Bait and What’s Making Us Happy

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The world's still waiting on the answer to a very pressing question

who will be the next James Bond?

In the meantime, the great Riz Ahmed has thrown his hat in the ring.

Well, fictionally speaking, anyway.

He created and stars in the Wimpsical Comedy Series Bate

and plays an actor who's in the running for the role of 007.

But the path toward donning the tux and driving the Aston Martin

is paved with hurdles, family drama, relationship issues,

and most of all, his own insecurities.

I'm Aisha Harris, and join me today

on NPR's Pop Culture Happy Hour is Volture TV Critic,

Roxanna Hadadi.

Hey Roxanna, welcome back.

Hey, thank you so much for having me.

Lovely to have you.

And also with us is Jeff Yang.

He's a cultural critic and author of The Golden Screen,

the movies that made Asian America.

Welcome back to you to Jeff.

Always great to be here.

Yes, I'm very excited for this conversation with you both.

So in Bate, Riz Ahmed plays Shah, an actor who's

currently in the middle of a career downturn.

Now, he lands in audition to be the next James Bond.

But when this leaks to the public,

the social media reactions to the possibility

of a Brown 007 are just about as normal as you would expect,

which is to say they're unhinged.

And one particularly disturbing response

is shake Shah's confidence and sense

his personal life into a tailspin.

The cast includes Ghaz Khan as Zulfi, Shah's brother cousin

and right-hand man, Shiba Chatta as Tyra, Shah's support

of mother, and Patrick Stewart as himself slash a pig's head.

I'm sure we'll get into that in a little bit.

It's quite a bit there.

Bate is streaming now on Prime Video

and we should mention Amazon supports NPR

in pace to distribute so-of-a-content.

It's also probably just worth noting

that Amazon MGM Studios owns the Bond franchise as well.

So that's some very interesting corporate synergy going on here.

But it's probably not a soft launch or a hard launch

of Riz Ahmed as Bond.

Who knows?

But anyway, Jeff, I'm going to start with you.

Did you take the bait?

Hookline and sinker.

I went in pretty skeptical about the premise just

because there's a whole sort of cottage industry now

of Asians exploring their identity

through popular culture on screen.

You've got stuff like Master of None

and everything ever all at once

and shortcomings into your Chinatown.

And a lot of them have been really good.

But sometimes it's hard to say, well,

is this next one going to lend something more?

Is it going to expand that horizon?

And the fact is, the very thing that I was a little skeptical

about ended up being not just the core of the premise of this,

but the very fact that Amazon owns MGM now

and is the caretaker of the James Bond franchise

was something that I was worried about

because I thought this was going to be either self parity

or an attempt at, I don't know, gatekeeping.

And instead, it was this hugely subversive moment

that blended that question of Asian identity

and self-reflection and mental health

with this mythical avatar of whiteness for the British Empire.

I loved it.

I really enjoyed this much more than I thought I would.

And if it was possible of a season two,

I'd watch a season two of this.

Interesting, interesting.

Okay, thank you, Jeff.

Roxana, did you take the bait?

I did.

I like that we're using this.

That's surprising.

Yeah.

I did, I did like it.

I mean, I hesitate to put this out there,

but I do feel like Riz's work is particularly interesting

because I think over like the 20 years

that he has been acting and writing and creating

the question of representation is in everything, right?

Like, whether it matters, what is its impact now

versus its impact like 10 years ago?

How does that change?

These are constant questions and everything

from like four lions to the night of to sound of metal

to all the stuff that he's been in really.

Even the things, of course, that don't matter

to his ethnicity at all, like Venom.

It is a really interesting thing

that he has been circling his entire career.

And I think it is fascinating to Jeff's point

to use bond as like the filter to process all of that.

So I think it's really heady and really meta

and very self-aware in a way that is perpetually

like tripping up the viewer

because it's sort of like pointing at you

and telling you to remember like,

remember when we wanted Idris Elba to do this role?

