BIGFOOT AND MILO

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1:14There are in fact four different types of what we think of the Sasquatcher Bigfoot. Very wide, perhaps knows. There was also very ominous. The phase one is to identify opportunities. I walked into a small clearing in less than 10-15 feet away from this enormous creature and it scared the living hell out of me. Phase two is conducting investigations both of the witnesses and locations. The size of the thing it was, you know, four or five feet across the shoulders. Phase three is profiling research areas. What's there, how they move, feeding, things like that.

2:15About eight feet tall, I guessed around 800 pounds, it was massive. I had no idea that anything like that existed. Phase four is creed in intercept plan. I decided to shoot near to see if maybe it would scare it off. Phase five is the intercept and resolve the issue phase. It didn't do anything, didn't react. And then I heard a noise from my right rear and from out behind some rush, come another one to walk over by the first one. That's when I decided to do it. The dog did, I took off running. Welcome to Witness of the Unknown. Hello, everyone. Welcome to the weekly chat. The Brian and I do.

3:16We have my good buddy Milo Rodgers with us tonight. Milo, Brian, how you feel is doing? Great. I'm good. Yeah, I'm good. I'll accept for the computer issues, right? Yeah, pretty much. Well, Brian, what kind of, I understand you have a bunch of questions feet people have been sending. And I guess before we get started, you know, if anybody has questions, any question, you know, send them into Brian. Brian, you want to go ahead and give out your email address? Sure, it's just Orlando outsider at Yahoo.com. Just one word Orlando outsider at Yahoo.com. All right, well, let's go ahead and jump right in, fellas. Well, hey, since Milo's here, I thought it would be great to tell the listeners. I mean, I know the story from for me in the book. But why don't you, you two go ahead and I guess, retell the story of the Clark Ranch because that that was a pretty story.

4:17Because Milo was one of the four of us there. Yeah. Yeah, you remember you remember how we That's when we stayed the night right in the tent, right? Well, we had the tent out there, but we never got actually got in. Paul was the only one who got in the tent. Yeah, that's why man. Yeah. Well, anyway, that's we we had intentions of camping when we stayed up on my panicking and freaking out. Well, I know I remember, you know, and I've told us before, you know, we we were at school and it was after I had met John Green and Renee DeHendon. It was the fall of that year of 75 75 76 school year. And we sat around and I asked all the guys, you remember Milo, we all we all live so far apart from each other that, you know, somebody had to have heard something. We would take them. Yeah. In their area so we would take that bus.

5:17Yeah. So Paul's the one that spoke up and he said, well, the clerks had been hearing some weird noises out in their property and I said, well, can you get permission for us to go out there? And that was it. You know, we that's how remember our parents weren't going to shuttle us around. It was a matter of, you know, if you wanted to go do something, you had to ride that person's school bus to their house and then go from there. Yeah. So that's what four of us did. We took our packs to school and then we got to his place in Roy and then we we hiked the railroad tracks down to the clerks place. And they were, they were pretty cool about it from what I remember. They pointed out to the woods and they said, yeah, we've been hearing the screams out there. You guys are welcome to go out there and we headed out there and about the time it got dark. We figured we'd better set up camp and we had that old canvas cabin tent. And I don't, was that your tent my line? I don't remember who that belonged to.

6:20Yeah, I think it was mine. It was, you know, it's been so long and with everything, I'd just figure what it would be. You know, I can't remember anything right now. I mean, other than how much, how scared I was. Yeah, no doubt, no doubt. I'll never forget. I mean, the logistics side of it. I don't remember a lot just because of everything that's been flown past for the last 40 years. I know for myself, I, you know, I always, you always remember details about a lot of things. And I remember we hiked out there and figured, well, crap, it's getting dark. We better set up camp. And we found a little, right, um, stand a cedar trees. And if it looked like a really good place to camp. So we set up a tent there and and that'll tent. It was about six feet high and it didn't have a floor in it. That I remember that about that. And so we just kind of put all our junk in there. And we, we had, I can't remember. I think we just fixed, you know, pork and beans and hot dogs for dinner.

7:21You know, volatile mix for teenage boys. So we were sitting on a, and you remember, we sit around talking around the fire for a while and not much happened. Then all of a sudden, we started here in those screams. And and the one wasn't that far away. Maybe a couple hundred yards and there was another one. Maybe a quarter mile away that was responding back to it. And we're kind of scratching our heads, wondering for a while what the heck that was. You know, wasn't any noise that I was, I was familiar with. And oh, go ahead and go ahead. Oh, you know, what I remember of it was it was that you're talking to a total city boy here. So when I heard noises out there, I mean, this is one of basic, one of our first championships I ever did. Right. So, you know, coming from Long Beach, California to the woods, you know, and getting with people out and on your own kind of thing, you know, most parents know nothing is. Right. So, I mean, so there's a sense of excitement,

8:27a sense of, you know, a sense of just the scary thing going on in the back here, head, and then on your neck, the first hand line in, and when you hear one thing on one side of the camp, and you know, when I say that, I'm trying to describe it as, you know. Well, you remember all the tree frogs that were going, and then they would stop on the other side. And it was like, what the heck's going on? And I, you know, my thing was, is this normal stuff for camping? No, it wasn't normal. And we could tell after a while that whatever was out there was circling the camp, because the frogs would stop, let's see, on our right side. Then they'd stop in front of us. Right. They'd stop on the left side, and then it'd all go quiet for a while. And then maybe half hour, they'd start to, they'd see, hear a couple of them start up, then they would all start up.

