Balancing Act with Danny Cunningham

0:00Welcome to Chase Down Podcast, part of the cast Media Family, I'm your host Justin Rowan. Carter Rodriguez is doing the old faithful, which is galvanic around the world and abandoning me. I take it personally a little bit, but I also just enjoy the space and I enjoy the opportunity to bring back an old friend returning friend of the podcast, Danny Cunningham, of Lockdown Caves as well as the Inside Shot, Danny, how the hell are you buddy? I'm good. Days like today, I'm glad I don't have a co-host because I think I would just be heartbreaking when Carter leaves you if my co-host would leave me the way that he leaves you just galvanic across the globe. Sometimes I take it personally, sometimes I don't. He's a man. He can make his own decisions, but you just think, hey, we've built something special here.

1:02Come hang out with me in the summer, but it is what it is. We have some cast stuff to talk about. We finally got confirmation of the James Harden extension. That means the roster is more than less set. The Caves do have two decisions that they have to make on non-guaranteed deals with both Mario and Hizone as well as Craig Porter Jr. by October the 17th, but for the most part I think we can assume that this roster is set. Danny, I want to start off by asking you a question. Not will they, but do they? Does this Caves roster have what it needs in order to make an NBA finals run? Again, I'm not saying are they going to. I don't want you to make that prediction, but on paper, do you think that the upside exists with this current roster in order to make that deep of a run? I think the pathways there, I do. I don't know that they will, right? Like you phrased that question in a certain way to get a certain answer. I don't know that they will, but I think they can. I think they're capable of it.

2:03I think that they are in a big group of teams in the Eastern Conference right now. I think that you could probably look at seven teams in the East, and I'm not saying that I believe in all seven of these teams, but I think there are probably seven teams in the Eastern Conference that believe they can win the conference and go to the finals. I don't believe that to be true, but I think seven teams believe that to be true. The Caves are obviously in that group. I think a lot of this is going to depend on, does that have a mobility return to all NBA form that he was a couple of years ago? Part of that is staying healthy. We already had those two calf injuries last year that really I do think hampered his regular season. What do they get from Peyton Watson, the new guy in town, right? Is he going to be the guy that showed flashes of all star potential in Denver? Or is he going to maybe not quite reach those heights? Does Jalen Tyson take another step forward? Like if that combination hits the Caves are, I think right at the top alongside the New York Knicks as far as the best teams in the Eastern Conference. Is it going to hit? I don't know. That's what we're going to find out during the season. I'm very excited to find out what this all looks like, but I do think just in that

3:07pathway for them to be better than they were last year. And listen, this was a conference finals team. They're better than they were last year. That tells me they're capable of going to the finals. I think this team, I think there's definitely an argument that they are better on paper. It is interesting that as we've kind of progressed and we've seen a few versions of this Caves team, right? Like they kind of go through these swings where they consolidate talent, they add depth, they consolidate talent, they add depth, right? And I think in some ways, this was kind of a summer of consolidation, right? Some of it was guys that you just kind of had to part with for one reason or another, whether it was Dean Wade leaving for Philadelphia, losing out on retaining key on Ellis, but they now have more top end talent. I think the addition of Payton Watts and at least for me personally, it kind of rejuvenated my hope and my understanding of what this team's ceiling can be. I really do think he is a legitimate difference maker. And before that move, I would have said there's no way. I would have said that I don't think that there is a path for this team to make the NBA

4:10finals. And unless they got really lucky from a health standpoint, I think they needed to take this type of swing. I think they needed to introduce this type of up side. But the other side of that coin is you now have unproven players that are going to step up in one way or another, right? And I think the two areas that are the least proven would be the backup point guard position as well as the backup power forward position. When you're looking at those two spots, which one to you kind of stands out as the larger need where someone's going to have to make a bigger step than the other? I think the larger need might be the backup power forward spot. And I think part of that is you're always going to most likely always going to have considered, if both guys are healthy and I don't think that matters the most in this discussion. If James or Donovan gets hurt, then the answer changes. But you're always going to have James or Donovan on the floor. And I think because of that, like the backup point guard, it's just a little bit less important,