Like remember when the internet was fighting?

Still wanted.

You know, I still wanted.

Sure.

I don't think he wants it anymore.

No, but I think we do.

He's quite older, I think at this point he just hop in.

He just got knighted.

Like Idris is actually fine.

But I liked that the series is sort of like

drawing us into those questions.

I also really liked that it's very funny.

Riz is very funny.

If you've seen any of his British satire stuff.

Yeah.

And I think him and Gaz Khan are an amazing comedic duo.

And if you're strapped for bests right now,

I'll take you on as a driver.

I don't mind.

Don't need any money from you, brother.

Yeah, I've got stuff going on.

I've got stuff cooking.

Well, you go cooking.

I can't tell you.

This top secret signed in India.

You ain't signed out in India.

I didn't know.

To Jeff's point of wanting a sequel,

I would just watch like a travel show with the two of them.

I don't know.

I mean, I would watch anything with the two of them.

I think there's a lot to like.

I think it is messy.

I think it is a point that it's messy.

And it might test people a little bit in the middle of it.

Yeah.

But I am, I am a pro.

Yeah, yeah.

I shared sort of your similar reservations about this.

Just because it does feel,

I do wonder how much representation

as a theme in work,

like how far that can go these days.

I mean, Jeff, you mentioned,

you know, some really great shows,

including Interior Chinatown, Massive None,

which are kind of dealing with these ideas of representation.

And I feel, I mean, not to play the Olympics here,

but like it feels like a similar path

I've seen with Black filmmaking

and what are the limitations of those types of stories

that focus so heavily on like,

can I play this role?

And honestly, I got a lot of like Hollywood shuffle

out of this in many ways,

the Robert Townsend film,

where it's kind of like, you know,

you're auditioning for this role.

I mean, it's not quite a one-to-one comparison,

but I feel as though that movie is also kind of zany.

There's imaginative moments,

fantastical moments, and there's things like that here.

And the question of like,

how much do I want to sell myself out

to do these certain roles?

And despite the fact that I had those reservations,

I do think overall I became really taken

by the story that is being told,

especially when it's not so focused on representation.

One of my favorite, actually,

I think the best episode is the one

that kind of just representation is there,

but it's not the center

and that's during their eid celebration in episode three.

And so, you know, just a little bit of set up here,

but like essentially in the previous episode,

Shah was at this museum event

that he got in like last minute

and he wanted to get the speech or whatever.

And at one point, a museum protester like barges in

and Shah goes, he just goes a little overboard

for the moment and injures this museum protester.

And so in episode three, it's the next day

and the family, his entire family's having their eid celebration

while his agent Felicia, who's played by Warruchet, Opia,

she keeps pressing Shah over the phone to be like,

you know, you need to craft an apology video.

Like you need to do this because this is bad for you.

This is not a good look.

And so him trying to please his family

as these celebrations are happening

while also trying to make this video

that he like doesn't even feel like he should be making.

Like that is fun.

And I love seeing Riz play a character who is kind of annoying.

He does a lot of bad things.

There's another word I would quote you,

but I can't because it's NPR.

But like he is, the fact that he has people

who care for him, he's very lucky

because I don't think I could be friends with this dude.

He's so, he's so self-centered

and also just doesn't really understand

the social contract in some certain ways.

And I love seeing that aspect of him.

He sent a message, half felt one.

Instead of it going green, it goes gray.

What does that mean to you?

It means your blood.

Really?

Yeah.

Let me just show you this.

Okay, I'm gonna ask you to leave now.

When it's really focused on him as a sort of self-involved actor

who is also dealing with his own insecurities,

that's for me when the show really, really sheds.

I do think that Riz Ahmed's performance

is such an anchor for the show in so many ways.

I mean, the whole cast is incredible,

but it's just super hard to make

hypocritical self-loathing appealing or even watchable.

And somehow he really does it.

And yes, I love the episode.

I thought it was such a great center point kind of a pivot

for this very short series.

