Brad Stine Has Issues! - Do Christian Apologists Stand to Reason?

0:00Well, hello, everybody. It is another Monday night. It is Bradstein has issues with God's comic, Bradstein. Where? Comedy, Christianity and conservatism collide in a cacophony of clarity. I am in a bad mood, a terrible mood. The good news is I got a great guest. He is one of the top apologists in the United States well around the world. He has debated and been in discussions with atheists and people of all walks of life. And he has one of the best books on evangelism called tactics. Greg Coco is with me. He's been one of the guys that I've been wanted to add to the mix of a handful of people that means they are inspirations to me when it comes to being out in the marketplace telling people about Christ. I got some things to tell you guys. But before I do that, I have somebody that wants to tell you about who they are and what you can buy so that this podcast can remain.

1:03Listen up. Two do else. Fifth category. Stephen Meyer of Discovery Institute. Frank Turek, I call him the blue color apologist. William Lane Craig. Oh, what an honor that was. You Ross. Let's see who else Eric Metaxas. Oh, Jay Warner Wallace, Alyssa Childer. So all these people that I like that I've been wanting to talk to. I got to Greg was not there yet. I wanted him. And now I got him. So folks very, very excited on bread sign has this year's for this next guest. He has been a hold out from all the apologists that jumped on because they knew how incredibly important my podcast was. But he said, no, I'm going to wait and make sure it's bearing fruit before I jump in. So I give him credit for being such a man of honor. And he's also a man that I have used his book not only for myself, but for talking to folks in the church, which is my call. I am not an evangelist. My call is to the church. Those who go to church, think they're believers. And I'm saying, actually, you got a long way to go as do we all. But it's about the idea of discipleship that we

2:07are supposed to be robust believers that we are supposed to be the most intelligent. The last truth tellers, we are literally the ones that hold the book that is the revelation of reality. There's nothing like it. And that's we need to be those who proclaim that book is positively and powerfully as possible. But you got to learn how to do it. You got to practice. And so this book here, right here, I got their tactics is one that I recommend to people who want to become disciples because it's a great way to teach you how to engage people on your faith, which isn't easy to do. Especially if you're like most Christians in America, you haven't done any work because you're lazy. So we're going to see if we can fix that today by bringing on a man I can't wait to speak to. And most importantly, I know how to pronounce his name. Mr. Greg Coco, how do you do brother? Perfect. Perfectly done there, Brad. I'm doing fine. Thank you for having me on. And I'm looking forward to our conversation. Well, then you're going to have to raise the bar because I don't know how well I'm going to be able to fill this up. I'm a comic. I don't know if you're familiar with my ministry or show whatsoever. And you don't have to be. But if you are, yeah,

3:10I like to have fun. But most importantly, I care about the depth of what we are here to discuss. And you know, I've seen many interviews that you've done over the years. And, you know, they deal with your book tactics or numerous apologetic books or maybe they're bringing you on to debate. I saw you with, was it Alex O'Connor maybe? Yeah, a couple of months ago. Yeah. And I respect Alex O'Connor. He's one of the few atheists that take God seriously. But the moment they give me the sky daddy stuff, I don't pay attention anymore because I really feel like he takes the idea of God seriously. Yeah. Right, right, right, right. Well, but it means that's a better, it's a better starting point than the guys. I agree. He's very transparent. He's very authentic. I think largely and the debate we had was, was actually informal. It was discussion with two others on the DOAC, the diary of a CEO. Yeah. And I actually, that's my first encounter with him. And I, I do have a lot of admiration for him. So I'm with you on that. Yeah. And, you know, I think it's one of the most challenging

4:10things I have when it comes to talking to an atheist. I had one on my show and I called it the atheist experiment because I wanted to, so I want to get your take on this. This center of you might be a little bit of a hybrid of what you're used to. Usually they either bring you on to talk about the boss questions. And keep that in mind as I stumble through this. But, you know, people will bring you on like with an Alex and, and you'll be defending the faith in real time, obviously using your techniques, or they'll bring you on about helping Christians be better apologists, right? So one of those two things, but I think what I'd like to do is maybe ask you some questions on your personal take as a believer that can inspire us, but also then maybe how that might also apply to the techniques therein because I'm going to, I want to get as much bang for my buck here as I can. And you're one of the few that did that unique thing is that you didn't just give us a wonderful apologetics. I've had William Lincoln Craig on and, you know, wonderful, incredible brilliant

5:12folks. Sure. But they kind of give you the information then to say, now, how are you going to deliver that? Well, that's the tricky part. And that's where you were tactics really came in, but I also want to talk about something else, Greg, if I may call you that. Sure. I feel a concern not only for engaging the non-believer, which is important, but I got to be honest with you. I think there's another huge problem in the church in America, and I always differentiate American Christianity from everybody else, because we're the weakest, I think the most shallow, the most superficial of all the believers were white, because we're not persecuted yet. It's common, but because it doesn't cost us anything, we take it for granted. But I'm curious about that. So that's kind of where I wanted to start and get your take on this, because you talk to so many people around the country. My concern is the woke Christian. My concern is the progressive Christian. If I can even attach the word Christian to it, I think it's misnomer.