9:28And then it would be kind of quiet for a while. And then at one point, then it was when, you know, the one individual that was with us decided he was tired, wanted to go to sleep, but the other three of us weren't tired, because we were kind of on the edge of our seat, you know, with the stuff that was going on. Like, yeah, I know what I was. I wasn't ready to go in and lay in the tent, and have something come in and make a sack lunch out of me. So, remember, we figured that two of us probably ought to stay up. All the time, and we just do it in shifts. So, you and I were partners, and I know you and I were both amped up, and we weren't going to sleep any time soon, probably for the next three days. But we told, that's how I felt. Yeah, me too. We told those guys, we'll go ahead and crash out for a couple of hours, and we'll just rotate, and the other guy didn't want to sleep. So, I'm kind of like, oh God, you know, it was the typical thing. Nobody wanted to go along with the plan. So, we told him just to go ahead and go in the tent,

10:28and it will figure it out. So, the three of us were sitting there. I was kneeling down on that one corner. You were sitting in front of the door, and we had the fire between, we were between the fire and the tent, and the other guy was, we'll call him Bob, was on the other side. And we heard, after what, we're just kind of talking quietly, whispering in a listening, and we heard this rustling going on. And we remember we were making jokes about what he might be doing in there by himself. Oh, yeah, that was the other thing. It was like, what is he doing in there? You know, I was going to say his name, but I won't, but... Well, I mean, you know, I'm making fun of you, but I remember that. Well, you know, I was, man, he's allowed in there, you know? I mean, for somebody that sits both, and it wasn't him. That was the freaky part. Well, I remember when he come running out of the front of the tent, and his hair was all messed, and his glass was hanging off his face,

11:30and he says, and he was pissed off, he says, it's not very damn funny, grabbing me while I'm... Yeah, yeah, I remember that. And we were all kind of looking at him, like, what the hell are you talking about? And I thought, I thought it'd be funny if one of us sort of thought of it, but we didn't think of it. Yeah, that's... Yeah, that was definitely what was like... I was like looking around, like, how the hell did one of us even get close enough... Did it leave? Did it go through something like that in the first place? No, it's from where I'll stay in it right here. Yeah, we were sitting there kind of pretty close to each other, talking, and, you know, nobody left. Left. And I thought, I said, no, wait a minute. You know, are you sure you weren't dreaming? And he says, no, I never went to sleep. I was laying here listening to you guys talk. And I said, all right. If you saw something, there has to be some kind of proof. And you remember how soft the ground was around there? And I said, well, let's have the flashlight, we'll take a look. And right behind right was kneeling down.

12:32There was like a bowl impression in the ground and the pine needles there. And then it's... For, like, the knees and stuff, yeah. And then we saw whatever... And we saw those tracks that had to be 18 inches long going back into the brush. And I'm like, what the hell? So I told him, I said, no, look. Tell us what happened. He says, well, something... He thought one of us was reaching under the tent to get something out of the packs. And I thought, well, why would we reach under the tent? We just go through the door and grab something. You know, maybe kick him on the way through or something, but... But we were pretty mean to each other. We have to admit that. So he, I said, look, it described me. He said, well, he fell to hand on his lower back. I said, all right. Now, he was... He was a big boy even back then. Way bigger than the three of us were. Yeah. And I said, okay, tell me from where the heel of this hand was to the end of the fingers. Where did it start on your body and stop?

13:32And he showed us that it was like a foot long. I said, do any of us have a hand that big? Well, no. Well, then it wasn't one of us. And then we found the footprints of stuff. So that definitely put us on alert. So this stuff kept going on for hours. And at one point, I remember we were pretty spooked. We were getting more spooked all the time. And you remember when all four of us were facing outward from all four directions from the fire. And your view is from the tent. You were watching the tent behind it. From the tent, yeah, from the fire towards the tent. Yeah. And you turned around it. And I was on the opposite side. You turned around to say something to me. And I didn't really look back at you. I kind of turned my head so I could hear. And then you turned back and all we heard was this, oh, shit. You must have jumped to feet in the air. And you said, this thing was standing right behind the tent. Just leering at you.

14:34Yeah, yeah. I definitely, oh, that was freaky. And the tent stood, now you got room, this tent was like seven feet high at least. It was six, seven feet high. With a phone in the middle. And that thing was like two feet above that, because you've done two, three feet higher than that. Yeah, John Adams actually drew a sketch from your description. And the sketch was pretty creepy. Well, for my point, you know, after, you know, I, it's going to be your old screw that now because of movies and just, you know, general, general, I don't know what you want to call folk or whatever. But, you know, when you see red eyes, that high up, something glowing. And now, like I said, you know, I'm from Long Beach, California. This was one of my first, very first camping trips I've ever did. And that's in the middle of the woods. Stuff is moving.

15:35Stuff is going from creepy to quiet there, you know. So, yeah, when I saw that, I thought I was about, I was going to die. And by the time the rest of us reacted, all it did was step back into the darkness. I mean, we didn't see it. Yeah, it turned to where it was like, what are you talking about? You know, it's like, you know, nothing to go like that. How does something in the middle of, you know, in a fire light when you're looking and reflective eye stuff, you know, where the red, you know, it was just glowing. You know, I don't want to say that it was red or orange, but it was just, it had a reflective eye. And it just, it just messed my head up. Oh, yeah, no doubt, no doubt. And for that, the whole night, I know for that whole night, I was trying to find logs to burn the whole rest of the night. That's all I know.

16:36I didn't care if I started a forest fire or not. We had the proverbial fire you could see from space. And the bad part was we had one flashlight and the batteries were just horrible. They were, they were no good in it. So, we couldn't go very far for firewood just to the edge of the fire light. And I think about, it was close to 5am when we couldn't get any more wood. And we were exhausted. I mean, this had been going on for hours, all through the night. And we were exhausted, sleepy. And there was a big, I think it was a spruce log laying there next to the camp. And we finally, we had our machetes and we, we sat down shoulder to shoulder. And we figured if anything was going to attack us, we'd, we'd defend ourselves with machetes, but we all fell asleep. And I remember, we couldn't have slept very long because it was daylight, I think, in another, maybe an hour. And I remember waking up, and it spooked me when I woke up.

