Bitcoin Today Recast 9/10/26

0:00iquites x12

2:19We fired up early I guess. Yeah. We do requests now. It's T. It total requests live. R. L. P. T. C. edition. She's my turn. We're shutting out on this one. Max Max Aster. Reflisted this. Well, the dad for everybody knows. This is how she goes. She knows she's got him. And a woman eats. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Get some. I think it should be he's a brickhouse.

3:22We're talking about. What's going on, parents? You fired up early today. How's. There's house now. Yeah. She's the one. It's going on. You always can be my teacher. That's why I played it. No, I actually was playing it for Max. Shout out Max. Terrence fired up the space and then ran away to go to the toilet. That's the kind of energy we need. We need more. It is. It's like that every time. That was awesome. Yeah. Yeah. Shout out Max. Get's it. Max Aster. Yeah. What did Max send you that or he told you to make that? Max said, Hey, can you compose and play a song? I might have to use your drum kit and stuff that

4:24talks about what's going on with the the Fed, et cetera. And I said, sure, no problem. Do you play the drums? Are you mean, you mean elect elective drums? My kid does. Your kid. I do not. Yeah. He's good. Yeah. Play the tenors and the marching band, et cetera. So forth. Yeah. What's up, Tiffany? And you just play the skin flute. Little skin flute, little tambourine, little mouth harp. A harp as well. Nice. It's not bad. Yeah. Beautiful. I'm pretty slick. Hi, Lauren. Hey, Tiff. What's up? Hey, guys. Hey, hey, hey. Good morning. Yes. It is a good one. Hopefully for you to be here today and always. I can cure. Tiffany had a good, she hosted a good space. Last night I listened to after the fact I spun through the first part that felt like it was getting going, but they had a whole conversation on legacy. You know, what your plans are for Bitcoin, after you pass, how you secure it. It was really cool because it's a good question. I think a lot of

5:27us, you know, we're young enough. We don't think anything's going to happen soon or we haven't really planned it or we just don't want to have to talk about it. Some of you guys. Yeah. Yeah, but I think it was a good, it was a good conversation. I kind of pair that one with the one they had the week prior, which was end game. What is your end game with Bitcoin? Or is there an end game? Anyways, things we can put in the back burner if we want to get to today, but there are a bunch of talks. Those are synonymous terms. Are they not? They're almost synonymous. Well, on one hand, you can say an end game is, hey, look, I'm, I've been saving in Bitcoin because I really want to buy a house. I don't see how I'm going to buy a house saved with dollars, but that may not be legacy. Like two generations, three generations down. Do you want to set up some type of time locked across? Right. You know, how do you keep those keys safe, but where someone can get them? So I think it's a little delusional to think that five generations from now, there won't be at least one bad apple in the in the mix. Yeah, that's how I've got stories. I make them some

6:30pieces. I've got personal stories. I'm going to have a huge like running man game show that that everyone's going to have to compete in to get Bitcoin. Yeah, I like that. Yeah, you can't just be boring. You can't just have my name and my blood. Like a hunger game is entitled. Yeah, no, it's going to be like Shark Tank. I'm going to sit on my throne. There's going to be stairs up to a big mountain when I'm super old. And in this big building, I'm going to sit on a throne. You're going to ride the one wheel up there and they just look straight down on to the ground. And they come and they pitch to me. So he has a ramp. And I'm going to say no, no deal. And I pick around and they roll back down the stairs. Yeah. Yeah. This is what Bitcoin affords you. Yeah, we may be taking a weird. So sorry, shoot. I didn't know I was I was in my head. I forgot some medication. Yeah, go ahead. Take your meds. There's other people in the space that need to take their meds as well. Yeah, speaking of them, let's go to Tiffany. We did. Oh, speaking of medication, let's go to Natalie. Natalie. Hi, Lauren. I don't understand that intro, but you guys are starting early this morning.

7:34No, your clock is off. Terrence was there. Waking Bakes. Yeah, you didn't get the memo. No, yeah, Trump turned around. I really can see. Yeah, well, we know that in general, but we're talking about the spaces today. Yeah, I got it. I missed that. I missed that. No, you know what it is. It was just it was just strategic programming. I noticed that several Bitcoin spaces were all ending at the same time. And it's like, well, there's going to be a hole. And what are Bitcoiners going to do? They're going to have all this anxiety and fear. So the whole yeah, they're going to start getting antsy and jittery and like, you know what? Let's solve the people's problems. Let's help soothe their fears. I was having breakfast and didn't get the message. So yeah, yeah, Lauren doesn't get a lot of messages. That's true. And I go by smoke signals. Well, his brain is so far up in the clouds. It just rarely gets there. I'm tall. Yeah. Hey, Natalie, did you eat the steak that Grant Cardone told you to eat? I did. So yesterday I put it in the oven. I heated it up to like medium well. And I had

8:38some bites. And then I just was I felt a little uneasy about it. And then later in the day, my stomach felt uneasy. So I'm it's thrown out now. But you know, it might have just been me. Yeah, I'm alive. I survived, you know, and I did eat it, but I didn't. I just had some bites. And it's wasted and for just anybody other than me not really care about that steak. I care. I can't know why I've done this too many times. You bring home a nice fancy steak from a restaurant and in the morning, you realize you left it in the fricking car. You're like, damn it. And Terrence makes fun of me for being stupid. Yeah. It's it's a big dilemma. It's the people want to know. Well, yeah, proof of. Who's next? Who's next? I think Sean is next because he hasn't been. Oh, big Sean. Big Sean. Where have you been? Oh, man, I love these 821 AM spaces. I love right because we have until 830 to just talk utter nonsense. Heck yeah. Well, then let me add to that because leaving a steak in a car is the best thing you can do to it. Because then

9:41you realize they actually just hang meat for months on end to actually get it to age properly. I'm with you, Sean. Go on. Three weeks later, you eat it and then your car smells great. So, I mean, I don't know what Natalie's talking about. She's trying to eat steak a day after. But I don't. Women, right? Those Arizona people. Oh, wait. No, that's what eggs. Half thou something to say. Negative. Good morning. Good morning, sir. Nothing really particularly intelligent. But thanks for having the space. Never let's go to Tal then and never let it go to the state. Throw the towel in. Yeah, never let a good steak go to waste, guys. Come on now. So, it's okay. You ate it if it wasn't that great, whatever. You know, you'll live. Yeah, I'm living and I think it was good. Sorry. This is slot before 830. That's that's just. It's exactly what it is. God, them and you see Tal what you did. That's why I'm able to tag because it's slot. So, hey, I have a serious question with the whole big question. We're not ready

10:43for serious. Not yet. Not like 30, 70, 70, 70, 70. I know more serious questions. Really? Yeah, I really want to know. Netski, more and more from his, hey, add us or whatever you call it. It's your mom's basement. Thank you, stop. Hey, Edas. All right. Let's say hi to house and then bacon and then we'll get into it. What's going on? Are we still doing introductions or are we jumping into topics? How we could jump in and say 30 now. Okay. Okay. If we start it, I mean, it's a topic that has been discussed a good amount over the past two weeks. But I guess the next chapter of it occurred. Yes, it I believe after this show and that's the treasure attack. And you know, it's interesting about this one. It was a very sophisticated fishing attack where I guess the hackers somehow got access to treasure's actual like email, right? So treasure users got an email that came from treasure's actual address. It wasn't like an address with like a character off for like a different domain. It

11:45was treasure's actual address. So, they have hacked their actual server or how would that have happened? Yeah, I'm not super clear on the specifics, but I think like their email provider, I think what happens is sometimes large companies use like a provider to kind of hurt them like mass emails. And I think that third party got compromised such that, you know, the hackers were able to send out fishing emails from treasure's legitimate email. So yeah, I mean, I think I've talked to you about it before. But these these fishing attacks have been increasingly sophisticated. They seem to be ramping up in intensity. I'm not a conspiratorial person. I just think that look, the incentives align. We didn't land on the moon. Yeah, I just think the incentives align for people, you know, to want to steal Bitcoin, the department of justice just prosecuted a guy, pled guilty, used a Singaporean national, stole like $245 million using a very sophisticated fishing method that actually one of my close friends, one of the guys that I orange build, you know, he felt

12:47victim to that. I don't think it was the same guy, but like when I was reading the description of what this Singaporean guy did, it was exactly what my friend described. So I'm sure multiple people have kind of learned this method. So it's just that, you know, everybody needs to stay vigilant. I know that, you know, it's varying opinions as to self custody exchange hardware, while it's cold storage, right? But I personally have landed at the point where the attacks are becoming so sophisticated, so frequent that if I'm orange pulling somebody that doesn't really know, I'm just going to say, hey, if you want some skin in the game, get Ibit, get FBTC, and then like as you kind of are getting that exposure and experiencing, you know, the gains of, you know, a Bitcoin exposed product, then you could learn more about spot, then you could learn more about private keys and custodial options and single sig multi sig pass phrases, but definitely at the onset given the, you know, security environments surrounding spot Bitcoin right now, I'm definitely just saying, hey, Ibit or FBTC to start and then we could consider self custody

13:49way down the line. Yeah, 100% house. I think that's really good advice. No, 70%. Yeah, well, that 70% is strong because, you know, in a world of AI and where we're going, the reality is, you know, Bitcoiners talk about and worry about wrench attacks, but that's like a tiny, tiny, tiny percentage. It's just not worth it for attackers. Yeah, it's a probability thing. And so when you can socially engineer, and it's not just Bitcoin, everyone's going after your Google accounts, your Facebook accounts, your LinkedIn accounts, like hackers just want to hack in because when they can hack in, they can get to your financials, they can get to your social security, they can, you know, you have credit card fraud and identity theft and whatnot. And so proof of human, I think is going to become really important. They get to your goodies. Now, you know, the 30% that I don't agree with is the gains, I don't know if I'm a huge fan of the gains. I'm trying to train my mind to think in terms of value measured in Bitcoin. And when there's only 21 million, the gains that I want to see are in Bitcoin, I want more Bitcoin.

14:52Because I know that the US dollars are just going to get printed into oblivion. So at that part, I do want to, you know, say, I don't sign off totally on that. I think another thing that's important. Well, wait, I think we're saying two different things. I'm not, I'm not saying don't have actual Bitcoin. I'm saying that no, no, no, I know I'm disagreeing with houses all. Oh, I was talking about gains is all. Yeah, but I mean, like, as long as you hold your Bitcoin, go ahead. Well, yeah, I just think right now, right, with an Ibit share and FBTC share, yes, I'm not going to say that you have spot. You do not have spot. What you have is exposure to the dollar gain. So even in environment where yes, they're going to print dollars into infinity. But if you have a Ibit or an FBTC, just the way their prospects work, you know, you are going to get that dollar appreciation. I completely understand where you're coming from, Lauren, that you just want an increasing proportion or an increasing portion of the 21 million actual spot Bitcoin. But I guess what I'm saying is that I agree, right? I obviously have a substantial spot position. I'm just thinking now in terms of people who aren't in it yet. Obviously, this is a very

15:54sophisticated Bitcoin, you know, native space. But yeah, I mean, like, it depends on. Hey, Terrence, before you finished your thought, I just want to be perfectly clear with my stance, just because I talk like joke mostly about big Bitcoin. I'm not proponent for like, Ibit and everything else. But I do respect other people's opinions. I do understand what House is saying. I do understand everybody's on a different journey, etc. And I've heard some pretty solid arguments about older people, blah, blah, blah, blah. But I'm a Bitcoin and Cold Storage guy. That's, I've just stood by that for years. So I just want to make that perfectly clear before, like, I do a lot of joking around about, you know, there's enough room in the Bitcoin tent for big Bitcoin. But I don't think it's a brilliant idea long term to make that your strategy to hold, you know, your Bitcoin. Because in my opinion, it's not even your Bitcoin. Anyway, go ahead Terrence and finish your sentiment there. Right. My point is it doesn't even matter. Bitcoin or not these engineering

16:58scams are going to proliferate and they're only going to increase. And it could happen even with Ibit. It could happen with stocks. If people get access to your accounts, they can move money. And so I just think as a, I mean, I think most people here agree or know in this room, but it's worth sharing with your parents and your friends and your neighbors that in general, just don't respond to emails. Don't do that with your mom last night. Yeah. No, I know she said, she said after two minutes, was she grateful? Yeah. Well, she's like, it was the fastest two minutes ever, but yeah, two minutes, 37 seconds. But hey, we're not sweating hairs. Well, she knows like a, anyways, I'm not going to go there. But so, but I, but I like what you're saying when you say, I think this is your phrase, Lauren, you said there's enough room in the Bitcoin tent for big Bitcoin. Yeah, it was, uh, British had thrown something similar out, but he said there's enough room and big Bitcoin for everybody. But I, I mean, that's not really how I said it. Yeah. I think there's

