Beginnings and Endings

From KMUW Wichita, from Toronto, Ontario, and from Armenia, Spain.

This is your saying wrong.

Let's talk words.

Let's talk about those tiny little things we add to words that can sometimes totally change

their meaning.

I'm Fletcher Powell, host and producer at KMUW in Wichita, Kansas, and joining me as

they do every week, language experts and New York Times bestselling authors, Kathy Petrus

and Ross Petrus.

Hey guys, some beginnings and some endings and some things in between on today's episode.

How you like that?

Was that good?

We're probably starting off with a listener email though, right?

Yes.

Yes.

Carrie from New Orleans.

Hi, Carrie.

Just amusing.

This was actually very interesting.

We're a lot of fun chatting about this.

Just amusing.

At my age, 63, I don't mind being called an older woman, but if someone calls me an old

woman, I might be a little torqued.

Oh, funny.

Yeah.

A little torqued.

I like that too.

I like that too.

But older is older than old.

No?

What's going on here?

I must say, I love her.

Yeah.

This is really interesting.

We had a little discussion about it.

We couldn't find much on it except for our own opinions.

And I think, obviously, older is a comparative versus old.

So older can be, you can be an older toddler and it doesn't have that age, you know, he's

the older one of our two kids.

So older, I think, because it's a comparative, doesn't automatically say, hey, you're over

the hill.

It says, like, you're older.

And so I think that's probably why I completely agree with her.

I think older sounds fine.

It sounds more distinguished, right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Which gets to the next thing too.

And Catherine, I both have opinions, of course, on that too.

Elder.

Uh-huh.

Okay.

What do you weigh in on our opinion on that one?

I don't like elder.

Neither do I.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You mean elder as an adjective, not like, not like an elder.

Well, I mean, as I...

Well, elderly too, though.

I don't like elderly.

Elderly.

Right, right, right.

But we're not talking about...

No, he's saying not as a noun.

Like, Kathy, a wise elder of the tribe.

Right.

Yeah.

Tribal elder or...

For the LDS church, I think they use the church.

Yeah.

Oh, that too.

Yeah.

No, we're talking elderly elder, like an elder woman.

I don't like elder to begin with.

No, I don't.

I like older and older more than elder and...

I don't either.

Elder has like that...

But what Father just said, elder does have that elder of the church.

It has a very formal feel to me.

It doesn't necessarily...

It's not necessarily that the case in terms of language.

But for me, it definitely has, uh, I'm an elder of the church.

I'm an older person.

That's what I would say.

You know?

We don't really even talk about like the eldest child anymore, do we?

No.

Well, one thing that was interesting, we found that a lot of sources, actually.

And I think this is historical more than current, be honest with you.

I think it's like a relic, if you will.

Recommend that you use elder and eldest when you talk about people in the same family.

Mm-hmm.

Ross is elder than Kathy.

Oh.

Which sounds wrong, I mean, I'm sorry.

I would say Ross is older than Kathy.

Yeah.

Kathy is better looking than Ross.

Oh, sorry.

Ross is more intelligent than Kathy.

I'm even using the ER this time.

Even that seems really weird though.

You would say they want you to say elder than?

I can hear like, I can hear like Ross is the elder child.

Yeah.

Ross is elder than Kathy.

No, I should ever say it.

It's very odd to me, you.

I think it's pretty much gone out.

I mean, some, I don't even think people my age really say elder, eldest.

And certainly not younger people.

No.

You still say the elderly though, don't you?

Yes.

Yes, absolutely.

The elderly.

I don't even say the elderly.

I don't even say the elderly.

The elderly.

The elderly.

But you wouldn't even say the old.

I wouldn't say the old.

The old American needs to like take care of the old.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That sounds kind of like harsh.

Yeah.

Yeah.

For some, we go back to register again, oddly enough, don't we?

But you would say elders, I mean, they mentioned at one point, if anyone reads Latin, Pliny the Elder is a famous and Pliny the Younger.

They're famous two Plines and they distinguish the tube of elder one and the Younger.

I always love that as a kid.

I think this is so cool.

I think this is so cool.

Kathy the Younger.

I know.

But we do say elder statesmen.

Yes.

You don't say older statesmen.

Right.

And it goes back to again, elderly has like a very formal connotation to me.

The older doesn't.

You say respect your elders.

Yes.

You don't say respect the old people.

These are kind of like fossilized phrases now, aren't they?

They are, I think so.

Yeah.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

If Pliny were around now, we go, I'm Pliny the older.

I don't know.

It's the older Pliny.

I don't know.

