All Value Will Be Measured in Bitcoin (w/ Brandon Gentile)

0:00money is broken. It should save value over time and it doesn't. It can't have honest society from a dishonest money, you can't have good proof in the bad tree. Every day you have a chance to opt into a system that doesn't steal from you and that can't be taken from you and doesn't inflate away from you. That is priceless. Your time and energy on earth are finite. Why would I trade my finite time or an infinite piece of paper? That makes no sense. That's a terrible trade. The only finite thing we have that's comparable to our time and energy is Bitcoin. The white paper gives the Bill of Rights and the Constitution in a massive property rights to all eight billion citizens. One of the greatest discoveries of all humanity. All right, Brandon Gentile. Thanks for being on the show, man. John, thanks so much for having me. Absolute pleasure. I'm honored anytime someone asked me to come and talk and spew hot air about Bitcoin. Yeah, I'm excited to have you. I know you can talk about Bitcoin all day every day, so I'm excited to get into it. So obviously at Brandon underscore Gentile on Twitter and obviously hosts the playable character show on YouTube, which is an awesome show. It just tons of great interviews and Bitcoin content on there. So I got to jump into it with the first question, Brandon, which is, what's your

1:03favorite thing about Bitcoin? My favorite thing about Bitcoin is that it completely changes your worldview on everything. That's it's a problem. My favorite thing, but it's a very broad thing, but it flips your paradigm on what you think is real to be totally honest and it changes. It changes how you see everything. I mean, just from the political perspective, obviously it changes you start zooming out and realizing, oh, it's not red versus blue. It's the state versus you. It's collective versus versus individualism. You start realizing that this little world that you're kind of pinned inside of and and how the money controls your thinking for so many reasons, you know, we're beholden this paycheck and we can't escape outside of it. Well, why is that? Because the money is broken. The money that you've been saving, whether you're working with downloads or if you're a doctor somewhere, it should save that value over time and it doesn't. So people can't get ahead. So no matter where they are, they're trying to become an investment advisor and do their own day trading and stock gambling and fantasy sports that can see knows and all

2:04these different things while they're doing their day job. And on and on and on. So you start realizing this rabbit hole that it goes down. Then you start realizing, oh, the money flows. In fact, everything and the incentives. So now you're thinking of the scientists and all the experts out there and who is paying them off? And you start going down these rabbit holes of uncovering these layers of who is being controlled by this broken money because we know they broke a money. If you can't, if it's sand slipping through your fingers, you can't, you're trying to find any way you can to get more of it because there's too much month at the end of your money. And so you're not, you don't have enough of it. And you're always trying to find more to pay rent. The bills keep going up. The food keeps getting cost getting getting higher. And you can't figure out a way. Eventually, every single person has that breaking point where they can't get ahead anymore. And now they're taking out debt. Their relationship falls apart. Their family falls apart. They get divorced. They're taking on two jobs, three jobs. They get divorced because they're taking on three jobs. And they don't know. So like, you can see you do, you start infesting every part of life. That obviously affects every part of society now. And people are doing things. They kind of you, you're in this little

3:06glass fish bowl. And then you realize eventually at some point in your life, you look back and you say, wow, what, what life of my living? What am I doing? Why was I fighting with all these people? Why was I, why did I break up these relationships? Why was I voting these certain ways? And I'm hoping that a lot of people eventually learn or realize why that is. But it's the money that's controlling a lot of those things. So, you know, big coins helped me realize all of that. And even more, it's got me closer to my faith actually in all these things. And learning like the three levels, you know, which we can talk about more, but like the three levels to me are the political spectrum, which is where 99% of people live. And then the money changes or the puppeteers are like 1% of society lives there. And then, you know, a fraction of 1% live at the good evil spirits, which I think is the good evil spirits, you know, really fighting all day, every day, all day long, that control the money printers. And in almost no one, no one talks about that top level. We don't need to get into that level necessarily today. That's, you know, maybe for a different time and place. But if you don't understand those three levels of