17:36I was scared because I thought, oh my god, we fell asleep and we could have, we could be attacked any second. And I woke you guys up when we packed up quick and got the hell out of there. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it was, I know. Yeah, I was definitely put me on my first, my first encounter. Absolutely. Yeah. You know, so, and, well, you know, I mean, the cool part was, I had, I had other people there that, you know, was really supportive where we, we, we would actually talk about it and say, you know, did you actually feel that way? Yes, I did. This is how we feel. And I feel that way now. I mean, it does bring back memories of it now, even clear. We all, we all knew what happened. I mean, it was, it was a crazy night. It was scary. Yeah. Hey, that would make for a good scene. If, um, um, remember, if any agents are out there,

18:37remember, we have a screenplay that includes this story. And it, that would be a great, um, movie. Yeah, my, you know, Brian, Brian wrote a screenplay based on my second book. Yeah, cool. Yeah, that's excellent. Yeah, is that the, that's the one, is that the one with the, uh, the drop of the gear stuff? The mom say no in the story. Oh, well, that's what I was going to ask you guys about it. I'll tell you what, that was hilarious. That was hilarious. Oh, my God. When you guys did that, were you hoping to actually find the site of the 1924, or were you just kind of going there? No, we know. I can see you know, actually, I think it was a little bit of both because everything that I was excited, because I mean, we were just about to join the army and, you know, and, well, you know, you and I had already signed it. You know, with the day we left, yeah, Scott was the last one that signed up.

19:38Yeah, that night, that day that we actually left to go. Yeah, let me, let me back up just a bit. When, yeah, after I met Green and Hendon, and we'd, I think we'd already, yeah, we'd already had the experience out of the Clark Ranch, um, I got a phone call from a college student in Portland, Oregon, and he had talked to John Green, and Green had referred him to me because I had seen two of these things. So, and he was writing some kind of a paper. So I, you know, I told him what I saw, and, uh, and then we got talking afterwards, and he says, well, if you've ever been to the site of the 1924 miners attack at Mount St. Helens, I said, well, I'd, I'd hunted, you know, elk and Mount, or on Mount St. Helens, my dad, but I hadn't really done much in the area and never been to that place. So he says, you ought to go. We, we were there a short time ago, and he gave me instructions how to find the place. So that was, that was the basis of the trip, was to go there to that, to that location. Well, are you talking about the guy named Travis?

20:40That was his name, Travis, the, the, the, the guy that called you? I, I have no idea to be honest. I, I probably forgot his name two minutes after he told me when I talked to him. Oh, okay. Yeah. I may have inserted that name, um, just as, uh, you probably, yeah, I, yeah, I don't remember his name, but he told us how to get there, and, and so we planned the trip and, and went, and, and it was from the first minute. It was just craziness. Now we did find a line of tracks there the first night up there, but I mean, the rest of the trip was just, it was just craziness. Nothing, nothing bad, except for, you know, Paul and Milo almost blowing themselves up. The last morning. No, no, I didn't have no part of none of that. No, you got, you just got, I was ignorant. You just got caught up in it. I was ignorant. I didn't know what the hell he was doing. I didn't even know what that was until it happened. And for listeners, I, that may, I haven't heard the, the story.

21:42We went down there and, and our friends got six of us went. And, uh, he borrowed his dad's brand spanking new Volkswagen van. And so we all, you know, took, took a few days off, headed down there. And, um, we, we stopped the first day. We stopped. It was Castle Rock at a safe way. Three of us took a shopping cart, went one way, three took a shopping cart, went the other way. And there was no rhyme or reason to all the crap that we bought. Both shopping carts are full. I mean, a canned food on kinds of junk. No clue about how we're going to carry this stuff anywhere. And we had the cabin tent in there and, and white gas and all kinds of stuff. So we, we got, we got all the way out to, um, um, spirit lake. And, and of course, this was November of 76. So, um, it was cold and windy and we got there at night. And we decided, well, we'll set up camping and we'll go from there the next day.

22:45So we tried, and across the lake, there was a big, well, I think it must have been a parking lot. It was about five acres in size. It was huge. So we could, you know, overlook thing. Yeah, it was a big black top pad. And we went to the far side of it. Well, it was too windy to, you know, fire, even a fire going. So, you know, we're all 17, 18 year old board as hell. And we eventually decided to go for a walk because it was bright moon night. You could see really well. And we, we found this cool little slope and we ended up, we figured out we could slide on pumice on our butts. It was like snow. And we, we, we climbed back up the hill and, and we slide back down. And we, until we wore the seat of all of our pants out, we had bare butts hanging out into the wind. We figured we better go back to the van and change our pants. So we get all the way back to the van and Scott, we pulled all of our money and everything was Scott for gas and food and everything. And he had the keys and it was gone.

23:47So we're like screwed. We're locked out of the van. Our butts are hanging out in the wind and we can't get in. So we figured we better, we have to go back up to where we were sliding. And, you know, the pumice was like a couple of feet deep. You know, we're, but we did, we did find all the stuff. I get, I don't know if Scott took it out of his pocket, set it down neatly or what happened, but it was right at the, the place we were setting down a slide down the hill. And that's about during that time when we were looking for the keys in the wallet is when we came across those tracks. And they were, they were 18, 19 inch tracks. They went, you could see them going forever up this ridge. So that's, that was the only, that was the only, you know, thing that came out of the trip that was good. I took, we, Scott took pictures. I sent him to John Green and he says, oh, yeah, those are, those are pretty good tracks. We get back to the van and of course, again, we're bored. And we do, we're always doing craft to each other, nonstop. And this typical teenage stuff, we get back there. And you remember, there was one point.

