Better questions = Better Builds with Georgia Jackson

0:00There's always the need to be challenges no matter where you are, no matter where you're working. Challenges can always be overcome through communication. Weakness comes from acknowledging where you're maybe lacking or where you need to improve. But often or not, if I don't know something I will not only go up to your desk and ask you but I will make sure I've got the time to help others if they come to me as well. Hey, so before we jump in I want to say a massive thank you because the space by stances is here, the top 25 design shows in the UK. And that's a really, I mean, obviously we're so grateful to our guests. They are absolutely amazing. And all of you, the audience tuning in, sharing, following all your engagement on socials. Absolutely, like we're blown away, so grateful. So we've done something special. We have launched show notes and you can go on to stances.co.uk forward slash space and sign up for show notes where you get a call or email in your inbox every week

1:02just tipping you off on the person that we've spoken to and like key highlights of what they've said some key headline things just to make quick, simple scroll read on your commute on the train. So that's stances.co.uk forward slash space. And we want to bring the community on and signing up for our show notes. So we'll see you there and now let's get into the conversation. Hi, welcome to another episode, a space by stances. I'm with Georgia Jackson Estimated at Carson Terriers and it's wicked. We're talking about the engine of the company, we're talking about the workhorse. I'm taking that inspiration now that hold out in the trenches bit. So often, as you know, talk to designers, but I really want to get into the trenches, find out what's happening, how the projects are working, that sort of thing. So let's see what we pick up and welcome Georgia. Thank you, thanks for having me. No, you're very, thank you for coming, taking the time out. Anytime. You're not an average estimator, are you? No, I like you. Like the picture I have of an estimator isn't, I know it's sexiest and demographicist and all that crap, but...

2:06I've been told that ever since starting in the construction industry that my personality has deviated from not at the standard estimator. I've got a bit more of a bubbly personality, I'm more willing to talk to people, make phone calls, get stuck in, and my personality might be suited more to a BD, or someone that has a lot more interaction with clients and client-facing. Yeah. But coming into estimating was not necessarily a choice. And it's not necessarily something that I thought I'd be in today. Okay, okay, that was a story, we're gonna... It was a story. Yeah. So I started off in construction when I was 17, 18 working from my father, Dad owns a residential building company back home in Sydney. And working for your father sometimes is by choice, but for me it was more of a passion to see what Dad does and get on job sites with him. And for me it was quite a nurturing way to get onto a construction site, being a female in the industry can be quite daunting. But instead, Dad kind of took me under his wing and anything went with Dad, you know,

3:08between helping and sheet plasterboard in, you know, bathroom's kitchens to renovations, building decks and bagolas, and some days just literally doing, as I was told, grabbing tools to Dad, or helping in about a kitchen or a bathroom. It was... It was a very hands-on approach that I don't think... It's quite a tomboy. A little cut, a little bit, in a cool way. But I don't think I would have had that same foundation in construction if it wasn't for Dad. Yeah. Because in my family, we always joke, there is no one that believes more in a female than a Dad who needs and helps. I like that. Yeah. Yeah, I can see that. All girls. I am one of three. Yeah. Three girls. So Paul Dad, I think he really wanted a son. But he was blessed with three girls instead. So I think he just adapted to the situation. Yeah. And the cards that he felt. Yeah, just like fitted you into the sunroll. Yeah. Yeah. Basically, at one point, all of us, all three of us, my sisters and I, all of us, were working in construction. And it was probably the proudest moment of my father's life and acknowledgement and acceptance

4:08that he didn't probably need a son for us to follow in his footsteps. So I think he was, and it still is quite proud of us today. It was going to say, what's he saying today? I think he's quite proud of us. You know, sometimes men aren't as vocal or expressive in their worlds. But no, Dad is very proud of us. And it's probably all following his footsteps. Yeah. And then how did you come over here then? London was a choice that I made. I think it took a few years and it was always playing the back of my mind. I've got my talent pass for moms Italian. So Europe was always, you know, naturally we were drawn to Europe. After I finished working with Dad, I started my apprenticeship. We call it cadetship back home in Sydney, working for a commercial company. And I really learned a lot there. The company helped to facilitate my career. It taught me about constructions and methods of estimating. But there is a funny story about that. I didn't start working for the company thinking that I'd become an estimator.