4:07society, it's going to make for a very hard time. Most people are stuck in that bottom level. And so to your question, that whole pyramid, that structure, that three level of simple structure is really what was illuminated for me over last 10 years of really understanding Bitcoin. And maybe even 15 years ago, and I started understanding actually the great financial crisis, understanding gold and silver, the money changers, or, you know, the central banking, creature of Jekyll Island, all these things that started me down this path, that 5, 6, 7 years later in 2017, I started getting into Bitcoin and started reading and understanding Bitcoin and became very quick or early or became very obvious quickly that holy cow. Like this is the answer to so many the issues that we all fight over politics, the problems that people have, you know, the, whatever is government assistance, government growing out of control, the debts, all these things that we deal with. And it starts getting solved by the money storing that time and energy that people worked for. And, and then also people feel more charitable because now my money is going up in value over time. So if you feel more charitable, they can go do more with and help other people. I mean, you can see how like all these things are

5:09infected because of money being broken and incentivizing really this opposite way of living of like we're at the top of the river. I was explaining as a top of the river and you punch a hole in this, in this factory, this, this oil drum and you infect this river at 10, 10 miles down the river, everything is infected and polluted. And we're trying to like, you know, all these, like the 15 year auto loan, the 50 year mortgage, all these things, which, no matter what side does it, it's going to be either side that's doing. It doesn't matter to register blue. And this is that whole red versus blue. It's not that it's actually the state versus you. We're all like skimmers trying to like clean the river out instead of just going to the source of the problem and correcting that source can't have on a society from a dishonest money or you can't have good fruit from the bad tree. It was the same problem. We're dealing with all these things. 10 miles down the street in the second third-order effects that just don't matter. They're not going to do anything. They just kicked the can down the road, make the problem worse, quite honestly. A lot of time. And here we are. Well, speaking of making problems, where's the 50 year mortgage to me thing came out recently when we're recording this and just that news just came out. How is this not such an obvious symptom that Fiat money is dying?

6:11It's like, you couldn't afford a home, so you needed a 15 year mortgage. And you needed a 30, then you needed a 40, now you need a 50 year mortgage, just to afford shelter. It's one of the, it should just be like a glaring red sign that like Fiat money is broken and dying and just literally doesn't work. Take something like shelter and certain set into something that nobody can afford. Like you're saying, one of the negative externalities of broken money that degrades society to a large degree. And you've been taking a step further with, I think, one of the things that I was talking about with the Bitcoin way guys, we were talking about the penny that I think they've officially stopped making the penny now this week. They just announced, which was like a marketing thing that Trump threw out there like a year ago. They're going to stop certain coins being made and whatever. And it has to bring up like multiple questions to the average person of number one, like, why, how do we not need the penny anymore? And again, like, I guess there's a digital component. Also a reason that Bitcoin will probably win, because we're in a digital world. So like, it has to, you should ask a question like, why don't we need the penny? But then really quickly someone say, well, we're digital now. Well, duh, like we're digital. So we need a digital honest ledger.

7:11Hello, Bitcoin. But then on top of all that, the third question would be, well, what are we doing with all that savings? Like this is where I think the younger generations, I'll call it like 40 or 45 years younger, aren't going to put up with this lack of transparency anymore in society. This is where Jonathan Gruber, who I believe is an MIT professor now, still to this day, he's the guy that was the Obama carries coin is the Obamacare architect. And you remove Obamacare, you can say affordable care act. Again, this knows no side of the red versus blue, but it's socialized medicine. It's the government taking over the, this, you know, these, the state taking over these, these private companies or private industries. And he was the one that famously said, like a year or two later, like, yeah, the American people are too stupid to know, like, we had to shove this down their throats because they didn't know what was good for him. And it wasn't good for us. It was good for him. It was good for the people at the top. That's, that's the thing that goes unseen and unnoticed. And it's what you start really uncovering when you start learning Bitcoin and learning, uh, finite money, uh, in, in deflation, in deflation.

8:13How it is, uh, works in comparison to inflation. The only thing we know is inflation. Well, you never get taught to other side of the coin, which is deflation in, in neutral money. And so all these things, like these are the guys that are running the world, still teaching the kids of the world. And, and they, they don't believe a lot of what society believes, at least in my eyes. And I can't, I won't be able to find many people that believe how they, they think. And, and so that just goes to show you what's actually happening where I'm going with all this. So it was the lack of transparency. So Jonathan Gruber talked about the lack of transparency being a great political tool. Well, it's politics. And if you want more politics, and that's what you love in your life, you love arguing and getting nothing, you know, being done or solved in your life, then have at it. Like, you know, use that political currency, use that dollar even more. Don't get into Bitcoin, keep using your dollar because that's what, that's what fiat is. It's a political currency and needs political hot air and a bunch of, you know, desk jockeys telling you, you know, voting and the charade of like, what's going to happen back and forth? And like, and so that's the world we live in. And the point with all this is that where's that money going?