5:11not to say it's not important, but it's a little bit less important because you're going to have an all-star caliber guard on the floor for theoretically every moment that matters. You're going to have an all-star caliber power forward on the floor at times when Evan Mobile is out there. Obviously, Jared Allen doesn't, he only plays center, but like Evan at times is going to play center. And I think that third big spot, and that might be a better way to phrase it because last year some of the things they could do, like they got away at times with playing Dean Wade at center. And those lineups at times did really well offensively. They were very switchable defensively. It's not something you'd want to like build your roster around, but if you needed four minutes like that in a pinch, you could get away with it. They don't have that this year. And is Thomas Bryant going to be able to give them more than he could last year? Well, wait and see. Is Nequan Tomlin going to take a step forward that they hope that he can take? And I thought he looked good in the two summary games that he played, and obviously he does bring a sense of athleticism at a size that I just don't, I think unique to this roster

6:12and kind of unique to the NBA even. So I think a lot of it is, okay, what does that look like? What does it look like when the Cavs are only playing one of Evan or Jared? Who's that third big? Who's that? If they want to play Peyton Watson at the four at some times and you go a lineup that has Evan or Jared Peyton Watson and Jayland Tyson and maybe Sam Merrill or then Donovan Mitchell or James Harden. Like those lineups could be really fun, but I do think that there is a hole in that backup power forward spot. Is Nequan Tomlin going to fill it? Are they going to have to kind of play small ball with Peyton Watson there? Like that to me is one of the bigger questions about how Kenny Ackinson is going to play the lineup this year. I'm super curious to see how Kenny approaches this season and that's something we'll get into a little bit later. But if you had to guess or let's say if you were the one making the decision, what would kind of plan A, B for how you tackle that spot? Right? Because I think there have been examples in the past, right? Like Dean Wade would have been your example of undrafted, unproven guy that just through

7:12opportunity steps up and kind of fills that role. Nequan Tomlin following a very similar path. You also have the example of DeAndre Hunter, which we know Kenny love to use him as kind of that backup power forward in a lot of the smaller lineups. And those lineups were phenomenal. Like the lineup data was fantastic. And Peyton Watson can pretty much fulfill that role, right? He's a better rim protector than DeAndre Hunter. The defensive rebounding numbers are better. He's apparently added some size and weight. What would plan A before you? And you can even elaborate a little further and go, what would plan B be if that initial plan isn't working? I think plan A needs to be some of those minutes are going to be Peyton Watson. Some of those minutes are going to be Nequan Tomlin. And I think Kenny Hackinson is a coach that wants to have a bigger rotation, right? I think he wants to play nine or ten guys. He's never going to be a guy in the regular season. Certainly. It's just like, yeah, I'm cool plan eight tonight. That's not Kenny's ML.

8:14And I think you look at it like that rotation is going to fill up quick because you go, OK, the starting five is most likely going to be Donovan, James, Evan, Jared. And then I would assume Peyton Watson is going to be that fifth starter. Jalen Tyson, Sam Merrill, probably Craig Porter, Jr. is going to get that first crack at the backup point guard spot. That gets you up to nine. And then you've got Nequan Tomlin, who can be your tenth guy. And like maybe Malik Thomas slides in somewhere, maybe Tyrese Proctor, who I'm very high on slides in there, but I think that it has to be a mix of Nequan Tomlin and maybe even Jalen Tyson at times playing up, right? Maybe Peyton Watson at times, but I do think that one of the things that the calves have this year. And this is something that I do think they missed last year. And part of this is reliant upon Nequan Tomlin being a guy that does take a step forward. I think that they can be a more athletic team than they were last year. That's why I think the Peyton Watson edition might actually be the most helpful. Like not to say that it's easy to go find guys that can shoot over 50% from the corners