18:00enough room in the Bitcoin tent, which we'll, we tweak the phrase a little bit way before big Bitcoin. But yeah, we're moving it for big Bitcoin. And when we were game theorying a decade ago, we saw this coming. It's just a matter of, you know, we're kind of freaked out sometimes when we see honey pods, when we see, you know, different, like, rational, oh, yeah, different kind of honey, different jurisdictional plays where it could throttle, you know, certain exchanges, et cetera. So, I mean, there's red flags all over the place, but I think this is another important reason to self-custody your Bitcoin. We didn't say hi to Kudosa. We'll say hi real quick. And then we'll let's go to dark. What's up, Kudo? Yeah, what's up, guys? Um, yeah, kind of more thinking about like macro economics this morning, ECB raised rates kind of would love to hear some takes on what we think's going to happen next week. And maybe what happens with Bitcoin. The other thing that's kind of on my mind is this Trump's, Trump's bribe from what I can see it saying that people will get $5,000 checks if the

19:02Republicans can hold the house. It's just, to me, it's just that it's just bread and circus kind of vibes. And, um, yeah, because I don't even know how it's a, it's a bribe because both this house and the Senate have to win. And then the Senate has to authorize it in the first place. But right, it's just wild to see. I mean, I get that like both parties, you know, try to incentivize their voters to, to elect them. But this is just so blatant and explicit. It's, it's wild. It's bread and circus kind of for turning vibes made. But yeah, good morning, Jess. Yeah, every solution or proposal for a solution just ends up with there being more dollars in the dollar network, which dilutes your dollar network. So you kind of want to escape that. My printer driver. Yeah, I think that's because when you turn it on, it makes a noise. It's one drink. Top of the day, do you, gentlemen? How you doing? Updark. Then my buddy Ed tweeted out this morning that he thinks America has become a torture

20:02chamber for intelligent people. That made me laugh. But I kind of feel that I agree with him. So we've got Trump offering to buy the election for $5,000 per person. That's 1.2 trillion. I don't know why he would stop there. I think 50,000 would be far more appropriate. Maybe 500,000. Because then when you think about it, dark, it doesn't matter, right? Because it's just, if it's a percentage for all of us, if they're just numbers, it's like saying, oh, well, let's play basketball and every, every basket is nine points of basket. Well, we're still playing the same game. Yeah, but if you gave everybody 500,000, and arguably they'd be able to afford a house, one, one, no, I think that house would immediately go up is my point. Oh, you think? I didn't consider that. Oh, is that how that works? He did. He's playing. Yeah. I'm kidding, obviously. Yeah, look at houses. House houses would become like meme coins. Okay. Listen up, Don Skies.

21:07Yeah, it's a crazy, crazy time, man. You know, the states of Zim Bobway here we come. I hope not. That would not be more like Zin. Bobway, my man. That's funny. Okay, listen up, Don Skies. Okay, listen up, Don Skies. I mean, we got a lot going on in the world right now on the macro side. 4.9 oil now, but with WTI above 101, the Houthis are kicking us over in Yemen and marching their way to the ball and out straight straight, taking control of islands in the street. That's not good. I don't think at the same time you've got interest rates around the globe, continuing to blow out. I'm not sure where that's going to leave big daddy percent.

22:07I'm sure he wasn't happy to hear about Trump's $5,000 dollar person planned. That didn't help with interest rates at all. Not that that will ever happen. Remember, that would take Congress to approve that. I just feel like it's just all bullshit. But we live in a land of bullshit at this point. I don't know what to say. Now, as far as the big Bitcoin thing, look, I tweeted out last night, Bitcoin's for everybody. Anybody who wants to combine Bitcoin. The question is, are you going to give your money or your Bitcoin to somebody else? And for me, the answer is no, but then again, I'm mature Bitcoin. Right? So yeah, look, everybody should start. You don't just buy $100,000 a Bitcoin and put it on a treasure. That's not how it's supposed to work. A million. Yeah, nobody's suggesting that. But I would say this, services like Unchained and Costet, I'm sure there's going to be more anchor watch. They're starting to make a lot more sense, right? Because now you have a trusted third party that you can call and say, hey, look, I got this email from Trezzor. Because those,

23:10we were talking about this year and a half ago on Bitcoin. When we first started Bitcoin today and even before, the proliferation of AI as a hacking tool is now like kidding critical mass, right? Like, I don't think there's anything that's outside the reach of the ability to hack it, like anything. So, I don't think the hacks are going to be worse than they are today. It's only going to get 10 times worse, 100 times worse. And we're going into like what feels like a digital anarchy. And I know I used that phrase over a year ago and I told you guys about DEF CON 2024 and what happened there. And like now this thing has gotten absolutely out of hand, right? Anybody with an obliterated AI can do absolute carnage of damage. And there's projects like Heretic out there. For those of you that like to play with AI and don't know what that is, go look it up. Heretic.

24:16And that's a GitHub project that allows you to remove guardrails from any AI system. So you can take an open source model and remove all the guardrails. And that's what people are doing. That's what we're seeing right now. So, we've gone into a new world, right? It's not just Bitcoin, right? Everything's going to become an IQ test. Everything. You know, Opsack is an IQ test at this point. And yeah, look for me, I've just been around long enough and seen so much in the Bitcoin space, right? Like we've seen it all from Blog5, Celcius, to FTX, Mt. Cox, you know, like Naka, now Meta Planet, like, you know, it's just one after the next, after the next. So for me, you know, there's just one play, right? And that's trying to figure out how to create Opsack and how do you do

25:16this? Like how do you protect your energy and your work through space and time? Right? And, you know, one million dollars. It took me a while to find that five minutes late. Sorry. Well, well, yeah, look, this is an easy, right? And again, you know, from my perspective, you know, figuring out this puzzle, right? And it starts with first getting some Bitcoin on an exchange and then transferring a small little bit, transacting with it, you know, just take 10 dollars and use it, you know, transfer it back and forth. You can use a hot wallet on your phone, you can use a treasurer, you can use whatever, but ultimately, I think you have to get to a multi-sig multi-device setup. I think right now most of us would probably agree, that's probably the smartest setup out there. And then, you know, you, when you do that, if you use a multi-sig provider to start with, you have a third party to call if you ever have a question.

26:21Right? So like you never do anything immediately. There's never a reason to give anybody access to your computer or answer any email or anything else until you speak to somebody who knows better. And that's how you learn, right? So like this is an IQ test. It's not easy. But nothing good in this world is easy, right? Like if you just want easy, then you take the risks that come along with easy. And there are risks. There's risks in everything we do. Right? So it's, you know, this concept that there's, there's just an easy way to do it and that takes away all the risks. That's just not true. I'll land the plan there. Hey, before we go to Chad, I think one of the risks or red flags of any third party would be the sovereignty aspect where if Uncle Sam tapped them on the shoulder, they couldn't get your Bitcoin, but they would know that you had it. That's that's one of the red flags that I see there. Yeah, but in the modern day, they know you have it from the second you buy it in exchange.

27:22Yeah, that's exactly true. That's why you need to be careful. If you want KYC free Bitcoin, there are ways to obtain it. So if you're, I personally think it would be wise to keep a, you know, maybe a stack in both worlds and keep it separated, keep your KYC free Bitcoin in a completely separate place, then you do anything that you buy through an exchange, et cetera. Anyway, charter or Terrence, did you want to weigh in before we hit Chad? Yeah, real quick, just before we hit Chad, what dark said about multi signature? Go ahead and speak before we go to Chad Terrence. Yeah, well, what dark talk about multi signature and, you know, we, a lot of people learned this for the first time with cold card, but with what happened two days ago with Trezzer is another thing. The minute I heard about the cold card news and then yesterday or the other day with about Trezzer, I immediately, my quick reaction was, oh shit. And there was a big, a huge Bitcoin account that posted the Trezzer thing saying, guys, this is serious. The same thing that's happening to cold cards happened in Trezzer. And I freaked out for two seconds and then I remembered,

28:26it's like, well, I don't need to worry because of this, this and that, you know, which mostly involves multi signature and time locking. But then I went and looked it up and I was like, well, wait a minute. No, no, no. And I realized that that it was fake and that we're going to continue to get these things. But that is why multi signature solves this. And also like Dark was saying, you know, with Kasa and Unchained and there's so many now and Nunchuck and Thaya and Lyanna and, you know, now Bitgo just announced that they are, by the way, it's free at Bitgo. You can multi for absolutely free. They'll hold an enterprise key and you have the other two keys. So it's pretty cool. What are you doing, Lauren? I'm just saying, what's up? Okay. What's up, Terrence? Chad. What's up, Tiffany? Hey, good morning from BlockKite, 966-373. Morning. A national debt of 40 trillion plus and 10 year of 4.92. Regarding risk management, it is crucial. And I think what Dark is talking about is we're going to coin, let's coin the term TQ. We've got IQ,

29:28which everybody knows, EQ, which everybody knows, but really the TQ and your technical quotient. And, it's huge. But back to what House was saying, there is a huge risk. I don't think we talking about and I want to highlight regarding the ETFs. And that is, if you're in the ETFs, you do not get, you don't participate in a fork. You get forced. And through time, the forks are going to be continue to be one of our huge lines of defense with this. So, yeah, although starting with the ETFs makes a ton of sense for many people, it's really dangerous to start and end there. You've got to simultaneously work on your TQ because the only, you know, look, fidelity one day could get hacked or shrub or whatever. And there's so many risks there that we don't talk about. Plus, you know, just the Blake coins are good example. If you were holding it in the ETFs, you didn't, if you wanted that kind of exposure, you don't get it. So I just can't encourage everybody on this call

30:30and beyond to work on your TQ and start with, you know, fine start with IBIT for, you know, it's $100 and that's too small. $1000, put $100 into multi-sig, like learn it, you have to. It's your only defense to protect yourself. Thanks, guys. I would have to thank you. You don't want to forget about the TQ and your security posture. It's the psycho quotient because you can't imagine what these people are going to be doing. Yeah, totally. There was the attack in Mexico where somebody was, it sounded like maybe maybe some torture involved because they were taking out family members too, but they ended up killing the pregnant wife and the man. And in those kind of circumstances, I think it's important to have other kind of security like you're saying. In my case, guns. So yeah, I think it's super

31:38important because there's a lot of ding-dongs out there. We're talking about that in the last space and it is, it's like everybody's going to have their own solution and different for everybody, but cold storage, man. It's where it's all that anyway. Call it cold wherever it's still in the chain. And yeah, at least these exchanges can get took too. How do we know where they're at with their security? Does anybody know? I mean, the issue, right? I don't know. Interject here is yes, do we know for sure like what their security is like? No, but thing is when you start getting to the level of a black rock or a fidelity or a Schwab, these are places that are managing trillions of dollars of wealth, right? And that are making billions of dollars of revenue and have whole dedicated teams of very

32:42smart people who they're paying to come up with security solutions to make sure that everybody's wealth is where they say it's going to be, right? Lawyers, cybersecurity people, like teams, in teams, in teams, right? Whereas with the Bitcoin solutions, right? Both the hardware wall solutions, the multi-sick solutions just by nature of the relative nasancy of this industry, right? And the amount of staff that these people have and the amount of revenue, they are not able to allocate resources to security the way a black rock fidelity or Schwab can, which is why in the Bitcoin self-custody, maximalist kind of space, there's so much emphasis on the individual, because they know that no provider has those resources. So it's very much you as an individual need to figure out every sort of nuance, every sort of attack vector, right? And look, again, if you feel comfortable with that, all by all means, right? If you feel that you could set it up

33:42by yourself in partnership with like Bitcoin-specific vendors to have it such that you are certain that you will be able to, you know, access your Bitcoin and derive value from your Bitcoin decades from now, by all means. But that's kind of the difference is just the scale of these operations, right? Personnel revenue assets under management, the amount of resources that they could threat, all these security questions. And what I've been talking about is kind of the difference between, you know, kind of hypothetical versus realized risk, right? And the fact of the matter is, when we see the cold card hack, when we see people that might have gotten attacked in treasure, when we see wrench attacks, right? Those are all actual realized risks, right? These are things that we have seen actually transpire. When you talk about, you know, vulnerabilities to the traditional products, right? Like your shares being frozen or, you know, the underlying Bitcoin that underlies these products like I've been in FBCC getting compromised. Those are hypothetical risks, right? Which is