9:16That savings from the coins not being made, like to your point, the thing just being kicked down the road where that savings of five billion, 10 billion, whatever that cost that savings is, where does that go? Where is that going? And no one knows. No one's been asking that. The Pentagon hasn't passed an offer 10 years and we could go down the list. I mean, you know, John and I could make a list. I'm sure of dozens of entities in the government that can't pass audits. But yet we don't know where the money is going. I don't think the younger generations are going to put up at that much longer. And so that to me, like you look at the 15 year auto loans in the 40 or 50 year mortgages, this is again a symptom of we should be cleaning out society and getting out the gut rot, but we're not. We're kicking it down the road. Before the attic under the bridge, taking one more hit, just like, well, one last time, one last time and we won't take our medicine and it's going to end up worse and worse. Every time we do this, it just ends up worse and worse. We steal more prosperity from the future, pull it into the now and it will make the cataclysm. It'll make it all the worse as we go forward here. And for whatever reason, people just, they're slowly waking up, but I just thought it would

10:20be much faster. After the GFC and after 2020, after numerous elections in 08, 12, 16, 20, 20, I figured these things would happen much faster. And people just still just wasn't by the graveyard and we shall see, but it is definitely kicking the can down the road, like you said, and it's not going to end well. Like, why would you want to be in bondage for an extra now granted, we're in a debt-based system. So getting into debt is actually kind of the name of the game to a degree, but this is like, that's like the two or two levels. I don't know if we want to go there necessarily. But just for the average person, you shouldn't have to get into debt and get into bondage your rest of your life in order to get a mortgage. So it's a symptom that the money is broken. I should be telling you, the warning signs, hey, the money is broken, something is broken here. Why do we keep having to do this? Well, sometimes I'll sort of steal man, the idea of Bitcoin, try to steal man in my own mind to make arguments against it. So one of them was thinking about the fact that the idea of, what if we're wrong? What if Bitcoin is wrong? What if sound money is not the right answer? What if Keynesian economics is the answer? What if you have to print money as the economy grows in order to have enough units to go around

11:22or whatever BS they say is the reason? If that's true, then eventually we're going to get rid of, stop printing the nickel. Eventually, we're going to need a 60 year mortgage. Eventually, we're going to need trillions of dollars worth of bailouts. Eventually, we're going to need more stimulus. Eventually, homes will be $2 million on median average. It's like, it never ends. That can't be the answer. Right. I'm like, do we really believe that that's the answer that's going to keep going forever? So you realize, okay, there's no way that's sustainable. So the only answer, like you're basically saying, is keep pulling the wool over our eyes to make sure we don't see it for as long as humanly possible. The game of the money printer has to keep going to keep things alive as long as it possibly can until who knows, until. But I do think, as we probably believe, thankfully, Bitcoin is the thing, even if in society people won't willfully or volitionally rip the rot out, Bitcoin is the thing that's going to come in underneath and start to clean the rot out, regardless of whether anyone in positions of power, political power,

12:26will choose to do it voluntarily. It's wild because I've just talked to some people recently, family and friends, and they get it. They're like, well, you got it in early like, you know, you've met a great choice, and you know, yada yada yada. And it's just like, guys, this never goes away. You're opting every day, you have a chance to opt into a system that doesn't steal from you, and that can't be taken from you, and doesn't inflate away from you. And that is priceless. There is no amount of fiat or, you know, dollars you can put on that system. And that's what I think people are going to continue realizing. There's a video from three years ago of the FDIC, the FDIC. So anyone in here in America, the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation, which is supposed to be part of the, and I forget the acronym for the deposit guarantee corporation or whatever it is, but there's so many of these entities, right? Which governments, newsflash, they aren't there to create value for a society. That's not how government works. They're not there to create a profit and create value for the people and produce goods and services and decide to lower the cost for the average person.

