Death By A Salt

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HudsonRidio.com. Your mom likes us.

I'm Linda Zimmerman. I'm Ryan Harrow. And this is murder in the Hudson Valley on HudsonRidio.com.

And welcome everyone to another I'm sure gripping episode. I'm taking that on faith because

this is Brian's turn to surprise me and take it away. Yeah you are getting ambushed this week.

I didn't even know about this case and it's pretty recent. And it's local. We're back in the Hudson

Valley this week and I just don't remember hearing anything about this one. So I think you're

going to be surprised and I was pretty angry myself. So I know I know you're going to get

torqued up about this. That's what I'm here for. That's right. All right, let's hop in.

So like I said, we're back in the Hudson Valley this week. And as a coincidence,

our story actually starts less than an hour away from my place in Alabama as well.

Total coincidence. Had no idea. Wow. Yeah. So we're talking about Lacey Spears

who was born and raised in Decatur, Alabama in the northern part of the state along the Tennessee

River. It's east of where we are. She's not far from she wasn't far from Huntsville.

Lacey loved kids. She worked as a babysitter. Then she worked at a daycare facility. She became

friends with some of the moms, offered to help out with their kids when they needed help.

But it got to the point where some of those friends got a little bit weirded out.

Lacey became overly attached to the point where she didn't always want to bring the kids back.

She always wanted to be around. She always wanted to have a kid with her.

Oh, boy.

One of the mothers she became friends with went to church with her own kid. And another

congregant said, oh, you've got Lacey's baby with you. And the mother went, excuse me.

So she was pretending it was her own child? I don't know if she was outwardly saying it or

just implying or not correcting people. But there were people that were under the impression that

they were her kids. All right. So these people caught on pretty quick. Red flag. Some,

some ain't quite right. Lacey, after what we're going to talk about, we do an interview with 48

hours on CBS. And she was quoted saying, I never said that I had more than one child.

Garnett, who will be talking about was my only child.

Now, we talked about people lying before. And we're going to go off on a little tangent.

Most of us are brought up. Lying is bad. Don't lie. Always tell the truth. And most people take

that into adulthood. But when they don't want to tell the truth, they tell the truth about something

else. So they're not quite lying. So she said, I never said that I had more than one child.

So she was carrying a child at a time. She was telling the truth. So when we're interviewing people,

we figure that they're telling the truth. We just have to figure out what are they telling the

truth about? Right. What are they hiding with that trick? Exactly. What are they not quite giving up?

So was she telling the truth? Sorta. She never said she had more than one child. But this child,

she was carrying a church, one hers. All right. When she was twiting, she had her son Garnett

with Chris Hill, who was a neighbor in the same apartment complex, who she dated for a bit.

Her son's full name, Garnett Paul Thompson Spears. He was born on December 3rd, 2008.

Lacey later said that Chris didn't want to be involved in Garnett's life. Apparently she told Chris

that he was not the father. But later on, a paternity test would prove that he was. Garnett had

a number of health problems for the first two months after he was born. He got ear infections,

which is just awful, but really not that uncommon. He wouldn't eat. And when he did,

he would throw it all back up. And he was losing weight, which is very serious for an infant.

It should be constantly gaining weight. So anytime you have an infant losing weight, that is a problem.

Garnett was diagnosed with failure to thrive with no apparent reason that he couldn't keep food

down. There was just nothing obvious that doctors could figure out. He wound up having stomach

surgery to try and curtail the vomiting. And then he was discharged home. Lacey said he still

wouldn't take a bottle. He wouldn't eat. And a week later, he was re-admitted with dehydration,

which is also very, very serious for infants. A minor amount of blood loss even for infants is

considered very serious. Back in my paramedic days, I'm sure it hasn't changed much, but it was very

focused on giving a lot of IV fluids, dehydration, and all that. That's how serious it could be.

That kind of dehydration of blood loss. Garnett was flown from Decatur General Hospital

to Birmingham Children's Hospital, where a blood test showed that his sodium level was super high,

166 milli-equivalents per liter. Normal is 135 to 145. Now, you're the former chemist. I still

don't understand what a milli-equivalent is. I read it, and I'm like, I don't know, something with

hydrogen and bonding, and I honestly don't remember at this point. Okay, I don't think anybody does.

It sounds made up. It's secret code for pharmacists. I get doctors. Yeah, but you know,

you see it, you know what the normal range is. Right, right. He was way above that.