5:08Everyone kind of does the construction degree at university. And has this goal to become a project manager. A project manager back home is slightly different to a project manager here. What's more senior? Not necessarily more senior, but a project manager isn't kind of on the tools in terms of on-site. The project manager back home, they write the methodology, write the program. They manage costs and it assisted on-site by a site manager. So the terminology is slightly different and the roles are slightly different. Like everyone else, I got into the construction degree. Dad encouraged me to get into university to the construction degree. And I had that same goal and aspiration to be a project manager one do. That turns out I was not enjoying the commercial sides of it. In terms of managing trades on-site, managing a live environment. It didn't kind of gel to my liking. And we do joke about it. But the MD, the company that I work for back home, said how about you try estimating. And at the time, I had this stereotypical association of estimating as boring job.

6:08You know that you use a calculator and you crunch numbers. And it's a job that no one typically wants to enter into construction for. But ever since then, I've fallen in love with the role. What's different about it to what you expected? I think I really enjoy the adaptability of the projects that you have. And the quick turnaround as well. What I might price in say four to six weeks. The guys on-site have to deliver in say four to six months. So you get that continuous flow of work and exposure to different types of projects quickly. So it's not that same. I do agree. I have that sort of Excel spreadsheet, quite a sort of like monotonous, like boring geeky role. If you're not on me, you're ahead. But you'll see it. It's more people than that. Or how's it? More people. I have different relationships, I think, with the supply chain as well. Because I take their numbers for face value. I also really enjoy working collaboratively with the pre-construction team.

7:08But that goes beyond the pre-construction director. A TSM, a design manager, and trying to build the cost all in our heads before it's to live outside. So there's a bit of creativity in it. And you have to be able to understand the process of what happens first. You have to demo the side and then start the way up from there. All in your head before. I think visually seeing it on-site. I think everyone associates an estimator is they stick in their lane and they have to calculate the cost. And pull all the costs together. But it goes beyond that. And it does transcend that role. You have to work closely with the pre-construction director who's probably throwing together the construction program. And ensure my costs align with his assumed time on-site. I also have to then work closely with a TSM who has a lot more services knowledge than myself. And I can always acknowledge other people's strengths and weaknesses, including my own. So sitting with a TSM, understanding services, how the service is built. Because sometimes looking at the amount of two-day piece of paper is quite mind-boggling. Yeah, I bet.

8:08And then on top of that, pulling it together with the design manager or interior designer. They've either designed the project from a DMV world or they're helping me understand the buildability through the design lens. And can the project be built the way it's drawn? That you ever miss anything out? From the 2D to actual. So we always joke about this. And I always press send on a tender hypothetical on a Friday at 5pm. And instantly as I press send, my brain starts to go into overdrive. What have I missed? Have I got that? Did I exclude this? And it is a joke as an estimator, as what have you missed? Because there's always something you need. There's always going to be something. And no matter how high I try to read specs, capture costs, call subcontractors, collate costs. There's always going to be something. But the aim of the game, I guess, is to always to memorize and mitigate as much as you can. Whether that's putting clarifications into protect yourselves in the company, reading docs and scopes. But also working collaboratively with the supply chain, so that we're all on the same page.

9:08But yes, there has never been a tender and negotiated job where I haven't missed something. But I will evidently never make the same mistake twice. Okay, so process of elimination is happening? And learning. I think I come with experience with different types of projects, different types of jobs out there. I generally try never to make the same mistake twice because you learn from that. You learn from mistakes. So you learn from how a job has gone well, but also even more so when a job's gone less successfully. Yeah, I mean, that's the same for everyone, isn't it? It's like even companies or anything like that. Sometimes when you get negative review on a project or a product or something like that, then actually how you respond to that is more important than the actual thing in the first place. We are all human. We are all human. And I do believe that humans do make mistakes, but humans can do wonderful things as well. Like estimators who make mistakes, we also can make mistakes when it comes to trying to get the costs to where you want it to be. But sometimes spending a little bit more upfront will help save money in the future.

10:10It's a bit of a balancing out between understanding clients, budgets, needs and constraints, but also understanding the functionality of the space, the office space they're moving into, and will this last the next five years that you plan to be in here for? How do you get that cost? You just meet them. You explain that. Communication is very important, but not just communicating your wants and needs, but also listening to the clients' needs. And sometimes you're not going to get it right the first go. Often clients come to us and negotiate a project and our initial cost plan from a cost perspective far exceeds their budget. And then you have to start to revise the cost plan, revise the design, scale back where you can to try and find a balance between their cost expectations and the fit out that they want to get you walking to one day. So what can clients do to help you deliver on time and on budget? I think honesty and open transparent communication is very important from the get-go. If they have a certain budget, let us know.