13:28There is nothing. We're just bloating, and now we have to pay more for government employees because there are more of them, and they're not doing anything. And so this is one of these really polarizing things that people don't want to met. I'm sure those people like that feel weird that I'm saying that. That's literally, this is what the founding fathers of America knew. This is why they created such a small, limited government because they knew inherently its government is a necessary evil for a civilized society. We're in this world that is completely upside down and backwards because, again, broken incentives have led us to this place over decades of time. That's what's so hard to see with the frog and the boiling pot of the layers and layers of broken decisions because of broken money that incentivize those dumb decisions. And so it's very hard to see for the average person. And so the people that I was talking to you recently, again, they were just like, well, you know, you may as well as like, you can keep giving energy to the system, which you know you admitted to me that it's broken, there's so many things wrong, how do you... And I'm saying, hey, there is a way now

14:28like we discovered fire. Like at some point, someone had to realize, oh my... Oh, Jim has fire over here. Like, maybe I should adopt that. But we're kind of going around and just acting like, hey, Jim, that's a really cool thing that you discovered over there, but I'm not going to use that because you got it first. Like that's literally what people are saying. Like, hey, this Bitcoin thing, that's amazing. Like I get it, but I'm not going to use it because it's just like too good. It's too good to be true. It just, you know, so I'm just going to bury my head in the sand. I'm going to go back to using this thing that steals from me all the time. That's again, it's like the guy who's not going to use fire and he's going to sit there and, you know, try to breathe hot air onto his wife to keep her warm instead of building a fire and using this discovery, Jim. It just, it makes no sense. It absolutely no sense, John. Yeah, I love this idea of people being like, I can't buy Bitcoin, I'm too late. And that partly comes from the framing of buying Bitcoin, right? Versus what you just said, which is adopting a new technology. So Bitcoin is not an investment that you buy. Bitcoin is a new form of money that's better than every other form of money that's existed before it. So when you frame those two things against each other,

15:28it's not like, oh, I'm too late, I can't buy Bitcoin, I'm too late. Because of my ego doesn't want to be a buy it after people who got there before me, right? But like you said, change the framing. Are you going to be the Luddite who's like, nah, I can't adopt fire. Somebody else got it before me. Can't drive a car, other people been driving up, not going to buy an iPhone, but he's already got one. Like, I'm too late, you know, that's the framing that people get so mixed up in. And to, you know, what you said already to some degree of like, why this thing of why's it take people so long to wake up to this, to see the problem, they have to understand the right framing of Bitcoin. I do believe we're still very early. I think you, you know, have said or have this idea, which I'd love to get into of like, the idea that when Bitcoin reaches, you know, maybe 3% adoption or 3% sort of saturation, that 3% will carry Bitcoin to the rest of the world. Can you explain that a little bit? Do you even think we're at 3% yet? And then if we do get there, what do you think happens? Yeah, this is something I'm writing about, a writing book about actually, yeah.

16:29And it's about this concept that it's, we need 3% of just kind of historically you see over society that a couple, I rate, you know, for people who might know the euphemism or like the, I rate minority in order to pull the rest of society across the finish line. Because it's not, it's not going to be like 50% of people adopted or 100% of people adopt Bitcoin. And you're just like, oh, this is amazing. This is brilliant. You know, you can talk to a lot of, even though the OGs of Bitcoin, right? To remember having pure, pure sharp, talking to him at one point. And he was like, yeah, when I saw in 2012, I was just like, wow, this is great. Like the next year or so, like people are going to see this. It's going to be brilliant. And we're going to show it to the world. And he's like, cutscene, here we are. 10, 12 years later, whenever I was talking to him. And so you realize that again, it's going to take a while to your point. We're very early, very early. And I'll give you some context as well to go further on that, how early we are. Now I'll come back to the 3% thing. But the, like I look at like the Orange Pill app, which is now Club Orange for any Bitcoiners, you know, that's based, the sponsor of our show now,

17:30which is, you know, awesome guy. Brian DeMatteo, awesome guys. And a great way for Bitcoiners to connect to people, because again, cutscene, community is the number one aspect of a financial situation or a survival situation. So, or a financial situation. Community is what brings you up when you are lacking in something, because we don't know. Are we going to be lacking when something hits a fan? Are we going to be lacking in food? Or is it going to be something to barter with or, you know, firearms, protection, security, like warmth, like what, where are we going to be lacking? And will your community build you up? And so, the Orange Pill app are going to conferences or doing things like you and I are doing now and building relationships together, is huge because you're building with like-minded people. So, that's the first thing. Well, Orange Pill app is now Club Orange. They're a great way of doing that. In saying all this, Club Orange has about, you know, just under 20,000 members inside of it. And so, the reason for saying all that is, you think about, like those are pretty hardcore Bitcoiners, like if you're on Club Orange, you're probably a pretty hardcore Bitcoiner. Less than only 20,000 people that are on that. And you look at 8 million people in the world. And then, again, you could say, well, they're not two all the Bitcoiners of the world.