6:12I believe we used to use the different word we call that heretics. But I wanted to ask you that first, because I want to be very careful. It's so easy, but once we land on our presuppositional worldviews, to get stuck in not seeing nuances and not being able to see blurb, we might have missed something. It's so crucial to be open to, did I misinterpret this or am I a little realistic here in losing a perspective that I need to be able to grow in? But tell me about that. Where do you see the church in general in America? That's the territory we're in, and also this idea of progressive church. It's crucial because they're shown up in the culture. They're shown up in Minneapolis riots. They're shown up in BLM. So it's essential that we differentiate a true believer in how we navigate culture and those who claim the moniker Christian but are deceiving people. So how do you find, are there some clues? This guy ain't one of us,

7:15but he's certainly using our churchy entity. Well, I think we're all aware that this word Christian has become like a wax nose. Very malleable covers all kinds of different things. LDS consider themselves Christians. So I'm not sure that your whole business is, yes, we'll quite say that because they don't want to identify with us where LDS do, but LDS is a completely different religion if people knows any of the details. A lot of the same words, the languages the same, the meanings are entirely different, and you have progressive Christians. I think it's like Brad, something like 65 or 70% of the people in this country self-identify as Christian, but when you look at the particulars of what it is that they hold to be true, and that's the critical issue, when you look at what they say they believe under the broader rubric of Christian, it turns out that they're nothing like what you might call a classical Christian, and it's standard reason the organization I represent. We train Christians, that's how our mission starts, our mission statement starts, which means I'm on board with you. I mean,

8:19discipleship is really my heartbeat, personally, a knot of angelism. Okay, of course, obviously, what we do helps to augment effective evangelism, and that's important, obviously, to the body of Christ, but we're for the Christian, but what we do is we teach them to think more clearly, this is all part of our mission statement, and to defend classical Christianity and classical Christian values. Now, I've reduced all the issues down to a core few that is what see us known as called mere Christianity, the basic thing that has historically defined Christianity. Now, it turns out that progressive Christians will just use the term, because that's the term in play. You're right, they used to be called heretics, but the culture is very different now, and calling them heretics isn't going to help you engage more effectively, but it is important to be thinking in that way so you can distinguish true Christianity from something else that's not Christianity, even though it bears that name. Okay, and it turns out when you look

9:20at the foundational elements of the nature of God, the nature of human beings, who Jesus is, and what He came to do, the nature of the work of the cross, and the final disposition of all things, and the way I characterize that is either perfect justice or perfect mercy. When you look at those things, so-called progressives reject almost everything, principally, because those truths are grounded in Scripture, which they reject. So once you reject Scripture as an authority, you know, it's a crapshoot then, it's anybody's game, and whatever feels right to you, that's the right thing. So we've shifted from, to use kind of philosophical terms, objectivism with regards to truth, our beliefs matching up with the way the world actually is, or in this case, what Scripture helps us to understand the nature of the world, some of the things we can figure out on our own, and what we feel inside a subjectivism, what is it that determines what's truth? And the culture

10:23is saying, you do you, whatever you believe is true for you, are you making your own reality that kind of thing, and that's what progressives have embraced, and most of them are coming out of a more, I want to be careful how I characterize this. A more orthodox or classical Christianity background, though a lot of times it's, it's very fundamentalistic. I got some things to tell you guys, but before I do that, I have somebody that wants to tell you who they are and what you can buy, so that this podcast can remain. Listen up. Which means you got the fundamentals in there, nothing wrong with that, but usually fundamentalism entails a whole bunch of blue laws, you know, we don't smoke, drink, or cure, go with those that do, and bunch of cultural things that are added. Anyway, it's too constraining for them, and I'm in some degree, I'm sympathetic to that, and they don't really understand, this is my point of view, just watching. They don't understand Christianity. Yeah, I can't remember this.

11:27Fellas, I always have a hard time recalling his name. He's a quarterback, he used to play for, I think he plays for this dealers now, or for the, no, he used to play for the Green Bay Packers, a older guy. Oh, Bart star? No, no, no, not that old. He's still playing. Oh, he's, Aaron Rogers, yeah, Aaron. Okay, yeah, Rogers, right. Okay, so he used to be a Christian. Oh, and now he's not, and so he had an interview, and I read details of the interview, in fact, I included some writing said I've done, and he says, I can't believe it in a God that would send people to hell just because they didn't believe in him. Well, that's not the gospel. People are going to hell because they don't believe in God. That's a complete distortion. Yeah. And so he comes out of a Christian background and does not understand Christianity. Right. I'm not trying to, I'm not trying to diss him. I'm just trying to use him as an example of somebody who rejects a false, yes, or a false understanding or a caricature that looks ugly to him. And it would be ugly if that's what we held. Yeah, but in any event,

12:31so a lot of progressives are like that, they come out of churches, they don't have a lot of depth of understanding, no apologetics, or very little no understanding of why there are good reasons to believe what classically Christianity is held to be true. And they get the basic wrong, you know, and then they read the Bible, I say, this stuff, I'm reading ridiculous things in the Bible, you know, this is the way they take it. Now, there are some difficult challenges that need to be understood in light of the culture and the context and a whole bunch of other stuff. And most of those people are not willing, Brad, just to take the time to get it. It's just like I'm done with that. I'm moving on to whatever. Yeah. And when you look at progressives, that is, progressives hold on to the word Christian for some reason. I think they see some nobility in Christianity at some level, which is why they identify as Christian of some sort. But progressiveism has no orthodoxy. There's no absolute except for you've got to reject all of