So, doctors got his levels down, but they couldn't figure out how they got so high in the first place.

Something that just shouldn't happen. Garnett was, again, discharged home. Lacey would later

explain that she wanted to know what was wrong, so she kept bringing Garnett to different

doctors, saying she still couldn't get him to eat. All right, so when Garnett was nine months,

he then had a feeding tube inserted through the abdomen that went right into the stomach.

Wow. Often called a G2. Yep. And nutrients can then be administered either using a syringe to

push them in or with a hanging bag, like an IV bag. That's hung on a pole. They wound up moving

to Florida to live near Lacey's maternal grandmother Peggy. And Lacey, again, would babysit

clean houses. She was on public assistance for a little while there. But they would go back and

visit their friends in Alabama. And these friends in Alabama would say that they saw a happy

energetic two-year-old boy that was running around. He would eat pizza or what passes for pizza

in Alabama, which I can say first and what passes for pizza in most places outside of New York,

Detroit, and Chicago. Yeah. Yeah. We just came back from upstate in New York,

Western New York, and what passes for pizza there is something else to discuss. They all dip

in blue cheese up there just because it's nasty. Blue cheese? Oh, yeah. That's like the thing in

that Rochester buffalo area. Yeah. That's a whole, we should do a whole show on how criminal that is,

but that's right. Yeah. Then you'll be looking for the death penalty, won't you? I think people

will be coming after me. You know, it's a running joke how stuck up New Yorkers are about their

pizza. And there's a reason. That's right. Fantastic. Yeah. Yeah. It's very different the further

way you get. But I digress. Back to Garnett, you know, he would just be running around happy little

kid. Lacey's friends didn't think he was sick. He didn't look sick. He didn't act sick.

There was no reason to think he was sick. Lacey, however, said that Garnett would sometimes just

stop eating, complain that he felt sick. And she would use his G2 to administer supplemental nutrition.

Oh, wow. They still kept it in there. They still kept it in there. That's a lot of risk.

Oh, buckle up. Yeah, buckle up. So Lacey then said that as Garnett was approaching school age,

she wanted to take him to New York so he could get the best education possible. Okay.

From a friend, she had heard about a facility called the Fellowship or the Fellowship Community

in Chestnut Ridge, here in the Hudson Valley. Are you familiar with this? I've heard of them.

I had never heard of them before this, believe it or not. And it's not far from where we are.

Chestnut Ridge is a village in the town of Ramapo in Rockland County where we are.

The Fellowship Community is based on an 80 acre farm and it provides care to the elderly and

disabled and people who live there, participate in whatever activities they can up to their

ability, working outside, inside, all that kind of stuff. Employees live on campus with their

families. So Lacey thought it would be a great opportunity. She would have free housing. She

would have a job and Garnett could go to school there. There's a school I guess affiliated with

them or private school. And I guess he could go to. It was founded in 1966, like I said, it's still

there. I didn't even know about it until now. So silly me. And when she was applying for the job,

she made up a story about why she's single. She said that Garnett's father was named Blake.

He was a police officer who died in a car accident.

Okay, then. All right. So none of which was true. None of which was true. And it's the kind of

story that when you tell that people don't generally ask follow-up questions. It's a way to

shut down that conversation real fast and get a lot of sympathy. Keep that in mind as well as we

go along. Oh, I have a pretty clear picture of Lacey already. Oh, yes. Yeah. Well, leave a

couple of blank lines on your notepad there. Yeah. She was hired. She got the job. They moved

there in November of 2012. And Lacey said that she loved caring for the elderly residents while Garnett

had free run of the grounds. It was a safe area. There was always somebody watching him, the other

employees, the residents, all that. So she didn't have to worry about that. Everybody who knew Garnett

said he was a great kid, very outgoing, loved spending time with people, and that he was hungry all

the time. So when people left food out, he would help himself and had no problem eating nuts,

fruit, whatever anybody would leave out, he would help himself and he would happily eat it all up.

They thought Lacey was a good mom. And she talked about Garnett all the time, how proud she was

and all that kind of stuff. And they all seemed happy there. And now's a good time to just leave

you in suspense. We'll be right back after this.

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A mother who probably wouldn't win mother of the year awards. Not yet. No, not yet.

