Debate, Should floor crossing be allowed?

0:00When you cast a ballot, which takes priority in your decision, the party or the individual candidate? It's a question that many voters are reflecting on as of late, especially today. As a fourth MP has crossed the parliamentary floor to the Liberals, the fourth since November. That's three conservatives, including Edmonton's Matt Jenneru and today the NDP MP for Nunavut. Floor crossings are not new in Canada's parliamentary system. We've seen hundreds of them at the federal and provincial level. Ever since Stuart Campbell jumped ship from the anti-confederate party to the Liberal Conservative party in 1868, that was a thing. Wow, but seeing them this frequently and with so much at stake, the potential for a majority government. Well, that's got people questioning if something should be done about the practice. I want to bring in a couple of voices on this to get their takes on if this is all on the up and up, or if this is perhaps a little something sneaky happening with Mark Kerney in company.

1:02Joining us right now, the former Conservative MP for Battle, River Crowfoot, currently at upstream strategies, Damien Kirk, and former Liberal Federal candidate for Calgary Centre and over at the North Star Public Affairs, Sabrina Grover. Good afternoon to you both and thanks for taking on the debate today with us. Thanks for having us. It's good to be here. Yeah, I'll start with you, Damien, because I know you tweeted about this today on the old X machine. And one of the lines that used in there was you talked about the Floor Crossing as another symptom of a democratic decline in Canada, referencing, of course, the Floor Crossing today. Now the Floor Crossing themselves, as we know, it's nothing new. So why do you think what we're seeing lately is so much different than maybe what's happened in the past? Thanks, Courtney, and it's good to be with you. Look, over the course of this, close to six years, I spent in Parliament, I saw how the governing Liberals wanted more of an audience than an opposition for the three terms where I was elected in a general election.

2:03Canadians sent minority Liberal governments to Ottawa. Now I may not have liked the choice of Prime Minister, but Canadians made a choice. What we're seeing is that choice being stolen away from Canadians, not just those who voted conservative, but Canadians from coast to coast who cast a ballot made a decision. And to see it go from it being a minority to a majority and the consequences of that in the House, confidence, but also in committees is really stark. And you think something that has a lot of people questioning the idea of democracy in our country? Well, Sabrina, I mean, as I mentioned off the top, I think it would be fair to say, to categorize that most Canadians aren't likely to vote for the party over the candidate. And to Damien's point, and a lot of folks from the conservative side of the aisle, they're saying this is a violation of voters' trust. Do you think that's a fair assessment? I mean, you know, I come from the perspective that I think that the member of parliament or the personal elected best understands their community and understands what people are looking for well beyond an election.

3:06I think an election is an inflection point. It is a singular point in time. But we also have to look at how, you know, emotions, ideas, feelings, and polling changes. And I think right now you're seeing that a number of Canadians are behind Mark Carney. And I think that's why you're seeing, you know, in particular, this swell of floor crossing for this MP for Loriildo. I think, you know, she won by about 40 votes in the 2025 election. But I think what's more important is the advocacy that she's done in her community around things like housing, you know, things like mining and now coming up the defense piece that's critically going to affect Northern Canada. And seeing that she's got a better voice to advocate for her constituents as she mentions on the governing side of the House. You know, I come from Alberta where, as David does as well, where I think we could all remember the historic 2015 floor crossing, where 10 wild rose went over to the government side didn't, didn't necessarily work out.

4:10But it's not something that Mark Carney's invented or he's doing it for the first time. This has been part of Canada's parliamentary democracy for quite some time. Yeah, well, and to that point, Damian, right? I mean, obviously, federal conservatives have welcomed floor crosses in the past. We've heard about the 2015 situation. What do you make of the claim that it's a double standard that this was such a big deal that, you know, Stephen Harper had the reins at the federal level that maybe he should have instituted something? So look, I think if Mark Carney was to make a very open and clear commitment that he would not change the makeup of committees, for example, that would allow the opposition to continue to have the number that was sent outside the confidence of the House, which I think is a fair debate to have but for committees to be able to make that commitment, I think, would be a good phase gesture that this isn't simply about maintaining and stealing power when it comes to the history of floor crossing. I think that in most cases, and well, in all cases, Canadians have the chance to choose at the next election,

5:14whether or not they agree with that, but when it comes down to the power dynamic that exists now, I think we're seeing a Prime Minister that doesn't want an opposition to be effective, a growth in the power of the executive branch of our government, taking power away from the parliamentary branch, I think is what speaks to that larger democratic decline. Well, what do you make of that, Sabrina? And I guess actually, one thing I want to hone in too right here is that there's a lot of talk about backroom deals and that these candidates are being promised a little something to jump ship. And I know you talked about obviously the NDP MP, perhaps aligning a little bit better with the Liberals than the NDP in terms of Northern Affairs, but it's hard to believe that four candidates would jump ship in such a short period of time unless there was some sweetener. No? I mean, I haven't seen any sweetener so far, so unless you know something that I don't, I think that they've been pretty transparent and pretty public with why they've crossed over and what they've received out of that, I don't think anyone's gotten anything that we wouldn't have known about publicly. And I think that it really accounts again for their feeling about how they're going to represent their constituents.