Oh, what I'm going to ask you, Kathy, why don't you go on a little bit with older origin of old?

Because that was interesting.

Oh, of the fact that they came for the same root, you're an old, yeah, they came from

Old English yell drop. I think you mean elder England comparative form of thank you

Which came from old old that was elder came from that but old also came from yelled and it would just got spelled differently because of the German

Influence so you'll have two words. They basically just got like they just split in terms of spelling

Now I'm gonna throw to you two something I found out oh crap. It's gonna be hard

This was the weirdest word origin. I think I've ever seen

Can you name one instrument like you're going to an orchestra?

There's one instrument in that orchestra that is directly related with the word old

Besoon

That was well done though you said for a second. That's too

It's not the right it's the other double read instruments the old bow. Oh, bow. You both got it. Yeah, no

I was I was like following it is. I was cheating

Such as right I just copy from his test paper

Very impressed it's obo is right it comes from the

The old became out in French so became out boi, which is like

Old wood old wood. Yep. Oh, wow

I am so impressed

Fletcher smart. Yeah, he has an old brain

No, I mean I had no idea that one I had none I would not have I would not have thought let's move on

Let's see if we could get Fletcher. There's a lot more we could do with that old

I'm just looking at there's so much alderman. Yeah, oh alderman comes from old too. Oh, yeah, which never occurred to me

Yeah, old actually the original word comes from

Al the word all like that which also relates to like alma mater

Love and I and all that it's basically feeding something that then grows bigger in taller

Whoa came into huh now we're gonna move on to something different completely, which are prefixes

Do they make this word the opposite the same or different in another way?

Okay, this is sort of I mean we got this basically relates to a long time ago

We talked obviously about flammable inflammable. Oh, yes, how do I mean the same thing?

Right, so we're gonna go on here into

False opposites lose reantonyms or same thing or slightly different

We're gonna start with I think Fletcher's gonna know all of these so we're gonna discuss them more and rather than have him

We're not gonna quiz you on this in the same degree

So we have habitable and

Inhabitable all right, and in this case it is opposite, right? You can live there or you where it's not

conducive to life wait in half. Oh, you inhabit something don't you?

Yes

Sorry, I had to I had to talk through that I was obviously thinking of uninhabitable

Habitable and inhabitable are cinamons

No, they're the same and interestingly enough though a long time ago

Inhabitable did mean not habitable. Mm-hmm. Hmm interesting

Which is the real problem with most languages a lot of times you think think it's things are gonna be logical and they

Become human and capricious and you know people flip. Yeah, so in that sense it now they both basically mean the same thing and

You used to have

Unhabitable which you don't have now

You have uninhabitable, but you used to have uninhabitable

Hmm, okay next valuable

Invaluable synonyms or not. Mm-hmm. They they're not exactly the same

I don't want to say their opposites either. They're just they're just different valuable means it has value

Invaluable means you can't put a value on it

I guess but that doesn't mean it doesn't have value. It means it. Yeah

The in there in effect is a knot

But it's a knot in the sense like you just said it. It's so good that you can't value it right so

Yeah, it's beyond value. Yeah, although it used to apparently though in some cases in the 1630s

I think it also meant worthless

That's it

It took out that thing of above value two valuable for you to value

What gets me with that though is

Invaluable would you say I guess you'd have unvaluable which you don't use do you you don't have such a word

I know is there one that's not used on because you would argue that

Unvaluable then would be the thing that lacks. Yeah, I know we say things like worthless. Yeah

Yeah, we don't say but but it used to be apparently that was the case for a long time ago

I mean in the 1600s some people did use invaluable to me not valuable

But you can't do it. Yeah, now you just say like that's not particularly valuable

That's unvaluable there's not a word exactly interesting. No, but like it but you could like with expensive you say inexpensive

Yeah, they're the in works

But you say unexpensive can is there an unexpensive as well?

I mean I heard a

Sloppy

I might actually looked at was inexpensive ever a word. I don't yeah

I don't think so but it would be so nice if it was just like in on you know everything is like actually

Yeah, they actually they're saying it was apparently whether we go back to Orwell in that one

Unexpensive, ungood, you know, etc. Unwarm, etc. I have it as an archaic usage

1800s. Yeah, I have it is

Websters has

1828

Okay, so it's like not anything. Yeah, okay, so it's it that was an invaluable. No, it was an unvaluable question

But we are saying that Fletcher is something of a genius or where is he ingenious?

