Democrats Work to Protect Their Chances in the Midterms

0:00As President Trump continues implementing his ambitious agenda, follow along with the MSNow newsletter, Project 47. You'll get weekly updates and straight to your inbox with expert analysis on the administration's latest actions and how they're affecting the American people. The American people are basically telling the President that they are not okay with any of this. Sign up for the Project 47 newsletter at ms.nowslashproject47. Good morning. It is Sunday, April the 5th. We begin with breaking news this morning. US officials say that American military forces have rescued the missing crew member of an American fighter jet that was shot down over Iran on Friday and all personnel involved in the rescue have returned safely. We got him. President Trump announced in a lengthy post on truth social stating that the airman was now safe and sound adding that the mission involved, quote, dozens of aircraft.

1:01And while the officer and air force colonel had sustained injuries, he quote, will be just fine. End quote. This news caps a tense 24 hours. The other crew member, a pilot, was quickly found and recovered alive after the jet went down. It was an F-15E jet. It went down early Friday. The operation was very high risk that Washington Post reports that a USC 130 aircraft and rescue helicopters had to fly low and slow over Iran's mountainous terrain to locate the missing airman. Two of the rescue helicopters reportedly took ground fire from Iranian forces during the rescue mission. According to the New York Times, the missing airman had been hiding behind enemy lines armed with little more than a pistol for defense. And after rejecting from the F-15E, he hid in a mountain crevice, adding that the airman, quote, evaded Iranian forces for more than 24 hours at one point, hiking up a 7,000-foot ridge line. A senior military official told the Times. US attack aircraft dropped bombs and open fire on Iranian conboys to keep them away from the area where the airman was hiding.

2:06Meanwhile, Iranian military officials have warned the quote, gates of hell will open for the US and Israel if strikes on Iranian infrastructure continue. Now in response, Donald Trump has threatened to unleash, quote, all hell if Tehran does not make a deal to reopen the Strait of Hormuz by Monday. That was an unusual social media post, even by Trump standards, but he outdid himself this morning and on this holy weekend, I'm sorry to have to use profanity on this show. But this is what your 47th president of the United States just posted, quote, Tuesday will be power plant day and bridge day all wrapped up in one in Iran. There will be nothing like it. Open the fucking Strait, you crazy bastards, or you'll be living in hell. Just watch. Praise be to Allah. End quote. That's what the president of the United States has just posted. Joining us now from Dubai is MS now contributor in Zaman Rashid. Inzaman, this was quite a situation. You and I were just talking about it yesterday morning, the idea that there is in theory and alive American military person behind enemy lines.

3:14And this person has been rescued now. Yeah, I think not only America, the American people and the family of this serviceman, but also the Gulf States and the wider region will be breathing a huge sigh of relief today, Ali, now that this US Air Force military pilot and this weapons. Essentially that the weapons organizer of this aircraft has been rescued and has been evacuated from Iranian territory, a huge sigh of relief because as you mentioned there. If he was captured by Iran inside Iranian territory, it would have been a worst case scenario for this conflict because Iran would have essentially used him as some sort of leverage for negotiations. The propaganda would have been incredible. It would have been immense if they did that, but thankfully they haven't. And as a result, this serviceman is now back to some sort of safety.

4:17But it has been a very tense 48 hours. This operation was incredibly high risk. It meant that as you mentioned some of the aircraft had to fly low to this very mountainous terrain inside Iran. There was clear fighting on the ground as well as a result. But look, the Iranians have come out today and refuted some of the reporting that's ongoing suggesting that it was the US that had to bomb some of its own, some of its own aircraft, including as well as the C 130 jets and also two black Hawks. Iran have come out and said that the IRGC are saying that two American C 130 transport aircrafts and two black Hawks helicopters were shot down by their military and then they released some images and these are unverified images as of yet. So showing a crash sites around 28 miles south of the Iranian city of Isfahan and the images actually show components from at least one large propeller driven plane and helicopter.