11:12We can then build to that budget and ensure that you're getting best value for money. But also understanding their wants and needs from site. Is a 12 person meeting room important? Do you value more open spaces, breakout spaces, flexible workstations? Understanding the priorities and focusing on those and then finishing off with nice to have. So is that generally thrashed out in strategy, though, with design strategy side? I don't think you can have a design without understanding the cost. And sometimes designers go on a lovely tangent of beautiful finishes and beautiful end products without having an understanding of the cost to do so. So is that kind of blended? Yeah. And often I don't understand as well the design in terms of the finishes and muscle look fantastic. And that's great. And often it does look fantastic. But I often look at the design and here, and it's true. And I do it every day of my life, whether I'm walking into a restaurant, whether I'm walking past a construction site, you start to see as an estimator the world around you based on cost.

12:16And I think designers have that beautiful design mindset, which is fantastic. I'm so envious of that. What kind of suppliers like us need to help you out? It's important for suppliers also to be transparent, whether it be cost sheets and understanding rates as well. Often suppliers price things a bit differently to an estimator in the bit out world, where it comes to material supply and install rates as well. Or as often I will say things as an all-encompassing swear made array or lump sum rate, which is a build-up of that. So I think suppliers can definitely help the industry by providing, whether it be cost sheets, rate sheets, you know, of course cost can support. Because there's a lot of our stuff. Isn't actually like a linear meterage rate. Yeah. But I'm thinking stances, personally, like acoustics and curtains, like quite a lot is like per pack or per panel. Per panel. But you would prefer just to see it as a square meter rate. Sometimes it depends because that's how I've traditionally been taught to price. However, I have seen in more recent times, and especially since moving to the UK, suppliers of fabric panels and curtains,

13:18they don't have a price per linear meter or per square meter is per panel. And for me, it's shifting my train of thought and understanding, well, why do they price like that? And it makes more sense that the panel, you have to buy a panel, say, a 1200 by 1200 panel, and you may have to cut that, and the leftover has to go into waste. So I'm having more of an appreciation for how subcontractors and suppliers, but it's a bit different for me to the commercial fit out well. Yeah, that's interesting. And jumping into a different topic, how do you see the industry changing over the next year or five? Next year or five is a massive change between now and then. But I do suspect that the industry will change in a few ways. First and foremost, maybe with the implementation and introduction of AI. Our world is so technology heavy and technology based. I'll be very interested to see how AI can integrate, not just with the construction industry, but how it can support my role. AI is, of course, computer based.

14:18And I don't think it will ever take away the human aspect of an estimator that I would love to see how AI can support my role, whether that be assessing quotes or scanning documents, helping with definitions or pulling together a bit of a check, or even the database between, say, benchmarking the last day 10, 2010, there's location, costs and scope, and pulling similarities that I can use in benchmark on the next project. Quick breather, are you enjoying the tic-tac? We are really passionate about highlighting the voice of designers and workplace managers. You can help more people and more designers like you by subscribing to the show. So we'll carry on doing a bit, and you do yours, and we'll make this show seriously, seriously great. And obviously, don't forget to subscribe to show notes on stansons.co.uk forward slash space. Let's keep chatting. Yeah, I can see it changing. I don't need to unnecessarily change how we think it might change.

15:19I think it will have a huge impact, like, obviously. I'm like Google versus yellow pages, sort of days. Like, I get it, but I don't think it will necessarily change how we expect, because I think there's something about the human intervention and how we think. Whether we even aren't creative people, we still think quite laterally. You can apply situational and project credits and things. I just feel that humans can do that in a way where AI can be very intelligent, but it's kind of almost one angle. It is, and the human aspect of AI will never come to fruition personally because it would defeat the purpose of being a human and defeat the person of AI. If you think about the construction industry, the only consistent element that's surpassed time is how we have built buildings. If you think about, like, bricks or, you know, pouring concrete, that has not changed fundamentally for many, many, many years. And I can't imagine that changing in the years to come.