13:31all of the classical Christian stuff, you know, and so they're sexually fluid, you know, this is their views, their pro-abortion, they embrace a lot of leftist political causes as the gospel. I mean, for progressives, the gospel is social justice. That's the gospel. Right. And of course, this is that itself is a loaded term because there is a sense where actually, I think the term comes out of Catholicism a long time ago and it had an appropriate indication to social concerns. But now it's influenced deeply by critical theory and it's basically paybacks. Social justice is we're paying you guys back, you know, now we're in power and we're going to do to you what you guys did to us. Whatever the you is, that characteristically is those who supposedly part of the center of the power circle and write it at the absolute center are white cis-gendered Christian males, you know, so you and I

14:34presume you're a cis-gender, you and I are the worst of the worst, okay? So they just flip the power structure. So that's a little bit of a picture it's going on in Christianity and this is why we have to be mindful of the language we use because these words are misunderstood. I became a Christian 52 years ago that Jesus movement and back then everybody had to stood the language and the concepts and they didn't believe them all necessarily or they say they believe and didn't follow them, but they weren't hostile. Now there's an open hostility and the so-called good news of the gospel is considered hate speech by a lot of people. So we're in a very strange situation here now getting more and more difficult as the years have gone down with an exception though, something and maybe you've noticed this Brad, something's been happening in the last few years, okay? And Justin Briarly, you might know who he is, a British host. He's not sure. Oh good. Yeah,

15:36he's wonderful. And anyway, he wrote a book called the, I think it's called the remarkable resurgence of belief in God or something like that. Yeah, let's say hey Justin, you know, next time you write a book, make sure that the title is easy to remember like tactics, right? Yeah, but anyway, what he is looking at is over because he's interviewed lots and lots of very smart people on his show in England and it was kind of like a point counterpoint situation. You got an atheist in a Christian, for example, or even Christians that have differing views on hell or whatever. So he's wonderful host and a very thoughtful guy in this book was great because he's looking at what's happening with the cognizant of the world. In other words, the smart guy is which for the most part have been, you know, materialist, physicalist, atheist or whatever, non-religious because they thought that's the smart way to go. And now they're realizing that this isn't working because their deepest values and what they think about the nature of the world

16:39as they're just looking around their deepest intuitions about they do not match what atheism dictates for those things. Atheism dictates that life is at the core, meaning lists. As human beings, we see, Chea doesn't seem right. Atheism at the core denies any objective morality. And so when I was on with Alex O'Connor a few months ago, he made it very clear, you know, all moral statements are emotional things. We're just stating emotions. Because he's an emotivist, right? He emotivist, exactly right. Now, if that's true, there's no problem of evil. But wait a minute, it doesn't matter where you lived or when you lived, everybody knows something is wrong with the world. The world is broken, okay? And so as an atheist, then you have to deny certain things that seem to be so obvious, okay? If you're going to adopt that worldview. In other words, it can't be true if it doesn't fit the world the way it really is. And those are two examples of how it doesn't fit what we know to be true about the

17:42world. Okay, what's happening, though, is like in the cognizant, the people are waking up to this. And so you've got people like Tom Holland, the atheistic historian, Britt, and Douglass Murray, a kind of, Murray calls himself a Christian atheist. Because his worldview is atheist, but his everything that he values completely even to the place where Dawkins recently called himself a cultural Christian. That's right. Things have gone really sideways for their worldview. If Dawkins has added the word Christian to him, to himself, in a positive, productive way, but they are seeing they are watching what happens when you dismantle the West, which is built on Christianity and the conclusion of that dismantling is utter chaos and destruction. It is pure evil. That's all that's left. We were the bulwark that stopped evil, the Christian worldview. It's simply it is true. And that's why Tom Holland or somebody who's able to objectively look at things, say, you don't have to believe in this from a spiritual realm, but just using it pragmatically,

18:47it's a, it's a way to stop fascism. It's a way to stop evil. It's a way to give rights to be all the ideas, social justice, human rights, women's rights. These are all counterfeit perspectives, stolen from Christianity. We package to feel good, but in a control from a secular humanist version, so they don't have to bow the knee. They don't, you know, I don't think Christians understand that progressiveism is a religion. And if they understand that, you'll know why they are so passionately, you know, crazy when they respond to you, disagreeing with their perspective, because you're attacking their, their, their, their faith. You're attacking their core. Exactly. And so it is. And the things they go ahead, the things they hold to with the religious forever, I entirely agree, Brad. And, but this bigger picture so, so, so Justin is looking at this, this kind of cultural level up way up high and how people who used to identify with the new

19:48atheists kind of perspective or have abandoned that, even Alex O'Connor. He's still an atheist. And yet he says, I've abandoned the kind of thoughtless, hostile, the new atheist, the new atheism movement. The new atheists were correct. And so he's distanced himself from that. Now he's still an atheist, but he's still thinking about it. And he realizes consciousness, for example, is a real problem for him as an atheist, because consciousness is not physical. Yeah. And if you're a physicalist, what are you going to do with consciousness? No, I mean, I think that's a reference, if we're referencing the transcendental argument, there is no answer for them. I find it fascinating that every time that you, you know, you use thoughts, which are immaterial thoughts, you are, you are proving the existence of God, because if you are accessing these thoughts as though they have a tangibility and a relatability to reality, which is a material perspective, if then how do you count for that? And no mind scientist has ever been able to figure out thoughts? No, I agree with that. But I think there's a missing step.