5:25Again, no confirmation as to whether this has been as a result of Iranian fire on these jets and helicopters that have downed them during this operation, which took place over the last 48 hours. Iran have also come out and said this is from the representative of the Iranian Supreme Leader and said that the US president sought to restore America's lost prestige after the destruction of his fighter jet. But in doing so, he has also lost several aircraft helicopters and forces. I think what's really clear and what has been over the last 14 hours ever since this F-15 was shot down by Iran on Friday, is that Iran does have military capabilities, Ali, despite whatever the president and his team have said they've shown their force by taking down a number of planes by targeting helicopters as well. And that will be a real concern for not just America, Israel, but also the Gulf states where I am Ali.

6:25Right, because there has been unequivocal statements by the American military and the President and the Secretary of Defense that Iran does not have these capabilities. They may not have many of them, but they've got some of them as we've obviously seen in the last 48 hours. There's a lot of confusion and a lot of misinformation flying around in Zimamsa. We really rely on you and your colleagues where you're excellent reporting. The MS now contributor in Zimams Rashid for us in Dubai will continue to stay on this story. I want to head back to Washington. If you've started to notice some scrambling at the White House, let's say an executive order aimed at limiting mail-in voting or a primetime address to the nation from the Oval Office or a number of reports from inside the administration that they're racking their brains to end the war in Iran or a couple of cabinet firings. And maybe it could be because every day is another step closer to the midterms. The midterm elections, which we talk about in fairly general terms, are a specific date. They're on November the 3rd, 212 days away. And Donald Trump's approval rating dipped to 35% in a new CNN poll. That's as low as it's ever been in that poll.

7:28And generally speaking, it's about as low as it gets for Donald Trump because he has a built-in base of about a third of the country that will simply not see him through a critical lens regardless of what he does. Which means mathematically fully 64% of Americans disapprove of Trump. In a Quinnipiac poll released last week, 51% of registered voters said they would want to see Democrats take control of the House in November. That's an 11-point lead over Republicans. Donald Trump's political instincts are to address his plummeting popularity by trying to discredit the elections by sowing doubts about the integrity of the election. Why not? Almost worked for him in the past. So this Tuesday, this past Tuesday, he signed an executive order seeking to limit mail-in voting. It directed the Homeland Security Department to create an approved list of absentee voters and forbade states from sending mail-in ballots to any voter who's not on this pre-approved list. So in essence, it would provide the federal government the way of preventing eligible voters from accessing absentee ballots.

8:3123 Democratic-run states have already sued the government over the executive order. And as things stands, Democrats have momentum heading into November, but again, it's 212 days away. And in the next few weeks, however, Democrats have got some opportunities to capitalize on the momentum that is theirs at the moment. This Tuesday, for instance, a Democrat has a chance. I want to be really clear about this. It's a small chance to flip a Republican-held seat again. Since Donald Trump's election in November 2024, take a look at this picture. This is interesting. Democrats have flipped 30 seats that were previously held by Republicans, including in New Jersey and Virginia's legislative elections, which were in November, and in other state-level special elections across the country. These are state legislature-level elections. In that same period, Republicans have not flipped a single Democratic-held seat. Now, the one I was telling you about on Tuesday, some context here. This is Georgia's 14th congressional district.

9:32It was represented until January by Marjorie Taylor Greene, and there is a runoff election for the remainder of Marjorie Taylor Greene's term, the runoff elections on Tuesday. There was an election a few weeks ago, but in some of these southern states for various reasons, racism being among them, you have to get 50% in order to win, and nobody got 50%. However, there's a long shot chance here for the Democrat Sean Harris. He's a retired Brigadier general who challenged Greene and lost in 2024. His opponent is a guy named Clay Fuller, also a military veteran, and endorsed by President Trump. They rallied together, Trump and Fuller, in February. But Harris has the cash advantage. He's running a strong ground game, and last month's primary gave him encouraging signs. He was, and I will say this, he was expected to be, because it was a big primary, he was the top vote-getter of the night, with several Republicans splitting the rest of the vote amongst themselves. But the way it goes in some of these southern states is all those other people who didn't win. Their voters will probably all get together, and that'll be the result.