Yes

This is a trick one

It's not the opposite they just kind of mean different things don't they yeah genius is

You brilliant and ingenious is like super clever

Mm-hmm. Oh, you can see where they they're related. You can see yeah, sure

I guess the in there takes a like in literally an in not a knot, but an in

Your in in genius

Getting the genius in

Well, they're from different. I mean the roots though are different. Are they not yes?

They are oh they are the the genius the genius part of that is different

Looks like it to me. No, they're not no, they're not

They're from the Latin

To be get I guess I see from the very big at the bit way back. It's from the root root root

Yeah, the problem you get in with that is by the time it gets to get to Latin

I got it from the pie excuse me P.I. Yeah, oh no, I'm sorry. You know me. I was go back to Latin

It's like yeah, no, I know because I was earlier than Latin dude

But it's still the word though still goes backwards. It's still the same room. Yeah, but they split pretty early

They split pretty early, but it's still to be get you'll be getting your okay, but they're spelled differently too

Catherine

They didn't spell and that Proto and you can't

Yes, they did I was on the steps back then. I don't like talking about it. It was tough

Okay, next next is Kathy famous for that statement

for that

We must have talked about this relatively recently because I remember thinking about that scene from three amigos where they ask

I'll guapo with yes

Famous in

Good I haven't seen it in a while now what I watch it so if you're famous then you're you're well-known and and that

Generally means a good thing if you're infamous, then you are

notorious, which I guess is bad now. Yeah

It's so funny though. I never I never associate and obviously they're related and I don't think of it in famous

infamous excuse me with infamy. I never I never associate. Oh, yeah

No, I think infamy is its own entity

That's so funny and I probably I think I can blame three amigos for me never thinking of that

I mean because I saw that when I was a kid and so that

That's probably my first exposure to the word infamous and so I think I've always just thought in famous

I've never thought about it for me. It's really okay though because

It literally began meaning not famous like not well known

Yeah, huh the Latin basically is like Famosas or Fama would be like would be report or repute

And so you're not really know but then for you're not really known to have good repute

So therefore you're infamous in that sense which makes sense

How it just sort of changed over time. Yeah, yeah, I like the fact that there's also the word

Fameless, which you never really see. Oh, that's nice. I kind of like that. It's like you're not and that you're not infamous

You're not famous you're fainless

You put the great

boring

Okay, this one is actually really interesting because this is one of my pet peeves

Although in a way it shouldn't be because

They used to be switched around but we've talked about that

We've talked about this at length and I think I probably go on and on about it because I for some reason it just really gets me

Disinterested and uninterested. Oh, right. Oh, right. Okay. Let me let me get this straight uninterested means I

Don't think it's interesting, right?

Disinterested is I don't have like a stake in either side. Yep, right? Exactly. Yeah, but it used to be the opposite. Oh

That's what drives me crazy. I know. I got a screaming about that. Oh, that's nuts

Yeah, uninterested came about in the 1640s and it meant that you had no biases

It was just you were no no no vested interests

You didn't have a stake in it. Right

And this interested man. You didn't care

Yeah, which why why does this happen Ross? I don't know and this is I mean, I don't know to the two of you have

This one really hits me. I really do not like it when I see the judge was uninterested in the case. I go

That's a bad judge. Oh, I'm the opposite of you. I have no I have no problem with them. You being used interchange

Oh really wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait you you have no problem with uninterested meaning

Disinterested. Yeah. Oh, I don't I don't really have a problem with

Disinterested meaning I don't really care about it. I have no

Because I'm so used to people saying disinterested. Yeah, like I even kind of assume they mean

I don't care. I'm interested right

But the other way I could not handle that. I could need an uninterested judge does not mean a disinterested judge

I don't want to add interest to judge when I go to actually your guys are right

I'm taking it's the other way

The other way I can handle it. I'm picturing the judge right now picturing like

You know what I mean and I want to I want to

Canas toenails and

I'm back to work that I'm sorry

So just to keep on that when you guys just hear somebody in conversation say

Disinterested what do you assume they mean? I assume they're using the word incorrectly in terms of the current definition

And they don't mean they're interested of less their judge and the judge goes. I'm disinterested

I presume the judge is talking about it doesn't have a case you know

He doesn't have a case for against the prosecution. Yeah talk to a judge

He says disinterested. I know what he means

Talk to like, you know a friend who goes I'm disinterested in that. I think I know what he means

Yeah, I think that kind of indicates that the word has has changed a lot and and it's just not going to mean

Unbiased very soon

Although I'm fascinated by how old the flip was because I mean

I'm reading right now from the OE

I think it's from the OED or it might be from something else saying the modern sense of disinterested meaning in partial free from self-interest

Is it test about the 1650 1650s?