20:51I don't think the consciousness kind of is evidence for God directly. I think what it is is evidence for the immaterial world. And once you make that step, then you have to, you can ask yourself, well, what else is in that immaterial world that provides explanatory power for things like consciousness and morality and design and the origin of the universe, et cetera. But there's another layer to this, what's happening right now, it's very encouraging for me. I mean, I'm kind of, you know, getting to the end of my tour here, I'm generally speaking, you know, I've been 30, almost 33 years with standard reason, 52 years of Christian. And, you know, I'm going to be hanging up my cleats before it's too long and war coming up behind us. You know, this is my heart to disciple them. And this is kind of what we're doing here, passing the baton to the next generation. But, but something is going on. And I don't know how durable it's going to be, but we see these changes at the top end. And who's the, the dear woman who used to be a Muslim, then she became an atheist, then she became a Christian. I am her see something like that. And there you go. See, I can't pronounce her name either. So that's why I've just got to refer to

21:54that. I can say, Coco, I can say her see, I think, okay, her see, we'll stick it to that one right there. But there you go. There's another example of something going on on the higher levels. And these are just obvious examples that that Justin in his book is identifying. Now, and I recommend the book, whatever the title is, I highly recommend it, to give people encouragement is what's happening at one level. But on another level, on a more grassroots level, there are something's going on too. And I can't go into a church now. And this has been for the last, I'd say about the last year. In fact, the whole thing with Charlie Kirk and that terrible event on September 10th, that was a forced multiplier. That just gave more thrust to this. And that particular, let me just think the next day, it was September 11th, I spoke at a university in Atlanta, Kavanaugh state, I think. And when I had dinner with the team before that, the Christian leaders,

22:55they told me, they said, this campus has really opened up. People want to talk about God. They are open to talking about Jesus, which was very different than, say, five years ago. So even right, even before the forced multiplier effect, you already have this happening. And churches, and I go to churches, our youth groups are filling up, our peers are filling it up. Now, this happened at 9.11, if you remember, but it happened for a different reason. It happened because people were scared. And when people weren't scared anymore, three or four or five months later, they went, they quit going to church again. All right. That's not why people are in there now. That's not that they're scared. They're inspired. They're inspired. Something is going on. And I don't know if this is going to be like, did Jesus move in? Some people are using the term, you know, a revival. I'm pretty careful about that stuff. I don't know what God's going to do, but something is happening. And right now, there's more and more and increasing opportunity. And we don't know how long that window is going to be open. But this is a time that it's great

23:56that you're doing what you're doing, Brad, because to encourage Christians to be willing to step up and have the kind of conversations that can get people thinking about Jesus and about all of life. And so we're not just speaking here in a fairly narrow sense about the gospel Jesus died for your sins. I mean, that's core. That doesn't change. But part of what we're trying to communicate is that the Christian understanding of reality is the true story of reality. In fact, I wrote a book by that title, the story of reality, to help explain this to people. And that the story is a good story. And God is a good God. And this is something that's in question right now, especially by progressives. You know, God's not good because he won't let me do whatever I want sexually, for example. And even if he does exist, he's not good for that reason. And so if we give people a rich and a full-bodied understanding of Christianity, if we expand our understanding,

24:56this part of my project with the body of Christ, if we expand our understanding, it will put us in a better position not only to help people see that the view the Christian understanding of reality is the true story of reality, but it's a good story. And it's good for us. And that helps not just the evangelism, but our own spiritual development. Amen. Well, you know, one of the things I think I've discovered, I've been a Christian since I was a little kid. So I've kind of grown up in the church, different denominations, different things had prodigal journey. You know, I did the whole gamut, but I just say that because I have a lot of perspective as to how denominations work, how we can get in seasons in our walk as believers, have some some perspectives that maybe were focused on more than the next time. But clearly, one of the things that always just I was driven to was the intellectual approach to my faith that I love philosophy. I love apologetics. I love these things because I just find humans interested. I'm a comedian. So maybe that makes sense. I'm curious

26:00about the human condition. Why we say and do the things we do. And I find humor in that. And then I bring it back to the to the people so they can laugh about themselves. But you know, here's the thing Greg. I I'm interested in this thing. Well, most Christians aren't. They're not interested in philosophy. They're not interested. They might read their Bible and like their Bible. But they don't go deeper and say, well, listen, I know it says, you know, they'll show not kill. But that's not the most important term. The point is why. Yeah. Why don't we kill because the, you know, the second most powerful three letter word of all time is why? Because that's teleology. If there is no meaning, there's nothing to just to talk about. You know, I always I made a joke about it. I said, you know, these atheists, you know, we'll write a 500 page book on their perspective and reach the conclusion that life is meaningless. And they find meaning in that conclusion. It's like you can't even live your life practically without stealing from an antifetical worldview, which means why do

27:01you reconsider this? Because something is off. If you can't even function under the worldview that you claim is true. And one of the things I think that Christians miss, you know, we were never called to be Christians. We were called to be disciples. That was the word. He wanted Christians easy because Jesus does all the work. He pays the price. He lives a sinless life. He takes the stripes. He dies. He resurrects. He provides it for me. That was easy. Okay. I'll be one of you guys. But then he says, oh, that was to get in. But now it's discipleship time. And that is going to be the hardest. Right. Be most difficult. Challenge anything you will ever do. And by the way, count the cost because I'm you are now dead. You are now a slave. You are now crucified. And he wasn't using metaphors. This is what we don't understand in American Christianity. It's never cost us anything. Well, Christianity should cost you everything. This progressivism of making Jesus lovable to everybody. He promised that one of the proofs, you're a true believer, they'll hate you