18:31Okay, well, you know, what, double it? You know, five exit, 10 exit. Well, just to say there's 200,000 people in the world that might want to be on Club Orange or the Orange Pill app. And so, you start seeing the numbers. If you divide 200,000 or I was trying to even do the numbers of like 200,000 or 800,000 divided by 8 billion. Even I think like 800,000 divided by 8 billion is like 0.0001. It's like three or four or five zeros, then one. So, and we need to get 3%. So, that shows you how early we are and the work we have to do. Now, is all the work need to be done by John and Brandon and Jane and Sarah? No, it's going to be true, you know, freezing truckers accounts. That Orange Pill, a lot of people, it probably Orange Pill, you know, 100,000 people right there. 50,000 people, then it's going to be the next thing. And then it's going to be this stupid thing that happens. And it's going to be priced going up a bunch. That's going to Orange Pill and other 50,000 people. It's like, we're going to keep chipping away and there's going to be these huge quantum leaps. So, over time, and then zooming out again, this 3% is like the American Revolution for, again,

19:32a lot of people that I'm sure generally watch your show or are American and for anyone familiar with the Revolutionary War, it was only a couple of percent of people who picked up the musket and said, hey, I'm done with this. We're not doing this anymore. And most people are apathetic. They're indifferent, they're apathetic, they have their heads in the sand, they're British loyalists, whatever the reason was. They were too far away, they didn't know what was going on at that time or whatever it was. They just, it was just like, oh, okay, whatever. So, only a couple of percent got up and said, I'm not, now, were there more that were for it? Yes, but there's only a couple of percent that picked up the musket and said, I'm not doing this. And so, things like this, you know, what you're doing, what, you know, the people out there, like on Club Orange, the big winners out there that actually pushing for the circular economy, they're educating, they're writing books, they're on stages, they're, you know, they're doing the podcast, all these different things. Those are the couple percent in the proverbial war that we're in and this peaceful war, fortune that we have of information, because now it's an information war. So, end of that whole story in giving context for all that is I believe that again, it's not going to be 50%

20:35or 20% or 100% we need to get to, because it never will be. Even the people now, almost no one knows the fiat system they're in. So, how in the world are we going to teach them the Bitcoin system? We're not. I mean, most people will just be using Bitcoin, they won't know, just like, no, they use dollars and they don't know how any of it works. And so, it's going to be a couple percent, like the Steve Jobs, you know, like a Steve Jobs or like these people that come and they create something, you know, that product or the technology or the discovery, that time has come. And a couple percent of society, that social layer, drags everyone across the finish line. And that's why I think the context shifting the over-tune window shifting and lighting a fire under people, whether it's people inside that community. And I know again, some Bitcoin are shriek at that feeling of like being in community, but you have to, you have to be, you know, there's the power in numbers and you have to join the link arms with other people who are like-minded in order to pull society that direction. And then obviously there is a legit couple percent of people that we need to orange pill, light a fire under them to say, hey, this is what's going on here

21:36because this is how we all got in. You know, this is how we, you know, the fire was already lit in us, but then it was stoked by us stumbling upon Bitcoin somehow and realizing, oh my gosh, this is what humanity's been waiting for for X, Y, and Z, for we all came for kind of different reasons to a degree. So that realization has to come for a couple percent of people still. And we're going to get there. And I, my, I think we're 10, 20 years away from it, which again, scare people. It's like, oh, it's not too, you know, but that's such a short period of time. I think it's the demographic shift that really changes. The younger generations are just not putting up at the lack of transparency. They're not putting up with this garbage anymore. And then when they start getting a wealth from the older generations, the older generation sunset because they're in positions of power right now, well, you're going to see this massive change over the next decade or two. Instead of sports gambling and going to Casino, all you have to do is save and money that doesn't steal from you. And be a little patient. Just provide value for society and be patient. And then provide value for society and be patient and stack sats in a money that cannot be stolen from you. Let's say that again, it cannot be stolen from you