10:34But it was a mixed party primary, with the top voter vote-getters advancing to the runoff. The top two vote-getters, as you can see, were Fuller and the Democrat. While Trump endorsed the Republican candidate, Marjorie Taylor Greene, who is still relatively popular in her home district, has not endorsed anyone in this race. Turn out in the first few days of early voting was hitting a steady pace. We'll be monitoring their race very closely on Tuesday. Again, I remind you, this one is a long shot. But, but, and I got Michael Schruel looking at me here. He's looking at me like, don't say it. Democrats have won a few long shots recently. They've actually won races that they were not expected to win. So the fact that we're even here discussing this is interesting. I also want to talk about another story. There's early voting open in Virginia, not for a primary, but for a referendum, which was triggered by Donald Trump, but may in fact benefit Democrats. On April 21st, voters will decide whether Virginia engages in mid-decade redistricting, which would likely net the Democrats four seats in the U.S. Congress this November.

11:39Virginia Democrats created the new map as a countermeasure to Trump's push last summer for Republican states to redraw their maps to help the party maintain its narrow majority, very narrow majority, in the U.S. House. Currently, six Democrats and five Republicans represent Virginia in the U.S. House of Representatives. Under the proposed new boundaries based on how the states voted in the 2025 governor election, last November, the split could be 10 Democrats to one Republican. If Virginia voters approved that referendum, Democrats could gain four seats in the U.S. House. New congressional district maps passed in California and Utah also favor Democrats while redistricting in Texas, Missouri, North Carolina, and Ohio has favored Republicans. Taken together, all of these actions would essentially even out. Now, a new poll is a bit of a warning to Virginia Democrats, however, 52% of likely voters said they would vote to redistrict 47% say they are against the referendum.

12:42And that is within the margin of error of 3.4%. Okay, so we got a lot of things to discuss here. Joining me now, as I said, is Michael Schurer is going to be a side-eye. He's a longtime political journalist and old friend, and Jeff Shapiro is a scholar at the University of Virginia Center for Politics and an analyst for RadioIQ, Virginia's public radio outlet. He's covered Virginia government and elections in that state for like as long as Virginia has been a state. Okay, 40 years. It's been doing it for a long time. Nice to see you both. Thank you for being with us. Let me get this out of the way, because Michael Schurer has talked to him. Mike, I get it. I get it. This Georgia 14, this is a very Republican place. In fact, two elections ago, there wasn't even a Democratic candidate. Then this is the guy who ran against Margie Taylor Greene. He improved on his performance by very little in this last election. He was the top vote-getter, but that's just because of the way it was. It was a circus there, right? Well, I mean, they had over a dozen Republican candidates, a few Democrats. He was clearly the guy. He also had the name recognition in that district from having, but he also lost by a ton.

13:44It's the trumpiest district in Georgia, right? So Donald Trump in 2024 won it by 38% so they call it a Trump plus 38. The odds are completely stacked against the Republican. The Democratic spoke to it at the DNC in Washington this week when I knew that I was going to be doing this. He said to me, Democrats are not looking to Sean Harris necessarily to be the next representative. There's a basis of realism that you shared. But Wednesday morning could tell a lot to Democrats about the behavior of Republicans here around the war, right? Which is, you know, they're having the America first dialogue in the 14th district saying a lot of Republicans saying that this war is not America first. This is terrible for America. And there are two military veterans. And he had two military veterans. But once an Air Force clayful, there's an Air Force veteran. As you said, a brigadier general for over 40 years in the Army. This is a military, but it's also a really agricultural district. It's Northwest Georgia, a bus 10 a city.