24:50Well, I get, the trip down was, was crazy too, because I was up front navigating. Scott was driving. I think you and you and what's his face were in the middle and Kirk and Brian were in the back. And at some point on I five, he pulls out this can of beanie weenies from the Korean War. And he'd open them and they were coming out of the can on their own. And he says, do you think I should eat these? I said, get rid of them before they, before they attack us. I wish you would have ain't that. So yeah, in the middle of I five, he's poised ready to chuck this stuff out the window. And Scott glanced up and sees there's a state trooper behind us. And he said that and everybody goes, and Scott goes, no, and it, all these arms reach out and grab him and just freeze him. He's in this pitching mode. And I mean, it was just insane.

25:50We headed up the next day up to windy pass. And there was this trail and it went. I don't know how far do you think that was a mile or more up that trail? Well, you mean the hike itself? Yeah. When we went up to the pass, yeah, two and a half. It was, it was a long hike up that rubbed to that ridge, rubbed that ridge to the pass. Yeah, so we dropped this stuff. We figured that we were going to have to make two trips. And we see this, how long this is. And that's just to the pass. So we have to go around the planes of Abraham to get to the site where the cabin was. And I remember me and Brian had gotten up to the pass first. And so we figured, well, we're just going to, and it was a little just opening through the rock as all it was real small. So we're sitting there, you know, catching your breath waiting for everybody to catch up. And then here, you come. And you were mad as hell.

26:54And we couldn't understand the thing that was saying. It was like, I'm going to get here and it was. Remember me dropped my gear and me and Brian were looking at each other. We're like, my little English. What happened? And he goes, all done. So, and so, dropped all of these crowd. And Brian says, did you tell him to pick it up? You look like 70 slapped you. You held your finger and said, I'll be right back. We just kind of looked at each other like, what the heck? So you were back like in five minutes, matter than the first time. And Brian's like, Milo, English, slow down, what happened? It's all dumb, so and so. Watch stood there and watch the stuff rolled down the hill and everything came out of the pack and put it all over the slope. And I'm just like, oh God, I said just turn to pick up

27:55what he can reach and let's get going. We got to go back again and get the rest of the stuff before it gets dark. Well, you know, we just have to go back and get to clean it. Yeah, and the fun and everything. So we finished the hike. We hiked another, I know, a couple of miles past the planes we ran, we rented a group of guys on horseback that we're hunting and we told the other three guys, you three, you know, you collect fish with our stuff. Stay with the stuff, collect firewood, we're gonna go back and get the tent and the food. So you and me and Brian went back. And we didn't really pay much attention to it going by the stuff down the hills. When we carried this stuff up, we stopped at that spot and you said, this is where, you know, dummy dropped all of his gear. And that was it, that was his signature saying, everywhere we go, good stuff. I dropped my gear, you know, and in Kirk and everybody would make fun of him they parody him. So we go over to look to see what he had in his pack.

28:58Now we packed for cold weather and being out camping and stuff. Now, you got to picture this guy. He's kind of doofy looking anyway with glasses and he's wearing a long trench coat and an army steel helmet. World War II steel helmet. The rest of us are dressed for hiking and camping. He's dressed like this. So we go over to look at his pack. What's there? There were three items. Baseball cards. Baseball cards, plastic ship models, and long underwear. That was it. In abundance, all three items. And I'm just, I'm holding my head thinking I'm gonna have a stroke anytime because all this stupid crap. And I just thought, I'm not picking any of this crap up here. If he wants it, he can get it on the way out. So we picked up and went and we got everything set up and it was, it was just kind of mayhem. I remember the first night up there,

30:00the guy as the college students had cut these poles and tied them with twine between the trees to sit on it. Yeah, yeah, I remember that. We cooked our dinner and I sat down on a rock. The one or two rocks that was there. And Scott come over and sit down next to me. And he didn't say a word. He's holding his plate and he's kept. He kind of looks at me. He looks over at that and where he was sitting then he gets up and he walks away. Well then Brian comes over and sits down in the spot where he was sitting. He was sitting on one of these things. And Scott had taken a lot of crap from us. And he finally, I think he broke because he come over with a hatchet. And all you heard was this thwack and over Brian went feet up in the air, plate went flying in the air. And you go, Scotch, they're one of us now. Oh, that was cool. And I mean, that was excellent. The whole trip was like that. Then the last morning we were there at snowed.

31:02We woke up to it snowing pretty heavy on the ground. And I said, well, we better get some firewood. Get dried out before we pack up and get out of here. We need to get out of here before we get snowed in. So all of us went except for you and dingling. And I guess the one thing he didn't have in his pack was I think two pounds of black powder had it in his pocket. Yeah. So because we had the fire so long it was just a really thick bed of hot coals. And I think you were blowing on them. And dummy was behind you standing up pouring gunpowder on the hot coals. So the rest of us, the other four of us, we come walking in through the trees with our arms full of firewood. And instantly we recognized what it was. And we looked at each other and we started backing up. And all of a sudden it goes, gosh. Was this huge cloud of ash and couldn't see you guys. And all I could hear was my little coughing. When the ash cloud cleared, you were still in the position.

32:06You're at squatted down, but your facial hair and eyebrows were singed off. And dummy was standing there coughing. After we won, I was going to kill it, boys. I was going to knock him out. After we figured out you guys were OK, we just busted up laughing. It was hilarious. Not funny, man. Not funny. Not funny. Not for you. You know, that was the thing. I didn't know what he was doing, you know? I mean, it was like, oh, God, yeah. I was alerting there. I would have fed him to Bigfoot myself. He was stupid and a lot of things. Yeah, that was one of my grown-up periods where I started realized I am totally ignorant to all this stuff, boy. I did not know what that was. Well, but actually afterwards, you know, I started a pack better.

