right.

But his family lives in Chicago and the family is very well off.

She doesn't even really know that.

But she finds out they're very well off because his family owns this business where they import oriental rugs.

Which, you know, I'm not in the oriental rug market.

But apparently, you know, that's big, big money.

Yeah.

So they're doing very good and all the people in Chicago who want oriental rugs go through these people.

So he's back in Chicago periodically.

They'll go back and forth between New York and Chicago.

And sometimes they'll go back to Indiana because that's like where her family is from.

But when he's healthy enough to actually work, he's in Chicago.

Okay.

And so here's the thing.

I'm not even going to put them that I'm reading out of the book in case people don't do that.

Actually one pretty smooth.

Yeah, I did.

Okay.

So then he threw the business.

His family knows Jim Colosimo.

And I'm probably saying the name wrong.

But anyway, they know they know him.

Big Jim Diamond Jim got these different nicknames.

And he's kind of like the head of the mob in Chicago.

Okay.

At this time around 1920.

And they're good friends because he's his wealthy gangster and he wants oriental rugs everywhere.

So one day they're in Chicago and they're like, hey Helen, you want to go to have dinner with with Big Jim?

And she's like, oh heck yeah.

And Big Jim just got married to this showgirl named Dale Winter.

And apparently Helen knew her in New York because they used to go bargain shopping together.

Okay.

I don't know again.

I don't know if any of this is true.

But that's what she says.

And they so they go and they have dinner and they're like, oh Helen.

Oh, hey, it's been years.

And so they become friends with with Big Jim, who's then murdered three weeks later.

Okay.

And taking over after he's killed is John Torio and Al Capone.

Okay.

So then she becomes friends with John Torio and Al Capone.

There's parts of this that I find suspicious.

Now her explanation is actually pretty good in all fairness.

It's pretty good.

Most like Al Capone stories like I think are full of a lot of BS.

And this one I think is definitely exaggerated.

But I don't think it's impossible because if it's true

that her husband's family was in the Oriental Rug business,

I could believe that they know wealthy criminals.

That's actually that part doesn't seem like a stretch to me.

So I could see that connection being legit.

The part that's strange to me is when she meets Al Capone for the first time in the book.

It's 1922.

Okay.

They're out to dinner.

He's there.

John Torio is there.

A couple other guys are there.

And she's sitting next to Al and they're talking and she goes,

oh, you're the famous Al Capone.

Or sometimes people call you Al Brown and this and that.

And they're laughing and they're joking and this and that.

And the part that I take issue with is in 1922.

He is not the famous Al Capone.

Right.

But he's not the famous.

He hasn't done anything yet.

Right.

He's just a guy.

Right.

There's really no reason she should have any idea who he is.

But she knows who he is and knows that he goes by Al Brown,

which is like his fake name he uses on businesses.

And like, that's the part I'm questioning.

Like that.

Had they just met for dinner and then later on they go out.

They go out and they see a band.

And she's like, this band is great.

Who is that?

And then John Torio is like, it's a new guy I got.

His name is Louis Armstrong.

And she's like, wow, he's amazing.

And I'm like, okay.

So how you just met Al Capone and you're like best friends.

And you go to a club and you meet this brand new star.

Louis Armstrong.

I'm like, okay.

I mean, she runs into a lot of people.

Like she ends up with like a guy who owns a major lumber company

in Canada.

And just she's meeting a lot.

And granted, she's a high-end call girl.

So that's not like out of the room.

But there's a lot of stuff that's just completely unverifiable.

And I'm like, I don't know.

And it could be a simple like your Al Capone example.

Yeah.

She might, that might not have been how the conversation actually went.

She might have gone there and not had any idea who he was.

Right.

But by the time she wrote this, you know, maybe she tried to jazz it up a little bit.

Oh, yeah.

I knew who this famous guy was.

Even though at that point, he wasn't really even famous.

Right.

And that's kind of how I feel about it is I don't know if she met him or not.

But I find it believable.

I think that's certainly possible.

I don't think that that could be completely made up, but it could be real.