But he kind of grabbed me from the very first moment

of his introduction.

You come into the show and he's basically blaming himself

for blowing this audition, which we kind of see him do.

And then there's this moment where he's talked to a mirror

and berating himself really horribly.

You should be ashamed of yourself.

You are ashamed of yourself.

Because you're ashamed of him.

Nobody, nothing.

Then the audio tag comes in to take off the mic.

It turns out the whole time he's like on this

hot mic because he has not actually been demiked

this whole time.

And as he sort of leans over to have the mic taken off,

he just kind of like places his head on the guy's shoulder

like going in for a hug because he's so broken and sad.

And I was like, man, that is such a tiny detail, great choice.

I was in.

I was like, okay, let's see where this is going.

Yeah.

I think there are lots of those little sort of physical moments

where however, Riz is carrying himself

or the very slight changes he makes to his facial expressions

are really strong.

I am contractually obligated to mention Leonardo DiCaprio

in every conversation I ever had.

But it made me think a lot about once upon a time

in Hollywood and sort of Leo's performance of an actor

who thinks that he has like peaked.

He's not sure what could come next.

I think Riz minds a lot of really compelling pathos

from someone who has sort of like lost faith in themselves,

right?

Has lost faith in the social contract too

because I know what it's like to have very demanding

immigrant parents.

I know that experience.

Yeah.

I saw a lot of shared, like shared commonalities

and how his family treats him.

So I think all of that stuff is really great.

I also think maybe something that's worth talking about

is the fact that this is six episodes.

They are generally like 25 minutes.

And I would say each episode is a different genre, right?

Like he's doing a paranoid thriller in one,

the Eid celebration, which is more of like a family drama.

There's almost like a Richard link later style shot romance.

Yes.

Also he and his collaborators are showing this fluidity

with genre and again, sort of making this implicit look.

Someone who looks like Riz can do all of these things.

This is not like model minority storytelling, like he sucks.

It is also just I think a really strong proof of concept

to say, look, maybe Riz is not going to be bond,

but you should be casting these people in your projects.

Everybody in this show pulls their weight.

Yeah.

Another thing that I really, really liked about this

is that yes, it is also immigrant parent story,

but the family overall is quite supportive of him,

especially Tyra, his mother.

During the celebrations, there's a moment where she's like,

I need you to help me, like don't leave my side.

You can tell they have this moment.

It is my day.

It belongs to all Muslims.

It's mine.

And she took it.

You know one thing she doesn't have?

What?

Her son.

Mother's son, they are close.

She's like proud of him.

She's like, I'm so excited you're going to be bought.

There's just usually in these stories,

we often see the parent and often the mother, really,

like who is very much like you should be a doctor,

you should be a lawyer, like the arts, whatever.

And we don't see that.

We see family that, yes, they have their issues.

And a lot of it really does stem from Shah himself.

Not being able to balance both his own personal career goals

with also being a family person.

But I love seeing that connection between them.

We mentioned Patrick Stewart.

And I enjoy how kind of chaotic that turns into,

he is playing sort of Shah's id, like all of those things.

You only have yourself to blame.

I'm trying.

Try harder.

Do you understand?

He's playing sort of like the inner self of Shah

in a way that I find really fascinating.

He's eat it.

Oh, yes, he's eating it.

Yes, it's a fun voice role.

We don't actually see him on screen,

but it's a fun sort of voice role that also is weird.

And that weirdness is what helps keep it fresh.

I'm even seeing a little bit of Boots Riley in here, right?

Like I just like, yeah, completely.

Boots Riley, it's like, like those types of filmmakers

who are just kind of quirky, weird,

but also providing that social commentary

that feels kind of rich and meaty.

I wanted to really go back to what you said

about family members supporting him and so forth

and his mom, especially.

And I personally felt a little bit like both seen and exposed.

Because I have a son, my eldest son Hutton is an actor.

And there's one line that the mom delivers

when she said it made me just internally clanship and cringe.