9:15the way they did. Or be a good defender or do all the things that they can do. But the calves really did not have athletes that look like Peyton Watson. And Nequan Tomlin is kind of the closest guy to that. So I do think that part of this goal here, at least as far as plan A should be, is, okay, well, let's just be as athletic as we can be. And I think Nequan Tomlin and Peyton Watson accomplished that. Now for plan B, it might be, well, Evan Mowgli is going to play most of his minutes at the four because we want Thomas Bryant to be that third big. We want Thomas Bryant to have a bit of a bigger role than he did last year. I don't know how well that's going to work. But I could see that. So like, Hey, Evan is not going to play all of his minutes out of the four, but he's going to play like 85% of his minutes in the four. And if that's the case, then I think the need for a backup power forward gets minimized of it. That's interesting. That was something that when we were kind of looking at free agency last year, I was saying, I want J-Hoff, right? Because if you can't find backup power, forwards that are viable, go find a stretch five,

10:16and then just consistently play Evan at the four, right? And it's one of those situations where depending on how you want to list things, you could say one guy's the four, one guy's the five, right? You can switch responsibilities on the offensive and defensive end. One interesting idea that Carter keeps bringing up it. And I think there's some merit to it. I'm curious to get your thoughts is kind of the idea of in those smaller, more athletic lineups, just playing James Hardin as the defensive power forward, right? Because he is someone that is able to kind of absorb a lot of those blows. We saw him do a good job against Scotty Barnes. Are you comfortable? Like, let's say it's a lineup where we're sams out there with Hardin and it's Mario Huzonian, Jalen Tyson, right? And you're basically having Hardin play as the defensive four in that lineup. I think that's something the calves can get away with. I think it depends on the matchups. And I'm glad you brought up Huzonian. He's somebody I should have mentioned to him in that previous answer because like they have, and I think he's just so much of an unknown having not played in the NBA for so many years. He can kind of be slip out of my mind at times.

11:18I think the Hardin at Power Forward defensively is a very matchup dependent thing. Like if the calves were playing the calves and James Hardin were tasked with guarding Evan Mobile or Jardalm. Like that's a no. I would not want that. If they're playing the Celtics, would Jason Tatum at Power Forward? Maybe. And I think that Tatum is a unique matchup there because he is not somebody I think that like thrives on quickness, right? Like he is not somebody and we've seen this at times actually to go back a few years ago where when JB Bickish was a calves and coach, they would have Jardal and Defendamard are frozen, right? Do you remember those games? And that was back when Dimar was on the Chicago Bulls, which feels like a lifetime ago. But I do think that there are certain Power Forward matchups. But it does to me depend on what the rest of the floor looks like. Like if do I want James Hardin defending Carl Anthony Towns, probably not. Like I think if he's going to defend a Power Forward, I would want him to be much more

12:23of a wing than a big. And I also think he needs to be somebody that's like, okay, that's like the third or fourth option for the opponent's offense. What I'm hearing from you and kind of what I've been feeling in my gut. And again, a lot of this is confirmation bias, right? Like anytime I'm listening to someone speak, I'm listening for the kernels that say this guy agrees with Justin or this guy thinks the same thing as Justin right now. But what I'm really feeling is this is going to be a season of experimentation, right? Like the calves out of necessity are going to need to try a variety of different things both on the offensive and defensive end. My curiosity is how much time do you kind of spend experimenting with one look, right? Like do you go in basically saying, okay, Evan's going to play a lot of his minutes at Power Forward. You got Payton Watson as kind of our primary backup power for the in a lot of these lineups. We're going to go athletic. And we're just going to kind of run that experiment for like 20 games.

13:24Or do you try something for three, four, five games at a time and switch things up and try a variety of different looks or adapt to matchups? Like, I think that's going to be one of the most interesting things. And this probably is going to be the season we learn the most about Kenny because how long do you stick with any of these various experiments and try these different lineups is going to be really telling because these are all small sample sizes, right? Like if you're breaking things down by 5, 10, 20 game samples, shooting variants at a whole variety of different things and even just a lack of chemistry can impact how those lineups are performing. I think it probably has to be somewhere in the middle there. And part of it is I just don't think that in the Eastern Conference, the margin for air is all that big for any of these teams. Like that's not a Cav specific point. Like you can look at all of these teams and I can count 11. You can talk me into 12 teams depending on how you feel about Charlotte. That thing they should be a postseason team this year and that number has never been that high.