22:36in cold storage. When it's in cold storage in your, you know, your foundation, you know, password core, whatever. So that to me is the story of the 3% and where we're headed and what needs to be done. There's so many pieces about the framing and why the differences in the framing make it, I think make it take so long and make people arrive at it so late. One of them is like you just mentioned, well, Bitcoin's not going to do 100x overnight anymore. So I'm not going to buy that. I'm going to buy a shit coin that has a tiny market cap that if it goes up, you know, 500% in a day, that's how I'm going to make money or whatever, right? Where it's like people don't, like you said. Yeah, they don't want to be patient. They don't want to wait. Instead, they want to do a seven leg parlay on draft kings and lose, you know, even if they win once, they will have lost enough to counteract how much they win. Versus, do I want to adopt a harder money that can't be debased, that can't be printed? That's the best form of money that's ever existed or do I want to be even later to that thing, right? Let other people, more people get in before me

23:36because like you said, I do, I do think we're, we're super early. I think the most generous estimate possible is that like 400 million people in the world have touched some form of crypto, not just Bitcoin, but crypto and still that's I think 4% of the world. So maximum 4% and in reality, how many people have any real amount of Bitcoin or understanding of Bitcoin is so, so, so, so, so early. So like you can still be 99% of the world to the hardest money and best form of money that's ever existed. Like how do you not want to, you know, come in and take advantage of that opportunity? It really is this framing of, I think, I think that a lot of the framing has to be around your life getting cheaper in Bitcoin. And that's this, it is tough, it's very tough. I mean, again, no one knows deflation. We've only known inflation our whole life. It's funny, like the last year or so I say, maybe year two, I've been saying to people that I think we're in a modern depression over the last 50 years since 1971 and that we're gonna look back,

24:37a hundred years from our 200 years people look back and say, wow, like they're in a depression. And then ironically, Jack Mallor Show, usually I usually catch his show on, I think he does it on Mondays. And I think I watched it like today or something like that. I usually watch it like a day or two, a couple days later. And he was, it's ironically, let's talk about, he's like, I think we're in depression. We've been living in depression. People wondered what 1929 was like, this is what it is. And his point was he had showed the charts of which, you know, again, many Bitcoiners have seen the charts in the sense of the dollar right now is ripping, right? Sorry, the asset prices are ripping in dollar terms. And that when you price them in gold, they're going like sideways to down. But if you price it in Bitcoin obviously, it's just like down like to zero almost. And so since WTF happened in 1971 is that website that a lot of Bitcoin is a lot of people talk about and they're like, look at all crazy everything since then. It's like, yes, that is true. But at the same time, that is the depression. The children out of wedlock, the divorces,

25:37all the broken everything going up since then, the company is just the acquisitions and mergers and all these crazy things happening since 1971 is because we've been delinquent from reality, from time and energy, which was gold and silver at the time. Something you had to take time and energy and capital to get that out of the ground. Well, now when you're delinquent from reality, and you can just print stuff into oblivion, now you've distorted everything you broke in the feedback loops, there's nothing you can bail out, too big to fail things, there's no can't clean up the gut rot or do 50 year mortgages and 15, you can't do that stuff in a world tethered to reality. So now we've been living through this and it's been papered over by the stock market going up in dollar terms or it's been papered over by technological gains. We've had these gains in technology and certain things that have really masked the gut rot of society that we're living through. Not to say that it's never happened before because that's kind of the story of humanity to a degree for thousands of years. But you had these periods that ramp up and the last 50 years have been a lot of that that's been covered over by,

26:38at least especially in America, really, really covered up a lot of the gut rot really around the world because of the dollar being broken, everything tethered to the dollar. The Americans are the last people to kind of see it and recognize it. And so that's why people like, well, people hate Americans, it's like, well, they don't hate America, they don't hate the Constitution or the Bill of Rights. But now we have the white paper itself, which gives the Bill of Rights in the Constitution in essence property rights to all eight billion citizens, all I gotta do is fire up a cool storage wall, a phone, or a computer, whatever, and they get those property rights that only Americans really had inside the walls of America. So now you have that, if you're in Vietnam or you're in Russia or whatever, in Europe, somewhere in Africa, you have those same property rights that can't be taken away from you. And that's the killer app that we have now as humans where you have that ability. You don't just have to come across the ocean, fly across the ocean to get into America. You can now have this world by having your 12 or 24-word seed phrase,