34:43not that they won't be realized or actualized in time. But nobody really has examples of somebody's title to shares that they own getting lost, right? Or them losing access to shares, right? Because that's just not how it works because the system is so well developed and mature that there's never really a question. The only time I've seen was one person in here, like a couple of weeks ago said that OFAC had, you know, basically frozen his shares or got rid of his shares because they were Russian, right? I guess he was trading in Russian equities. And when the Ukraine war broke out, I guess OFAC, which is the Office of Foreign Assets control, right? They did something where he no longer had access to these Russian equities, right? He left before I could ask him if he was compensated in dollars, right, for the loss of those shares. But that's just like something to think about. Again, we're all kind of, I think, on the same page that everything has risk trade-offs. But nobody really has an answer to like, oh, has somebody like lost shares? Has somebody like woke up and like not

35:44had access to, you know, especially an American financial product? You know, if you're curious, this comes up a lot about BlackRock or Coinbase or whoever, you know, securing your Bitcoin. Obviously, they're just giving you an IOU for it. They are holding the Bitcoin. And so for some people, that doesn't make sense. But they also don't secure Bitcoin the way we think. They don't do, they don't have 12 or 24 words. They don't have hardware wallets. They all use something called MPC, multi-party custody. And it's almost similar to like when you can shard a key where they will have one key, but it'll be separated in different groups on claves and different locations. And no two sets of engineer groups necessarily even know the other or know when or where they're signing. And they also have a white listing. So these multi-party custody systems are all

36:49encoded storage. And then that Bitcoin can only be sent to specific hot wallets that the same exchange controls because they'll keep a small percentage in a hot wallet so that people can you know, buy and move off of an exchange. So it's still not as ideal as self-custody if you understand the full utility of Bitcoin and want that optionality. But it is very, very unlikely that places like BlackRock would lose the Bitcoin on their own. It doesn't mean they're going to give it back to you or they're not going to do something with the government down the line. I have no idea, but they do use a very robust system. Terrence, while you were on your soapbox, Fred came in and then he went to make his breakfast. He did that. Yeah, he did that twice. Shoot. Anyway, I don't know whose hand was next. I think I saw Sean and then Dr. Detroit. Dr. Detroit's hand is hard to see because it's dark. That's right below. I'm in my screen. Okay. Hey, I was not wanting to change the conversation,

37:50but dark. Okay, then let's go to Dr. Detroit. Yeah, let's have Dr. Detroit. You lost me. Hold on. Okay, let's go back to Sean while you have your thoughts. The, wow, DEF CON 2024. Sorry. In like 15 seconds because I don't know that Terrence is going to like me after this. What went on there? I haven't been there in like over a decade or so, but I think dark just bolted. DEF CON, I think it was a conference for hard of hearing people. I didn't go, but I'm pretty sure it's been quite a few years since I've been there. Well, hey, Terrence, I hope you and I can still be friends to speaking of Fred. I think he pinned me up as counterprogramming against you and your time-locking slot at Alpha. So hopefully we're still friends after that. Oh, yeah. You know, I'm not getting my emails from Alpha. I contacted Ben and I guess they use some automated form emailing things. So I don't know. I haven't gotten anything, but

38:50if we can be friends after the BIP 110 Fiasco, we can be friends through anything, my friend. We can, everyone can be friends after the 110 Fiasco. Absolutely. I think we mostly agree on our names. How many of you have heard some names out? It's the hard fork. It's the hard fork. Hard fork that's tough. Matt Cratter. Okay. No, but that's, but that's past the 110. They're now onto the hard fork. So everyone's under the tent now. That's where the issue is. Yeah, the 10, big enough for all of us, Lauren. Maybe you need to face in the 10. There's enough room. You need to face in the 10. Put on your jester suit and get out of there. Put on your jester suit. Your clown knows. Let's get out of it. All right. Let's go to Fred because he is here now for the third time. Hey, we got Bruce here too. What's up, Fred? Fred Rick, we don't hear you. He's got a, you may be his mouth is full of breakfast sandwich. There he is. Oh, I don't hear anything. No, hey there. Fred, your mic is now muted. Okay. He's dropping and coming back. All right. Let's say hello to

39:50Bruce while we're waiting. Hey, yeah. How's it going? All right, Bruce. Hey, Bruce. What's now? Oh, we're just resisting the system one day to time. Yeah. I like resisting the system. Are you going to alpha, Bruce? Have you been to that? No, what's alpha? It's this sort of high end. What's that Fred? See if we can hear and he can tell us about it. Fred or either? Yeah, I'm here. Bruce, it is a, it's sort of modeled at the round table, but only for the corners. That's it. So it's in Santa Monica and it's a, you know, a couple hundred people in Santa Monica, all big corners. Yeah, you're the inspiration, Bruce. Satoshi round table style, four tracks running all at the same time. There may be a Blake Koiner coming or two. Nice. Yeah. Anyways, yeah, you should think about it. Yeah, but California, you know,

40:54I'd have to go to California. Yeah, but it's the good part of California. We're smack on the beach in a five-star hotel, you know, very high-end stakes. I missed all California. I almost moved to California 20 years ago. I lived there when I was in the Navy and I looked. Where, where, where are you? I was in San Diego or Coronado specifically, which is awesome. And I used to hang out there, Coronado and Hoya and I love it. Oh, yeah. Beautiful. I've been LA a million times. I, LA was like a second home, but I haven't been much. And then, you know, obviously San Francisco, been there a lot, but I haven't been much in recent years. You know, I'm enjoying New Hampshire a lot. So I, yeah, but yeah, it sounds awesome. Yeah. Well, it's easy to void the blue hair. So it's not as bad as everyone says. Yeah, I think it might have peaked. I think the wokeness, the wokeness is just so dumb and broken that I think it might have peaked like about a year ago. It's

42:00pretty cringey to be woke even in California now. Like even the, even the kids kind of laugh and they they call everyone snowflakes now. And it's really, it's really nice to see them. Yeah, the young kids are really shifting. I have a friend who's, I think he might be from California, but he lived in California for decades. Professional musician, gay is a $2 bill lifelong Democrat and he made this hilarious post a while ago. He's like, I am so sick off this woke gay stuff. And this guy is, gay is can be. And he's like, I just don't want to hear it all the time. Like, can we just do art and like do this stuff we want to do? And it was really kind of funny. So I think that sentiment, you know, and you know, I noticed like even among like ultra lefties, there's like a subsection of the ultra lefties like, you know, because you have a lot of like regular lefties. And then you have, you know, like strong lefties, but within that, it's a subsection and they get tired of it too, because they have like, you know, this, this minority within their own groups who start policing

43:03everybody's speech and demanding less than that. And you know, these just, just, you know, the whole ideology is bad. So I think it's eaten itself from within. And I noticed like, I'm in a lot of communities that are heavily woke. Like I love, uh, gaming and nerd stuff and art and um, a lot of these communities, I had like have a have an all to count or hide my identity and, you know, I've been to meetings and stuff like, oh gosh, I hope these people don't like Google me and figure who I am. They're going to hate me because I just want to hang out and talk about Dungeons and Dragons or something. But that's changed now. A lot of that is like, you know, there's been backlash in a lot of these communities. So I think, I think wokeness hit its, hit its peak like a year ago. I think that's a healthy thing. Terence is gay. Time is healing. He's super happy. Well, you know, Bruce, it woke us Mike. Come back with the Democratic blue wave. You never know. Yeah, you think you think, I think you said before I'd agree with you, we're probably going to have a blue wave. Trump, um, is, you know, the only way he won was this broad coalition. You know,

44:06you can't win just with Maga. And Maga is ever dwindling. So even regular Republicans are not enough to win an election. You need to swing independence. But Bruce, how are we going to get our $5,000? One million dollars. Closer. Um, I can't hear Bruce anymore. Can you? Oh, I cut my mic went off somehow. Yeah, no, the $5,000 thing is crazy. He's got a, he's got a, he's not, he's lost the broad coalition. So Republicans alone are not enough to win and Republicans in there in their congressional elections are going to have a hard time this term, I think. I think the $5,000 is the same as the, is the, is the 1200 stimulus check during COVID. Just had to adjust

45:10for inflation, right? It's silly. And anyone who's, who's conservative, um, I should call that out, you know, I mean, like anybody with half a brain, I mean, if you're like a big Genzi and you think that kind of thing is good, great, you know, go cheer for it. Those people usually ate Trump anyway. But if you're like, um, you know, any kind of free market person for, you know, physical conservative, Rothbardian, Milton Friedman, I, you know, whatever, like you can't, like, come on. You're just like, oh, $5,000. You know, that's just so unworkable and so silly and ridiculous. So stupid, man. I want at least 150K for my vote. It's like, well, distribution is all it is. It's like Trump coin level, um, grifty. Yeah, I want my, I want my 60 grand donation that I gave Trump back for my vote. Or at least, yeah, yeah, I think Thomas Massey said, you got to give me 10,000. But it's like, yeah, that, you know, they did that in Kuwait, you know, and this is the funny thing with democracy. Democracy is two wolves in a sheep voting on what's for dinner. You know,

46:14democracy is 49 people vote and just deal the wealth from one person. Democracy is a stupid system. And we went in there ham-handedly, um, after we got meddled and got all involved in this stupid first Gulf War, and then we went in and we're like, okay, Kuwait, we saved the day. Now let's teach you democracy. And we put in this, this government. And that's exactly what happened. It was, it was kind of pure democracy without the protections that you're supposed to have, like we're supposed to have with our Bill of Rights and limiting of government power. And they went in and basically the majority just voted to give themselves free money. And the Kuwait government for quite a while has had some some major challenges, you know, it's been kind of, kind of goofy because of that. So, you know, this never, never works. I mean, it's just, it's just so low. Like, who's Trump talking to? The dumbest of the dumb. I think the only ones who are like really his fans are just not, I mean, it's just like die hard, always Trumpers, which are not the, you know, necessarily brightest folks in

47:17the world. Shadow G money. I just want to say I enjoyed your video with Patrick Bern. And I wanted to say that I met Patrick Bern when he was about 30 years old back in the day because I used to work very closely with Patrick's older brother Mark Bern. I don't know if you've ever heard the name and you know, Patrick's dad and stuff. But yeah, I enjoyed that video. Wow, small world. Very, he was great. He came out. He came by the farm and we hung out for about three and a half hours and talked and then we did that short video. We'd known each other for, I don't know, 12 years or something like that. And, you know, we kind of, we were sort of the creators of this whole tokenized securities concept. I don't know really anybody earlier than Patrick and I, we worked together on this and we both, you know, we were independently doing it for six months or so and then we caught up together and sort of joined forces and I don't, I mean, it's a

48:22really, we were just struck by how big of a deal it is now. I mean, it's everything we predicted really 11 years ago is like finally taking place now. But it's kind of, this is kind of the exactly where we are now with the tokenization, right? And especially, yeah, even things like Robinhood or whatever it says, it's really interesting. Yeah, it's, it's, Bruce, would you mind telling people what's special about the platform that you guys issued yours on because your, what you guys did it was different than the others. There wasn't so much any special platform. I mean, we worked with, I mean, I dove into everything and I, you know, I tried, I, my prefer, my preference is Bitcoin because I love Bitcoin. So we first did counter party and we issued the overstock talk, overstock token for a public, it wasn't the stock. It was a dead instrument of overstock. But so it's an issuance biopublicly traded company and we represented that in

49:23counter party, which is many know is Bitcoin protocols, bait, it's bait uses the Bitcoin chain. My preference and my thought all along, well, in the earliest days, we didn't really have a lot of the other stuff. You know, there was another lot of other chains and, and even as there was, as Ethereum came along and so on, my thought was, hey, strong as chain, that's going to be the best idea. So originally I focused on Bitcoin and we did counter party and then there was RSK, which is also based on Bitcoin and that did merge mining. There was a couple other Bitcoin based things. And then, you know, as a hedge, I did a decent amount on Ethereum and Ethereum developed a token protocol. And then, and then I came up with the idea. I said, well, neither of these are perfect. Let's take the best of Bitcoin. Bitcoin can't adapt to be tokens and it shouldn't. You don't want to go and make your money also tokens. Like you don't want to maximize tokens for your code. So I said,