16:20However, what I do imagine with that is the product, all the materials will improve to either create more sustainable buildings, you know, more durable buildings, and buildings that will be a bit more sound moving forward. But I think the process of pouring concrete, as a very mundane example, has it really changed? But the processes that support that will. Yeah, no, that makes sense. What do you think? What's the biggest change it will create? I actually think the biggest change that we'll see maybe more so in the UK and the years to come, and whether it be in one year or five years, and this is tapping into my Australian background, is the implementation from a sustainability perspective as well. I know we've got Brianna, and we've got all these different sustainability certifications. Certifications is a media good word. And even more recently, I've seen neighbors come into play in the UK. What's neighbors? Neighbors, isn't it? I'm sorry to be thick. That's OK. Neighbors is an Australian sustainability organisation, which helps to maintain sustainability for building.

17:21Yeah, OK. So it's a seminar to Brianna. Similar to Brianna. There's many crossovers that I've only recently come across it. However, there is a website you can go on to type in any building in London, especially, and the number of neighbors' buildings is becoming more prevalent. I'm working on a job at the minute, and there is a neighbor's building, where the neighbor's reading a five, and essentially, perhaps into energy consumption, water consumption, and it's a commitment of the building to maintain or prevent maybe excessive consumption, so that we're not necessarily having as much on the environment. That's cool. It is. And in a vacuum of Sydney, I think every other job had a neighbor's rating to it, and you know, engage a consultant, and have some feedback, had a neighbor's review, and ensure that the fit out works you were doing weren't necessarily going to have an impact on the building itself, and it's a bit of a commitment, I think. So I think, and they used to come as well, sustainability will play a massive role, or a bigger role than what it is now in the industry.

18:22Yeah, yeah. It's interesting to see news certifications coming. We've got, like, we've got kind of so many for starters, I guess, but then more holistic ones, like that, how that sounds, in terms of it covering more than just the build, but it's almost like the livingness, how the building lives. Yeah, yeah. Livingness was not a great way. Yeah, and construction itself has such a massive impact on the environment between fit outs that build construction buildings that build, and then a few years later, you'd be the record artist about, and all of that access goes to landfill, but something that I have been a little bit more involved in here in the UK compared to back home, is the implementation and encouragement of reuse materials, whether it be reusing glazing petition from one project dismantling and taking it down reinstalling elsewhere, or reusing ceiling tiles, reusing floor finishes. You've had this, you've had this actually happening. We're doing it right now, and it's, it's done a cost exercise recently where the reuse of glazed petition, sometimes it's cost neutral,

19:22however the impact it can have from a cardin, you know, perspective, is it outweighs the cost itself, and I'm seeing a lot of more clients willing to engage in sustainable products, whether it be not necessarily to tick a green box, because they are passionate, and it comes down to the core values of the companies themselves. So people are taking glass petitions out of one building, storing it somewhere, storing it, transporting it, delivering it to site, and in storing it, spraying it, or whatever, and in storing it, and you couldn't tell the difference. So where's it stored? Sometimes it'll have to come down from the site, chuck it straight into a pallet or a van, and take it straight to site, so it's not necessarily stored, or a can be stored in a warehouse that's not used, but if we source a project, or have a project where there's some glazed petition, we can take it down and transport it straight to site. Because I think those sort of things are genius. If they're cost neutral, then, or if they're saving, then even better.

20:22But the problem I can see with it is, when you take something away, does it just become a junkyard? Where's it stored? How do you track that infantry? How do you then procure it if someone else has a project that? Do you know, I mean, the whole logistics of it, I guess, is a bit of a mind- Yeah, on the student house, sometimes you can get material index, or an audit of the site, and list it all out, and we do it internally, where I'm working now, and it is so interesting to see that, and very true as well, you might have a fit out that has a thousand square feet of carpet tiles, and someone has to quantify that, calculate that, and very quickly, it can get snapped up. It can. Yeah, oh my goodness. Yeah, whether it be other projects, or donation for site, it's very interesting, and for me. It's good. Yeah, by not adding to landfill, you're giving it a purpose elsewhere. But quite a meaningful purpose, not just to try hard purpose. Meaningful purpose. Meaningful purpose. And often, some of the products that do come out

21:23from in the demolition of the strip out phase, and when they are reinstalled, to the naked eye, would never know, between new or reuse. No, because the things can be in for a relatively short period of time. Yeah, we are seeing fit outs that have built, and then three, four, five years later, are being stripped out. Or even day one of moving in, they're being modified and stripped out, to soothe the new incoming turn, and it is a constant, changing cycle of the one space. And I think that if you stripped out your personal property, once every three to five years and started again, like, it's a lot of landfill, but also all of cost. Totally, but because it's commercial, it's sort of... Yeah, and I think in our society, we do throw things away without knowing where it goes, because out of sight, out of mind, that could go, you know, everyday life in your kitchen, your home, your office, as well, then, to that of demolition and strip out of fit spaces. I know what that's like. Put it thinking away, live in. And forget about it.