27:39and that's what the white paper was. It was basically the 2.0 version of the Bill of Rights in the Constitution. So it was segwayed a little bit off of your initial. No, not too much. That is so cool. I mean, you touched on so many things that are interesting to me, but I have not ever heard it put that way. I think this is, like you said, you're writing a book about this, but that is such a cool idea and framing of like the Bitcoin white paper being the Bill of Rights that insurance property rights for the entire world, not just Americans. Like, it's such a cool idea. I've never heard it put that way. And I do, I think we all have to think that's true. Like that is what it does. And you mentioned it being the killer app, because another thing I think about is you see like whether they be shit corners or whoever saying like, Bitcoin has no use case. Like, Bitcoin has no utility. It's a utility. Yeah. Right. Well, if you zoom out from crypto-shitcoin land and you, oh, you can't meme, or you can't spawn meme coins on Bitcoin. So it has no utility. Except for its utility as money, which just so happens to be probably the technology with the greatest total addressable market in the world,

28:42because it's one side of every transaction and there's hundreds of trillions of dollars looking for a store of a wealth not being debased into the future. That being the total addressable market that Bitcoin has a technology addresses. So like the idea that, so Tosha, you're with this nine-page thing that insurines the rights of that for the entire world is just mind-boggling. And you initially like the idea that Americans sometimes are like some of the last to see it because we have, essentially, this dollar privilege, right? We have this money that works for the most part. So it's like, oh, Bitcoin, who needs that? I have Venmo. It's like, okay, does every eight billion people in the world have Venmo that they have access to it and that they don't have to be worried about it being stopped and seized and frozen and stolen? Like, I don't think that it's just that simple for eight billion people in the whole entire world. It's such a good point. And it's, we, and in Glastine's book, again, Alex Glastine, this is what Bitcoin does. You asked me in the beginning, too, my favorite thing about Bitcoin. And again, I answered it in a way that kind of fits what I'm about to say, which is, you see that it's not red versus blue

29:43or so state versus you. Like an eric case on, Alex Glastine, some of these guys that, I've had the privilege to interview over the years and know and speak to you whatever. These guys were not people I would have considered friends 20 years ago. These were not people I would have got along with. We didn't come from the same side of the aisle. We didn't see things the same way. Whatever it was. We grew up differently, whatever. Well, now, 99% of the things we believe are the same, or 98% of the things. Where before, it was like 50% or 20% or 30%. And I always had this contention of what really struck me in like 2010, 11, 12, was that it was just like, you know, it's wild because 99% of the people that I could kind of see, or 95%, you know, Ish, they wanted freedom. Like people want freedom. Not just Americans, but people all over. And I was like, man, if you could just come around together on the bill of rights or the constitution, like you would solve so many of these problems. And we might think of ways, or you might disagree on some of these ways, and I have the Bitcoin too. You disagree on ways we're getting there, things like that. But, you know, just extraneous things. But we all believe we want freedom.

30:45These are very important things to zoom out and say, hey, 99% of humans generally want to be loved alone. They don't want the state telling them what to do truly at the end of the day. And I have other anecdotal evidence that I could get into, but it would kind of lose the average person. But there are so many things I've seen over the last 15 years where I'm like, oh my gosh, like it shows both sides are thinking generally alike, but this red, blue dichotomy of getting people to fight each other has really distracted from, again, that pyramid that we talked about in the beginning of going up the ladder and realizing all the people that are doing stuff are up here, or the next level, again, that second or the highest level that are really controlling things, evil doesn't want you to know that. Let's just say that. It wants you distracted, confused, in chaos, and fearful, and to not really be able to figure out what's going on. So coming back to what we were saying a minute ago, well, I'm a Bitcoin only guy. I'm a Bitcoiner. So that makes me a Bitcoin maximalist, sure. But I'm a freedom maximalist first.