50:24all right, well, let's make a new special purpose chain that's just a fork of Bitcoin only we can tinker with it to make it optimize for tokens. So Patrick loved that idea. So that's how Ravencoin came about. And Patrick funded a lot of that and got a developer named Tron Black on a couple other people to sort of make the code for that. And that was really cool and way ahead of its time. And it reached like a billion market cap at one point, but had, you know, crashed down a lot since then, and especially like just recently, it's been shaky, which is too bad because I think it was too, too, you know, it was ahead of its time. And then things like Salana came along and made things more program, program, programmable, which is interesting. One thing that's really interesting about equities being tokenized is that it's programmable. So you can do things like lock up for one thing, you can, you can see what everybody else, you can do that. You don't need that to be that smart contractee. But you can also like, you can do clever things like you can, you can, you can, you can,

51:28you can lock up tokens provably. Like you can say, okay, the CEO says he's not going to sell, maybe he's going to sell anyway. But with a token, you can like put it in there and be like, okay, here's a public contract. Everybody can look at an audit that shows that his shares are locked up for five years or whatever. So there's interesting things that you can do. And there's a lot of stuff with, you know, dividends and relating to shareholders and communications and voting and stuff where, you know, as I hate to say it, like more of a robust smart, I was always a critic of Salana, just for various reasons. But you know, there is something to be said for these highly programmable kind of things. I wish it could all just happen on Bitcoin. But hey, Bruce, to further the thing I counter pretty, I think it would, you know, it's what's unique about that one is the proof of a burn. Do you want to tell people what that proof of burn like was like? Are you involved in this? Yeah, yeah. No, you, you, uh, to get counter party tokens instead of having, um, you know, a pre-mine or a fund raise, you just burned Bitcoin. And you can see the address. You just Google

52:33counter party burn address and you see the address. It's like one burn, blah, blah, blah. And so it's a, it's a, it's a fake address, a burn address. And, and you, you know, there's like 2000 coins, 2000 Bitcoin plus that were burned to create. So we had to burn some Bitcoin to create that counter party. And so yeah, there, so you can see that address where there's some dead, dead Bitcoin. That's the one counter, but I think what's interesting about that is no other token has had that thermodynamic quality being proof of burn, right? Because energy cannot be, created or destroyed. So, you know, a burn, a proof of burn is like transmitted energy. And in a sense, yeah, transmitted. Yeah, I mean, and, and, and you welcome to all the Bitcoin holders because burning those 2000 Bitcoin makes you all your Bitcoin more scarce. So, um, and by the way, um, counter party does have liquidity fools now. So what's cool about this is, you know, you remove the market makers

53:36from having a job like, you don't need market makers anymore. You can run, you know, markets 24 hours a day. And, uh, yeah. So I mean, I talk about this a lot, you know, Terrence makes fun of me. Dude, it's coming. It was 11 years ago. Can you believe this? We, how far ahead of the market were we would do that? We took this. Oh, you guys, you guys were, what, and also this, as soon as you guys did this, I think Wall Street knew what a big weapon this was against them. And Peter Strux, why started going after Patrick Burnett soon as you guys did. Oh, you're taking into the, is that a coincidence? Is that a coincidence? Bruce, you're taking in, you're taking into the meat. Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, I mean, um, yeah, yeah, that's, that's a whole. Yeah, so yeah, well, after, after you guys started developing this stuff. And by the way, Patrick Burnett got everything SEC approved. Um, it was all approved. You know, Peter Strux, why if it was the head legal counsel at the SEC came after it.

54:39For a lot of people know that, how did you know that? Did you listen to Patrick? Well, I had him, I had him on my podcast that I went through the whole thing, but, um, yeah, how many rare pet bays do you guys have? Do you have, what if you rare pet bays? I don't disclose my rare pet bays hold. Where have we developed this? Yeah, I was going to ship this. Lord, what I'd like to know though, jump in here and shut this shit down. Speaking of tokens, do we know if any of the liquid has been returned? I know they were last negotiating, but I don't know if there's been an update of those 600 Bitcoin. Does anyone know? There is an update. I was just going to throw it on the nest. Weird that you brought that up. What is it? Yeah, I haven't read it through yet. I just noticed it. Okay. Because yeah, they've been negotiating pretty hardcore to the point where I don't think we're calling them white hats anymore. Um, they, it clearly feels like extortion. Yeah. Hey Terrence, if you, uh, have you talked it all about, are you aware of the problem and root stock right now? No, what's going on?

55:40So they have a little bit of an issue similar to block stream in a way that you remember with block stream, you have like a, there's a normally a 24 or 48 hour, like some absurd number of blocks, right? Yeah. The federation has to sit there and yeah, it takes about right. It usually took me about two days because I used liquid a lot. So it's like, it's like a couple hundred blocks, right? Now root stock did that, but every root stock peg out is a sequential hundred blocks. And so what's happening is there's now a multi thousand block backlog for pegging stock. Yep. Interesting. And these guys originally raised 15,000. Wow. You know, I don't know if you guys have that.

56:42Sorry, Detroit. I think your mic's off. Go ahead. I'm bringing it back to the, um, and now I forgot again. Um, yeah, BlackRock. When you, that's, you're going to go fiat in, get your ETF, and when you come out, you're not taking their, the Bitcoin, you're taking fiat out, correct? I mean, they're not going to let their Bitcoin leave. Are they? I mean, they're going to keep that. They will appear on now. Do a fiat redemption. According to British, I don't know. My sources are not. Well, British also said that he would shave his head if the bond hit 5% and, uh, isn't it already, Shane? I'm just kidding. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Well, yeah, Dr. Detroit, I mean, obviously with all these ETFs, you just, you have a dollar investment. You put your dollars in, you get your dollars out. What we're on the cusp of is that some of these at a higher level, um, most of them minimums of two million, but British said BlackRock has a minimum of a million. You can do in kind redemption. So this is a newer thing and you can't do it

57:43with them directly. You have to find an authorized participant who's willing to take you in with a group of people. So if you have, let's say, a million dollars worth of Bitcoin, they'll combine you with someone else. You can either take your spot Bitcoin into that ETF and or apparently back out. And I also just saw, um, uh, what's his name? Matt Hogan of Bitwise, um, talking about that with, with their fun. He says that, um, on average, there's been, um, one Bitcoin a day. I think he said, one Bitcoin a day, um, doing this, going in or out. So I think that's really positive for people that do use ETFs as a stepping stone or to get comfortable and they learn more about Bitcoin to get out. Um, and I suppose there are some use cases to, you know, go in if someone's aging out or they need to use that, you know, as some kind of portfolio loan and they don't want to sell their Bitcoin. Um, so I think it's a good thing. I remember when those first came out and we saw that only the big boys can use them because I think it was like 50 million plus. I thought, wow, this would be really cool. Um, yes, actual coins on the, yeah, but you technically don't have, they don't, they don't,

58:49they don't give you your statements or anything in Bitcoin terms. You just, you just have a dollar investment, just like a stock. Um, and you obviously don't own it. You, you can't do anything. There's no taxation for like moving these things in, right? Yeah. Well, that's the big thing. Right. British doesn't have to worry about that because he's over there and Dubai, but we do here. And so I'm like, you guys might remember a lot of us who've been around. We had some Bitcoin in GBTC because at the time we were like, wow, this is really cool. I have some retirement funds there. And I took a massive haircut to get the hell out of that as soon as I could and get back into spot Bitcoin, but you know, here in California, I mean, I was paying 40% taxes on that, which really sucked. You know, but now I can't, I still have my GBTC. I just, I can't sell it. Yeah. No good for you. I mean, oh, what, why can't you sell it? Oh, well, I could, but I have to take a tax sell. Right. Yeah. You have the problem that I had. So that was the problem. I got a huge haircut, um, which made me shorter. What did that better to wait? Well, yes, but you know, at the time, I don't know, those of us

59:58who are here, there was some scary stuff going on with GBTC and grayscale at the time. And there was like just fear of just that whole vehicle going to zero. And I just wanted to get the hell out of it. And I felt way, way better. Of course, hindsight's always 2020. And you know, now looking back, it's like, oh, the ETF's got approved. And everything came right back up. But I just wanted to get the hell out of there. That's good. Yeah. Is this 600 points that we're talking about on liquid? Is that like to change from the 4,000 that the guy returned? Exactly. They, they still have like 598 Bitcoin. Unless Tiffany gives us an update. I think they were negotiating that they got really aggressive with their last message to blockware to liquid saying, hey, you guys did this wrong. You did that wrong. And until you do this and do this, you know, this is our fee. And I think they negotiated down to 10% in which case they would turn more. But it clearly seems like

1:00:58extortion now. Yes, it's going to be going to a lot of big one to just do some transactions. Exactly. Yeah. It's almost as much as Lawrence half of his stack. So it's substantial. Yeah. That's right. That's like one person. That's ridiculous. It's crazy. I mean, it's definitely fraud. I mean, you can't just decide to keep some sort of fee. Yeah. And they're going to be just as much trouble as they would if they just stole that out. Right. You know, if they had only stolen whatever, 500 Bitcoin, and that was it, that's still a major, major crime that could have them looking over the shoulders for the rest of their life. It's just weird. They return. Please contact who was it? Was it Zach over at the Bitcoin policy institute? Yeah, Zach, of trying to get away with this kind of crap. Yeah, he has apparently negotiated this kind of stuff before. But it's weird. It's almost like you go into a store and you shoplift, but then you go up to the register to buy

1:02:01a bunch of stuff so that you appear to be a good actor. But then, you know, you walk out with something because it's kind of what they did because why would they have returned? I mean, if they're going to be prosecuted or people are going to be after them, why would they even return the 3,400 Bitcoin in the first place? Why wouldn't they have just kept all of it? So it seems like poor amateurish stuff. I mean, yes, they're best at it. Would have been the second they took it to say, Hey, we're a white hat. Really hoping you can give us a fee. Would that be cool? Exactly. You have a window of opportunity of maybe an hour or two to hopefully get $10 million as part of an agreement. And then you immediately return it all. But the minute you start keeping some and pulling this thing, that's theft. And that that's major. If they're in America, for example, and they get caught, they're facing 30 years plus. Like it's extremely serious stuff. I hate to say this, but the people that are doing this kind of sound like the Viptardians, it kind of, to me, sound like they're Vip 1 Tenders.

1:03:02They went after Adam back, right? I mean, Adam back, of course, had a huge, trick-and-target on his back during this entire fiasco. And what better way to get some kind of, you know, back at him or not supporting Vip 1 Tenders? I don't know. Again, put the tin pull out of him. With the dump trade off, because it's like, okay, have 50 million and be looking over the over your shoulder, the rest of your life. Be a better. Yeah, not worth it. Unethical, maybe spend decades in jail or have a pretty good chance of getting 10 million and being considered a hero. Like if they, if they hadn't, even if, you know, honestly, if they just returned it all and said, hey, we're White House and we returned it, they, even without any guarantee over a finder's speed, they could have come back and met like, bro, can you please hook me up? And then, you know, they could have gone to the community and say, hey, we're really hoping that they give us a fee. And, you know, Blockstream would look bad if they didn't give them something. So they, they would at least get, I would think a few million. And then you'd look like a hero. You'd be like, yeah, I'm the one who was the White Hat. I saved the day and nobody caused, didn't cost anybody

1:04:05any money and nothing was stolen. And you make a few million dollars from that like versus or do you know, being a villain and and and unethical and having, you know, having the hassles of trying to hide that and being, you know, I mean, literally, it could be, you know, it could be seven years from now, they make screw up some transaction and get caught and blamma going in a jail cell for two decades, three decades. So if that's never returned, I'm assuming that the liquid federation or Blockstream is going to have to come up with that shortage because right now, even though the liquid network started back up, there's the blocks are empty and they're not allowing people to to peg back out. And I'm sure there's a lot of people that got stuck. They converted their Bitcoin to LBTC to liquid tokens and now on out, but they're still waiting. And I can, you know, and of course, there's a, there's a what 15% shortage. So does everyone get a 15% haircut or does the liquid federation or,

1:05:07you know, Blockstream? Yeah, well, that's what happens. There's no peg because they based due to due to a flaw, they basically minted their own liquid Bitcoin. These hackers just out of thin air printed their own liquid Bitcoin, turned it in and said, hey, give us the Bitcoin because that's the way it works. It's one to one. And so this this flaw allowed them to do that. It, it assumed the liquid tokens were actual Bitcoin were actual liquid tokens to get Bitcoin. So I don't know if everyone gets a haircut or Blockstream just comes up with it. I would hope or think Blockstream is going to come up with that shortage. 48 million bucks at 80 grand. Yeah, but I don't think I don't think Adam back or whoever has said anything about it. So we'll see. Maybe they're negotiating it. I saw a tweet from Samsung. He said, hey, I think we're going to get all of it back. So we'll see.