33:07I started to put my stuff together. Oh, yeah. I made sure, you know, everything was like in plastic bags to almost two or three of everything there, boy. No, you were interesting. You actually did pretty good. Yeah, I mean, well, the other part to that is, I mean, I didn't know what Black powder was. No, I didn't know what he was doing because he was behind me when he was doing it. You know, I'm going to put Black powder in his. You know, I thought I would just keep on blowing on a fire. I don't know what he was thinking it was going to do. Oh, well, brand you. I think he should have realized what I was going to do to him after it had happened. And that's what he should have been thinking. There were some things I didn't put in the book, you know, I kind of left somebody on his own. I mean, like, you were chasing him around. I won't go into that. That was just, that's between us, our own jokes,

34:08the inside stuff, but that was so funny when you were chasing through the camp that, when they were all sitting there just watching. They went this way. They went that way. They went this way. They went in Paul runs of the tent. Paul, I thought, oh, bad move. My look comes up. He looks at us in the firelight. When he goes his eyebrows up and down, he goes, oh, Paulie. He's in the tent they go. And you hear this? This ruckus, I almost tore the tent down. Paul comes out looking totally disheveled and my look him out says, oh, Paulie, that was the best effort. It was literally anything we could do to embarrass each other is what we did. Oh, my God. We were tears. We had a lot of fun. I mean, yeah, yeah. So we had so much fun. Yeah, no, also just to clarify for the listeners, when you were talking about Bryant, that was a different Bryant.

35:09That wasn't me just in case anybody was confused. Yeah, there was about 10 of us in our group in last couple of years of high school. And there were, I don't know, six or seven of us that hung out pretty closely together. There's actually what I did a lot of these things. So, yeah, Bryant was one of the guys. Bryant and Kirk, and there was, let's see. Scott. There was Scott, Paul, you and me on that trip. Yeah. Cool. Well, we have some good questions from Tim again. I think he has some from from last time too, but he's got a few of them that are pretty interesting. The first one he has is, if a big foot is ever recognized officially as a creature, will there be a public demand for gun manufacturers to develop a certain caliber fire arm powerful enough to kill creatures of the size? You know, for that could be the market for,

36:09I don't know, campers, hikers who might run into these creatures and they might need that extra fire power, I guess. I think it really depends on a number of factors. One being, we know what public sentiment is. Once they find out everything they need to about these things and their behaviors towards people. So, it could be, but then again, it may not be a, it's really, that's a really kind of an up and air question. It depends on a lot of factors. Right, right. I think if they were to prove themselves to be, you know, violent where everybody knew that, then there would be. But if that's not the case, then it wouldn't be. Right, because one of the common things that we hear from witnesses is that, you know, I had a gun in my hand, but that wasn't going to kill it. Unless you shot in the face, maybe. Well, I can sympathize with that. I had a 22 in my hands when I ran into that one and then the other one, the other one, the other was smaller, but it still wasn't small enough that I would have to be a pretty high-power rifle to do anything

37:11and then you'd have to be hitting him in the right place. Yeah, yeah. Also, he asks, now this one, I'm not sure if you remember this, but you remember there was a case in the 70s from Bishop, California. There was a campground that got destroyed and somebody went in there and then there were agents that stopped the guy and they questioned him for like seven or eight hours. Has anything ever come from that since that? No, and since you brought that up, I want to mention real quickly that every week, we have, I mentioned last time, Jim Soar, who's been narrating stories for me, some of the classic ones and what we're going to be doing a whole bunch of them, but so for everybody listening when we're done with the show, stay tuned. I'm going to add that particular story to this when Jim read that one a few days ago, so I'm going to go ahead and add that one on to this show.

38:13But yeah, nothing ever came out of it that I'm aware of. Well, that was for Tudas that I asked, I had no idea. It was, it was great. I was thinking, oh, which one am I going to add to the show this time? So that's a great one. Yeah. And he also asked, or Tim also asked if, or he wants to do to, I guess it's a really funny story, but he wants you to retell the story about encountering some arrogant biologists from Seattle one night. And you told them, he says that you're on location, monitoring the creatures and these biologists show up and they want to climb up the mountain to research and then you suggest, hey, go there and then go there anyways and then our scene later fling. This was, this was the occult thing when I was going on, probably sometime in 1989 that summer. What we would do is we'd go up there almost daily in the evenings and just kind of listen and watch what was going on. So my friends Don and Carol were there from Portland. I showed up and we were waiting for one other person

39:18and Milo was a backtrack real quick there. Milo was one of the original people of the original PCSIT and these folks were the next generation of that organization. We recreated it in Vancouver, but anyway, we were waiting for one other person to show up. So we were standing here talking quietly right at dusk and we see this car coming from the direction of the occult and I'm thinking, oh, that must be Ron. He's coming up, Ron Medler. So as the car got close to us where we could see what it was and it was still just daylighting up to make out, you know, the colors and things like that. This man, this Porsche pulls up and man a woman get out and they grab their little day packs and they're heading for the barboard offense that goes up the slope, the ridge to where these creatures were coming down every day. And I said, I wouldn't go up there if I were you. And the guy turned and I said, that's all right, I'm a biologist, I know what I'm doing. I just kind of said, okay.