6:19And I trust MPs to make the best decisions for their constituents, just as I think we would trust any MP to do that. So, you know, again, I think to Damien's point, I'm not sure that this is some sort of large ploy by Mark Carney. It just looks like this is, you know, I hate to say this, but unprecedented times we're facing a unity crisis across the country with talks of separation from Albert Uncle Beck. We're facing external threats, we're facing a geopolitical world that is nearing on, you know, a catastrophic war. I think MPs are making the choice that this is the best place for them to be to make change that they want to see in Canada. Yeah, I do misprecedented times. Those were the best. I want to get your takes in terms of the leaders, the two main leaders in this conversation on the opposite side. So I'll start with you, Damien. What we're seeing with respect to the floor crossings here. What does this say about Mark Carney from your perspective? Look, I think that to say that Mark Carney is cunning would be an understatement. He certainly has shown his chops for being a so-called political neophyte.

7:21He is certainly showing that he operates well in that world, but I'm not sure that he likes the democratic side of that conversation. You know, I said in the House of Commons, and I said it in my tweet this morning, Courtney, that, you know, I thought that it was decline we saw under Justin Trudeau. When he was Prime Minister, but I'm not sure that he wasn't listening a little bit too closely to his advisor during those those five or so years that I spent across the aisle for Mr. Trudeau. Because Mr. Carney certainly seems to be pretty good at playing politics when Canadians do need a unified national voice. But that includes an opposition and in the case of conservatives, the more than eight million Canadians that voted conservative in the last election. Let's make sure that those voices are not discounted when it comes to the national conversation and the policies that so many of those the conservatives have advocated for are all of a sudden forefront in that national conversation. All right, flip side to you, Sabrina. What does this floor crossing wave the say about Pierre Paulier?

8:22I mean, listen, I think, you know, Pierre had a resounding leadership result. Obviously in the in the high 80s, the highs that any conservative leader has seen. But I don't think that that leadership result writ large as translating into his caucus. There seems to be discontent in caucus. I think a lot of that stems from, you know, probably what people felt during the election process. With some of the senior leadership there. And I think that it's up to Pierre Paulier if we're talking about the conservatives to show that he's got a caucus worth staying in. And if he doesn't, then people are going to leave. And I think that that's a question that the conservatives have to reflect on. All right. Now, I want to get to, I guess, the big broader conversation about, you know, what should happen from here on in? Because Angus Reed just put out a new poll today. A couple of different numbers I want to throw on yet there, which is that talking about what should happen if a member of parliament decides to floor cross. It found that about one in four say that it's kosher. They are allowed to sit with ever whatever part of they want.

9:2340% came in and said that there should be a by election. 11% said they should sit as independence. And what's your take in terms of how we approach this going forward? I mean, this has been the way it's been on the books now since 1867. Do we leave the status quo or has the time come for us to maybe kind of revise the rules around these floor crossings? Because certainly, as I said, yeah, 41% of Canadians say that there should be a by election in these instances. So Damien, what's your take on that? Is that the solution to this democratic decline that you're talking about? I think that it takes MPs being being held responsible and in the case of crossing the floor. If you're not willing to go back to the voters, I certainly think that speaks to one's personal integrity. And I would ask all four of these floor crossers about whether or not they are truly standing up for what they, what their constituents are asking them to do and having had my name on the ballot and having had the opportunity to go to the polls for four times.

10:29That's something that weighs heavily on an individual. And certainly, I think that, you know, one isn't happy with the direction of a party as opposed to giving a mandate to a prime minister that was specifically not given to them by voters. There's nothing saying that they can't sit as independence. They can't make their opinions heard in other ways. And it's unfortunate that this, I think, further damages the trust the Canadians. At the time when we should be building trust in our institutions, it further damages the trust that Canadians need to have in them. Now, well, Sabrina, I want to throw this other number out there just before I get you to answer on this, right? Because to me, you know, it was the same thing back in 2018 when we saw a conservative gain from the Liberal Party. I thought it was a little bit of sour grapes, then maybe, you know, some people might say it's a little sour grapes now because you go back to 2018. And the Angus read poll found that 57% of conservatives supported the idea of floor crossing. That's now down to 14%. Conversely, Liberals in 2018 only 38% thought it was a good idea. So they were against it when it worked against them, and now it's 69%. So, I mean, what's your take in terms of, you know, how we move forward for this? Is it status quo and just accept that, you know, whoever's losing candidates, it's a little sour grapes or does something need to be done?

11:41I mean, I think that that's always going to be the case, right? I think you're always going to have folks who feel jaded or feel, you know, hard done by when this happens to the other side of the team. My opinion is, I think if we're talking about floor crossing as a democratic reform, then we have to think about that whole suite of democratic reforms. And, you know, I was a liberal when Justin Trudeau didn't ask those those democratic reforms that Canadian wanted Canadians wanted back in 2015. So I think if this is something that we care about, then similar to the ways that we've done cross party or nonpartisan kind of investigations into born interference, it should be a cross party parliamentary committee that talks about what are the democratic reforms that all parties can agree to that everyone wants to see implemented. Because if we're just going to hash this out in the media and overquibbling, it's just not going to work and it's not going to change anything. Well, though, I do appreciate you hashing this out in the media. It makes for great radio. Did Damien support that? You can always do it here. I, Damien Sabrina, I appreciate you coming on and walking through this with a couple of different perspectives on the story that I know a lot of Canadians are watching with great curiosity and that'll be interesting to see how this does all play out.

12:51Once we see the results of those appending by elections as well, appreciate your time today and let's do this again. Thanks very much for joining me. Thank you. Damien Kirick, former conservative MP of Battle River Crickford. So we're going to go and reform a liberal federal candidate for Calgary Center, weighing in on the fortunes of their federal counterparts and the floor crossings that we've seen number four in favor of the Liberals is the NDP MP for none of it, making her trek to the grits today.