14:24Yeah. So I think it's probably like for your experiments, it has to come into like the seven to 10 game increments because I don't know that you can afford to get off to a 500 star at the way the Cavs did last year, especially when you look at their schedule from December 23rd through I think it's February 6th. They don't have back to back games in the same city. Like that's brutal. Yeah, it's like six weeks. Like I would love to know who they made mad to get that type of schedule. Like that is a brutal break. And like the second time in three years too, like it's unbelievable. At least I have got to close out the year. Thank goodness. Yes. I have got messages, Justin from people that work for other teams that are like, this is absurd that they got that break. So I look at it and say they need to they need to rack up wins and you're going to have time for experimentation. You have to like that's part of what the regular season is, but I don't think that they're in a position where like two years ago when they won 64 games, Kenny could have thrown

15:25out any five man group in February or March and we're like, I don't know, let's see what happens. Right? Like they're the best team in the league right now. They can't do that this year because no matter how good they are, like I think that they will be better this year than they were last year. But I don't know the regular season record is going to reflect that. But the margins being so thin, I just think those are those experimentations and yeah, like shot luck variance, all that stuff goes into that. But I think those need to be kind of in shorter stints because you have to find what works. I think a little bit sooner this year. Yeah, it's going to be a delicate balance because I do think this team needs to chase upside, right? Like they really need to explore the space and chase the upside of Evan, Mobley and Watson and Jalen Tyson in particular, right? Like you know what James is bringing on the table. You know what Donovan's bringing to the table. We need the growth from those guys so that the offense can be a little less guard centric, right? That they can take pressure off of Donovan and James's shoulders so they can be their most effective because I do think they become predictable at times in the playoffs. But you have to weigh that as you said with the urgency of the Eastern Conference and

16:29how deep it is, right? You need to have that chemistry going. You need to make sure that the team is in sync because teams move fastest when everyone's in sync. One workplace keeps meetings, chats, documents and more together so your workflows like a perfect play, keep work moving and zoom ahead with zoom workplace on the topic of trying to figure out what that balance is going to be, who to prioritize and who not. What do you think the ideal hierarchy should be for the calves in the regular season? How should they be approaching the regular season when it comes to who we're trying to create the opportunities for, right? As I said before, you know what the guards are bringing the table and they come with a very, very high floor. Donovan is obviously going to be the leading scorer on this team. But after that, from a usage standpoint, I'm curious about which way Kenny goes with this. How do you feel the calves are going to kind of allocate those reps, playmaking responsibilities, however you want to frame it? I think, like you said, I think that there are three known commodities on this team.

17:34One of them is one, he's going to be an all in being a player like that's who Donovan Mitchell is. He is a top 10 ish player in basketball. We know that I don't think we have to discuss that. James Hardin is going to be an all star ish player this year, even at his age, like he's still that good. Jerodown is going to be who Jerodown is, which is a really, really awesome player. The right year he can be an all star with how good the east is this year. I'm not sure that's going to be in the cards. Yeah, I have been mowbly could be an all NBA player again or he could not be. I don't know. I don't know what we're going to get from Evan Mowbly. Peyton Watson could be an all star caliber player. He could not be. I'm not entirely sure. Jalen Tyson could be an all star caliber player. He could not be. I don't know. So I look at those three guys in particular and say, yeah, you know what you're getting from Donovan from James from Jared, but I think they need to do it. It's in the order that I said, I think that they need to try and maximize how much they can get from Evan Mowbly. Peyton Watson and Jalen Tyson because if Evan Mowbly is the guy that he was in the regular season and he got hurt in the postseason, he had a really bad ankle spray in the year

18:35they lost in the pastures. Like I don't read anything into that performance. But the guy he was in the regular season that year was awesome. He was second team all NBA defensive player of the year, which like probably not going to happen as long as Victor Wattman, I'm a play 65 game. Just going to be real about that. But he can still be defensive player of the year level type guy. If he can be that be all NBA like the cabs are going to be great. If he can be that type of guy, the cabs are going to be great in a title threat, like a true legitimate title threat. But they need to help him get there. And one of the things that I do wonder, I'm curious where you come out on this because we have seen this before Justin, not necessarily this, but we have seen Donovan and Evan split up before. We've seen them together. They've had success both ways. Where are you at on what that pairing should be? Because I come into this kind of curious if the right answer for Kenny Ackinson and this coaching staff is to maybe have James Harden try and help maximize who Evan Mobile can be.