40:20They climbed the fence up the hill they go. I looked at Don and Carol and I said, I'll be back in about 20 minutes. So we were standing there just kind of chitchatting and I'm thinking, well, crap, they've ruined, you know, whatever might have gone on tonight and I was thinking about leaving. And pretty soon we happen to see light from the direction they went and these flashlights are just bobbing furiously coming down the hill. They were running like hell and they get to the fence. They throw their stuff over the fence, you know, the guy, both of them just practically killed themselves trying to climb over this five foot barbed wire fence. The guy jumps into the car, fires it up. The woman is hanging with the door open half way out the car as he's spinning around or taking off. So will have you ever gone to any of these conferences or I know that they have one every year in Washington or something? No, I've had people occasionally say, well, you should go, but, you know, I'm just not,

41:22I don't see the point of it. Yeah. Yeah, it is, they do seem a lot of, a lot of times just to be, you know, ridiculous. But I mean, I don't know. I, you know, they, they did these things a couple of many years ago where John Green and Grovercrantz and all these kind of guys kind of did these things. See, a lot of people don't understand the reason some of these things were done in the very beginning. And that was to get some kind of legitimacy to get the scientific community involved, things like that. And it's the reason they only did a couple of them. Then everybody, you know, the amateurs decided to go out and there were no professionals, but there are people that are a lot more amateur than what say, you know, Green and those guys were Grovercrantz. They didn't quite understand what the point of that was. It's not, not a little, I can't think of the term, I'm looking for it, but it's not, you know.

42:24You're the man. In scientific circles like, like, in colleges, for example, when I was taking anthropology, anthropologists would, you know, would do research and they'd have a forum where they would present papers, you know, for peer review and things like that to advance the field. And I think at some point, some of these people think that's what these are doing and they're not. I mean, it's not really furthering this at all, because I mean, you get people up there, speakers who really don't know what the heck they're talking about. Yeah, it's really a circus almost. Yeah, I mean, I just don't feel like, I just don't have any desire to do anything like that. I mean, we did our own get together and it wasn't anything like that. It was a pot, we called it the second annual Bigfoot Barbecue and Potluck. The whole point of it was to collect information from local people in the area. And what we did was we put on entertainment,

43:27we provided the food, part of the foods. The people in the campground provided the potluck part and it was an overwhelming success. René de Henan came down to the slide show and it was a huge success. We had several thousand people that came in there. Dehenden made the comment that nothing had ever been done like that in a subject and even to this day. None of these gatherings get that many people. Right, and I get the feeling, now I'm just kind of speculating here, but it seems to me that if you go to these conferences, you'll probably have a bunch of people that show up in Bigfoot costumes. It's probably like the Star Wars movies where the opening night people show up and all the characters and they have lightsabers and things like that. It's kind of a big joke. Or like Star Trek, the Trekkies and their conventions. And that's all fine and well. I don't certainly want to get in trouble with it folks, but I think it's the Bigfoot version of one of those kinds of things.

44:29It's more of a social thing. The comic card is Bigfoot. Right, I mean, again, to me I kind of scratched my head and think, well, what's the point? Yeah. And speaking of academic articles that are legit, I came across one and I forgot, you know what, my Chrome froze on me, so I lost the exact journal that it came from. But anyways, though, this article stated that if you look at Sasquatch footprints compared to human footprints, I mean, obviously they're bigger, right? Everybody's there. But also though, not only that, but the tracks that they find, and I guess you can verify this, but they say that the tracks that you find are, if you take the length of them, and you take, let's just say, let's just take like a juvenile Sasquatch that has a foot length of eight inches, and you take a regular human that has a foot length of eight inches, adult human.

45:32And so they had the same footprint or terms of length, but the Sasquatch will be significantly wider though. So I'm not explaining it right. Like the height or the length with ratio is a little bit different. They have a wider feet addition. Yeah, and there are other details that are different also, but yeah, I mean, there's a marked difference between the two of the same size. Right, right. And the other thing too, is that they say that the Sasquatch footprints have two balls under feet, is that correct? Well, what it used to be, and this was described in John Green's books, and I don't know who coined it, Green probably did, they called it the double ball. And what it was was where the ball of the foot would be, there was the appearance, and it was, it's a crease that gives the appearance of two balls of the foot,

46:32and instead of just one like we have. Oh, okay. And again, I think that's just a wrinkle, probably caused by some kind of underlying structure that's a little bit different than ours. Yeah, yeah. Actually, we're gonna have, and it's a good point for me to mention this. And the next couple of weeks we're gonna have, we mention our good friend, it's the forensic anthropologist. We're gonna have him on the show. And so if anybody's got questions, from an anthropologist, a point of view, definitely gonna hold a brine with those questions because he will be more than happy and capable of answering those questions. But things like the double ball of the foot. And you mentioned, while we're on footprints, do you remember the photographs, I should send these to you too, Milo. There was, there was the footprints I told you that were probably fake. And now in this picture,

47:34the folks, if you picture that the footprints are ones in front of the other one, but they're almost side by side. It's in a walking pattern that would be very unusual to walk like that. And there were a number of things, the toes are too small for the overall foot size. And someone I know who's Native American said that they were laid down and wrong and a bunch of features were really, they look great on the surface. Then when you start looking at the details, you find out quickly that there's a lot, a lot wrong with them. And then I sent you also the pictures from White Pass. I think there's maybe half inch or inch of snow on White Pass on the highway. And this line of tracks is going right across the road. And he took up from two different angles. So you can see how in real Sasquatch tracks we talked about this being in a straight line. And the footprints almost, you can see where the toes are actually pointed inward, almost like what would be considered

48:36where we used to be called Pigeon Toad. Pigeon Toad, yeah. And there's quite a bit of distance between each track. There's quite a gate there. And when you look at those prints, and that's a legitimate set of tracks. Those are real. It's very easy to point out fake things when people hoax tracks. I mean, there's a line of tracks for one thing in the snow with nothing in the snow other than those footprints going from one side of the road to the other. Where these other, this other footprint photograph are just the two prints and they're very, it's very close in one spot. So it can be easily hoaxed because you don't see a line of tracks coming up to this point when you should. When are that clear? Right, right. And Will, I know that we're almost at a time. So that's fine. We have more questions to get to. We're still good. We still got about 13 minutes. Oh, okay, okay. Well, for some reason it paused the recording did.