28:03for saying I'm the God. So I wanted I'm curious about this idea of I guess inspiring Christ followers, church goers to move into discipleship means you got a study to show yourself approved under God or workman that need to not be ashamed. So basically Bible says if you're not learning, you should be ashamed of yourself. Well, nobody wants to be ashamed because it makes you feel bad. You're supposed to feel bad. That's how God uses the correction of the Holy Spirit to get back into space. You know, we eliminate all the aspects God has always used traditionally to get us back on course, shame, truth, rebuke, you know, and so I wanted to ask you about this, Greg, because I'm very concerned about the woke in the church and how it has deceived seminaries and in other places along that line. I don't know that believers in America take their faith as seriously as they need to. And what I mean by that is this, I came across a book years ago called the, I don't know, something about the absolute proof of creation.

29:07It was by guy named Jason Lyle who was an astrophysicist. I don't know if you've ever heard of him or not. But he's a he's a young earth creationist, but he's an astrophysicist. And I've had him on my show. I've also had Uros astrophysic leaves and billions of years, right? Right. Right. But I do don't heal. Okay. And so here's the here's the thing that I'm I realize is important. And why I think we lose ground oftentimes when we talk to a nonbeliever or someone who is not who is a progressive Christian or is trying to recreate Christianity in their image so they can feel comfortable with their behavior is this. The Bible claims to be the revelation of reality. It literally is the book for here's how we got here. Here's what went wrong and here's how here's what how it's going to end. It's there's no book like this. This is one of a kind. Fifteen by the way, if I could interrupt you almost said the subtitle to the story of reality book I wrote. It says how the world began, how it ends and everything important that happens in between. Yeah. So that was great. So

30:08well, and I and I have your book on my shelf with other projects. Oh, do you? Okay. No, no, I've been following it for years. But what I'm saying is this I and I said this to Dr. Craig, but I also said it to the atheist when I was trying the atheist experiment is I said, I'm going to treat you. I don't want you to be feel insensitive or aggressive, but I feel like I think Christians have let you guys off the hook because I think we we we see too much ground. Here's this truth. If Christianity is true, not my truth, not religious or philosophical perspective to to to evaluate, it's true. It's immutable. The end. Then I have to presume everything I speak to will come from the assumption, the Bible is that revelation by which I can guarantee is truth. And well, everything else will trump that. Now, they're going to call it circular reasoning because you're using the Bible to to define the Bible as for what it is the word of God. Well, some things have

31:09to be a starting point. There are times with like God, there is nobody before him. So yeah, I start there because somebody has to launch this investigation into reality. So I don't think that Christians take their Bible seriously because one of the things that this guy was teaching me in this was he presumed the Bible is true. Let's take it from there. Well, I think he got that from Bonson who got it from Bantill. This idea of presuppositionalism, which I got to tell you, and I want to get your thoughts on it. I think that's an accurate. I think we have to boldly say, I'm sorry, this is true. And so this is how we're going to have a foundation to return to if we get in conflict. There has to be a reality that can bring us back on board. So do you believe that that is a missing piece by allowing atheists, the laws of logic without holding them accountable? Wait a minute. Where do you get that? Oh, by them saying that life is meaningless, but but but

32:12Darwinism is driven by survival. Hang on hypocrisy. In coherent, there isn't a survival because nobody survives and survival is irrelevant because it's part of the meaningless novel that you say the whole world. You don't believe in meta narratives. So I'm making a very long prelude to this question, but I think part of the problems with Christians is they don't take their Bible in Christ seriously say, I'm not going to apologize for this. This is the truth. Now let me frame it in a way that you can see it comports the reality that you live by. Okay, you take it. So there's a lot involved in what you just said, Brad, and I knew Greg Bonson. He died many years ago. He's a very good apologist, but he has his book on shelf up there. And he was a student of Antill. They had a very particular way of approaching this whole project of defending the faith. Now, I'm not an advocate of pre-supositionalism. You're not okay. No, not per se. Now, I was deeply influenced by Francis Schaeffer, who is also taught by Antill. And Schaeffer, the way I'd characterize him, is he was an evidentialist who is

33:13sensitive to pre-supositions. And that's the way I see myself. And as Guinness and Nancy, Pierci, and others of us, you know, we're involved. We were all schooled by Schaeffer. And so, but differentiate what you just said between a brief pre-suposalist and an evidentialist that is in concordance with pre-sup, I'm not sure I understand that. No, you can be an evident, there is, I mean, this would take a much longer discussion, but there was a deep philosophical theological distinction between these two different approaches, evidentialism and pre-supositionalism. Okay. And something like RC Sproul was an evidentialist and a classicist in that regard. And so, there's kind of internal debate about how the best way to do this. Now, my opinion, I think it's a tempest in a teapot. What I try to do is just do the same things that the people in the New Testament did with regards to defending the truth. Jesus did it. The Apostle did it. They did, they just gave the reasons why people ought to believe. Okay. So, but what I don't want to do is get

