Can mature workers make your team stronger?

You're listening to a CNA podcast.

Net, if you have to learn something from someone at work, would you prefer to learn from someone

with a lot of experience, decades of experience, or just someone with fresh ideas?

Gerald, do I have to choose?

Yes.

Well, because I feel like you can't need a little bit of both.

You know, a little bit of experience from someone who has been working for several years,

but also the fresh perspective of someone who is new, right?

So, I don't know.

I feel like the space in there to learn from multiple different generations,

but I also understand it can be difficult.

Yeah, definitely so.

But multi-generations, you know, it exists in all world places today,

and it's so important that we all learn how to work with everyone, whether they are in the 20s

or all the way up to their 60s.

Welcome back to the Wukid Podcast.

I'm Net, and with me, as always, it's my co-host Gerald.

And this episode of Wukid is brought to you by the Ministry of Manpower.

Here to help us unpack what it takes for people from different generations

to work well together are two guests from Kampong Kapoor Community Services

who are living proof that when different generations work together, everyone wins.

Joining us today are Hindran, a 67-year-old case worker

who has returned to work on a flexible work arrangement,

as well as Bavani Pillai, a centerhead at KKCS

who leads the intergenerational team that Hindran is a part of.

Welcome to the both of you.

Thanks for joining us on the Wukid Podcast.

Thank you. Thank you for having us.

So Hindran, let's start with you.

You spent two years on a little bit of a break.

We won't call it a retirement, yes.

So what was the moment in those two years

where you realized that the quiet life just wasn't cutting it for you?

I was doing some other things.

It was not exactly quiet, although sometimes I prefer to be quiet.

But then I decided that I have so much of experience,

so I think you'll be good to come back and serve the community.

Was there something that you were looking for

in terms of your own personal growth?

Yes, of course.

Because the world has changed so fast.

So coming back is also to pick up some of the things

that probably I've never learned previously.

So it's a good opportunity for me to grow also as a person

in many aspects, in this sector.

So I wanted to bring Bavani into the conversation as well.

Like as the manager, when you see someone

like Hindran put in an application,

what was your thought about his application?

Actually, someone like Hindran

doesn't need to put in an application.

Is there a reputation that you should say?

Exactly, because I mean we walked together

before he took a break.

So I think Hindran left the lasting impression

not just with me, but also our team.

Because right till his last day,

it was always about service.

And I think that's just Hindran's life story.

It is about giving back.

So he was always in my radar.

And I think when we really needed help and power wise,

he was one of the first person I thought of to call.

And now he's on a flexi work.

That's right.

Alright, flexi work.

What does it mean in terms of the work arrangements for you guys?

So it was looking at what would be comfortable for his schedule

because he was also juggling volunteering work.

So we carved out something that was comfortable

that he was also willing to take on,

which was about two and a half days in a week.

From a management perspective,

some leaders may worry about bringing in someone

on a flexi work or part-time basis

because it might slow down the rest of the team's workflows.

Was this something that you considered

when you brought Hindran back into the fold?

If I didn't open up the hiring pool

to include freelancers and part-timers,

we would really be strapped.

Yeah, and Hindran came on board at a time

where we really needed manpower.

And it wasn't so easy to hire a permanent staff

with this level of experience

who was willing to come on board.

When you are bringing in someone who's experienced,

there's less hand holding.

It doesn't slow down.

And then if you're able to carve out a portfolio,

meaning there are certain types of cases

that I know Hindran is comfortable to take on.

It doesn't slow down the workforce at all.

In fact, it helps to smoothen things.

Right.

Not just Hindran, we tapped on a few freelancers.

And these were egg staff

who maybe took a break because they had a child.

And then they were looking to come back

but they want to ease back into the workforce.

They didn't want a full load.

So I think offering a flexible work arrangement

enabled me to bring some of these people

that I knew would value at into our team

and then craft out a portion of work

that was a win-win for both ourselves as an organisation

and for them who wanted to come back into the workforce.

Hindran, for you, when you were having that conversation

to decide what to do, how many hours to put in,

what was the top process for you?

After so many years, I thought I should slow down a pit now.

So I can do some of other things

that I always wanted to do on my own.

So that gives me a flexibility.

So I think Powering helped me to,

I mean, she understood where I'm coming from.

So we negotiated.

And so that's how I'm in on a part-time basis.

Yeah.

Because you didn't say right,

everything moves so fast nowadays.

Yes.

Right.

Did you ever feel that when you come back,

everything's going to be different.

You're going to be out of touch

and it's going to be a struggle to catch back up?

Yes.

Fear is there, but I think

sometimes fear is good.

Then you'll be curious to go and find out.

So I used to keep in touch with some of my friends

in the sector.

Used to have lunch and coffee with them.

So I get updated like what's going on in the sector.

Right. So you were still,

you know, for the two years,

the you were away, you were still very much embedded

in the industry.