19:35That's something they didn't have the ability to do last year often. And like trying to throw things together in February was tough. And the cabs deserve a ton of credit for being as good as they were out from the trade of the line. But I look at that and think James might be able to maximize Evan in a way that they haven't quite been able to do. And I think that could be a very big key for them. I think that there's definitely a case for that, right? Particularly if you want Evan to be the most efficient version of himself. That's too funny when you look at kind of the pick and roll numbers. The Evan James duo not only scored more points, but was more efficient than the James and Jared combination, which was unbelievable, right? For that stretch of year after the trade, the chemistry was so automatic. Mobiles, I think even though Jared's a better screen set or more traditional role man, James's ability to cut and James's ability to find those kinds of players, I think really, really worked well with one another. And I think you even saw that in that stretch where Donovan was out in Jalen Tyson was kind of playing a shooting guard.

20:35There's a lot of kind of that he was screening for James or cutting off ball. And before he got banged up and he wasn't moving as well, like James is just so good at finding those opportunities. I do lean towards going back to Donovan with Evan and the reason for it is this. Especially with no proven backup point guard on the roster and probably all three candidates are more combo guards than true point guards, whether it's Tyrese Proctor, Malik Thomas or Craig Porter Jr. Those guys are combo guards. They are not traditional point guards. I think without a traditional point guard, I want to get as many playmaking reps for Evan Mobile as possible. And even though it's not as easy for him as the possessions he would be getting alongside of James, I think the growth over a regular season of feeding those types of opportunities is more valuable than the regular season production for Evan Mobile. And I think we saw some of that in the regular or in the playoffs last year.

21:36They were able to generate off. And it's pretty well when they went to Evan. But I just think this team got more guard centric on paper when I look at this off season because Max Truce brought really good secondary playmaking to the table. Dennis Schroeder is a traditional point guardie, at least in the modern sense. You lost a lot of guys that could dribble and create. You need to really generate front court playmaking and you need to develop front court playmaking. I think the players most capable of adding that to their game or Evan Mobile and Jalen Tyson. So for that reason, I think I would want to see all three of those guys out there together. I want Jalen almost as tied to Donovan as Evan in those staggered lineups. I want to see Jalen function as the offensively at least as the backup shooting guard. Get him some ball handling reps. Continue to get Donovan easy opportunities off ball. You can have Sam out there too. He can play as a small forward, at least offensively switch responsibilities on defense or whatever

22:37the case may be. But I think for that reason, I'm pairing Evan Mobile with Donovan Mitchell. I think that is a good point. And as long as they're committed to doing that, I think it does make sense. But I think that that's something we need to see in action a little bit more. Because Evan is a great playmaker. He's an awesome pastor. And that's probably the part of his game that doesn't get the credit that it deserves. And his assist numbers have grown a little bit. It's not going to be, it's not going to blow anybody out of the water. But I do think that is something in Evan's game that the Cavs can't unlock a little bit more. And I also think it's kind of what's the goal for what do the Cavs want Evan to look like? And to be somebody that can go out there and up his scoring average from 18 to 23, 24 points a game. If that's the case, then I do think James Harnes the answer. If they want to unlock this playmaking fulcrum, then I do think having him with Donovan Mitchell makes more sense. Yeah, I agree with that. And I look at Evan's averages the last couple of years. If you want him to be like a 2010 and four guy, just have him play the same minutes as

23:38like a normal starter in the NBA, right? The Kenyus kept the minutes down for these guys so much. If he's up at 34 minutes per game, he's going to be averaging that, right? But I agree with you that the pairing makes the most sense if that is how you're going to deploy him, right? Like if you're trying to foster those reps and you're trying to develop that, I didn't love how they were deploying Evan to start last year where it just kind of felt like, all right, we're going to toss you the ball like your brandening room 20 feet away from the basket. You know, you're at the elbow or whatever the case may be and just kind of create from there. That's not what I'm looking for here, right? Like I want to see him use like a Pascal, see, I come like an, and I'll whirford, you know, in his prime where you use him as a hub, right? Take advantage of it. The athleticism. I also want to see him work on that passing because you're right. Like the passing efficiency numbers are fantastic for mobility. But what you don't see is him pass guys open, right? He makes the passes that are there. He doesn't get adventurous with it.