22:23Sat in front, Scott. Yeah, don't worry about it. It does exist somewhere, so reducing that, I think, will be very important moving forward. I am really glad to hear like it's happening, how it's happening, and that could even scale, doesn't have to... Yeah. Stop there. Do you know what I mean? Watch this though. Watch this space. What was one of the challenges that are in construction that you face in UK, which you didn't expect to face? There's always thought me to be challenges, no matter where you are, no matter where you're working, but I think challenges, for me, come necessarily from new scope. A challenge might be, I'm the priced, a certain element, I've never engaged with a certain subcontractor, but challenges can always be overcome through communication and collaboratively working together. People think as an estimator, we know all the answers, we know all the costs, and it's not necessarily that I don't, because I have a plethora of knowledge in my brain,

23:23but it's always a challenge of being cost certain as well. And if I am not cost certain, or how can I get an answer, whether it's calling a subcontractor or a supplier, what's the cost for this? I'm not knowing scope is pulling the relevant team members together and asking them for help. And I think, in the construction industry, people are often a bit more reluctant to help, or reluctant to ask for help, because... Yeah, yeah. Scene is weakness. Scene is weakness. Or you're seeing as not, maybe as knowledgeable or skilled as what you should be. And I think, weakness comes from acknowledging where you're maybe lacking or where you need to improve. But often or not, with my personality, if I don't know something, I will not only go up to your desk and ask you, but I will make sure I've got the time to help others if they come to me as well. Yeah, I like that. That's a really good answer, in the sense, that we can make construction a better place. If I'd just been more open, less judgment, easier to ask questions,

24:23I do agree, because you go out to sight, and I'm sorry, I'm so thick, and I'm not quite embarrassed, I don't know what to say, I'll see if people use an abbreviation to me. No, don't know. I think there's knowledge in not knowing, but also knowledge in asking for something, I need to tell you about it, because you'll learn about that, and you can apply that onto the next project, the next tender, the next job that you do. And then you can share that note, again, and it keeps you going. Yeah, yeah. And you build on this lessons line, you know, of lessons learn, how can I then apply my lessons, because a lesson is only learnt, if you then apply that moving forward. Yeah. And I've definitely learnt some lessons, it was moving here. It's amazing, it's a great, it's amazing to share like what we've picked up in terms of where the industry is going, what we can learn, and value engineering, a whole approach to that. I mean, thank you so much for sharing at Georgia. Thank you. It's absolutely brilliant. I've got one last question for you. What music do you listen to when you're focusing? Ooh, this is a very, very controversial one, because back to the estimator,

25:24Nate Sharp, and an estimator, as we know, we like to work very independently, and yeah, I'd say not because I know my day has my, you know, his canceling headphones in. I do like, this is going to be very, very off piece here. Some like, you know, best of deaf, row record, some sort of heavy rap. Yeah, very, very controversial, but the beat helps, you know, to get into the zone, type away, but also a bit of house music, without the words, because sometimes words can be very distracting, but I will listen to music, doing any task in the office. I can read in, any piece back, I can, you know, draw some drawings, I can set up meetings, and if I'm listening to music, without the words, it does help, to kind of get you in the zone, but then not take away from the destruction of the words themselves, and rather than focusing on the words, you focus on the beat, and you're focusing on typing away, I'm thinking. To house music. To house music, yeah. But you always can't slang often, I get a bit of a fright when someone comes up to my desk, and because of my long, brown hair, my headphones do tend to hide. Yeah. Um, so sometimes I, I shock myself, when people start me,

26:25I'm like, hello. Yeah, so, oh, sorry, it means it looks so rude. Oh, that's amazing. Thank you so much for coming on Georgia, and showing all of that absolute blast. Thank you, everyone, for tuning in. There we go. That's the, um, side of a building from in the trenches, with Georgia Jackson cast. Don't forget to like, subscribe, algorithm will do its thing, and we'll get more great guests like Georgia on. Thank you. Bye.