Yeah.

In terms of the rest of the team,

when they have someone at Hindron coming in on a part-time basis,

how do they take to it?

You know, I'm just curious.

Like because there are some days it's going to be there.

It's not going to be there.

I mean, was there an impact to the work

for the rest of the team?

So we have a joke, right?

That people who said or have something

to share gravitate towards Hindron.

He's like our de facto counsellor in office.

I mean, there are a few people like that,

but I think Hindron's one of our...

That person that people feel safe to talk to.

It could be his age, it could be his demeanor.

It's just the kind of person that he is, his personality.

So then I think, yeah, that helps to smoothen things.

You know, if there's something that is troubling someone,

he's very quick to pick up.

Like today, you look a bit like,

what was the intake okay for you?

Do you need to check in?

And he does this out of his own will.

He's not a supervisor.

It's not part of his official role,

which we really appreciate.

Did you find that it was easier or more difficult

to, I guess, accomplish or finish your tasks?

Now that, you know, it's only two days,

two and a half days a week.

I just have to learn how to, you know,

manage the given time and how much I can do.

So if there's some things that I'm struggling with,

I usually tell Pawani that, you know,

like, you know, I'm struggling with this.

Maybe we can look at what we can do.

How can we do it better?

I do wonder though, how you delegate

or how you manage workflows or workloads as the team leader.

When you have a mix of full-time employees,

part-time employees, freelancers, flexi workers,

how do you make sure that everything is being covered by somebody?

No work is slipping through the cracks.

For our work, it's okay to think of case load

as a way to a portion work for freelancers.

So I may have one person who comes in who takes less than five or 10 cases.

I have another person who says, okay,

but this time, you know, this period I can do more.

So it allows me to apportion it that way.

It's a bit different if everyone's work was dependent on each other.

We're not factory workers.

You know what I mean?

So the processes are in some ways we are able to delineate.

But then in terms of also the, as a FSC looking after your cases,

sometimes they have needs that occur on the days that you're off.

And then how?

Then the supervisors step in.

So actually the seniors do bear quite a bit of the supportive role,

which is why they have a lower case load.

So for example, if I know hindrance is not around on Monday and Tuesday,

if there's an any emergency, the call is directed to his supervisor.

So I think that helps us to look at coverage,

which means the supervisor also needs to know that they are the next in line.

Which is what I meant by we work in teams,

because then if it's not the supervisor, someone else will need to step in,

especially if there's risk.

Would the supervisor feel like there's more work for them to do?

Well, I'm hindrance supervisor.

So far, it's not been more work.

In fact, I'm really like, yes, I think so far.

No, of course, I think we have to see us supporting each other as an investment,

because when I'm away, my supervisor steps in for me.

So again, it's not about the age.

It's about we just cover each other.

It is part of our work.

I like how you put it right because it makes it seem like, you know, every worker,

whether they're full time or flexi, they're all in asset, right?

They're all there to help you if you know how to partner and work with them.

I wonder whether, you know, hindrance experience and, you know, his maturity

or maybe his perspective as someone who has spent that many years doing social work before.

Was there a time where his unique perspective or experience actually benefited

a younger case worker or a younger team member?

I do sometimes check in with some of my younger workers,

if they start with something, you know, just like what's going on, you know.

Then I can just share, based on my experience,

like how you can look at the case differently.

We have been discussing about these two families that needed help,

that the current worker is a really very stretch and needed someone with a little bit more experience

and to come in and see how I can support these two workers.

hindrance good in working with men or he's able to connect with a different client population

which some of our younger workers may struggle with.

It really shows that I think Bavani really knows her team very well.

She knows every worker, she knows what hindrance is very capable of

and knows how to deploy. I think it's not just about making sure that you work two days a week

but you want to utilize its strengths in a certain way that has synergistic effect on the whole team,

right? It's not just helping the cases but also helping the team itself.

And this I hear also makes hindrance feel different.

Like he's not just helping his cases, but he's helping to foster a better team culture,

helping his colleagues, you know, cope better as well with that work.

So it's a net multiplier effect.

And he also has a very good knowledge bank of community resources

because hindrance volunteers quite a bit, right?

So he knows how pro bono works, he knows the family court system,

he got low bunk from God knows where.

So it helps us, you know, sometimes during intake of your bill.

This, you know, what do we do with this case?

That's when his, sometimes his inputs is helpful.

Not just, you know, with one case, but just giving information to the team.

We have a team WhatsApp group chat.

Every morning there's a court, inspiring courts that hindrance ends at 6 a.m.

That's when we know he wakes up.

Yeah, I think these are little things that make a difference.

Wow, wow, I can imagine like there's somebody like,

it's like a guru lah.

Yeah.

I'm giving you inspiration right from the morning when you wake up before,

you know, you're following me.

So the question is, who inspires him, Jun?