No, no, no. The Lacey Garnett have moved to Rahman County, New York. They're living at the

fellowship. Everything seems really happy. But Lacey also kept saying that Garnett would sometimes

again stop eating and complain of stomach aches. She took him to see a pediatric gastroenterologist

named Dr. Ivan Daringkov, who said that Garnett was a healthy boy and that it was unusual for

the feeding tube to be left in place for such a long time. He already had it for about two years

at this point, which is unusual, especially for a kid at that age. Garnett was four at this time.

Dr. Daringkov ran a bunch of tests, all of which they came back fine. Everything came back negative,

couldn't find anything wrong. But when he wanted to do a simple nutrition test and nutrition

absorption test with the goal of removing the G2, everything came to a halt. Lacey didn't want to

do it. The visit stopped. That was it. She wanted him to have that. It certainly seems that way,

right? He requested Garnett's medical records from Alabama through Lacey. They never came.

I'm guessing she never asked for them. He was suspicious, but not 100% certain that there was a

problem. And he was right. He had suspected Munchausen syndrome by proxy, which is now known as

facetious disorder imposed on another facetious being lie, fake, fake disorder imposed on another.

It's where a caregiver creates the appearance of health problems in another person.

Often it's a parent doing this to a child, but it can be a caregiver doing it to anybody else.

So they can get sympathy, right? Yep. They will come up with some type of evidence, quote, unquote,

photos, alter test results, symptoms that they make up or exaggerate, some kind of injury.

And they, the caregiver, seek out attention for all the struggles that they go through as the

caregiver, like they're the victim of all of this, having to take care of this person.

It's a complex diagnosis. That's obviously the super short description of what's going on,

but you get the idea. Basically, the evidence you see doesn't match the story that you get,

which is exactly what the doctor saw at this point. So Dr. Darren Cobb moved on to another

practice. He stopped seeing Garnett. And unfortunately, he didn't report anything to authorities.

I can kind of understand why, because it's a serious accusation. If you're not 100% certain,

and you're a doctor, can it ruin your reputation? It could certainly come back and bite you.

But how many times have we said that it's so important to share what you know,

even if you think somebody already knows it, even if you're wrong, even if you're a suspicion,

speak up. And we'll say doctors are, and we're at the time, mandatory reporters in New York

State for child abuse. So, I think he should have said something to someone.

I would 100% agree. Again, we're looking back with perfect 2020 hindsight at this point,

but still any suspicion, anything like that, you know, teachers in New York State,

doctors, police officers, EMS, everybody, everybody that comes in contact with kids on a regular basis.

Are pretty much mandatory reporters. And I've done it myself. It's an 800 number. They take

your information. It's a state number. And then they pass it to your local agency at the county level.

And if it needs following up, it gets followed up. If not, they'll close the case. That's it.

That's it. It's not difficult to do. And then his, I mean, to me, two years with a feeding tube,

with a child who doesn't seem to have anything wrong with him.

Right. Wow. That seems to be a massive red flag. Right. And Lacey was willing to do all these

complicated tests, but when the simple one came along, that nutrition absorption, which is a

parallel straight forward. There you go. And it comes to a halt. Yeah. There's something up.

Something to hide. Yeah. On top of this, Lacey was on social media all the time posting about

garnet health problems to the point of starting a blog to document her search for the cure for

garnet health problems. Okay. More sympathy, right? Right. Another way that caregiver seek out

attention. In January of 2014, they had been living at the fellowship for about a year and a half,

garnet just turned five. And he still had the feeding tube, which he almost certainly did not

need at this point. One day, garnet started to complain about a headache and stomach ache.

And he had a fever. Lacey took him to a pediatrician who couldn't find anything wrong. Surprise.

But on January 17, 2014, garnet started screaming and pain, holding his head. He just had an explosive

headache. He was taken to Nia hospital. Now Montafur, Nia hospital, because everything is turning into

a giant conglomerate, providing the best service as more corporations gobble everything up.

I'm sure it's going to be the Disney hospital soon enough.

All right. Tangent. Sorry about that. Yeah. All right. So garnet was taken to Nia hospital.

He was admitted and he was fitted with an EEG cap to monitor his brain activity. And he had a

video camera on him to watch his physical activity. They were looking for seizures. That's why he was

on the camera. That's the primary reason, but it's also to watch his activity. And everything

looked fine. Lacey was there the whole time. She would help take care of him. She would help him

get up and go to the bathroom when he needed to do that. And for two days, he did fine. And then

everything changed. He started screaming again that his head hurt. He was trying to throw up, but

he didn't have anything in a stomach to throw up. He had problems breathing. His sodium level was

now 182, which is just about a lethal level. Remember, normal is right around 140. So he's way

above that. Nia hospital decided the best thing to do was to transfer him to the Westchester Medical

Center in Valhalla, Westchester County on the other side of the Hudson River. That's where the

Maria Ferrari Children's Hospital is. A big Children's Hospital. And when the nurse at Nia gave

a report to the doctor at Westchester, he didn't believe the sodium level. He said that's not

possible. You're going to have to repeat that. He just he didn't believe it was accurate,

but it was. It was. Garnet was flown by helicopter to Westchester on January 19th.