49:37So I don't know how long it was paused. I hope we didn't miss too much good stuff in there. Yeah, yeah. But also while we're on academic articles, this one I might actually save for next week because I just found an article from the Scientific American, which is not necessarily a peer reviewed scholarly journal, but it's still an academic journal. And there's an interesting article where the author says he wants to believe in the subject, but he lists some reasons why he doesn't. But you can easily refute these. And I just want to get your take on it, but we can kind of go through that article next week. But that being said, too though, another academic article I found talked about how, okay, now this is kind of interesting. And it might be hard to connect the dots at first, but they claim that one of the reasons why the topic of Sasquatch isn't taken seriously,

50:40its scientific circles is actually indirectly tied to racism because when they first came up with the term Sasquatch, when it was first introduced, it came from Indian stories. And at that time, you know, 1920s or whatever it was when they came up with the term, a lot of people didn't take Indian stories seriously, and of course there were some of them, the stories were supernatural and so forth, but it's a kind of intriguing theory that maybe one of the reasons why the topic has never been treated seriously from the start is just because it came from Indian stories and not so much from other peoples. I actually have my doubts about that kind of a theory and here's why because Indian accounts weren't really sighted very much. A lot of the stories came from just farmers and people out in their areas. I mean, from way back we're talking a couple hundred years,

51:41I think it was more along, and I can sympathize with this, you know, when you find something, you come back to your family and it's just so incredible to them, they say, oh, that's crap, you're full of baloney. They make funny. It's easier to make fun of somebody over something like that than it is to say, oh, well, maybe I don't know anything about what's going on around me and these things are out there. You know what I mean? Yeah. I think it's more about an attack on people's belief systems about the world that they are confident in around themselves. When you throw this in there, it kind of, it makes them question their reality. And it's easier to toss that out than it is to question their reality. Yeah. Have you ever heard of a book by a guy in Thomas Kuhn called The Structure of Scientific Revolution? I think it's called, it's a famous book in science classes, like scientific circles.

52:41I don't think so. But anyways, yeah, no, he talks about how, and it's been a long time since I read it for several years, but he talks about how, kind of like what you were just saying about how people have this belief that, oh, this can't be true or the earth is flat and anybody that might challenge it has to be crazy and so forth. And it takes a long time, sometimes, for scientific discoveries to evolve and take place because a lot of people just don't want to believe it or just simply can't believe it at first. Right. I think, you know, we like to think that we're so enlightened and open-minded and all the stuff and we aren't. Right. For the most part, I mean, there's a very finite construct that we put around ourselves, you know, in current terms, our beliefs and what we're willing to accept. And if something challenges that, especially the more radical challenge, the less likely we are to even look at that, we're just going to flat, you know, dismiss it

53:43and not consider it. Right. I think we are very rigid and stubborn by nature, basically. And the same points, true, when it comes to people thinking about these things, you know, we're so hung up on ourselves, you have to get out of your own mind and when considering the science watch and think about it in terms of it's living, you know, day to day and the things that needs to do and, you know, the fact that it's got a different structure and all these factors to even wrap your head around what these things are and how they do things. You have to get away from yourself. And most people want to put their own, you know, beliefs and such onto these things, you know, from a homo-centric view and all that, that it's self-defeating. Yeah. And even to take that a little bit further, I would even argue that it's not just that people

54:44have encounters and they tell their friends, their neighbors, their family and their family members and their neighbors and their friends say, oh, you've got to be crazy. It's not even so, it's that's part of it too. But I think that it makes you wonder how many witnesses are out there that have had encounters that they convince themselves, oh, what I saw cannot be true. That must have been a bear. That's a good point. I'm sure. And sometimes, you know, lately I've heard from a lot of people who will tell me they've told only two people, you know, good friends usually. One person will be very sympathetic and listen to him and, you know, accept what they're saying while the other person totally denies it. I think that's a, that's kind of an interesting cross section. Yeah. Milo, is that how you maybe felt at first when you've had that encounter at the Clark Rancher? I was excited. So I mean, a lot of my stuff is just enhanced now.

55:47I mean, in a subdued way, I just do it. Because I've been away from doing it for a long time. So a lot of stuff I do now, it's just paperwork. So that kind of thing back then, it just, it just, wow, there is real stuff out there that I have no idea to even live. So yeah, it's crazy. You know, it was probably easier for you, Milo, to deal with a situation like that. Coming from being a city kid, then it would be somebody like I was, you know, who grew up out in the woods and hunting and all that kind of stuff. And news, what I thought, I knew everything. Right. I think it was probably less of a stretch of the imagination for you to come to terms with that than to say it would be somebody like I was. Oh, definitely. I mean, for me, as like, I'm gonna try to say this slowly in Milo language,

56:48is the fact that I, coming up the way I did, I had no idea. I mean, I didn't know what part of a gun shot and what bullets came out of. So when I was camping with Bill and everybody, you know, I was way behind the eight ball, you know, my learning curve was substantial. Where when I went out with these guys and I saw stuff for the first time, you know, I looked at Bill as, you know, he was my mentor. And when I, is this really happening? Is this really happening? I'm really excited, you know, but at the same time, it was like, I had to do more research on it. And now that I had the time, because when I was in the army, I didn't have time to do nothing. I mean, I was away from everybody. So now, I mean, I'm reading up on stuff where it's more at my own speed,