But yeah, that's my general thought is she's writing this like after she is retired.

So like, you know, 40 years later.

And yeah, she's going to puff up the Al Capone part of it.

Part of it.

Yeah.

So I don't think the version she tells is probably very close to the truth.

Mm-hmm.

But there may be some truth in there.

Yeah.

And like, what did you say that she goes and meets Louis Armstrong like immediately after dinner or something?

Yeah, because they go out to a club.

And I will say like if she's making this up, she's pretty good at it.

Because I didn't do a lot of fact checking on the right now.

I'm more focused on just reading the book.

But I've checked a couple things.

I'm like, is this even like believable?

And it's true that Louis Armstrong did make his debut in the year at the club that they went.

So it is true in 1922.

The club that she allegedly went to is the club that he debuted at.

So even if she's making it up, she at least knows the story.

She could be doing one of two things.

It could have just been a dumb coincidence and it actually did happen.

Or two, she also knows how to use Google.

Well, I guess Google didn't exist when she probably wrote this book.

Well, that's the thing.

The book originally came out in the 60s.

And that's what impresses me.

It's like, yeah, I can do an easy Google search.

I'm like, oh, how did Louis Armstrong get his start?

But she's sitting at home basically retired.

I don't know how easy it is to look some of that up.

In her retirement, by the end of the start, we didn't talk about it at all yet.

But by the end of her life, she lives in Milwaukee.

She doesn't live in Milwaukee.

None of this is relevant to the podcast.

But it's getting there.

There's even going to be an Appleton part of the story.

But really?

Yes.

Cool.

But yeah, I don't know what the resource is worth.

If it was as simple as going to the public library and being like,

okay, I got to talk about me and Louis Armstrong.

Let me look up Louis Armstrong.

Maybe that's all she had to do.

But I have to say that this stuff fits together in the timeline pretty well.

And I would assume because again, but she's like the prostitute forest gump.

So I don't know how true some of it is.

Yeah, I would say that like, it's all very reasonable.

But yeah, you're right.

It seems like really, really strange that in that sort of a period such big things would happen.

Yeah.

Nothing impossible happens in this book.

Like everything here is entirely possible.

But it's just for it to happen to one person.

For every one person seems unlikely.

And as anybody who's, I mean, if you're willing to pay for the Patreon,

you've probably listened to enough episodes where I'm always questioning stuff.

So it could be 100% true.

But it's just like, I want to see the facts.

And I don't know.

But it does make for a really great read.

I'll say that if nothing else, it's a great read.

I'll summarize the second half next time.

But yeah, if you want to hear stories about a lady going around,

meeting all kinds of high class business owners, stock brokers,

living a wild life and not being shy about it.

Like I keep my language pretty clean on here, but she does not.

There's a lot of f-bombs in this book.

So I assume you were familiar with her before.

I had heard of her.

Okay, but did you know anything about her?

She just basically knew the name.

So I knew the name and I knew that she was like a famous call girl.

But that was about all I knew, because I don't know when this book came out.

And I assume she's gone at this point, right?

Oh, she's very, yeah, very gone.

Because she was probably really old when she wrote this book.

Yeah, okay, so this book came out in 2019.

So this book is still fairly new.

But that's the reprint.

It's the reprint.

But the reprint.

The original version came out in the 60s.

But like I said, it was out of print.

So I was aware of its existence.

But to like get a copy, you'd feel like a hundred bucks or something.

I'm like, that's not going to happen.

So I didn't have a copy.

And then yeah, Ferrell has reprinted it.

And like I said, I don't know how they got the rights to do it.

But they, but they talk to like her grand children and stuff.

So they actually interviewed the family while putting the book together.

So they, they put some effort into it.

Well, in, in how long is copyright?

Well, that's what I'm not sure about.

Yeah, I'm not sure how long copyrighted.

I feel like it's longer than the 60s.

It is, it is longer than the 60s.

But the thing of it is is like if, I don't know who the original publisher was.

But like if they don't exist, they're clearly not going to enforce their copyright.