34:17in that quagmire about the philosophical distinctions, because that won't be practical for people, right here, for your people right now. I think more to the heart of it, as you talked about, central ideas that are core to Christianity that get ripped off by people have no right to them, like the atheists, who argue in moral terms or talk about meaning. Now, you did talk about meaning, they write the books, you know, et cetera. Now, an atheist probably in defense would say, well, there is meaning, whatever meaning I give to my life, and you can give meaning to your life, but it's purely utilitarian. Right. It's purely in something that it's totally subjective. So, this was the core of my contribution to that, the diary of a CEO conversation, because Alex O'Connor knows this, you know, there is nothing but trying to find what works for you and makes you feel good now, because there's nothing beyond that. But there you can't distinguish between a mother Teresa and what, you know, turns her on morally, whatever it gives her,

35:22and Hitler, or anybody else, any dark figure, because there's no way to distinguish between them on that view. It's completely subjective. Yet, when you listen to them, and this is where I think maybe some of the presuppositionalism comes in, when you listen to them talk, you realize that they are assuming to be true, things that are not part of their world view. Right. Right. That's the smuggling in part. Take Alex O'Connor, for example. This guy is only 26 years old, and he's probably the most famous atheist in the world right now, certainly with the young crowd, you know, a Gen Z and below, and younger. But he is an emotivist when it comes to morality, you know, morality doesn't exist. This is so wildly counterintuitive. But he's holding my feet to the fire in this discussion on the issue of suffering in the world. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, wait a minute. If suffering has no moral content to it, and it's just unpleasant to the ones who are suffering, not unpleasant to the ones who are causing the suffering, that might be pleasant

36:24for them. Right. Okay. But if it if it has no moral content, how is that a problem for a Christian? On your view, if it's not it's not moral at all, and see what he's doing, and they I tried to held my his feet to the fire at this point. I said, Alex, you're smuggling in a moral notion, which you deny exists into suffering, because the suffering has an emotional impact on people. When he talks about what about the poor, this, that, the other thing, when in his view, there's nothing wrong with any suffering whatsoever, except that it's unpleasant. And that's too bad for people who experience it, but you can't say it's morally suspect since there are no morals. Now, here's what's going on. On the one hand, on one side of his mouth, he's speaking as an atheist. On the other side of his mouth, he's speaking like a theist, because he's got, he cannot, because he's a human being made in the image of God. And this is Francis Shaver, this observation. He's a human being made in the image of God, and he lives in the world that God made, and he can't

37:24get away from that. It's going to come out. No, in the tactics book, I call this the insight out tactic, that is, you know, as a believer that, that man, or woman, whoever you're talking with, is made the image of God, and they live in God's world, and they can't escape it. They can run from God, but they can't run from themselves. All right. And when they start talking in a way that reflects the truth about the world, because it's coming out outside the inside out, but does not comport with their worldview, that gives us an opportunity to say, hey, what's going on here? What's going on? See, you know the truth. And this is where Greg Bonson and Ventil, and those guys would say it, they already know the truth. They're just in rebellion. Okay. Now, I don't think that's a very artful way of approaching a witnessing circumstance, but nevertheless, like, oh, you really believe, but you're just revealing against God. I mean, I don't think that's compelling, but I do think there's a, there is a truth to that, because

38:26Romans one makes it pretty clear that everybody has a pretty clear sense, but they suppress the truth and unrighteousness. And so I think our project there, and at least this is the way I approach it, is to help people see how our view fits the world, which includes our deepest intuitions, and their view doesn't. Okay. My daughter, she's 21 now, but she was, when she was about eight years old, she said, she said, Papa, how do we know that God is true? How do we know that God is true? And I had to think about this, because this is what I talked to adults about. That's my kit. And how can I throw the ball so she could catch it? And finally, this thought came to mind, and I offered this, and I realized, this is my entire approach to this whole project. And so I repeat this line a lot. I said, honey, the reason that we believe God is true is because he's the best explanation for the way things are. The reason we believe God is true is he's the best explanation for the way things are. And so if I'm, if I'm in this conversation like with Alex O'Connor, or anybody else for that better, here's this whatever feature of the world, you explain

39:31that. Oh, it doesn't exist. Evil doesn't exist. Consciousness is an illusion. That's what Daniel Dennis said. One of the new atheists. That is the silliest thing I've ever heard. But they're stuck with that because it doesn't fit in their worldview. So they have to deny it. And, and one of the most ideal most observed part is determinism because then it's like, but then why are we talking? We're stuck. I'm stuck. Of course, I'm stuck thinking the way I think I can't be convinced because I've been programmed. You're stuck thinking the way you do. We're not having a conversation. We're just couple robots spreading data to each other, but it's irrelevant. It's not even data. It's just noise. Yeah. Right. It's all it is. Yeah. I'm that view. And guess who's guess who is a determinist? Sam Harris is a determinist. Right. That's what I mean. One of the so-called new atheists, but he's arguing for us point of view. And your point is, if determinism is true, all it is is dominoes falling. Yeah. They believe there is no God because they're determined by circumstances, factors, biology, whatever. And we believe there is a God because we're also determined to believe it. But there's no way we could ever have a discussion