14:44And the Democrats also a farmer. And the Democrat is also a farmer. So it's more interesting than not. This is not one of those some progressive is running against a Republican and a Republican. No question. As Jack Tramon said, it doesn't matter until it matters. And it could matter on Wednesday. If you see that Republicans are not rallying in unity around him. More himself has said that he, you know, he, I'm sorry, Harris himself has said that he will need 20% of Republicans to vote for him and independence. That's a long. It's a difficult climb. Jeff, let's talk about Virginia. First of all, I sort of get it. Because a lot of people don't want to go out actively and encourage what they think of as a broken system, right? Meddling in redistricting. But the only reason this referendum is happening is because Donald Trump got involved in meddling in the system. What do you make of these numbers that show that it's kind of an even split between Virginians who want to redistrict and Virginians who don't?

15:45The polling clearly shows this has been consistent on this issue that the folks who oppose this gerrymander and Eldbridge Gary would be pleased with what Democrats are proposing in Virginia. They've got passion going for them, though they continue to trail in these, these matchups. The most powerful argument that the Democrats have going for them. And by the way, there are Democrats who are not cool on this idea at all. But nonetheless, it's hostility continuing pronounced full-boil hostility in Virginia for Donald Trump that's propelling this. He's been on a ballot three times as a Republican presidential nominee three times rejected. And the enmity that it's accumulated in Virginia, and I think Mr. Sherman have some feel for this as a UVA alum, that it is hastened continuing Republican, excuse me, continuing Democratic gains in Virginia in the out years.

16:49I appreciate, this is how you know, Jeff Shapiro knows a lot, he called it Gary Mandarin because Eldbridge Gary is actually that's his name. I don't know when Gary became Jerry, but it's Gary Mandarin. It's UVA, that's what it is. Okay, so let's talk about this because on one hand, I've talked about all this momentum starting with the No Kings rallies and then the November elections and the special elections and then the new No Kings rally. This is problematic because this is a big state important matter. Democrats are not as energized by this as they have been by other topics for some reason. Well, it mirrors a little bit of what the early conversation was in California around Prop 50 when Newsom changed the district in California, went to the people with it. Which is a very similar concept, which is exactly a similar concept. Indiana for the Republicans refused to do it. Now what's Trump doing? He's primarying all the legislators that voted against it were Republicans in Indiana, so there's a bit of vindictiveness that we've seen all across the way.

17:53However, what makes this different, and I'm glad you framed it the way you did with talking about the No Kings rallies, talking about pushing back, Democrats have been criticized nationally by their own party, for not pushing back hard enough, right? So when you do it, it has a cumulative effect is what many sort of rank and file Democrats say we need to fight harder. So you're going to lose some of these fights. I don't think they're going to lose in Virginia from what I can tell it is within the margin of error. There were Democrats in California that were opposed to Prop 50. There are Democrats in Virginia who were opposed to this. But the whole notion that Democrats are fighting back, that's what Democrats on a grassroots level want to see their party do, which it hasn't done very often, and now at least they're doing it. So if there's some cold feet about it, that's natural, but at least they're following through with those what Democrats. I'm going to ask you both to hang around for a second. I'm going to take a quick break. We'll continue the conversation with Jeff Shapiro and Michael Short right after this. You're watching Vellci. Home to the Rachel Maddo Show. Morning Joe, the briefing with Jen Saki and more voices you know and trust. MS now is your source for news, opinion and the world. Learn more at MS.Now.

19:05I'm back with Michael Short and Jeff Shapiro. Jeff, I want to continue this conversation about what's different in Virginia about their redistricting vote than happened in California where it sort of got post-political in California, right? It was about the fact that Donald Trump's doing crazy stuff and so Californians have an opportunity on behalf of the country to fight back and do something that perhaps they wouldn't naturally do in terms of redistricting. Maybe felt a little bit dirty to some people, but needed to be done because of the fight. Why is this manifesting a little bit differently in Virginia? A hyperpartisan political cartography has been a problem in Virginia for about 30 years. This is voting rights states are there always racial considerations, but as the legislature flipped Republicans used many of the same tricks that the Democrats had been using and this just became more granular, more surgical, more finely tuned voters had their fill of this.