57:50where all that was happening so fast, I cannot do that. You know, you made me think of something that was funny. Back, I don't know, that's good, because I'm good at that. I don't, I don't, I don't remember what grade room free were sophomores in high school or what, when you and I first got to be friends, I was doing, I did a paper for a class and I happened to do it on the giant, on the giant, on the giant, on the giant, on the giant. So I was, remember I did it on the giant of Pithicus and you told me, you thought, what is this, some kind of a net? It's like really, because I remember one thing you, you know, it's like, you said, shotgun does this and if you should, you know, shotguns over the lake and to keep on going, because the bounce is not possible, I'm like, man, these dudes, these dudes in this school are crazy, man. But you know, that's starting to happen, I mean, you know, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean,

58:52I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, but you know, that started it, because then it just made me inquisitive and just wanted to know more. Yeah, it did. You know, and that, and that's where we started to hang out and became really close friends until, I mean, with Junior, I mean, now we're going on what, 50 years or longer. Yeah, it's gotta be, oh, yeah, it's gotta be around 50, pretty close to 50 years. Yeah. I just found that article that was looking at that got me really going into the whole thing about how people report missing stuff and making you, it's about, you see, January, a, let me see, where is this? Missing Hiker, James Griffin found that in National Park. A 60 Washington State Hiker reported missing on Christmas Eve, have been found dead in a steep dense forest of terrain

59:53in the Olympic National Park. It'd be nice to read this, or. Why don't we read it? Why don't we cover that the next time we do this? We'll plan it. We'll plan it. Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because we're, we are running a little shorter time. We got a couple of minutes left. But well, for this time around and fellas, either one of you have any final thoughts? No, well, actually, oh, just, I just want to say to Tim, who might be listening, if, if the part that got cut off, if we didn't get to your questions, we'll definitely get to him next week. But we did get to him, it's just that the recording may have temporarily cut off. Yeah, and we can always recap some of those. Yeah. Yeah. Milo, any thoughts, Milo? Well, you know, if I'd be more prepared next time, because I mean, it took a while just to even get my computer going, it was like, oh my God.

1:00:54You know, that's actually a great topic. I think we should do that maybe in a, we'll plan for a couple of weeks. And we'll do that again if you want to do it. Okay. Yeah, I'll have, you know, tell me, you know, I'll do like missing campers and then the report. And the things to watch out for when people are talking about reporting, you know, when you get the official statement of what's going on and it's like, well, that's, you know, now that I'm not as ignorant about hiking is when people say that a, or this hiker did this, well, that's impossible because I've done that, you know, how, you know, so that's the kind of things I'm looking at now, compared to when we were at Clark Ranch. Oh, yeah, yeah, big difference. You know, that's, you know, because now when you look at stuff when you report it and you read about it or you hear things about it, it's like, you know what, somebody's either blowing smoke up, somebody's wearing it

1:01:56or it's just really vague word, people really don't know. Right, right. Or they want to say, but they can't. And that's another thing too. Right, that's another whole area. So yeah, I'll have a lot of this going on and then I'll have it more prepared. All right, fellas, well, listen, we'll wrap up for this episode then and Milo, I'll get ahold of you and we'll set a date. I'm thinking probably the week after we have our anthropologist on. OK. And we can actually record any time, but, you know, we'll get it set up for as soon as you get your notes together then we'll go ahead and set it up, OK? Absolutely. All right. Alrighty then. Brian Milo, you guys have a great night. Yep, you too. Thank you, you too. Might be able to do the old days back in the blind. The blab day up.

1:02:56No, the old days. Yes, the old days are, that's why they call them the old days. They're some of these they always come back. All right. All right, fellas, you have a good night. OK, goodbye. This story comes to us through the courtesy of Bigfoot Researcher and Author, William Jemning, narrated by Jim Soar. This story is from Rich Rumley, who was the director of the California Bigfoot organization. In 1980 through 1981, I was working as a security guard on a high-tension tower project here in California. I met a man who was a cat scanner operating a bulldozer, leveling off the pads for each of these high-tension towers was to be placed. I noted he had on his pickup truck 25 to 30 decals from places he had been hunting and introduced myself. During the conversation, I mentioned Bigfoot.

1:03:59And he told me that in the mid to late 1970s, he was doing a little poaching with forestry officials permission in a locked and gated area near Bishop California. They had given him a key so he could go in any time he wanted. This particular time, the gate was still locked, as it always was. He let himself in with his four-wheel drive pickup to the area known as four points. He drove over a hill and there to his surprise were department of the interior vehicles and bureau of land management men all in their smoky the bear outfits with guns, searching a campground, the hills, mountains, roads, et cetera. They grabbed this hunter, took his dear rifle away from him and questioned him for seven to eight hours as to what he was doing there. The local forestry officials identified him

1:04:59as a trusted friend and he was like, oh, but told to never come back. He had determined during his interrogation that the reason the BLM and department of interior were there in force was that a Bigfoot creature had gone through there the day before and had turned over a large trash container of the type you find behind large department stores, dumpsters, that no man can even begin to move and had killed several people. Over the years, the story was passed through several people. In fact, quite a few Bigfoot researchers, but no one was able to come up with one single clue. Then, in early to middle 1991, a young student also interested in investigating the Bigfoot mystery called the CFBO's hotline to tell me

1:05:59that he had heard that story several years ago and it had always stuck with him. He went on to relate that when he was doing some Bigfoot research in the town of Bishop, California, Inyo County, 1989 through 90, he met a former policeman who said he was on the Bishop Police Force in the mid to late 1970s. The student related the foregoing story of Bigfoot to the ex-police officer from Bishop and he confirmed it. The officer said the story was the talk of the law enforcement agencies in that area at the time, but they were under very tight orders, not to say anything about the incident and the related deaths. Richard Brumley lived from 1935 to 2000. Thanks everyone for joining me this week. You should tune in again next week as we explore another account from a witness of the unknown.

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