40:34that's meaningful because we're determined every well, you know, lips is determined. One of the things that I said to the the the safest guy and just anybody, if I were I would love to talk to Alex O'Connor sometime because I'm, you know, he is smart and does take it seriously. So at least it's a it's a robust conversation as opposed to the internet troll guys that call it sky daddy and everything. I didn't pay attention because they don't understand philosophy. Blank spaghetti monster. Yeah. So once you want to be absurd, there's nothing to talk about because you don't even know basics of philosophy. So it's irrelevant. But but but to a gram oppie or Alex O'Connor. So that's an interesting conversation because at least they give you credit that this is a battle that needs to be engaged because it's it has some cultural cachet because it's going to cause how people are going to talk, how they're going to vote, how they're going to take care of their their country. It has a lot of power. So it has to be properly engaged so that we understand if we're doing something moral or not. But you know, the thing that I've I've never understood and I've

41:35asked this to Dr. Krueger. I asked it to the atheist and I want to get your thoughts on it. And maybe there is no answer and or maybe the answer is obvious. It's just spiritual blindness. But when they they always do what you just said, there is no meta narrative. So okay, there's no meaning. There's no meaning, no teleology in the universe in as a whole. But we make our own meaning. So that's enough. I'll just make my own meaning. And I say to them, yeah, but you're missing something that I don't understand. Here's what we know for a fact, the universe came into existence and it's going to disappear. That means everything we write, everything we think, everything we postulate, everything we induce, everything that we deduct, everything that we learn will one day vanish into oblivion because we're going to it's all going to collapse. Now it might be billion years from now, but it's irrelevant. It's all going by by which means there's nobody to contemplate it which means there's nothing to to talk about because it's all going to disappear. So it's nihilism, right? So here's what I say. So here's the things. That means there's a novel that's already been

42:36written. Here's the beginning, middle, and then all you're doing when you say I have my own meaning is you've added a chapter. I'm going to put a chapter into the novel about how I see things, what means something to me. And you can read it, maybe be inspired by it. And when I die, maybe my name will go on for me. It's not going to disappear eventually, which means once you burn the novel, all your little chapters go to. So you're wasting my time and you're deluding yourself into thinking you have some death because you literally are living the antithesis of what you say you believe. So either be truthful or not. See one thing about Christians is they say all your hypocrites because you're not living like a Christian. No, we're consistent. My book actually tells me when I'm doing it wrong. And then it says, and by the way, if you're truly, you're going to do it wrong. Yeah, that's what it means to be a Christian. When I screw up, that's what he died for. He loves means spider that you have no option. There is no atheist book to go to and find some some purpose. So why is it that they are incapable of having a conversation brought up to this idea that you know

43:43that this is all going into disappear, especially even if it's your own consciousness. Once you can no longer contemplate, you are here for all intents and purposes. You never existed. You didn't exist. Not you're going to leave it. I don't care if you leave a legacy. You're not going to burn. You're not here. So you never existed. And yet you continue to act as though you have something to add to the milieu. That means something inside of you saying there's value and tell you out here what you disagree with. So I think the Bible makes it clear. The fear of God is beginning of wisdom. These guys are very smart. They're not wise. Wisdom is spiritual. So tell me how can they have conversations? Be told this obvious logical philosophical reality. And that is after there's no meaning, what why are we doing this? And they can't see it and continue to make money off the atheism and get prestige off the atheism and status. So is it strictly a spiritual delusion?

44:46Is it a, do they really not see it and they're just in rebellion? I mean, excuse me for this long intro. No, no, it's all right. It's your show. And why they're so intense. Well, I agree with you. Yeah. Yeah. And you've said really good things here. So I'm not troubled by the little impeachment there. You'll offer it. And I'm sympathetic to it. But just some refinements. Let me offer a thought first that is directly to your question that is somewhat autobiographical. Well, it is autobiographical. So 1970, I was a student at Michigan State University. And I just remember the setting when I had this particular thought, I was not a Christian. I did become a Christian for three more years and then 73. And I was 20 years old and I was living the dream, you know, as it was characterized back then, it's different than it is now in some ways. But I was just doing my own thing. I'd left my religious upbringing in the mid 60s and then I'm just embracing the counterculture, free love, the whole la la la la la la live for today kind of deal.

45:50You know, it's one of the songs of the time. It feels good to do it. All of those phrases that were part of the 60s that really are now entrenched in the culture and people just take for granted. But I was also going to say word to the administrator. Okay. On the one hand, I was very explicit about being a moral relativist. There is no objective morality. If abortion kills a real human being, that's okay. If it's convenient and you want to do it, just do it. Okay. Now I look back at that and I say that was that's really bizarre. Even when people say that now, you know, I try to press the point a little bit more. You really believe that, you know, but you can't babysit for my kids, you know, kind of deal with that's your view. But the point is that's where I was at. But I was also was a relative. But I was also an anti-war demonstrator, the war. Why? Because this war is a moral. Okay. Now you immediately see the contradiction. And guess what? I saw it too.

46:54I was thinking, wait, that doesn't work. There's a contradiction. If relatives are, I'm sorry, if the morals are relative, I was set up relatives are moral. Sometimes that's okay. If morals are relative, then then the war can't be a moral. It might be a moral for some people. But that wasn't the way I was talking about you were that introspective on your own. Yes. But here's the key. The the payoff for me was, I don't care if there's a contradiction. I want what I want. And on the one hand, I wanted my sexual liberty. And on the other hand, I wanted my, I didn't want the war. And so I just, I just said, so what? And there's a lot of people right now, Brad, that are exactly the same position. They don't care if they're this one, they say, oh, maybe there's a contradiction. Now, what this gets to is the core of it. And this is why I do think that presuppositialists are much more bold about this observation proclamation. That which is known about God is evident to them.