20:11Since barely six years ago revised the state's constitution to remove the legislature's redistricting power and turn it over to a bipartisan commission. It did locked in its first go around the Supreme Court of Virginia prepared districts that generally largely reflected the close division in this state. Democrats want to upend this supposedly in the interest of countering Trump's heavy handedness, but there are lots of technical complications here. For example, Virginians are voting in a referendum in the middle of April. This is new, this is different when the middle of by the way 45 days early voting. Republicans have been in out of court trying to delay this if not stop it altogether. The Supreme Court of Virginia green lighted the referendum but made clear in its order that it will decide the merits of this issue after the referendum.

21:24So it's entirely true back the result on April 21st as I'm standing in front of that board telling all our viewers about it may not be the result. You could be before that big board and the numbers could be encouraging for those who support this, but then when the matter is before the court on the merits, the big news conceivably possibly I'm trying to use the conditional verb dance here could be that this is illegal and unconstitutional. So this is a rich process and procedure oriented story, but one in which these little twists and turns can have a very significant impact. Okay, so putting the technical part of this side which will be very important as Jeff has pointed out could be decisive. That said, the results will matter psychologically to people. Of course they will and I think there's a lot of psychology here, you know, with all the Jeff said, the other fact is the California reacted immediately after Trump did it in Texas.

22:28So there was more energy behind saying if they're going to do this, we're going to do it. Now there's been a little more of a lag in time in Virginia, which I think has made it a little more analytical and a little more difficult for Virginia Democrats to go about it. They also had a Republican governor for a while and then Spamberger came in. So there has there's there's sort of a change of power that gave momentum to this thing. But yeah, I think when you look at this and you see what Democrats are doing there and you look at these results, the California results were challenged in the courts. There was no merit to it. These will be challenged, you won't know, but Democrats will at least have the feeling that they've convinced Virginia voters that this is the way to go and this is the way to respond to the rule breaking that's happening on the other side. Jeff, let me ask you something because there's been a lot of criticism about how Abigail Spanberger was the new kind of Democrat that's going to win in this country, fairly moderate. I think this is all kind of nonsense because people who don't like Trump want people who are going to fight. This move is this associated in Virginia with being some sort of a far left radical move or not?

23:34The complication for Abigail Spanberger is that she comports herself as a center left can do solutions oriented Democrat. I mean, I think her instincts are largely as a social liberal, but elections statewide elections are consistently decided in the middle in Virginia. Spanberger appreciates that in her record as a congressional candidate and as a statewide candidate affirm that there's another rub here, and that is the garamander in its various forms over the arc of her career really shaped her career when she ran for the first time in 2018 in a district, the boundaries of which had been contested. She had to be very mindful of the rural outlying areas of that district. It was anchored in a blue suburb, but nonetheless, she needed to kind of demonstrate to red voters that she'd walk the walk and talk the talk.

24:44Then the district was reoriented from the Richmond suburbs to the northern Virginia suburbs and she had to do it all over again with an entirely fresh audience. So she's always been sort of lukewarm on all of this and having supported enthusiastically the move to this bipartisan redistricting commission. That said she knows that she has to make and keep friends in the Democratic control legislature. So she's endorsed this. She's cut a television spot and she's even voted early and made a point of encouraging Virginians to do the same. You guys are super smart. I'm enjoying this conversation. I think Michael, you and I should sign on to Jeff's move to rename it or return the name to Gary Mandering. Yeah. That's what it is. Guys, thanks very much to both of you. Michael Shores, a long time political journalist Jeff Shapiro is a scholar at the University of Virginia Center for politics and has been covering Virginia politics for a long time.