1:06:11Yeah, there's nothing really crazy new. It's still 508, 590, 8.5, you know, Bitcoin that's being held by the hackers and they're in recovery phase. It's still kind of like seemingly where it was before. It's in the nest. If you guys want to like dive in a little bit more, but I did, I did for something about Adam back saying and I'm just trying to like confirm these things because as a previous journalist, I hate saying things out loud before, you know, if everything's allegedly right until you know for sure, that he would pick up the peg or something in regards to that. Oh, okay. Yeah, that's that would be the right thing. Hey, Tray, Tray Riley, I see you're up here. I'm not sure we've heard you. Hey, Terence. Hey, Terence, just real quick question. Just put this in context. I survived the co-card hack. I've been stacking since 2016. Quite a bit of Bitcoin. I run a medical device company for everyone listening. And it's,

1:07:12this is coming from my perspective. It's just, what do you mean is the average job? So I'm looking, I'm standing on the beach. I live on the beach and forward, I'm standing on the beach. I see a tweet come through and I'm like, oh, co-card.hack on MK3. And I'm like, what? You know, and so I see this self custody thing as a real problem. I'm looking for some advice because here I am. I'm running my ass back on the golf card to the save. Barely got it out of there. I survived that. Barely. And so now I call Swan and I go, I'm going to go to multi-sig and do all this and block stream. And I order two J devices. Then I see on Twitter, block stream gets hacked. Well, block stream didn't get hacked to see, you know, it's the liquid federation. Yeah. Yeah, it's the liquid federation. But here you go as an average guy reading this stuff. You know, and knowing that these companies are putting out these wallets, you don't know, you know, I'm not a software guy. And so I'm like, who do you trust? It's like, I'm like, I'm like going back to the big exchanges, fidelity, coin bays, river. And I'm terrified on,

1:08:18you know, I'm not a really tech savvy. I can get through it. But my question to the team here is, what solution do we have? Well, your level of custody does need to match your level of technical knowledge, 100%. And you really shouldn't be sitting in any single-sig card, let alone a cold card of all, which is technically the most difficult and most complex if you don't really fully understand it. And what we've talked about a lot, you know, when this happened, but I can just quickly summarize for you is that if you do want to have your own keys and your own private keys, multi signature and multi vendor probably is the best for you. So you aren't depending on any one device or one location or necessarily even one jurisdiction if you have other, you know, legal threats or whatnot. Correct. Okay. But my question is so so. Well, then you want to have to run to the safe. You wouldn't you wouldn't you wouldn't do it. I run to say, but anyway, I got

1:09:19out there, but here's my thing. As you kind of as an average guy, you look at this, you go, okay, block strain, out of vulnerability, what's the say, their J device will have a vulnerability in six months, which is why again, you don't want to depend on any one manufacturer or one device. You could have a cold card in a multi signature. None of those cold cards got hacked. Best practices still move to a new setup with a different manufacturer because remember Bitcoin didn't get hacked. No Bitcoin got hacked even in the block store thing, right? It has not been hacked. Some manufacturers because humans are fallible made mistakes cold card. That was a horrific mistake. And so, you know, in Bitcoin, we always say, you know, it's a it's a trustless system, but the truth is all you can do is minimize and distribute trust. And so if you think in terms of how do I minimize trust and distribute it yet something that I'm comfortable with, that's probably the best setup for you. And, you know, and you also don't have to have one pot all in one whole thing.

1:10:21So that sucks that that happened to you. Thank God you were paying attention and you were able to, you know, leave the golf course or wherever the beach and run over and change that. And yeah, that absolutely saved you. But that that was a lesson for a lot of us. You know, a lot of people were were still depending on single-sick devices. And you know, we've talked about this a lot for years about the benefits of having a multi-signature setup. And at the time, we weren't even thinking necessarily about the cold card thing, but it was more about inheritance and how do loved ones, you know, find your keys and you don't have to leave a whole treasure map. And what happens if there's a bad actor that grabs one, you know, let alone trying to find two in different locations. So it really does solve a lot of problems. And that's probably something, you know, for you to think about. So that's great if you went to a swan or wherever, you know, there's, you know, dark was up here earlier talking about cost and unchained. And you know, now Bitcoin was doing it for free. You know, there's Leana, there's Nunchuck. You can do it sovereignly. You can do it directly with Sparrow or you can use a company to hold one backup enterprise key, which I do think is the best.

1:11:27Because there is someone that you can depend on to help you with with support, yet they still have a minority of the keys and are just holding a backup security. They're not holding any of your Bitcoin. Okay. Well, thank you. I appreciate it. It's just, you know, I'm talking about the average show and it's like, well, average Joe shouldn't have cold card. I mean, that's amazing that you jumped to that, but that was the mistake. And unfortunately, you know, too many influencers were telling people to go straight to cold card. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Thank you, buddy. Appreciate it. Yeah. And then, then, then, thank God you're safe. Glad you're safe out there. Yeah. I think the multi-safes good, but the inheritance and all that, but I mean, there is some to say about just a single safe dice roll. I mean, that is you don't have to worry if you can get to that level. I mean, I feel safe doing that, but I don't have an inheritance problem yet. But

1:12:28if you're just a one-man show, I mean, multi-sig, you know, what's more complicated having all them seeds or just one, you know, you made yourself, you know, learning to make your own P is just P. I mean, every Bitcoin needs to know how to do that minimum. You can't depend on a company to give you your keys, no matter you choose three companies. What three companies are? Well, that's not what I mean by multi-sig. I mean, you can still have a majority and a quorum. You can still be fully sovereign because you don't need the company's key if you're going to be distributing and be responsible for two of them, the two of three, or, you know, a three of five. You can do that at an untruck or with Kasa and you can build your own, you know, if you want. If you do want to give like one to an attorney or to an estate attorney or, you know, a family member and they still can't do anything. In fact, you can take that one and clone it 10 times and give it to 10 family members. They can't do anything. But, you know, if you die or you pass, at least there's one that they

1:13:31can access and they only have to get a hold of one of your others. Yeah, that's good. That's good. For sure. I mean, I agree with the multi-sig 100% like that. I'm just saying we've got to learn how to make crime seeds though. Still that just bottom line. I'm sorry. I'm just a maxi. Yeah, no, absolutely. And until people do, they really probably shouldn't be in self-custody. They really should be custing with someone else and they can have it with river or with swan or whatever, but they should learn if they want that utility. Absolutely. All right. Where were we? Whose hand was up? I missed the hands. I saw that. Not sure. I also did not see it. When you do it, when you do it right, it's feeling like you're your own hardware car company, you know? Yeah. When you do it right, you feel like that. So, Trey, did you end up signing up with swan when you went over there in a panic?

1:14:32Not, not with so, not yet because I got the 2J devices in the mail and I read the block string thing and all I can think about is my next, you know, I'm just waiting for J to get hacked because they use the J. Here's a tip. Here's a tip if you do want swan because yes, it it is one of the unfortunate things that they have the J. But by the way, they are adding functionality to at least one other new hardware wallet very, very soon. But so here's a little hack I tell people that like to stay at swan. Get yourself another manufacturer device like, say a treasure. Get the treasure, use treasure's entropy, get those words, import those into your other jade. Now you're using 2Js with swan, but they're really two different manufacturers. The jade is just holding the seed that was generated by the other manufacturer. You see? Okay. That sounds good. I'm, you know, another question though I can go down the rabbit hole is treasure. How do we know that they're closed code, right? So how do we know they're really going to be legit? Do we

1:15:32know they're fully legit? They're employees creating the entropy, right? That's the problem. I guess I got a role in my own dice or do whatever, right? To create my own. Just practice and learn that man. It's not that hard. Yeah, it's, yeah, you, you, yeah, the fact that you already had a cold cart as when you probably can roll your own dice. But my point is that if you're doing a multi-sig and you have three separate keys coming together one from a company enterprise key, one from your jade, one from your treasure, you kind of don't have to worry about that at least for what you have in that multi-sig wallet. Any, any one of those keys can still create their own single sigs and you can put honey pots on those just to see if they ever get exploited. But the, okay, you know, just to not have to worry about that is, is kind of nice. That makes sense. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. Where were we, Lauren? I was in Crazy Land and then listening to you guys. I think,

1:16:33were you selling your meta planet? Are we selling selling a little meta planet? And I will stop the joke there as I thought of some other inappropriate things. No, I think swan has actually come out and said they use jade. So do it with that. What you may. I mean, you're a lot of these outsourced folks are just using similar tools that you can as a sovereign person to hold your own keys. So you're outsourcing that. I think Terrence, your little speech was bang on where you're saying, hey, man, you can do these things yourself. You can multi-sig yourself. You can do it three of five. You can use family numbers. You can use it, you know, whatever party you trust as a third to hold that key for you. So I think that is important. And I also think any influencers trying to cookie cutter your cram you into the same thing is not wise. Every person is on a different journey and needs to evaluate all of this stuff using risks, etc. And make decisions for yourself. It's you're making decisions for you and your family and your

1:17:34errors and be very studious and put a lot of time effort energy into doing this. It's super important. So I think you you nail that run on the head Terrence. So um, somebody else was up here but I do not see the end anymore. Tiffany, in your legacy talk last night, what are you guys talking about multi-signature? Or was there any other system that was interesting to you? Yeah, multi-sig, of course, comes up, but it wasn't that main focus. I think it was we had on the gentleman who created what is called the Greek chain out in Denmark and we were having him share what he built and how he's moving that forward through his family, um, generationally speaking, of course, and it's basically a method where each generation rewards the one before it and they cover expenses and um, yeah, shares Bitcoin basically among the direct line heirs. And as just another, I guess we're talking about decisions Lauren. So yeah, just other decisions to think on and there's a whole show you guys

1:18:39can go listen to. But the mechanics of that was still a multi-signature wasn't it wasn't it having a key for the generation below you? Yeah, she said great day and my aunt had a great day. It was a great dog. How did you guys find him? Because he was he was new to spaces as well, right? So how did you guys find him? Yeah, Natalie, my sister Natalie found him actually through a gentleman called Tim Sykou and we just a different show that we did in regards to a similar topic. So yeah, just to kind of get the, you know, good news that's out there for Bitcoiners and other Bitcoiners, you know, globally, what's going on? What's going on in the Bitcoin community and outside of the United States kind of deal? And yeah, we're just kind of like word of mouth. So props to my sister, that was all her. It's a really interesting system. So I threw it in the purple pill thread chat,

1:19:40if you guys want to go look at what he's created if you're interested in legacy, whether that means giving back or, you know, whatever legacy means to you, it doesn't need to mean strictly wealth building. Like, it's, it's what you how you define legacy. Everybody has a different definition and I think it's important to define that at the start. But yeah, it's it's really beautiful what he's created. It also helps in procreation, it seems. So, you said procreation to that. I did say that. Yeah, you woke Lauren up. Yeah, I'm like, whoa, procreation, I'm in. Make them babies. I was like, where are my hosts? Please explain. Please explain. Yeah, right? You guys should have come to the show last night. No, it just, you know, if you were in the system, it's basically you prepare the next generation and they just divvy up your Bitcoin, whether it, like, with the 33% goes back to the previous generation to start and then 66% goes to like the

1:20:45direct line errors and then 1% kind of goes to the admin and expenses and again, covers those costs to ensure like sustainability and it just moves down like first, second, third, fourth, and fifth. Like, you, you move your actual, yeah, it's a, it's a whole deal. There's a way to look at it. The GreekChain.info is the website. If you want to go look at it, it's pretty easily. Just, you can read through it his thoughts and yeah, again, another show we did. I don't know if we want to dive into that or maybe we can. Happy to redo the show. Well, let me ask you, maybe this is kind of creepy, but you just made me think because of where AI and robotics and where the future technology is moving, you know, if you're, if you're passing, you know, let's say my dad is on his deathbed or something, you know, could, could we take his knowledge, you know, through AI, you'd have to plan ahead of time, you know, get it into some system and on a robot that looks like him. And could I have him around and talk to him? And could I still have