48:01But they suppress the truth in unrighteousness. So they're, you're right back to Romans 1, and the scriptural characterization of man in rebellion to God, even when he deep down inside, knows better, and he will be held responsible for that. That's why Paul says in that passage, they're without excuse. They get it. They know enough. But something else is going on. And so this is right back to basic classical Christianity. There's nothing in a sense philosophically complicated about this. Human beings are fallen. They're in rebellion against God. And they don't want to bend the knee. And when people say, why is it the most intelligent people don't believe in God? On their view. And my response is, well, it's the same or believe in Jesus. Let's put it that way. For the same reason that most unintelligent people don't believe in Jesus. It has nothing to do with their intelligence. It has to do with a will. They don't want to bend the knee. Is what it amounts to. And that's the most difficult posture any human being could ever adopt. But

49:02it is what is required to become a Christian. Yeah. Bend the knee. That's the first step. That's why in culture, why the Marxists are so hateful of Christians, because we will not bow to the state. That will not take precedence over us. And so it's costly to them. You know, the thing that I find interesting about atheists, because they are smart oftentimes, not the internet guys, but the guy, you know, the O'Connor guys, is that they will say this. I would believe that there's not enough evidence. And I say, I'm confusing. I'm confused by your statement. There's lots of evidence. It's how you interpret it. Clearly, because if I'm listening to the same evidence and you are, and I say, I get it, it's compelling. I'm in. You say, I see it doesn't make sense. I'm out. All you're doing is deciding that the way I interpret this evidence isn't enough to convince me or doesn't have enough. Yes. There is no evidence that's going to be like the silver bullet. I mean, think of, think of Jesus, John chapter 11, raises Lazarus for the dead right. And a whole bunch of

50:02people believed. But the Jewish leaders are aware that Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead in public said, this is not good for us. We have to kill Jesus. And they also said, flip the page to chapter 12. And there is their plot to kill. Guess who? Lazarus. Yeah. They wanted to kill the living, breathing evidence that Jesus is, was who we claim to be. And so there you have the one event, a miraculous event. Wow. When people say, you know, atheists say, gee, if God would just do this miracle for me, I believe. Well, look at what happened here. Jesus did raise Lazarus after three days. It wasn't like to leave the kumi, little girl arrives. You know, she's just sleeping kind of thing. This guy's in the in the in the tomb, and he stinks, right? Three days. And while that's something, that's the real deal. And so what did people do? Some believe and some plot to kill Jesus. And as I had an earlier teacher when I first became a Christian, who made this observation,

51:04he said, the sun melts butter, but it hardens clay. It melts butter, but it hardens clay. And this is where I think this is a realistic understanding. Some people are just not going to listen to whatever you have to say. They're committed to their own views, period, whatever it is. And as one wagon put it, you know, if God did this miracle and appeared right in front of you, you wouldn't go to God. You'd go to a psychiatrist is what you do. You know, so there, there is this rebellion that needs to be dealt with. Now, different Christians have different opinions of how this works. But we all agree that the Holy Spirit has got to do something decisive to bring rebellious people to some point where a decision is possible. And I mean, I look at my own life. Well, I didn't come to Christ through apologetics. Now, my colleagues in you interviewed many of them. Bill Craig is one and, you know, I don't know if he had J. Warner Wallace on or most of others. Yeah, Jim's great. And, you know, at least trouble, blah, blah, blah. These guys became Christians, Frank Turk, because

52:08they confronted the evidence and this turned them. Okay, that wasn't the case for me. I just had this awareness as time went on as I engaged on the issue that this was really true. I couldn't even tell you why I was sure it was true. It was just, it was just what the Holy Spirit was doing in my life. And it wasn't until after I became a Christian that I, I, like you, was interested in the apologetics things. It just, I like this stuff, you know, plus people were asking me questions about it that I wasn't able to answer. So this way, I get Josh McDowell and I got Francis Schaefer. I got CS Lewis. And there weren't many around back then, you know, in the early 70s. Now we have lots and lots and lots of them. You can have them on your program. And that's wonderful. Which, by the way, is another evidence of God doing something remarkable in the world. There are lots and lots of very good apologists that are available for podcasts like this. Folks, this is where Coco get tactics go to his website, find what he's up to. We're going to

53:10bring it back on. I've just prayed and God said if he doesn't come back on, he's sending him locus. So I'm saying, okay, Lord, I'm just a messenger. But thank you coming out. I really, really work and I will continue to support it. Pray for you. And hopefully again, have you on soon so we can go into some more teaching and practical ways that my people that I want to be thrilled to do that. Folks, remember if they ever say you're being politically incorrect, always see, thank you for the compliment. It means you speak the truth. And you are not affected by Marxism. But in fact, are affected by the Holy Spirit. You're the last truth to rely on earth. If you're a Christ follower, and remember, I'm doing what I have to do. Put in the woke back to sleep. See you next Monday. I want to take just a second to thank the team at Life Audio for their partnership with us on the podcast. If you go to lifeaudio.com, you will find dozens of other faith-centered podcasts in their network. They've got shows about prayer, Bible study, parenting, and more.