25:52Of course, we will be covering Virginia politics very closely for the next few weeks. All right. Yesterday we did a segment on mail-in voting and on a map that I showed you that colors were accidentally mixed up and a few of you pointed out to me. So I want to show you the correct map now and the information showing mail-in voting laws across the country. I apologize that we got that wrong. Today, eight states plus the District of Columbia allow for what's known as universal mail-in voting. Those of the states colored in green. In these states, all registered voters automatically receive an official ballot and the mail no questions asked. In the blue states, there are 28 of them. Nothing to do with Democratic. There are just 28 blue colored states. Voters can request an absentee ballot without having to provide an excuse. In the remaining 14 states that are all in yellow, voters do need to provide an excuse in order to get a mail-in ballot. To those of you who pointed out the inconsistencies in the map, this is now the correct map. All right. Coming up. Last year, the Trump administration set states on a wild goose chase to find undocumented immigrants who were enrolled in Medicaid.

26:57A new report uncovered little evidence of a widespread problem. Listen to your favorite MS now shows any time as a podcast. Enjoy new episodes of Morning Joe, Deadline White House and The Rachel Maddo Show. Every small, deep, democratic muscle that we have is flexing. Plus the last word with Laurence O'Donnell, the beat with Ari Melper, The Weeknight, and more on the go wherever you get your podcasts. For ad-free listening to all of your favorite shows, subscribe to MS now Premium on Apple Podcasts. Last October, Mehmet Oz, the TV doctor, turned administrator of the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services, posted on social media that more than $1 billion of federal taxpayer dollars were being spent on funding Medicaid for illegal immigrants in five states in Washington, D.C.

28:06The Trump administration then ordered state officials to investigate long lists of Medicaid and Rolees to determine if they were undocumented and therefore ineligible for Medicaid. Medicaid, as you know, covers health costs for people with low incomes and people with disabilities. Those without legal status in this country are not eligible for Medicaid, full stop. The federal government sent states the names of hundreds of thousands of Medicaid and Rolees and ordered the states to determine whether they were ineligible based on their immigration status. It was a large undertaking. These were not short lists. We're talking of thousands and sometimes tens of thousands of names. A spokesperson for the Center for Medicare and Medicaid Services said that the verification checks were necessary for, quote, certain and Rolees whose status could not be confirmed through federal data sources. Which is sort of fascinating to me given that Elon Musk and his doge people were all over federal data. I assume the feds know everything they need to know about us, but apparently not. The health news website KFF recently reviewed the findings from five states and seems like the government is on a wild goose chase.

29:11As of March, both Pennsylvania and Colorado have checked the eligibility of a combined total of 79,000 Medicaid and Rolees. Of the 79,000 Medicaid and Rolees, officials determined that the number of people illegally benefiting from Medicaid was zero. The findings from the other states don't provide much evidence and undocumented immigrants are committing large scale fraud either of the 65,000 people that Ohio has checked so far. 260 people were deemed to be ineligible and kicked off of Medicaid in Texas. It was 77,000 out of 28,000 in Utah. It was 42 out of 8,000. To put this into perspective, 68 and a half million people were enrolled in Medicaid at the end of 2025 according to the latest government data from what KFF has found so far fewer than 400 people in five states have been deemed ineligible. The reviews are ongoing. The government is continuing to send states more names to verify, but the findings reviewed by KFF so far do not relieve, do not reveal an alarming theft of government services that the Trump administration has been quick to suggest.

30:20More on this, I'm joined by Phil Gallo with CBC, your correspondent for KFF Health News, which we love because you just, you don't bother. You guys just get into the detail, right? You're not driven by the politics of the whole thing. Phil, is this like the immigrant's undocumented people voting? Is this just another thing that the government is just trying to get people to think actually happens and should be a big concern of ours? Well, they've certainly drawn a lot of attention over the last year to the issue of our illegal immigrants benefiting from a government program. And they have made a lot of noise over it, made a lot of comments, and have had the states do a lot of work to double check and make sure that people who are on the program met all the rules. And they made a lot of announcements about this last summer, had a lot of states go check the information, and really we haven't heard much since. That's why we decided KFF Health News to go and check, and check in with states who are willing to share with us the information on your findings, and their findings were just what you said.