Well, so you know what happened what happened was you know, they used to be switched

and people were like

Look guys

Whenever you say uninterested. I don't think impartial. I think you don't care

We got to switch these and so everybody just switched them. It's awesome

For all we know it could be

I like picturing though this is a board of people

Okay, next

We did disinterested right

Okay, the next word now is sort of interesting. This is this is not a pre-think. This is a suffix

And this really sort of got us because I never really thought it I instantly knew and I'm sure Kathy

New and I'm sure you instantly know the difference, but I never we never thought about them

caregiver

Versus care taker. Oh wow and it's really interesting because they're also the giver and the taker

But they're kind of doing the same sort of thing

Well, I think we should let flat your way

But I went away into the difference between the two words well

So okay, so while a caregiver

Is someone who's obviously taking care of another person that's

Then I it's funny because I said taking care of

Yeah, it's interesting to exactly you say exactly what I wanted to say

Yeah, a care taker

is often

Taking care of like in a state or something like that, but not necessarily. I mean you a care taker could be taking care of

Like another maybe not necessarily one person, but a group of people or something

Like care taker could mean people or animals or something

It doesn't necessarily mean in a state at least when I hear it. Yeah, that's that's the thing

I never really thought about it, but I instantly know

You know, he's a caregiver to his elderly mother. Oh, here's the thing

Okay, so like a caregiver is somebody who who takes care of somebody who

Who is maybe infirm or something like that you could be the care taker to

For children like and you could be like they're nanny. I mean like they they do need your help, but they're not

In firm and and sickly or or old and can't move, right? Yeah, let's look at I'm just like taking a look at Merriam Webster on this

I'm looking at OAD care taker

Someone who gives physical or emotional care and support

Okay, so that

Fletcher and here's the line that Fletcher just said

He served as a care taker to the younger children. Yeah, so you can take her you meant care giver

No care taker. Yeah, he he takes care of them

He you know it feeds them and clothes them whatever, but but care giver is gonna be somebody who who needs help

Like that because of some kind of infirmity. Here goes Merriam Webster with Fletcher's definition

care giver a person who provides direct care for children elderly people or the chronically ill

So we have very subtle definitions there

I was fascinated that care giver

The first thing at OED is 1966 didn't we just kind of dump people off to the side before

I have care taker from 1858. Yeah, so and so active as a nursing care taker care giver is much more recent

I mean the 20th century. That's pretty

recent caregiver sounds recent to me. Yeah, it does I agree

Yeah, it's sort of smacks of sociological and psychological textbooks doesn't it

I must say though when I look at both of them

It's so funny in my head to me. I would have thought the difference was caregiver people care taker house

And it's interesting to just how we instantly which is the problem you never really know another language unless you lived in the language

I mean that that's really hard to explain. I think that if someone is

Learning English. That's a really hard thing to instantly. You're not gonna. Yeah, I think that you just avoid the topic

Okay, this is another email

This is Pat and San Francisco said there's something that I've long wondered about so thought you too

I'm sorry Fletcher just asked

That's reasonable were the people to ask

Why do we say beloved Ed as in dearly beloved? We are gathered here

Most other words with an ed ending don't have the ed is a separate syllable. I'm confused ed

Okay, and to relieve your confusion this it's not really that confusing

The key thing really is that the ed used to be pronounced in old English

So everything was ed

Confused it as Kathy just said you would say confuse it

It's the past participle the ed form would have that sound

Then the sound got lost

But we've talked a lot about fossilized words and we have sayings or whatever that still retain that sound because people got used to saying the whole phrase

Blessed are they the aged people

He is learned those kept the ed sound

Basically just by the capricious of English or because people were basically using them in like you know

In a phrase

Blessed are there would are dearly beloved. I wanted to interject also. I think we go back to register

We've got to talk about register. We do we have to yeah because I like learned it. It's just it sounds like smart

Don't you think I mean I know that sounds I agree like he's a very learned individual as a he would never say

He's learned individual no no no that I mean it which is odd because you're saying the same thing you what you would but you would not say

We would say Fletcher is learned it

Ross and Kathy are learned

Okay, this is the final frontier

This is because actually recently was it you or me? I don't remember Ross, but one of us asked the other

About of that which situation yeah, this is sort of a bugbear for Kathy and me because a lot of times we have editors

Doing our witches and that's and Kathy I always have to stop and I don't know

We it's like it's been years of doing this and and every time they'll be a calendar going

No, it's which of the cross out witches with that or whatever

And we always have to do like what's going on? We oh and we cannot get it through those you have a little language

There's like that one word that everyone like it's kind of pops up and you look in the dictionary like feel 48 times

You still don't remember the word right the same thing for which and that we cannot get it in our hands

I got I don't know about you for us, but what I do is just put whichever it like seems

Probreed the moment I don't really care anymore

I'm here like they'll catch it

So the deal here in case people haven't heard us talk about it before

Is that when you're writing a sentence you can write something like the dog that caught the car

Or you can write the dog which caught the car and people use them interchangeably often

Or don't know which one

So we're going to give you a quick mini quiz Fletcher to see if you're better than we are

Can you remember the role?