Yeah, I suppose if there's nobody to sue you for stealing like you,

you can kind of almost do it.

Yeah, if you printed it in the 60s and then you went out of business.

And there's no like trace of you anywhere.

Yeah.

So yeah, I don't know that the, I assume that this Ferrell house is a very well-known publisher.

So I'm sure they know what they're doing.

They're not, they're not doing anything under illegal or anything by doing it.

Right.

Right. Like I see it.

And I wouldn't have even thought of reprinting it because I would have thought like,

oh, that's might still be under copyright, but they know what they're doing.

And if not, but yeah.

And you said you knew this book existed prior to this question.

I did.

I did because I have a very long Amazon wish list.

And it was on it.

Yes.

The $100 version was on it.

Yes, because while I see, I've scaled this back significantly.

But when I first started doing the mafia stuff, like I was in like 100 to 100%.

And so like when I found out that a book existed, I put it on the list.

And then I read a lot of like boring academic books.

So like if a book is mentioned in the footnotes and the book gets added to the list.

And you know, and periodically I'd go back and I'd look and I'd be like,

oh, this book's only 99 cents.

And that's kind of how my decision making goes.

If I really want to book a make up to 20 bucks, but I'd rather get like the 99 cent one.

But I've scaled that back considerably because at first I read everything.

And then I quickly realized that that's too much.

It's just too much.

And so like anything like New York gone deleted off the list.

I don't care about New York anymore.

So it's pretty much like Chicago and Milwaukee, but there isn't any Milwaukee.

So, you know, and basically isn't it too.

I think we've discussed this previously that like a lot of the mafia stuff.

I mean, you have to be picky on what you actually read about.

Sure.

The mafia because most of a lot of mafia books published are just the same crap regurgitated.

It is.

It absolutely is.

Yeah.

And there you have to be kind of picky on what is actually practically usable or in what's just telling you the same story.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

I know like last year a new John Gotti book came out.

And and John Gotti is like the biggest mob guy basically since Al Capone.

I mean, so there's been book after book written about him.

I didn't read the newest book because I don't read the New York books anymore.

But based on my understanding, I mean, there's nothing new in it.

It's just like there's, when you're the 20th book,

not anything of the story anymore.

So yeah, I cut out the New York stuff completely because it's so rarely ties in to anything that I do.

So it's just not beneficial.

Like Chicago, there's a significant overlap.

So I still read Chicago stuff.

But but like my real focus now is just Wisconsin history because I find Wisconsin history even not crime.

Just in general tends to pay off more for the research than other mob stuff.

Just just putting it in a context, you know.

Yeah.

So well, I think that was a good book find.

And I think the the writer of study question probably is getting much more of an answer than they would have ever expected to get.

Yeah.

From sending that question in.

Yeah.

So that's summary there.

That was the first 150 pages.

And so next time would be the second 150 pages.

Which hopefully Gavin will have read by then.

Well, yeah, I will.

I will.

And then we'll hear the hear her head to Milwaukee.

Yeah.

And I can tell you just from just from like flipping through.

There's I mean, she ends up in Milwaukee.

She opens a tavern in Milwaukee, but she's also in Appleton for a while.

So we get an apple to an animal walkie piece in the second half.

Cool.

All right.

We'll stay tuned for that.

We'll wrap this one up unless you've got anything else for this thing you want to add in.

No, not really.

Just, you know, stay tuned for the second half of the book.

I think it's going to be good.

And maybe if I do any fact checking, I'll give an update on that in the second half as

well.

And maybe Gavin will let me use that because I kind of would be interested to read it.

Maybe.

So I have to give it a try first.

Okay.

But all right.

It's a pretty good page turn, honestly.

Like it's well written.

Yeah.

It's actually pretty good.

All right.

Well, as always, thank you all for your continued support of our podcast.

And stay tuned for a new regular Milwaukee Mafia episode next week.

And we'll be back with the Patreon in two weeks.

Thanks again, everybody for tuning in.

Thank you.

Thanks for tuning in to the Milwaukee Mafia podcast.

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