31:21They found sort of no evidence of any widespread problem, and very few people had to be terminated from the program. Do you have any, were you able to get any granularity into the 400 or so people that you were able to make determinations about? Is it, is it all very simple that they're undocumented people who somehow got enrolled in Medicaid or are there, are there differences amongst why there are people who were not eligible who were enrolled? The couple of states that shared with us the information said they largely had the information already on them. So there was a relatively simple as they already had the data. Ohio, for example, did have some people. They had to go and reach back out to people for more information to confirm they were on it, but that was only very few people. It's unclear why the government didn't have this information. There is a program that Medicaid for illegal immigrants, where Medicaid does pay hospitals in cases of emergency care, cases of people who come in pregnancy, where they do pay.

32:22And that's in just for emergency care. That's not full scope Medicaid, which for largely talking about here. So if you took advantage of that, if you're an undocumented American who takes advantage of emergency, get into a car crash or something or you have a heart attack and you go to emergency or you've got a pregnancy matter, that would not be breaking the law. That's correct. That's what the program is there for. The program is largely there for to help protect hospitals because they're mixture when people do come in in emergency. Hospitals are required to treat people regardless of status, regardless of insurance. That's the law. They must treat them. So that emergency program is largely there to help protect hospitals and make sure that they can get some funding in those cases for people who, people who would otherwise qualify for Medicaid, if not for their legal status. But so no, that's not taking advantage. But to be sure, that's not full Medicaid coverage. That's not coverage that people can take and use to go to the doctor, use to go and get dental care just for emergencies.

33:26Yeah. And so, and by the way, these are statistically almost irrelevant numbers. And number two, this is stuff paid for by the States, not the federal government anyway. Phil, thank you. There's a lot of stuff in here. And I hope people read it. Phil Gallowitz is a senior correspondent at KFF Health News. All right, coming up. We know by now the military consequences of this war with Iran, but our reputation as a soft power in the world is on the line too. My next guest said that America should be worried about the power of influence, not the influence of power. Around the world, the United States has plenty of concrete ways to exert its power. America is the world's largest economy. America possesses the world's most powerful military. America spends more on its military than the whole dozens of countries that come after it combine. But crucial to America's global influence is in fact its soft power, the cultural influence that America projects to the wider world. Richard Stangle was the Undersecretary of State for Public Diplomacy and Public Affairs under President Obama.

34:34It's a role that he says was essentially that of the soft power czar. Stangle writes America has quote the power of influence, not the influence of power. When people around the world love American pop stars or Hollywood movies, that too is spreading American soft power. But America's soft power can't hold up in a world when its hard power is being misused in such a major way as it is now. Stangle writes quote, I believe because Donald Trump and his war in Iran, American popularity will descend to Deppsy. It has not seen this century. I'm afraid there's no soft power action, no movie, no song, no video game that can make up for an errant Tomahawk missile that kills dozens of children at a girl's school. Stangle concludes that the Iran war may have permanently changed the image of the US on the global stage, undoing decades of diplomatic efforts. So in so many regions of the world, this war is seen as the equivalent of Vladimir Putin's invasion of Ukraine. The decades we've spent trying to ethically distance ourselves from Putin are now over end quote.

35:37Stangle joins me now is the former Undersecretary of State for Public Diplomacy and Public Affairs under President Obama. He's now an MS now political analyst. Rick, great to see you. Thank you for talking to us. I guess my question to you is why in your opinion is at this moment because we saw the destruction of USAID last year which was really a soft power thing because there were people all over Asia and Africa seeing their medication or their food coming from the United States. You see the Iran war is a bit of a tipping point. Yes, Ali. I mean, anti-Americanism has been around for a long time. There was the trope of the ugly American in the 50s and 60s. But this kind of seesaw of presidential politics befuddles a lot of people around the world. And in some ways this actually goes back to Joe Biden. When Joe Biden beat Donald Trump, he said America was back. But our allies around the world said, well, back for how long exactly. They were looking at this idea that maybe our country had turned more rightward, had kind of renounced those values of American soft power.