1:21:47conversations with him because it has, you know, it somehow is acquired a lot of his knowledge. I don't know how it would get all that, but it goes back through, you know, all of his writings and parts of, I don't know, it's, uh, maybe that's creepy, but you're really thinking beyond the box there. You can stuff your cat. This is, he's cutting it too. They made it really simple. Like it's actually like a letter that you pass down through the generations and it contains like these parts of the private key code to your generation's Bitcoin inheritance. So it's not quite AI. It is still very analog with writing and storytelling, I think, is a huge component as well to, to upkeep how you acquired the Bitcoin and the time and the energy spent towards that. So, uh, yeah, there's, it's, it's just something to think about how, how you want to pass on, you know, and how your children and here are things if you have children, your possessions, your assets, and also private keys, guys, that's the next step. So we have

1:22:50possessions, right? We have assets, but there's also these private keys and how are we going to pass them down just another strategy that he kind of built. And I think it's a privilege, right? owning significant amounts of Bitcoin. So what are we going to do? Uh, perhaps for forever. Yeah. By the way, I don't, yeah, I'm not, I'm not, she said strategy and it made me think of, uh, what Michael Seller has said a couple of times, which is, you know, it sounded like he was going to take his Bitcoin to the grave. And I'm in the camp that that's not such a bad plan because well, that goes all the way back to Satoshi, not my, exactly stays in the network. But then I've heard people, you know, Ontarians state that, well, then it's going to just kill all these UTXOs and there's only, you know, a finite amount. We kind of need them around. So I'm in the camp of, like, it's a positive thing to actually, you know, if you don't have errors, you're actually just contributing back to everyone in the network that's still around. So I think it's not a necessarily a bad thing to, you know, well, it's probably a better charity than some of these other charities.

1:23:50Yeah. Yeah. As far as if you're thinking about charity, very Carnegie. I knew a charity. Yeah. I was going to say something about midpoint, the Midwest Bitcoin summit, because I have a couple free tickets if anyone wants any. But if you do, I have to ride in your luggage. Yes, you do. We'll go to Sean and we can go to dad first, but just if anyone needs a ticket and wants to go, if you guys can just come up on stage, I don't want any DMs, you have to come up on stage. Oh, well, shoot. I sent you a DM. Terrence, uh, it's a tiffney from what I'm here and you're saying have kids have babies. So Michael Saylor does not, uh, uh, Sean, who's up on stage? Really, guy? You need to have a girlfriend first, buddy. Ooh, that I'll ask you how that works. Xing. And then my, my next question for the group is Satoshi. My guess is he probably did not have kids either. I'm pretty confident of that chat. Terrence, if you run out of tickets, let me know. I

1:24:56got a few that I don't know how to get rid of. So if you need more, just pass my way. Okay. Yeah, um, regarding it came up on the show last night. And I don't think we talk about enough about what Michael Dunworth did, uh, as far as putting a coin out there in 2140. You know, anybody that, and the legacy conversation last night was fascinating because we did have some folks come up and say, I don't care about my legacy, which is a very different perspective than others come from. But, um, just throwing out to the room, a great suggestion is to, you know, put coins out there at 2140 and past rather than just die with your keys if you don't have any other, you know, thoughts of what to do with them because, uh, you know, incentivizing the miners out in the future is, um, you know, just a great way to ensure that this, uh, beautiful asset continues on indefinitely. Well, and Michael Dunworth's case, you know, he, he, the, the private key is public. You can look at it right now. It's, it's on one of fractal encrypts, uh, beautiful pieces of art. But yeah, it's time locked until 2140, which is pretty cool. Douglass.

1:26:00Or, hey, Douglas. Hey, thanks for having me up. Hey, um, I'll take a free ticket. I'm going, I already have my ticket, but my wife's coming along. She's just gonna work in the hotel room, but she may want to come. So I'll take a free ticket. Okay. Great. Doug. It's, you've got one for you, uh, DM me, but one is allocated to you. I just, I'm gonna need, uh, I probably need like an email or something that I have to send over to them. Um, I've got one left. I think Sean has one or two. Uh, I'll DM you. Thank you. Beautiful, Doug. Yeah. Parents, do you know if you're speaking on Wednesday or Thursday or both? Uh, what, what day is the first day? Wednesday. Okay. Yeah. The first day right after lunch. So I get everyone with food coma. It's gonna be very exciting. I think it's gonna be exciting. Okay. Good. Could be worse. It could be during lunch, like mine. So everybody will be eating. Oh, yeah. Well, they did that on purpose because Andrew contacted me. He's like, which talks do you think will probably be the least attended and probably the most lame?

1:27:00I said, well, there's the Sean guy. I haven't met him in person, but every time it comes up on spaces, we start to check our emails at the lunch. I would totally were going over to the weed conference for brownies. So I think we'll be in good shape for your talk. Exactly. Uh, at least what? Oh, go Mars. Well, I don't think his hand was up, but I just heat. I don't ever see him up here. So so. Hey guys. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah, what's up? Hey, Lauren. I would. Yeah. I would like the ticket you're giving out. How are you? Good to see you. Oh, wow. Good to see you as well. Great show is usual. I would appreciate a ticket if you have any left. Thank you. Oh, yeah. Are you heading out there? Yes. I mean, I'm on the way. He's on the wait list. Yeah. Oh, you're on the wait list because of the tickets are sold out? Oh, I'm not sure. That's why I came up and stayed. Okay. So you're still in the conference

1:28:03mempool. Interesting. Yeah. So DM me and I think I already have your information, but so yeah, I connected already. Okay. So my two tickets are gone. So Sean's now. It's now up to you. Anyone. He's a real SAG member. He's truly on SAG. So he's the real deal. handsome fella. Great guy. I met him a few times. Who's that? Alex. Oh, yeah. You know, and he came to the Bitcoin today party in Vegas. Yep. I see the Santa Monica. I've seen him at local meetups and yeah. Yep. Good to meet you. And I think he's a I think he's a vegetarian or a vegan. I'm a vegan. I'm a 18 years strong vegan. Wow. I was a I was a I was a I was a 35 year vegetarian. Anyway, wow. That's bad ass. Well, I don't know that it was bad ass looking back. I think it was just I was siopped. I needed to be I needed a piece of meat. Well, yeah. I told you. I live. Oh, yeah. I

1:29:06also needed to eat better. Sorry. Yeah, that's good. Alex. Everywhere. Alex was up at the bell army with Andrews. Do you get around there? Where you were you one of these vegetarians that like ate french fries for lunch and were like, I'm healthy. Yes. And that's what I'm saying. I grew up on processed seed oils like every single frickin meal. We would go to these special grocery stores where you could get fake chicken, fake steak, fake whatever. And it's just it was made out of gluten and it was a religious thing, right, parents? Like that was yeah, it was a religious thing, but it was just you gotta be a whole food vegan. You gotta cook everything you eat. At least I do 90% of what I make myself. Oh wow. So, so hopefully it's not nothing processed there. Yeah, yeah. And I'd be with muscle as well. But thanks again. Yeah. I came up here to say I stand

1:30:06against y'all whenever I say up y'all are running like die with your coins like big ass like how you kidding me like we see what you guys are doing and we're not falling for it. Okay. Die with your coins. I'm in big coin to make money so that I could spend money and maybe give some money to my family as well. But die with my keys to help the network is you know what it's a sign up and don't fall for it. And we were one of the audience don't fall for this. That's not why we're in big coin is to die with a button burn our keys at the end of our lives. Get out of here. What an amateur hour. See, there's a lot of different viewpoints. There's two in a row right here. Some people in the coin believe in there's a wrong belief you need to eat steak and other people believe you need to eat vegetables. Guess what? Neither one of them are wrong. If a guy like Michael Saylor who has no heirs and probably hangs around with you know ladies of the night such a who knows I'm just throwing things out. Wow. If he wants to die with his dumb tailed fast. Yeah. Well there's the Carnegie and the Rockefeller. It's okay. It's okay. There's not a right and wrong

1:31:11here. It's it's completely up to you. Do what's best for you. But Mars is going to have these entitled kids running around. They're going to be little shit. They're going to literally get one whole Bitcoin. Yeah. That's not happening. The club. Yeah. The fee got system. The fee got legal system to set up trust so that my little kids don't run around and spend all their Bitcoin when they're 18 years old. They're going to wait till they're 21 and they're going to get dropped to drugs that they can spend their Bitcoin on healthcare or guns or red meat or something else like that. That's what they're going to be allowed to spend their Bitcoin on. But nothing we're going to use the legal system. We're going to weaponize the legal system. I have a trial that disowned me and I hope that it all turns around in the future. However, I don't have a lot of hope and I'm not sure that I would want to leave a bunch of Bitcoin. Well yeah, no, it's heartbreaking every day. It's a pain. So it doesn't always turn out the nice rosy picture that we see when we're

1:32:14young and when you're older and looking back, you life throws you these curve balls that if you sat down when you were young and wrote out this rosy picture of what your life would look like, it really punches you in the face sometimes and you build up these pains. And unfortunately, not all kids turn out good and you can't, it just doesn't make sense as to why either. And so I get you Mars. I'm not saying you're wrong either. I'm just saying like for the people that do want to, they like, I don't think it would be a total waste because it would benefit your kids because you're going to keep your coins and you're going to keep, you know, so it's just not a total waste is my only point. I'm not saying we should do it or anything. I'm just saying like don't think it's like cash that gets burned in a house fire or something like it's gone forever or whatever. It's still that value is still being exported out of the current the up system and it will remain in the Bitcoin network. So that's all I'm saying. Yeah, yeah. Well, my more serious point is this learn is that I think that if Bitcoin is going to run the 40 trillion or 100 trillion dollars

1:33:15in it generates wealthy Bitcoiners. I think principled wealthy Bitcoiners have an ability with that wealth to change the world for the good. And I think that there are better ways to change the world for good than to burn all that money in. Yeah, no, you're getting involved in, you know, charity anything from charity to supporting your local neighborhood school system to get involved in politics too. Yeah, no, if you find a valid project like that that is enhancing something or even building in the Bitcoin ecosystem, I think those are definitely all better causes than just, you know, throwing your cold card in your casket with you. So totally sign off on that one Mars for sure. It's exciting. And also, you know, make an investments, right? Investing in in the Bitcoin industry and all that stuff too. That's why I'm not necessarily kind of a big big corner because I believe that like as these early stage Bitcoiners got extremely wealthy. What should they be doing with their Bitcoin wealth? Yeah, experimenting, trying to start

1:34:18companies, you know, and that's I think Mars, a lot of these people even like Jack Dorsey and stuff who younger and they're when they were, you know, in their 23s, whatever and still just came into this incredible wealth. They did go try everything. They drove fancy cars. They did all this stuff. Terrence tells stories of this and is like, Hey man, I retired twice in my life, but when you can eat anything you want and go anywhere you want and do any like scratch any itch that, you know, for a lot of people is the grass on the other side of the fence. When you can do that, you're really faced with this existential crisis of like, what is the meaning of life? Why am I here? What is the purpose? And the things that you're talking about address those purposes, which is it's bigger than little peon me and my ego and all the, you know, the lusts that I have and all of these desires. And when I can do anything, it's actually counterproductive to eat as much as I want, et cetera. And you know, flying over it in your private jet to the Mediterranean, it's not really that cool if you're not with somebody that is extremely special to you and loving.

1:35:21And so the things that you're saying is like, Hey, if we want to make the world a better place, it's going to start with us. It's going to start with me. A lot of these systems would work if it weren't for this human nature that's just blowing it up. And I think that if we can eat channel all of this energy and this value into the programs and projects like you're talking, I think we can change the world in future generations. So I'm with you, man. Don't think that I'm, I'm, you know, let's go. Yes, yes. And there's an argument to being a number go up, Maxi, that extends beyond just degenerate spending. It's not that I'm, people aren't necessarily a number go up, Maxi, so they can buy for our ease and second vacation homes. Although that will take place. And I'll probably participate in that to some degree. But it's that you have the ability to change your world with money. We've seen it. The bad guys do it all the time. We need more good guys with money. Let's go. Let's go. Yes, sorry about your, your, your kid learn, but, uh, no, it's painful, man. It's like, seriously, every day, it's like a knife. Yeah. So it's, it sucks.