Wow, there's a lot of, off-hat say you're wearing,

you're the guru, you're the low bunking.

I don't know, I'm just doing what I can.

The thing I'm taking away is that they have a really good culture in KKCS,

you know, a workplace in which there's an inherent trust.

Yes.

You know, a lot of communication.

And I wonder how, you know, you built that

to be able to be so transparent with each other,

to be able to trust each other so much.

Is that something that was consciously built?

That's such a good question.

I'm consciously thinking about it now,

because there are some things that I guess we just do.

And we always say the work is hard enough as it is.

We can't do the work if we don't have each other's back.

Yeah, so I think that really guides us,

not to say that we don't have conflicts,

not to say that, you know, we don't get burnt out, we do.

And I think during those times,

anchors like Hendren really help to steer the team,

or to keep things in perspective,

because we're in it for the long haul.

There are times where we may need to take a break.

But, you know, I think the culture in KKCS has been,

you take a break, you come back.

I took a break for four years, I came back.

So I think that's just part of the culture.

But when you, since you have this experience now,

working with Hendren, right,

like if someone in another company wants to hire,

or rather wants to consider hiring someone on a flexi work,

right, an older worker,

wondering whether to keep them or not,

you know, what advice will you give that person,

that the manager?

I think look beyond a job description,

because on paper, yes, Hendren feels like you're doing the same thing.

But the value is so much more than what we see or recognise formally.

Yeah, and I think that the value is an asset to the culture,

the difference in perspectives,

especially in the social service sector,

because we are so front-facing.

And if our team is not as diverse as the people we serve,

sometimes there's lack of resonance.

So I think having mature workers helps us to connect better

with the community that we serve.

So if we recognise all these implicit values,

then it's more than just a digital manpower.

Yeah, not talking about digits, right?

One of the things that often I hear about is about the money,

right, because it gets prorated.

The salary gets cut, and sometimes for the worker is like,

I'm doing the same thing, I'm getting less.

So if I'm getting so much, if I as a full-time,

I have to understand and accept that,

I should be getting this, if I'm not doing full-time.

So that acceptance has to come in first,

and then I have to manage with whatever I'm getting,

and then see what we can work on in the future.

Yeah, and that's how I settle in.

Having come back after your two years of going out there

and finding yourself, was it something

that you picked up from your younger colleagues

that you wouldn't have picked up if you had just gone off

in three-time?

A lot to learn from the younger colleagues,

because their energy and enthusiasm actually reminds me

of the day that I came into the sector,

and also looking forward and with high energy,

you're doing things.

So I see that in the younger workers,

many of our colleagues are very dedicated workers.

When I picked up from them,

besides my experiences, the creativeness

and the fresh perspective they have in today's sector,

sometimes challenges the traditional approach.

So I have to make adjustments,

I cannot just stay in the old school right.

So you'll be living in a different era now,

so we need to adjust that.

So I picked up things from them,

like the systems, the new systems and technology

that's coming up.

We picked up from them.

Have they taught you about six, seven,

or anything?

No, there's a lot of things going on.

Oh yeah, we have to work in our office.

Yeah, and we are having fun.

We are having fun.

I don't know if you'll see us.

That's great.

So I guess for anyone out there,

any other seniors who might be considering

returning to the workforce,

do you have any advice for them

on the mindset that they should embody

when they come back to the workplace?

I would say not to take HS a barrier,

just continue to be curious,

but I think besides motivation,

I think curiosity actually moves you further.

Right.

So be curious and learn,

get yourself updated what is going on

because the world is changing so far

it's the last six, seven years.

A lot of changes happen

at Singapore and technology and everything.

So that is one thing.

And then you have to believe that

you have good experience and, you know,

you are an asset actually.

And I think a lot of employees today

they value that the assets they will have

your experiences and the wisdom.

Yeah, I think it's appreciated.

So I think you have to believe in yourself

that you can come in and contribute

and even do some mentorship for the younger workers.

And you will stand out.

Yeah, yeah.

I think that point about mentorship is very important.

What I've seen in many younger workers is

they often say that they want to

they wish that someone older, more cinema experience

to guide them to show them the ropes a little bit

so that they can understand how it's done

before they decide how they want to do it.

This has taught me a lot about,

you know, the perspective that I've had

on multi-generational workers, you know.

It might be difficult,

but there's a lot of value that,

you know, you could also bring into the workforce

by having different generations work together.

So for all of you listening and watching,

if you're an older worker, younger worker,

write into us, let us know your thoughts on this episode.

And we wouldn't have this episode of the

Work It Podcast without the team behind it,

hope-aining, Juna'ni Juhari,

Zikri Aiman, Joen Chan,

Tiffany Ang and Shalintan.

Goodew and sound by Jeremy Chen.

Abjaro, and I'm Nat.

At the end of the day,

good work has no age limit.

This episode of Work It is brought to you

by the Ministry of Manpower.