36:45I would say in addition to what you were talking about American culture, music, movies, part of the power our soft power is those American ideas, freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom of assembly. That was what the America became a beacon for the world and know we were never quite the shining city on a hill that Ronald Reagan called us. But for a lot of people, we were a beacon of those things. And when I was in the state department and people like me, we did go around the world saying, look, you have to have three elections. You have to have free speech. You have to have more transparency. I think those days are gone. So it's tricky because this particular war, depending on whose side of the argument you listen to, the Iranians say that they were moving toward a diplomatic solution. And people like you who have worked in diplomacy have said that the war must never start before you're exhausted on the diplomatic side because in war people actually die and things get done. But the danger here with Iran is Iran had a deal with the United States that Donald Trump pulled out of.

37:50Then Iran negotiated two times with the United States and in both instances that resulted in Iran getting bombed. So what's the incentive for Iran or frankly for anyone else to make any deals with America at this point? Well, that's the thing. And that's also what undermines our soft power, lack of consistency. You have, you know, a new guy who comes in and says everything that the old guy did is the worst thing in history. And then that repeats it over and over. I think, you know, having some kind of intellectual and moral consistency of our policy is important. And then I would argue, I mean diplomacy is almost always better than missiles. You know, Winston Churchill said, you know, jaw, jaw is better than war war. And the Iran deal that we had kept them in a box. I mean, remember who also was part of that Iran deal? It wasn't just the United States and France and England. It was Russia, you know, Iran's patron. I think tearing up that agreement was the reason we're here today.

38:50And a US war of aggression, a US war of choice may be the single most damaging thing to American favorability and American popularity that it's possible to do. You say something that has really important historical context in your article in which you read, you conclude, what Trump is doing to America is a deliberate slow motion version of how Great Britain, one of the world's greatest powers in the 20th century, became little England after the Second World War. Within 15 years, an imperial hegemon became a medium sized, more inward focused European country concerned more with domestic economic recovery than foreign influence. It's a, it's a, it's a single paragraph, but it's, it's the history of the modern world, right? England was the most powerful country in on earth. The sun rise and set on the British Empire. This can happen. And I think a lot of Americans think that can't happen. Yes. Great Britain was the imperial hegemon, the greatest imperial power in history, that tiny little island.

39:52And part of the reason they were a power is that they engaged with the world. Look, imperialism did many, many, many terrible things. And I'm not saying we should become an imperial power. But what the model is is when you disengage from the world, which America first basically says we should do, that undermines your power. Our power comes from our engagement with the world with globalization, with the fact that, that a big economic power like America can be generous to other countries that we shouldn't be withdrawing our foreign aid. Foreign aid is a incredibly powerful tool of soft power. And we have unilaterally committed suicide when it comes to foreign aid. Rick, always good to talk to you. Thank you for the article. It's really important. Richard Stangles, the former Undersecretary of State for Public Diplomacy and Public Affairs, and an MS now political analyst. We'll be right back. Donald Trump's been justifying the brutal ice arrests that we've been witnessing by claiming that they are resting the worst of the worst, criminals, fraudsters.

40:57And in Trump's own words, the bad ombrace. Well, it turns out that the majority of those people arrested this year have had no criminal record whatsoever. Many of the people that Trump has dulled out pardons to, however, are on their own little crimes free. Plus, President Trump has his eye on Cuba, and with Venezuela out of the way, the U.S. is itching to make a move on this country in crisis. I'll tell you why this is significant and how a blockade by the United States has made life very difficult for Cubans. Also, how the case against birthright citizenship is setting us way back, back to a time before the 14th Amendment, which declared that everyone born on this soil is a citizen. Another hour, another another hour of bell she begins after the break. Listen to your favorite MS now shows any time as a podcast. Enjoy new episodes of Morning Joe, Deadline White House and The Rachel Maddo Show. Every small, de-democratic muscle that we have is flexing. Plus the last word with Laurence O'Donnell, the beat with Ari Melper, The Weeknight, and more, on the go, wherever you get your podcasts.

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