24:38And that helps him keep his turnovers down. I think we're going to need to take more risks with the regular season. And that's, to me, that's a big, big part of what I want to see from the cast because while the early season schedule is really difficult and it's going to test your willingness to experiment, I do think you need to continue to see how much fruity is on the vine there. Yeah. That's a fair point to make. And I think that part of this is like it's a really delicate balance of maximizing regular season wins and maximizing who you can be in May. I think that's a really, really delicate balance. And I think that part of this probably leans towards May, but I also think that you can't put yourselves in a position where it's like, oh man, we're the ninth seed in January. But that also, you have to find a way to, and the calves historically have been great about either their, if they're competitive, they're going to be a home court team in the first round. If they're not, they're not going to be in the playoffs.

25:39Like they've been really good historically as a franchise of that. So like I'm still expecting them to be a top four seed in the Eastern Conference. But I also think that the journey to the postseason needs to be more about immediate success maybe just out of necessity too. You are swaying me a little bit because I agree with you. I do legitimately believe there's six or seven teams that can make it out of the East, just understanding the way that shooting variance has changed. What a playoff series can be in 2026 and 2027 and injuries and just how competitive all these teams are on the top end talent in the East. I really do think there are that many teams that can make it out. Maybe the answer is trying to find a balance and almost prioritizing guys at different stages of the season. Like maybe to start the season, it's all right, pain. We're just getting you comfortable with Donovan and James. As a small forwarding, the starting lineup, you're going to be spotting up.

26:39You're going to be cutting, go out there, be active on defense, create transition opportunities. Let's play with pace and athleticism and that's the messaging you provide with them. The nuts and bolts of what you're experimenting with at the start of the year is, we're going to get these mobile playmaking reps. We're getting it with the starters and we're really emphasizing it with the bench. As the season progresses and you're building off of that foundation, it's, now, Jaylen, we're going to start for a month here. We're going to start really working on you getting more playmaking reps. We want you to initiate more offense. All right, pain now. We're going to start developing you and just layering on top rather than trying to develop all three of those guys because I really do think the key to this season and the key to getting to where they want to go lies with those three players more than anybody else. I absolutely agree with that part because I think all of those guys, now, would I be surprised if Jaylen Tyson is an all star this year? I would be. I love his stretch last year, but come on now.

27:43We've seen how Jared gets short-changed just because there's so much top and talent on this team. But if you got back to me in April and it's like, hey, Jaylen Tyson was a top 25 player in the Eastern Conference this year. I think that's a believable thing. If you said Peyton Watson was a top 20 player in the Eastern Conference, I think that's a believable thing. No one's voting on those, right? That's not some more. It's like, oh, top 25 in the Eastern Conference. Hey, Bill Simmons is somewhere, buddy. I guarantee you those rankings are out there. I will be eagerly awaiting that episode of his podcast. But I think if you set those somewhat arbitrary goals, I think you can come back to it's like, okay, these things, these goals that you have to figure out the plan to get to those places. If all those things are accomplished and if you are able to find ways to gradually introduce more things and gradually add more responsibility to what everyone's role is, and if it all works,

28:47and it's a tough thing to do, but if it all works out like this kind of gets back to the original point that I do think there is a pathway for this team to be in the finals next June. If they are to achieve that goal, what realistically does it look like for those three? I think we all understand Evan would be the best of that bunch because if we're going to reach those types of goals and we're going to make an NBA finals, Evan needs to be either the second most impactful player or potentially the first. I think there is a space for him to be the most impactful while Donovan is still the leading score, right? But after that, what does it look like? How does it need to break down? Give me a realistic version of what those three could be. It's enough that if Donovan and James do their part, this team can make a finals. I think the first part of what you said is really important because it's tough for people to find people that are more complimentary of Donovan Mitchell than I am.