The staff there started IVs and they worked quickly to bring his sodium level down and he started

to improve. But unfortunately, the damage was already done. Oh no. The super high sodium level caused

Garnet's brain to swell, which is called encephalitis. Adults that get encephalitis from various

causes. They'll get bad headaches. You can get a fever, confusion, a stiff neck because it

irritates the meninges, the lining around the brain, altered mental status. You can get seizures.

You can get aphasia, which is trouble speaking. Infants and children will appear irritable.

They'll get a fever as well. Poor appetite, vomiting, seizures, and confusion. And older kids,

again, not being able to speak or put thoughts together. Garnet was put on life support on

January 22nd. The doctors and the staff at Westchester realized that the only way that Garnet's

sodium level could get so high is if someone was giving him large amounts of salt. And there was

only one person who could have done it. Yeah. I only need one guess. Yep. Well, why don't you hold

your guess because we're going to take another quick break. And then we'll see how this all plays

out. So stick around. This is Hudson River Radio dot com.

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We are back to a horrific story of a mother torturing her son his entire life.

Yeah, that's your that your official guess. That's my official guess. Yep. Well, I think it's

going to probably play out where you're correct. At this point, Westchester County Police

Detective Dan Carfey got the first call from the hospital because the hospital did the right

thing and realized there was a problem. He started an investigation along with the Ramippo police

detectives here in Rockland County, detectives Kirk, Budnik and Greg Dunn. Carfey over in West

chester went to the hospital and Budnik and Dunn got a search warrant for their apartment at

the fellowship. And at the home, they found medicines set out on a table along with a big can of

salt. There was actual can of salt can of salt. Yep. There was an IV style bag hanging from a pole.

Remember, we talked about right administering through the G tube. There was another IV style bag in

the garbage can. There were syringes and tubes, holistic medicines, vitamins, a strange combination

of stuff just laid out in the apartment. Lacey told the detectives she was breastfeeding.

And the substance in the bags look like breast milk. So they didn't take them at the time.

Oh, the detectives all went to the hospital to speak with Lacey who was strangely cooperative

and happy to have the attention of these detectives. She was happy to be interviewed as opposed

to wanting to go be with her son. She wanted to sit and speak with the detectives.

She would later say that she was denied the opportunity to be with Garnet.

I know who I'm going to believe, which side of that story. Right. All right. I have a feeling you

would agree with me. Yes. And while this was going on, Lacey called the neighbor at the fellowship,

Valerie Plausch, who was devastated to hear about Garnet being a brain dead and on life support,

because like we said earlier, everybody who knew Garnet on the grounds loved the kid. Lacey asked

Plausch to go into the apartment, take the feeding bag off the pole and throw it away.

Oh, please tell me she didn't do that. Well, Plausch was walking over to Lacey's apartment

when she came across another neighbor who made a comment that, yeah, you know, the police were

just in there. And fortunately, Plausch had second thoughts about throwing anything away.

Instead, she took the bag, she put it into a garbage bag and brought it to her apartment.

She told the supervisors at the fellowship what was going on. And they in turn took the bag,

called the Ramaphob police back and turned it over to them.

All right. And Kevin for that. At least it was saved. Detectives also went back into the

apartment. They recovered the second bag that was already in the garbage along with other stuff in

the apartment. They sent them both out for testing. Lacey would deny asking Plausch to remove

anything from the apartment. She said that she merely asked her to go over and see what condition

the police had left the place in. You know, see what happened at the apartment. Right. So what

was found in the feeding bag? She wanted to take a guess. Salt. A lot of it. A lot of it. Each bag

had at least the equivalent of 69 of those little salt packets that you get would take out for.

Oh, and a little kid. Each bag had at least that much salt in it. Wow. Yeah. Which of course,

Lacey denied putting it in the bag. She implied that someone else must have done it. And

the bags had changed hands several times since being taken from the apartment. So couldn't have been

hurt. Someone along the way must have put the salt in the bag. Sure. Yep. She was framed. Yep.