She says at one point, is work going well?

I haven't gotten a Google alert for a long time.

And I was like, oh my God, that's me.

But the other series that's out right now

that actually just kind of unexpected second season

that this definitely feels like it should be walked alongside

is Marvel's Wonder Man, right?

In which Yaya Abdul-Mathin II, the protagonist and Ben Kingsley,

they have like a really interesting and similar relationship

in a lot of ways as like Riz Ahmed and Patrick Stewart.

And the whole thing is also this treatise

on what it's like to be an actor and narcissistic

and hating yourself and loving yourself too much.

It's really fascinating.

One thing I did kind of wonder is,

did you all have a clear sense on what, like,

how famous Shah was before this bond set?

Because that was the one thing where I was just like,

how famous is he?

Because he's able to sort of like walk in the world.

There's a joke at the beginning.

It's again, kind of familiar,

but it's like, he gets mistaken for another actor.

Whoa.

He's not Dave Patel.

Look how short he is.

Dave is tall, strong, handsome,

I'm a Gujarati hero.

And it's like, oh, yeah, this happens all the time.

But I also wasn't sure.

Like, is he a Callum Turner type of famous

where it's like, maybe famous at the UK, but not that.

Like, was that confusing to you as well

or did that bother you at all?

Because I was just trying to wrap my head around

like how famous is this dude?

Like, he has fans.

He has like a bubble right,

which they reference multiple times.

But like, yeah.

I mean, I definitely don't think that he is.

But again, this is sort of like a tricky thing, right?

Because like, Riz has an Oscar.

He's been nominated for an Oscar.

But I don't know how many people on the street

would be like, oh, that's Riz Ahmed.

Let me talk about his filmography with you.

Yeah.

So part of me almost thought like,

he's clearly not meant to be as famous as he is in real life.

But I did wonder if he is meant to be as famous

as some of the other actors in the show,

like Hamesh Patel, who is here playing like his rival.

And people might know Hamesh from like,

station 11, or you might know him from tenant.

But again, I don't know like walking through the street

if people would recognize who he is.

So that again sort of felt to me like a meta commentary on.

This show is probably full of brown dudes

that you might recognize,

but it might like take you a second to place them.

Even someone like Gus, like he is a well-known comedian

in the UK, American people probably know him from Taskmaster.

But I don't know what else they might know him from.

So I don't know, that's a good question.

But I guess I just took it as, again,

part of the show sort of like winking at us.

I feel like, especially when you're talking about Bond, right?

Which I think historically, other than, you know,

Pierce Brosnan, they've generally picked actors

who were a little bit unexpected,

who come off as being like,

oh, I've seen that guy before in other stuff

that could be kind of similar,

but like did anybody really know who Daniel Craig was, right?

Before he was cast.

And the thing is, when it's a white actor,

people just give that elasticity like,

oh, they picked the right guy or they, you know,

we'll watch to see what happens.

But if it's somebody who is in that slightly more obscure space

and the person's not white or not male or maybe not straight,

I'm sure the reaction much like in this show

would be just hugely like what the hell do they think they're doing?

So I think the show is definitely playing with that on purpose.

Yeah, yeah.

Also, Calum is engaged to do a leap of.

So he has a certain level.

Oh, that's true.

I keep forgetting.

See, this is the thing, like, I'm not a bond person.

I've seen all of the Daniel Craig ones

and I've seen the earliest ones with Sean Connery.

I've skipped all the other ones.

I don't really care.

I understand that this is a British thing that, you know,

and I'm also very curious to see how this show translates

for audiences.

I do want to preface for those who maybe you're listening

and haven't dug in yet or just haven't finished it yet.

Bond is kind of in the background.

It's not the be all and end all of the show.

And again, I think that's what makes another thing

that makes this work is that it's there.

It's a catalyst.

It's not just about him being a brown person.

It's also about like, am I actually

meant to play this character?

Like, can I, am I a superhero?

Like the British version of the superhero?