Mostly I can

Okay, and I'm not sure I can remember the terms that go with the rule, but I can I can try to explain it here

Okay, I sent you

Three sets of two sentences. Okay, so the first sentence here

It says the computer which is on my desk is broken

Is that correct or not?

Okay, so the way the way it's written

And this often helps me the way that's written there are no commas in that sentence

The computer which is on my desk is broken. So I think what you're saying is

Of all the computers in this room and there are many

The one particularly on my desk is the one that's broken

So you wouldn't you wouldn't say which in this case you would want to say that because you're pointing to to that particular computer

Perfect

Very good. We'll tell you the name of the rule now in a minute, but go next one

The next one the computer comma which I turned on earlier today comma is broken

In this case where there's only one computer we're really talking about and it's broken

And also I happened to turn it on earlier today, but that's not exactly important to this very good

We have taught you well, Padawan

Okay, now he may have known this before caddy. We're the dummy. I think we're the

We need the squids

I mean we know it theoretically, but we always blow it for some reason

So the deal is you're using that when the information that follows

Is important to understanding which one you're talking about right and you're using which when there's extra information

But if you take it out you still know the thing you're talking about right where it's called a restrictive clause

Okay, and it's restricting like with the computer that is on my desk is broke and the clause is

Which is that little bit of a you know like a fake a happy sentence is on my desk

Is integral to the whole thing it has to be there. It's restrictive. There has to be the one that's on my desk, right

Right, that's a restrictive clause restrictive clause

They take that and so it's unrestrictive unrestrictive is that what it's called when I restrict

Yeah, we went when you're talking about which so like let's just take that first sentence the computer which is on my desk is broken

In this case

There's only one computer to talk about because we're using the word which and it's not that important

That it's on my desk because if you walk into the room you're only going to see one computer

But if I'd said the computer that is on my desk is broken that means when you walk into the room

There might be multiple computers, but you need to go to the one on my desk

So it restricts it to the one that's on my desk, right?

The computer that is broken the computer that is on my desk is broken

But if I said the computer which is on my desk is broken

Let's say there are commas the computer comma which is on my desk

Is broken then it's not so important that it's on my desk. I mean you're just not right

You're not going to have a computer right right. Yeah, you got it. I want to choose out the apple one

Okay, let's do the apple. Okay

Apples that are read go in the basket

So we probably got some green apples here and some red apples here and who knows what other kind of apples here

But the ones that are red go in the basket

Right

The second sentence apples comma which are red comma go in the basket

I mean not necessarily a true statement if we're just talking about apples in general because they're not all red

But we're talking about red delicious apples okay

But basically we're saying put the apples in the basket the apples go in the basket

Did you know apples are red

And then I mean there's another way to say this is essential

Clause is we should I should have added that to essential that is essential

That means I think that's a better way to say that's essential to the yeah

I think that's better than restrictive and non-restrictive Franklin. I agree

Yeah, I think that's way more helpful and I don't think I've ever heard that before that's that's really helpful to understanding what you're doing here

Yeah, it's so odd though that I mean to this day Ross and Ross and I both know our language obviously

I thought was we wouldn't be sitting here talking with you

But I to this I sit there and I can't help it a lot of magic. I go that way that way

So do my problem is that when we write I think cafe does the same we both do the same thing

There's a flaw in in one's writing

And sometimes regardless of its essential or inessential

Which sounds better to me just how it flows and which you usually sounds better than that

That to me you're caveena you got it right

That I don't like I don't like that as much as I like which I like that stops you to me at least I would argue

I mean at that this is sort of like well, you know what I mean with which is what who well it is

I mean is much more mollifless which wish

Wish

Oh

Yeah, that's I know which which one that one

Feels like an Abbott and Castella routine

That's on first

You're saying it wrong is part of the NPR network and is produced in the studios of KMU W in Wichita Kansas by me let your

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Torren Anderson composed our theme music our digital team is Beth Gole and Carly Cooper

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