So on January 23rd, 2014, the next day after a garnet was put on life support, he was unfortunately

taken off life support. And he was declared dead at only five years old. Wow. The autopsy results

took 10 weeks to come back on April 24th, 2014. The Westchester County Medical Examiner

ruled guarded Spears death homicide. And there was only one suspect. Right. That would be Lacey.

Where do you even get the idea to give a kid too much salt? Yeah. Yeah. That's a good question.

That's, that's bizarre. Yep. So Westchester Detective Carfee started to look into Lacey's

background at this point. He reached out to the DA's office in Morgan County, Alabama, where

Decatur is located. He spoke with investigator Johnny Coker who while they were having a conversation

realized that he knew Lacey. He had known her from church, believe it or not. And it was Coker

who figured out that Lacey lied about garnet's father. His biological father was Chris Hill,

like we said at the top. She had been telling everybody you'll recall that her father's name was

Blake, who was a police officer and who died in a car crash. She posted about that on social media.

She posted about all the missed holidays that they didn't get to have with him going to his

memorial service. Well, it turns out that Lacey had met a Blake about 10 years earlier. That would be

Sergeant Blake Robinson from the Morgan County Sheriff's office who was alive and well.

And not, not just a little bit surprised that he was somehow drawn into this mess.

Oh, wow. Someone he had met briefly a couple of times like 10 years ago. I don't know if they

dated just cross paths. That I don't know. But a decade before. And yeah. So I'll talk about

being blindsided just all of a sudden. Now your name is dragged into this. He obviously had nothing

to do with it. Chris Hill said that Lacey had shut him out even though he wanted to be part of

garnets upbringing. She wouldn't allow it. Garnet's medical records in Alabama and New York were

subpoenaed. And the detectives started to interview the doctors who saw garnet. There were about

20 different doctors offices involved, which is another giant red flag when you have that

and investigator Coker found a few who were suspicious at the time as in the doctors were

suspicious that there was a problem. Oh, okay. Right. Yeah. One of them actually documented

possible munchausen by proxy in the medical records and didn't take any action. I was just

going to say and did what? Yeah. Didn't do anything. I don't honestly know in Alabama. I'm going to

guess that there's mandatory reporting as well. But I I don't know. Anybody in Alabama wants to

fill me in on that. I'm not really sure. But you would think again, hindsight being 2020 that if

you're going to write that in a medical record, maybe take it to the next step. So there were a

number of odd observations that again with 2020 hindsight should have been acted upon.

High sodium levels were noted when garnet was 10 weeks old. He had one visit where he was bleeding

from his eyes and ears with no explanation. Wow. There were calls made to child protective services,

but due to privacy issues, a lot of the details were redacted from journalists trying to dig to the

bottom of this. But those reports were investigated and closed allegedly unsubstantiated.

Don't know the details behind all that kind of stuff. But from there, the case actually moved

pretty quickly. Lacey Spears was arrested in Westchester County. She was indicted by a

grand jury on charges of second degree murder and first degree manslaughter on June 17th, 2014.

Her defense attorneys, you're going to love these guys. Oh no. Yeah. David Sacks and Steve

Stephen Rebling, R-I-B-L-A-N-G. I think I'm saying that right. Rebling Rebling.

Said that garnet's death was a medical mistake with NIAC hospital being at fault.

Sacks was quoted saying it was clear through her actions and her demeanor. Obviously she didn't do

this and from the first second said I didn't do this. That's the defense. That's part of the defense.

Yeah, because we have to believe when someone says I didn't kill my son. Nobody lies to the police.

No. Oh my god. That was quite the defense. Yep. And how do they explain the sodium levels

high since he was 10 weeks old? Oh, sit tight. We'll get there. Oh no. Yep. So Westchester County

ADA's Doreen Lloyd and Patricia Murphy, amongst other things, showed the video taken when Garnet

was in NIAC hospital. Remember, they had the camera on him, right? Right. Procedures.

The video showed Garnet sitting up in bed. He was awake. He was happy. He was in good condition.

Lacey takes him to the bathroom shortly after. He comes back and his sodium levels go through the roof.

Hmm. Well, that's a coincidence. Yep. The defense said that the video was exonerating

because it didn't show Lacey doing anything. And Lacey, on top of that, had searched the internet

about high sodium levels. Looking for. That's exonerating. Looking for signs and symptoms of it. Yes,

this is exonerating. She's looking for the dangers and signs of high sodium levels.