1:36:23Well, I'll call you daddy if that helps. Yeah. Lord, sometimes I don't know when you're trolling or not. And I get the sense now that you're not. So I also say, no, I appreciate you sharing that. trolling is my drug of choice and being absolutely retarded just because life sometimes is so serious. And so it hurts so bad that you just have to laugh because ultimately, exactly, you know, the joke is on you almost, especially if you don't have anything beyond just this life. And you don't have faith beyond that. It's just like what the hell, you know, so I spend a lot of time joking around, uh, and I laugh at my own jokes too, which is really ridiculous. And my poor wife, tolerate it. It helps hide the pain too. Yeah, it does. Yeah. So I, I probably need to grow up a lot at the times, but and do it, unfortunately, in real time, like trying to be accountable for for decisions because I am human, make autonomous states and say a live stupid shit, but, you know, that's being vulnerable, that's having integrity and that's being responsible and accountable at a personal level, which is also one of the missing components and building blocks of a society that's

1:37:24denigrating because these things are missing. Anyway, I digress and, uh, dark has this handle. Yeah, look, I, you know, I appreciate what Mars is saying and I agree, right? There's no point in dying with your wealth. Like what's, what's the point of that? Um, at the same time, you know, when you talk about big Bitcoin, there's a big difference between let's take River as an example, who, when I've orangepill people, I recommend me use River because they show proof of reserves and knock it or meta-plan it or any of the other Treasury companies that have come around. They're, they're, you know, they get thrown into the same, um, you know, pot, but they're very different. Right? So Bitcoin held on River or even on Coinbase as much as I'm not a huge fan of Coinbase. At least that's Bitcoin you can get to if you want it. Right? Like if you decide one day, I want to take my Bitcoin off River, you can. You can't get your Bitcoin out of knockout, you can't get your

1:38:26Bitcoin out of meta-plan it, you can't get your Bitcoin out of strategy or any other, um, company. And I still have not seen a compelling case now. Why I'd be better off paying some public company and all their executives, all the salaries, and all the risks that comes along with it as we've just seen from meta-planet. Um, I just can't make a compelling case why that's a better play than Bitcoin in self-custody or Bitcoin at River or Bitcoin at Coinbase. Like those things can't get thrown together into the same pot. They're very different. Hey, Dirk, can you explain the meta-planet thing? I don't think I or does everybody understand what happened there? Um, yeah, so, um, Well, I want real quick. I just want to say I agree with you, Dirk said that that's why I hold self-custody Bitcoin and I don't hold factory companies. Have I traded treasury companies? Yeah, sure. I have to. But I've held them for like, you know, a couple of weeks, a couple of days, you know, I got ripped on MSTR calls. That's where that was my big bad one. Oh, man, that was a

1:39:27bad day when I bought MSTR calls that were above 400. But yeah, no, I agree with you. And that's why I'm in self-custody Bitcoin. Totally agree. Um, so let's just go over the meta-planet thing because, you know, to me, um, and again, this is my opinion, um, that really stinks of fraud. Um, these guys put in place what's called a full ratchet option. So, imagine you're, you're joining a company. This is, this is actually relatively common in venture capital, venture capitalists will invest in your company and they'll say, look, I want a full ratchet protection on my, um, on my equity. And what that means is that they're, they're, their option or their equity is a percentage of the company, not a share in the company. So, Dylan, apparently, and Simon, um, they gave themselves full ratchet, uh, ownership of,

1:40:28of the company. I mean, their option was non-deludive, non-deludive. And then, as a business model, they sold common shares and used that money to buy Bitcoin. But every time, every single time, they sold common shares, essentially, their ownership in the company went up, right? Because their, their ownership is non-deludive. So, I, the reports I've seen, I think this was correct. It was, it was essentially 20%. So, one in five shares that got sold, like when you bought shares of that upon it, you were instantly being diluted by 20% by the executives. Because their shares were non-deludive and you as a shareholder were getting diluted every time they sold shares. So, it was a crazy, it's a crazy compensation scheme. I'm in, in venture capital, I've never seen it in a public company. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I've just never seen it. But, especially

1:41:33a public company that's business model is issuing shares to buy Bitcoin. Did they disclose that? I don't think I have to disclose it as a public company. It was disclosed in Japanese. So, it wasn't, there was nowhere you could find it in English. So, if you read through the documents very carefully and you were fluent in Japanese, then I guess you could have caught it. But, I don't think, I don't think the majority of people in this space had any clue that, you know, there was this full-ratchet, non-deludive option that was held by management. And, as I said, like, it's bad enough if you're doing this in a public company and sort of hiding it through foreign language whatever. But, the very business model of better planet was to issue more shares. Very similar to strategy, right? So, to combine a business model where you're constantly

1:42:35downloading common shareholders and buying Bitcoin, but you don't get deleted, which means every single time you issue common shares, your stack of the Bitcoin goes up. I mean, that's wild. It's incomprehensible. Renee. Oh. So, hey, hey, I'm driving. Hope it sounds okay. And, yeah, I first heard of Doc to start that. I appreciate you were talking to him. You were, you were concerned back when it was, you know, kind of, you know, region high number. You still had some concern about it. I remember you talking about it. And, and I appreciate that. I wish I would have listened. But I, I'm like Larry LaParte going toe to toe with David Bailey over this. Like, I'm appreciate that man so much. And breaking it down, you know, it's not that he's just trying to

1:43:37eviscerate him and he's just telling the truth of how above and beyond the norm that this pay scale was for for them. I mean, in my eyes now, the Bitcoin Treasuries, and I'm not talking about strategy, all the ones that came out during the bull run, took advantage of the bull market, took advantage of a Bitcoin community. And honestly, a main coin, a shit coin would have been honest. That's how I feel about it. Thank you for your attention. Thanks for now. Yeah. You know, remember, this is why I say that, you know, there's a huge difference between Bitcoin on river, Bitcoin on Coinbase, and then taking the plunge into public companies that are going to buy Bitcoin for you and promise you some type of, you know, leverage or something else that, you know, you don't understand nobody understands and you're into a trust

1:44:42be bro scenario. So I think when we talk about Bitcoin, we really have to break down. There's a huge difference between public companies that are using your capital to buy Bitcoin and between Bitcoin held at an exchange, and especially one like river that shows proof of reserves. Right? This space is sort of a trust, no one space. So look at the people that are being the most transparent. Right? And like when we look at Coinbase versus river, Coinbase is now involved in gambling. They have what? You can bet on the 15 minute price on Bitcoin. I think that Gemini's now doing sports betting. Like these are not transparent operations. These are operations that are out to fleece their customers, which is what gambling is. So again, you know, there are good options other than self-custody if you're new to the space and you're getting going or you're

1:45:47just not or you're scared. Right? Like again, I'm a huge fan of self-custody for a lot of reasons. We don't want to go into them now, but at least with a company like River, they show proof of reserves. You can get your Bitcoin, you know, usually within a few hours, right? Right? Right? Turns. I think that's fair to say. So, you know, from for my two cents, if you're going to use an exchange, use one that that focuses on Bitcoin that shows proof of reserves that's transparent as much as they can be. And that would be my suggestion. You still there, Renee? Or you done? Yeah, yeah, I'm here. And I just appreciate that. And always, you know, always appreciate your perspective, dark. And another view on learning.

1:46:52Be standard. And then a lot of unnest, you know, just people like me. I know. I'm trying to just learn. And I think a lot of people have something to offer. I do think Bitcoin is a big can. And we can't be too narrow minded about what we think is allowed to be in it. Anyway, I'll shut up. Thanks for listening to me. Yeah, just make one more point. You know, many of us work at bigger companies or have worked at bigger companies. And just think about the way those companies ran. Like, do you think that their executives put their customers before themselves? Right? Like we see even today with some of the biggest companies, Bank of America, you know, if you read Porter-Stansbury's work, you know, they've been manipulating their earnings, allegedly, to the benefit of the executive team who gets their bonuses based on certain metrics. Right? Like this culture of

1:47:58looting for lack of a better word, it permeates almost all of the Wall Street ecosystem, you know, big public companies. And again, I'll just point again to Coinbase. Like, what are they doing getting involved in, you know, perpeting and these kind of crazy gambling futures? Right? Is that the company you want to give your capital to? Right? You know that if they're offering these products, then they really don't care about their customers because you don't get rich, betting on the 15-minute price move in Bitcoin or on the result in last night's football game. Right? Like that's not how you build wealth. That's how you destroy wealth. So if a company is out there and their business model is to destroy their customers, that should be a red flag for everybody in the space. Right.

1:49:01Ranch, did you want to chime in here on the conversation? Hey, what's up, fellas? Yeah, I'm exhausted. To be honest, I had a very long week, but I learned a lot of stuff just in general about people and not to judge people by but it looks alone. That's for sure. And I got to know some great people, let's say I went on a little vacation for a little bit. Apparently ugly. I feel that I'm more than two pleas into the eyes, but they're good. They're hot and they're told within the right place, you know what I mean? And you wouldn't expect that unless you actually sat down with them, you know, like I did face to face and spoke to them. And I feel like a lot of times just from being in this space and trying to learn from all you guys, there's just so much information that gets thrown around and then this room is about people that get thrown around and, you know, yeah, I just, I think it's counterproductive to the space, but I really just jumped on because

1:50:04I wanted to know, I heard you speaking about this Midwest conference and I think I'm interested in going, is that still available? It tickets are sold out? I don't know if they're sold out, but Sean might still have an extra one available. I just got rid of my two. Sean, are you there? Yeah, yeah, if you send me an email and I think you just need a name, I think it needs a match ID, so I think I need a name and email, but just DM it to me, I can get you on. It's a general admission pass. Yeah, Rens, you see that there with Sean? Yeah, yeah, I'll definitely send you an email, send you a DM with my email, my email information and hopefully I could get the in and meet you guys. I mean, I'd love to meet Tarencent person because, you know, I learned so much from him and a lot of these guys in the space and I'm going to be honest, you know, for a little while, I was a little worried because you really don't know who is who and I'll be honest with you guys, I never once Googled any of you guys and I never really cared to know who anybody was. I was just

1:51:07going off with I heard and you could just tell who's good people and who aren't and I hope nobody took my words the wrong way because I never intended to be sometimes I troll, I know I troll, I break balls, that's how I am in real life, I'm a ball breaker, but you know, my heart is in the right place and I believe in Bitcoin and I believe, you know, we really could use it to change the world and if that's what this is about, you know, I'm in 200 percent. You get a chance to meet Tarencent possibly, he normally doesn't like talk him to the club so he'll hide in like the super VIP room. But I can connect you, hug up with me and I'll get you. Yeah, without a doubt, I mean, I think, you know, I did come in hot when I came into the space and you know, I went about it the wrong way and I apologize if I heard anybody's feeling so I'm going to see it. That was not my intention and thank you guys for having me. You guys are the best. Appreciate it.

1:52:16Hard to get to take when surrounded by all the ladies. So if you see him out of the conferences, so he'll be surrounded by all the ladies. Well, I look up to Tarencent, I want to be surrounded by the ladies too. I mean, you're going to be looking down at it. You never turn down the ladies. Lauren looks down at everybody. I do. I'm tall. G money. Why won't you be there, Lauren? And what will be the next Bitcoin event you'll be at if not? I don't know. It was having some DMs during this conversation and I think it would be fun to do a get together for our next 100K event. Maybe celebrate that. You know, go to Tahoe or go somewhere fun and just hang out. No plans, no, you know, just really get together, have drinks, have dinner, do whatever. You know, just enjoy celebrating the next 100K together. So your 19th 100K party? Yeah. I don't want to

1:53:19make this about me and ego and everything else. And I struggle because I love events and I love getting together. But I also struggle with supporting things that I don't align with morally, etc. And I think one way I can, you know, I can vote with my dollars and my feet and not go to some of these things. But at the same point, I don't want to come right out and just start, you know, talking crap anymore because I think some of these things are still really good for Bitcoin. But I can still make a stance by saying, no, I'm not going to go to a set event and I don't need to, you know, do this, this and this. I'm not here to, you know, be an influencer or to try to gain notoriety or be famous. Any of that stuff. I'm really here for, you know, what Mars was talking about, change the world, what Rensh just mentioned, like, hey, if, and this is, in my estimation, the best shot we have as humanity to try to make these positive changes. And that's why I'm here. So

1:54:22it feels good to have your ego stroked and to be like, oh, hey, it's learning. But it's not, like, it's struggle. I don't want to be that person. So I think it's more fun to just hang out as just a bunch of plebs and, you know, have a couple beers or many beers in the first few cases of me hanging out with the plebs because it was so much fun. I got a little carried away. But just to hang out with each other and, you know, just celebrate life and 100k and just doing whatever. Not listening to speakers. Not that I didn't enjoy your speech in, um, biggest parents. That was wonderful. I thought you did an amazing job. But, uh, yeah, I just, I'm trying to thread the needle, you know, I don't want to get all carried away and wrapped up in this being my identity or anything else, but still want to contribute and want to really dedicate part of my life to this movement because I really truly think it is one of the only shots we have. So yeah, that's where I'm at. Yeah, I hear you. When you know this though, Lauren, but I'll just say it because it may be it's helpful and because I know people do like to see you. We all like to see.