29:50And I understand that. But I think like part of this needs to be you and I need to be having a conversation in late May or what I don't know what day the finals start. But it's like, are we sure Donovan's been the best player in the CAHPS in the postseason? Not because Donovan's been anything other than awesome, but because Evan mobility has been just as good. Like I think that needs to happen. And I could argue that that was true last show. But like it went in a different way. I know it in a different way. And I also think it's kind of a similar thing. It's like, who was better in the first three rounds of the playoffs? Peyton Watson or James Harden? And not because James wouldn't be better, but because Peyton Watson was awesome. You could have the same conversation. It was like, hey, it was Jared Allen actually the fifth or sixth best player while still being good in the first three rounds of the playoffs. If those are the questions that we're asking, then that's I think what the blueprint looks like to where Peyton Watson ascends. And he is everything the CAHPS have been looking for in a wing for like the last almost

30:53decade. If you kind of infer what I'm looking at what I'm talking about here. Like if he turns into that guy, not saying he's going to be that guy. But if he turns into what they've been looking for, it's like, okay, considering the positional, how valuable that spot is, is that more valuable than what Jared Allen does as your number two big behind Evan Moley while still being really good? I think it might be. Is that more valuable than your second best guard in James Harden? I think it could be like if those things come to fruition, that's how the CAHPS can get to the finals. I think you're right. I think you're on the money there. Obviously Peyton Watson showed in spurts what he could do last season, right? With Nick Yokech out, you listen to nuggets people. They couldn't be more complimentary of them, right? Like this isn't one of those examples of somebody that leaves. And I think we saw that a little bit with the Andre Hunter where Hawks people were like, it's a good fit. But you're going to be underwhelmed some nights, right? Like I think there was a real sense that Peyton Watson has this really, really exciting

31:54upside and future ahead of them, which again, it's a big part of why it's really comfortable giving up that first round pick, right? Like this is a guy that's younger than Evan Moley that has a ton of upside, right? You have this off ramp to some extent to shoulder some of the responsibility and shift that over to these younger guys. What I'm really, really curious about with this group is just how realistic it is to truly develop those three guys within this regular season, right? Like do you have any concerns about how possible it is to achieve the balance that is necessary in order for this team to achieve its goals? I think so because again, you have to prioritize winning. And one of the things, and I have said this about Evan Moley a number of times, one of the things that I think has been most impressive about his career is that he has done this while always being on a good team. He's never once been on a bad team in his NBA career.

32:55And look at some of the guys in his draft class. Like Kate Cunningham is freaking awesome. But you know what Kate Cunningham got to do? He got to learn how to do all this stuff while the pistons were winning 14 games and were the worst team in basketball. And if he failed, he could learn from that failure, but there weren't really consequences to like, oh, we lost. This doesn't matter. The calves are not going to be in that spot. There are consequences to this not working out. And that is why I think it is difficult to balance that development versus like, hey, we're the seven seed right now. Like they have to find a happy medium to like, we are prioritizing winning games, but we're also able to get paid and wants a little bit more, able to give Jaylen Tyson a little bit more, able to like watch Evan Moley get back to being an all-in-be a player. Like they need to find a way to do both. And I do think it's fair to be like, hey, this is a, it's not the largest needle in the world to thread. I agree with that. I'm curious to see like it's funny because they've operated the same way for so many years

33:58here, right? Like you going back to what you were talking about earlier, they'd always have one elite guard on the floor and they'd always have one elite big on the floor, right? And James Harden slotted in. It was very much the same, right? Your wings were Sam with a bad hand, Jaylen Tyson with a bad foot and Max coming back from a surgery, right? You were really, really reliant on that. I'm just very curious to see as it shifts to a different reality where, all right, now we're trying to develop a true small Ford. Now we're trying to develop Jaylen Tyson. Now we really understand we saw Evan take a step forward in the playoffs. Let's get playoff Evan Moley here and take a step beyond that to get where we need to go. It leads me to this question and Carter and I were discussing it. So if you don't have an answer, that's okay because we weren't even very positive on it. What should this identity, what should the identity of this team be now that they do have a different roster construction? Like what if they want to achieve their goals, they're going to have to forge a new identity