Okay. All right. It's suspicious. No. No. Because she went off camera and came back and then he was sick.

That's exonerating. Correct. I think those defense attorneys needed dictionary.

Correct. To find out what exonerating really means. Correct. So the one thing, believe it or not,

that never came up during the whole trial was Munchausen by proxy. Nobody brought it up.

It would be the defense's responsibility to argue it as a defense if they wanted to go that route.

But their strategy was just to cast enough doubt to not get a conviction. Remember, things had to

be proven beyond a reasonable doubt. Right. So their whole strategy was about trying to just cast

enough doubt where she wouldn't get convicted. Throw everything against the wall and hope one thing.

Exactly. Exactly. You know, and I've said it before, everybody deserves a competent defense,

but there comes a point where all right. That's yes. You're preaching to the choir here. How

these people can live with themselves. They knew damn well. She killed him.

Right. And it is their job to defend their client. I'm not going to knock him for that. But

when the strategies are, you know, can can drip through a strainer without slowing down.

Yeah. So she never had an official diagnosis of Munchausen by proxy and never came up. There

was suspicions. Again, we're looking at it after the fact and you're like, well done.

But on March 2nd, 2015, the jury found Lacey Spears guilty of secondary murder depraved and

difference murder of a child on April 8th, 2015 at sentencing. Judge Robert Neary said,

this is a great quote, one does not have to be a psychologist to realize you suffer from a mental

illness known as Munchausen by proxy. Finally, it was the judge who brought it up after at sentencing.

He sentenced her to 20 years to life in prison, as opposed to the maximum 25 years to life.

And we'll go on and say, do you even realize the magnitude of your crime? By not imposing the

maximum sentence, I'm combining punishment with something that you really did not exhibit

towards your son, namely mercy. Wow. Yeah. Well, I wouldn't have. I would have given the maximum.

Yeah. Yeah, I would have been there with you. But at least, I think he got it right. And I'm glad

he pointed it out. So her conviction, of course, was appealed and it was upheld by the New York

State appellate court and the court of appeals declined to review her case at all. So everything,

the conviction stood. Okay. So a minimum of 20 years, minimum of 20 years. She is currently in the

Bedford Hills correction facility for women, which is in Northeast Westchester. Oh, we have brought

that up. That's where all the best female murderers go. Yeah. Yeah. That's where Martha Stewart was,

too. Yeah. And Lacey will be eligible. We'll be first eligible for parole on June 12th,

2034. She will be 46 years old with a lot of life allegedly. Yeah. If she gets out, she has more

than enough time to harm numerous people. Yeah. So we're going to have to put that on our calendar.

I'm assuming we're still going to be doing the show in 2030. I'm assuming I'm still alive in

2030. Oh, you'll be, you got, you have more books to write. You have a lot of work to do. So yeah,

you'll be okay. I can't die yet. That's right. So yeah, we'll have to try to keep an eye on that.

This whole time and still to this day, she claims to be innocent that she had nothing to do with it.

Yeah. She's obviously delusional lives in a world that she's made up. And God knows what story she's

telling in prison now about who knows what who was really guilty. I'm sure she's made up stories

to convince herself that she's the victim again. I'm sure. And one thing we've brought up before,

if you if you Google pictures of her, the interview she did on 48 hours and the trial and all

that trial, she's wearing glasses. They always put glasses on a defendant because it makes them

look smarter. Oh, okay. Go ahead and search for yourself. They put glasses on defendants. Yeah.

Why? Well, that was, that was a tough one because anytime anyone does anything to a child,

I mean, from 10 weeks old. Wow. No wonder she didn't want the father involved at all. How could she

torture her son? Right. With somebody with a witness. Right. And somebody who lived in the same

apartment complex too, assuming they hadn't moved. Right. Like she did, but they were right there. So

yeah, even for him to go back and forth between parents would have been, you know, across the

complex. Go visit dad kind of thing. Right. And dad would have been happy to have him. So I can't

even imagine. There you go. There you go. It was 11 years ago, 12 years ago. And I honestly didn't

know anything about this one. It doesn't, it doesn't ring a bell. I'm surprised. Yeah. Yeah.

Wow. Well, thanks so much for giving me nightmares. Oh, well, thank you everyone for joining

us tonight. And we will see you back here on murder in the Hudson Valley. If Lacey Spears isn't

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