1:55:25I like to see everybody too. That's the crazy part. And it's not, it's not about ego. It's just about hanging out with all these cool awesome people. Well, that's what I'm saying. And so you can whether you align with an organization or not, you can use that to their advantage. So rather than block yourself and your friends, you can block them. You don't have to, to attend anything officially, but just be there because that is where everyone is, is going. Yeah, no, I like that. So think about that because I've been to a lot of these events where you're at and people, people love it. They appreciate that you showed up. Yeah, no, I wish honestly, like, I don't know how to say it with humility, but people are like, oh, I wanted to say hi to you, but there was like a bunch of other people like talking to you and I didn't want to interrupt. And I'm like, well, those literally want people to off putting. Yeah, I want to meet everybody in here, like with all humility, just as one a pleb like just it's so much fun. I love it. That is the best part about any of these conferences. So then stop traveling with that, those red ropes and those guards. Like, if you get rid of those, people will come up to you, but it's very awesome. Yeah. No, and I think

1:56:28what Rench said to Sean is a good example of this, which is building unity, like together, divided, we fall. And I think when Sean and I who were rivals in this BIP 110 thing, we're able to realize that our relationship is more important and our friendship is more important than our disagreements regarding BIP 110. And we're able to just put that behind us. And you know, something happened with Sam where we said, you know, some foul words against each other. We're on the same team, man. We want Bitcoin to succeed. And, you know, we need to really grow up and, you know, be responsible adults and put the crap behind us to succeed in this mission. It really looks bad on us when we're out here like a bunch of, you know, teenage girls at Bandcamp throwing crap at each other in this big food fight. So I think it is time that, you know, change the narrative, make it positive, be bullish, be united, et cetera. And I think, yeah, you

1:57:28know, maybe I will attend. Also, just imagine when we win, right? Like imagine, like imagine when we win and it's all works out and it's worth millions per coin. We just remember bullshitting together and getting into these little tips and beefs on ex-paces when nobody knew what was going on. Like we'll just look back and laugh. Like everybody, you know what's crazy? House is there's a bunch of us that have already won, which it's weird because when I got into Bitcoin, I did it for NGU number go up because I wanted to get Fiat rich and that was just super alluring to me. And in a way, like when you're buying sub thousand dollar Bitcoin, you're winning because you're looking at your, you know, wealth denominated in Fiat and you're like, wow, I can change my lifestyle now because of Bitcoin. And so instead of gloting or anything else, it kind of changed me into like what's next? Like I don't care if I own four cars. Yeah, I like it, but whoopity doodah. It's not providing that it's not scratching that happiness itch or that why am I

1:58:35here itch or that whatever itch. It is saying like what's next, you know? And so I thought like one day I would be being in the on the soapbox in front of my family around a cap fire 10 years ago saying like you guys all need to buy Bitcoin. I thought, oh, good one day I'm going to glow and just be like, if you guys look at me, but that's not the way I feel. I don't even mention it anymore. I don't talk about it. I don't glow it. I don't say anything because my whole countenance has changed. I want to change the world now. I don't want to own a Lamborghini, you know? So I'm with you on one hand, but on the other hand, when 10 years passes and you know, we're out of million bucks, you'll probably have a different stance too. Like it's super weird. So there's a lot of winners here that are just kind of in the shadows, just kind of still participating in network still building behind the scenes, but their faces aren't out front and they're not gloting and they're not, you know, saying, you guys should have listened to me 10 years ago. So I hear you, but I think when 10 years passes,

1:59:37you'll feel a little bit differently. Yeah, you're probably right. And I think that's probably a good approach. Funny, one of the things I think about right is, you know, if this plays out the way I think it does, like, you know, everybody, you know, starts out as like a working person unless you like came from an inherited money and you know, your position does change and your status relative to them does change. And you know, hopefully, you know, if you as a person has become wealthy through this, you know, investment through this trade, through this belief, you know, if you go about it graciously, hopefully your friends that, you know, maybe didn't listen, you know, it doesn't really change your outlook towards you. But I do think about that. Like, how would that just like play with people that I've known since like high school or college when we're all just, you know, trying to make it happen? So they'll be interesting. Maybe I'll now, it's getting late in this, in this Bitcoin today, but maybe that's a subject for another day. It's like, how do you go about, you know, becoming a wealthy person, right? Because I think, you know, anybody's in this room that's allocating, it's been allocating at sub, you know, even a hundred K prices, that will be you eventually, right?

2:00:39It's like, yeah, we didn't get in sub 10,000 or sub 1000, but I think even the people that get in sub 100, thousand are still going to be very well off relative to a whole lot of other people. So it'll just be interesting to, you know, that be a conversation going forward. For sure. Paula. Hi, everyone. Hey, Paula. Can you hear me? Yeah. Paula. Feudar again. Yeah, I've enjoyed the discussion. Sorry, it was off. My sound was off for 20 minutes. I didn't hear what Lauren was saying, but oh, man, Polly, you missed the best part. Shoot. I'm good. I like, I like the end. Yeah, I got that fishing email and I thought, wow, it looks really real. And I put it in Claude and it told me right away, it said it's fake. I'm like, but how can it be fake? It's from Tracer. But yeah, that's a really important discussion. And yeah, I'm just here to listen and learn

2:01:45a little more. You know, I'll say this is even though we know to just delete all of these emails, as best practices, any legit company that's contacting you about something that they found out, they would they would clearly highlight, do not give us your words. Do not punch in your words anywhere. That would be one of the first things they would say. And they wouldn't have you click anything in the email. And I believe I believe any hacker can, I believe you can send any email and have and and make it look like you are the company. I believe you can still put, treasure.io or whatever in the reply to. So I don't know that that's the best way to try to judge these things. But I just say delete them. If you have your words, you have your words. But listen to the community and what people are saying here are next just like we did with cold card

2:02:47because we all found out. And then by the time you hear a dozen people saying, yeah, this is serious, you know, you can make a move. I just wanted to say one thing about the multi-six thing because sometimes I yes, I know multi-six important and you can have it and be on your own too and have a multi-six setup which for some people and me included, I like that idea better. I think it's easier to explain to is the simpler it is. So whenever I hear people say some people who had chad say that, I also, when I don't have kids but when you don't have that kind of air, I just do something about having a multi-six but being self-sovereign on my own that appeals to me.

2:03:49Yeah, absolutely. And I think as a lot of people have learned and started to think about, you know, it's not a one-all. I mean, you can have some ETF or some other vehicle and if you're, if someone's getting to that point, unless they're run over by a bus, you know, they can move things in different ways that will be easier for their airs. I think very few people just snap and you're gone and you want to plan for that but you also can. I think even along with that is if you're trying to be just 100% sovereign where you're trying to get all your Bitcoin that it's not KYC etc. When you are trying to just live your life and do things that, you know, you can't do with in the Bitcoin world, like buy a car or home or something like that, you're going to have to have a trail, a paper trail of where these resources came from. You can't do that in a lot of vehicles. And then as you age, you still want to have, you know, your income vehicle where it's like

2:04:51taking the place of your paycheck. So in order to do these things, these products kind of when we are living in a fiat world, these products kind of need to be taken advantage of. So I'm totally with Paulo on that one as well. And I think, you know, British really pounds the table hard on this one. I see he just jumped up here and then Elvis had his hand up first. So maybe we go Elvis and then British. Hey, good morning, everyone. Yeah, you can, I think you can send email from any from email address. You can emulate any email address and send it to anybody. And you can use any reply to as well in your message. So, yeah, never trust email coming to you. That should be a doesn't matter if it's from Trezo or anybody else. What's funny is I got an email today from Coinbase

2:05:53inviting me to talk to them over telegram. And I'm 99.9% sure this is actually legit. They're just disretarded to do this. And yeah, have a private telegram channel where I don't know they do shares execution and stuff like that. It sounds more and more scammy. Very, very scammy. What's going on, British? Hey, what's up guys? Good evening. Even a taxi right now if you can hear me. Yes. A bullish taxi. Bull taxis. Yeah, bull taxi of Dubai. We can't 100% have to be bold up. But I just wanted to actually

2:06:56uh, yeah, I need to, what you guys were mentioning about river, even Bob on the previous bases was mentioning that I need to do some reason. I don't think I can use them because not an American citizen. I don't know if I know that was true at one point, but I need to, I need to check them, check them out again based on what Dark was saying earlier. But yeah, look, you know, but you're a Bitcoin. Do you find comfortable? Apparently, that doesn't mean anything except uh, on spaces. So the real world still exists apparently. Dark side. Yeah, hey, just changing the subject for a quick minute. I was doing some work on tokenization of of stocks. I heard Robin Hood chain was just mentioned. Um, it's kind of really interesting. The way they've structured that those, those stocks allegedly, they're not really stocks,

2:07:59they're dead instruments. Right. So what you're really buying is a dead instrument that's one to one that by a share of the stock. So let's take Nvidia for example. So rather than owning Nvidia and having a vote in the company, you now own a dead instrument that obviously is tokenized on Robin Hood. Robin Hood owns Nvidia for you. And of course, like the ETFs, they take your vote. So it's really fascinating to me that Larry Fink is pushing for the tokenization of everything and tokenization of stocks. And where do we end up? We end up with a lack of sovereignty. You know, the whole purpose of being a shareholder in a company is that you actually have a vote in that company's future. Right. And this whole tokenization thing is really scary because you're now centralizing the control of that company to the tokenization company. And you give up

2:09:05your sovereignty. So all you have is exposure, but you don't have a vote in the company anymore. Same thing we've seen in the ETFs. So you know, it's like wherever we go in our society, we're trading our sovereignty for something else. In this case, it's for instance, settlement and ease of trade. But it's really scary to me, right. Like that's that's not a good end result from where I said, so I think, you know, we were talking about this the other day and then I went and did a bunch of homework on, okay, what is the tokenization thing? And it turns out it really is about gaining the votes and gaining control. Terrence. Is it that time? Is it about that time? Well, I tell me, I'm not very good at looking

2:10:09to your dog's eyes. Yeah, I don't. Yeah, it's got to go potty, doesn't it? I just wanted to say I'll take a deal. One wants to the midway. Yeah, go ahead. Wait, did everyone be to that or were you talking over? I talked over you, Paul. Sorry, could you please repeat that? Yeah, if anyone wants tickets, I also have two or three if you want a DM me. Beautiful. I got rid of my two. I think Sean got rid of one of his and Paul has got a couple, so let's go. Oh, how else scares me? All right, why don't you play us out, Lauren? Anybody have any closing remarks before we close this baby down? I have one. Yes, please. Why don't you close this out, Lauren? Okay.

2:11:14We didn't talk about the 10-year passing 4.9. That's pretty interesting. All over, boys. The world is going to end. I'm going to find a nice overpass right now. The world is going to end. It's just going to get burned up by the sun. We're going to cross five percent. That's why Elon wants to go to Mars. The world's going to end. I'm going to the dog food. It's quite edible. Dark. I prefer cat food. By tokenizing that, that's moist cat food. Dogling, protein content, human brain. Yeah, I think easy, peel, live, though. What else can we do to make the world end? How I do find, I do like the fact that dark is now using the word scary to demonstrate that he's operating from fear. I think that's important to clarify. I can't stand it all.

2:12:23Let's do a tournancy's favorite. Everything. Money, big moves, big boroughs, big suits, big big corn, big poops, big logos, big logos, big boobs, big corn, big poops, big, big corn, big poops, big, big, big corn. Big poops, big, big logos, big moves.