35:01that's different than the way they've played the last couple of years. What do you think that identity and balance is? That's a great question. I mean, they have always said that there are defense first team, which I have not believed to be true for the past couple of years. It's hard to sell me. I'm like, oh no, we're a defense first team when you are quite literally the best offense in NBA history. So I do think that their identity, considering who their guards are, is probably going to lean a little bit more towards offense. They should be a top five offense again in basketball this year. I think that with James Hardin, with Donovan Mitchell, they should be a top five offense provided health and good shot variance, which they did not have either of those things last year, which is why they took a step back or as big of a step back offensively as they did from two years ago. But I do think adding Peyton Watson and Jayland Tyson going into year three gives them a little bit more room to be a little bit more balanced.

36:01Like I do look at them defensively where they were not a very good defensive team. They were okay. They were a bad defensive team during the regular season last year. But I think that they can and should be a better defensive team this upcoming season than they were last year. And I think part of that is Peyton Watson's a two way guy. I have a Moby's a two way guy. Jared Allen is a two way guy. Like I don't think that they have and I think this is a really important thing for the playoffs. I don't think they have very many guys that you look at and say that guy is only a one way player. And those guys exist. They exist on every team. But I don't think that the calves have maybe as many of them as you would have thought in years past. And I think that is something that can I think if you're looking for an identity, it's still going to be offense. But I think it should be offense with more of a defensive punch than what they've had. Yeah, I agree with that right. And I think when they won 64 games, you largely saw that right? Like they definitely leaned offense and there were concerning signs with the defense right particularly when they were playing teams with a lot of pace and okay, well, how's it going

37:05to hold up when teams are really going out to the soft switching it and that sort of thing. And we saw those kind of micro issues pop up in the playoffs. But structurally, it felt a lot more sound than it did last year, right? And obviously I haven't missing a bunch of time was a big part of that. But I agree with you. I think you need to get back to that balance. It does need to be part of the foundation. And then we'll see what they get from some of these unknown guys, right? Like does Nick want to come and take a step forward, right? And I think the interesting thing is a lot of those guys are counting on taking a step forward. Do project to potentially be two way guys, right? Like Malik Thomas does have some good defensive instincts. Nick want to win while he's recognition of what's going on there is an always the strongest. He does have the athleticism and he can make some impact plays on the defensive end, right? And we'll see. I'm personally excited about Malik Thomas being the next Devon Booker, but you know, that's for another podcast another day. We'll see how this all shakes out. But I think you're on the money of trying to get back to that two way play in that identity

38:08that they had before. I mean, I was excited with Malik Thomas and Summer League. I think we all were like, he popped off the screen, man. Watching him was fun. I didn't the next Devon Booker might be a bit aggressive. I mean, personally, what really might be aggressive, but I'm excited about that. You know, I'm excited about it too. I'm excited about the unknowns. But there are no unknowns when I have you on this here podcast, Annie. I know you're always bringing it. I appreciate it. Let the people know what you got going on before get you out of here. You can find me over at Lockdown Caves. We're back to being every single day talking about your Cleveland Cavaliers media day is just over two weeks away somehow right now. I don't know where the summer has gone, but we are starting to talk about the calves every single day. Again, we're done with the opponent previews. We're back talking about the calves. Justin is graciously agreed to come on at some point. So if you don't get enough of him here, you'll get at least one day of him over at Lockdown Caves in the very near future. But you could check me out there and over my sub stack inside shop. I guarantee that people have got enough of me. My own damn co-host is gone off of me.

39:09That's why he keeps running out of town running and stepping in the country wherever he's going. He just wants to get away from me. But I appreciate those that stick it out. We really do appreciate you guys. Make sure you like and subscribe our videos on YouTube and click that notification bell so you know when we're going live. If you're listening on podcasting and want to support us, leave us a rating. We review, subscribe, unsubscribe, re-subscribe and help cook those books. We want to be part of Chase Downs exclusive Discord chats and they screened our other video to ChasedownPod at gmail.com. However you choose to support us, we really do appreciate it. Make sure you guys are staying safe out there. Until next time, go calves.