Like a British Batman.

Yeah, British Batman, exactly.

Yeah, so I really dug by this.

I watch it all in one sitting.

It goes down very, very easy.

Riz has the Riz as they say.

Well, tell us what you think about bait.

Find us at Facebook.com slash PCHH.

And up next, we're going to be talking

about what's making us happy this week.

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Welcome back, a reminder.

If you're not following our show yet,

hit that follow button on your preferred podcast app

and stay plugged in on all things pop with your happy hour

adjacent, including what's making us happy every week.

Which brings me to what is making us happy.

I'm gonna start with you, Roxana.

What is making you happy this week?

What is making me happy this week is the upcoming novel

by Jordan Harper called a Violent Masterpiece,

which comes out in late April.

I think I've talked about Jordan's work before

and I think it's because it's what I want

out of television about LA,

but I'm getting in novel form.

And these are just really beautifully written,

horrendously violent neo-noir books

that really take me back to when I was in middle school

watching the shield and feeling like I was reaching something

or watching something super subversive and transgressive

and maybe not what I should have been watching

at that young of an age,

but I would hardly recommend them.

This one is actually related to Riz Ahmed a little bit

in that it is about a live streaming tabloid style videographer

who travels around LA chasing down crime scenes.

So it's about this character and sort of his,

I would say, discovery of a Jeffrey Epstein-like conspiracy.

That is a Violent Masterpiece by Jordan Harper.

It's coming out at the end of next month.

All right, thank you so much, Roxana.

Jeff, what is making you happy?

So I'm hardly alone in this, but I stayed up

and very early watched the return of BTS,

the boy band that ran the world and they are back

and just seeing them together on stage

and I think very specifically,

I'll just say my bias is RM, my favorite of the group

and he heard himself rehearsal and was not able

to actually do the complicated choreography

and dance that BTS is so well known for.

And nevertheless, he and the rest of the boys,

they just, there's such a breath of freshness

and innocence in a world where it feels like we have

so little of it and I don't know,

for that hour I was watching the reunion concert,

I was definitely happy.

Oh, yes, I love that.

That's sweet.

And I love that it is thematically,

completely opposed to what's making me happy.

It takes all kinds.

Well, thank you, Jeff, I love that.

It sounds like it made you so happy.

That is BTS, the comeback live and that is streaming

on Netflix.

What is making me happy?

So, Liza Manelli has a new memoir out called Kids.

Oi, to you here this.

But that's not what's making me happy

because I haven't read it yet.

I'm sure it'll be great.

What is making me happy is that it made me return

to the great TV concert film from 1972,

Liza with a Z.

This is just about an hour of Liza being Liza

in her prime and it's directed and choreographed

by Bob Fossy written by Fred Ebb.

And it's just her just being Liza.

And if you know Liza Manelli

and if you enjoy that stuff, it is catnip.

It is perfect.

There are lots of great songs.

She's singing, she's singing by herself.

She's got dancers.

But for me, the highlight has always been

and will always be her performing,

Joe Texas song, I gotcha.

Promise me it would be just us two.

And I'd be the only one kissing on you.

And the choreography is like peak Fossy, like herky jerky.

And it's Liza Manelli doing it.

It's both incredibly cool and not at all cool.

And I love it.

It is what she does best.

And that's what's making me happy this week.

You can find it streaming on 2B, Liza with a Z.

That brings us to the end of our show,

Roxana Hadadi and Jeff Yang.

Thank you so much for being here.

This was so much fun.

All these.

Thank you.

This episode was produced by Liz Metzger,

Havsa Fatima, and Mike Katziv,

and edited by our showrunner, Jessica Reedy.

Kaloa Kamen provides our theme music.

And thank you for listening to Pop Culture Happy Hour

from NPR.

I'm Aisha Harris, and we'll see you all next week.

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and more.

Treat yourself to the flavor and nutrition

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Go to Kachava.com and use code NPR.

New customers get 15% off their first order.

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