31:46I believe, though, that I'm going to fight for and educate people on the fact that to your point, John, it should be Bitcoin first. And then if you want to do funding games after a Bitcoin has become the layer of society, the bedrock that we've built our economic system on top of, then go at it. But don't put the cart before the horse. And that's the big problem I have with all the shit coins and all the other shenanigans going on out there. And it's because, again, like you said, people are learning, they're waiting their way through pain, misery, loss, suffering. And like we all have had to do to some degree, and you've weighed through all that. And then some people get to the end of that that may sooner than others. But the people that are at the end, it's incumbent on us. I believe to go back and try to reach out to these people that are in the may still and yell to them and put signs in the sky. And they have the streamer about the top with the plane flying over like, hey, here's the exit. Like go over here. And then if you want to go to casinos and fantasy sports and you want to go do altcoin or whatever, whatever shenanigans you want to do after Bitcoin is that bedrock of society that we've built

32:47the entire system on, then go ahead. The irony of all that is 99% of people won't do things like that because they won't have the need to do that. That's the beauty of Bitcoin that the Trojan horse is that once you have this money that can't be stolen from you, it gets you get wealthier over time. You have more purchasing power over time. And prices are coming down and everything. You won't feel the need to do all these shenanigans. You won't feel the need to go get one more hit under the bridge. You won't feel the need to make some ridiculous altcoin spend your time away from your family, screwing around with this thing because you're trying to get ahead. A noble thing trying to get ahead for your family, but you won't need to do it. You just spend time with your family, actually. Go touch a crest. It's a wildest siaap we've ever seen as human beings. Yeah, well, your first answer was like, how it changes to lens on everything, which, you know, this whole conversation is about how it can change your lens on things, but like you said, it changes your lens on politics. Suck you out, pull you out of the, or everything's red versus blue. You know, I hate that side. You know, they're the ones that are evil. Pull you out of, you know, the gambling in this shit corning and all the things that you're trying to do

33:48to get more, get ahead in the fiat system and all the things that's fiat system wants you to do. And you wrote a piece on this a while back. And it's like one of the ideas that I think is the most fascinating. You touched on this earlier about the idea that, if you measure, you know, the stock marketer things or asset prices in gold, you see, that's not actually going up. And I think there was a moment in gold's rip recently where I think the time period is maybe 24 years. Gold actually outporn the S&P over a period of the last 24 or 25 years. Like it officially passed it to where you would have just been better off buying a shiny yellow rock than you would have the top 500 most productive companies in the country, essentially, right? Like everybody working as hard as they possibly can to be more productive, create more value. And because of the money printing, eroding, the value of the dollar, this shiny yellow rock outperformed all of that productivity. But you wrote a piece about the idea that if you old Bitcoin, the whole entire world is working for you, right? Like you are the one who benefits, it reached the benefit of all that productivity.

34:51You mentioned deflation earlier. I mean, this is one of the ideas I'm most fascinated with is the idea that not only do we not need inflation, we actually should be experiencing deflation and we're not because of Fiat money. But if we were, and if you old Bitcoin, you are experiencing the deflation and gaining the productivity increase of the 500 companies, every company on the world working to make you benefit from all that productivity increase. It's fascinating because there was the jokes inside of Bitcoin too of like Michael sailors, get some play in the month or Jamie Dimon or whatever, right? And that's the beauty of a positive sum game. It's a closed network with infinite potential. You know, it's always like in your time and energy on earth are finite. You know, your time here, you know, we don't, none of us know how long we have and when we're gonna go. And we don't know when we're gonna be here and we don't know when we're gonna leave. And so we make this trade as we're like a Charlie Munger or Warren Buffett, you know, like you would love to have been able to ask them some of these things in the sense of this trade

35:52because an investor, especially a value investor, should get this. Like why would I trade my finite time for an infinite piece of paper? That makes no sense. That's a terrible trade. And a very easy fundamental investor should be able to understand that trade. And the only finite thing we have that's comparable to our time and energy is Bitcoin. And so that's what money is supposed to do. So it's your point, and I'm jumping around a little bit here, but to your point, we've all become these gamblers and stock investors and all these people because it's good for the goose, good for the gander and the sense of all these guys at the top, they broke in the money, so they're like, hey, they run off everything. So it's like, it was great. The cantillion effect and, you know, like, oh, we're winning at the top. But the people down below because the prices are getting more and more expensive, they're losing the middle class and poor are getting crushed. But because we don't have a money that we can just store time and energy in, then you're forced to go gamble. You're forced to go into the stock market and be a gambler and go to the crypto casino and go to all the old coins and all these things and just go gamble your life away. And none of these people are professional traders. You can't beat the high algorithmic traders

36:54and you can't build people that are doing it all day long and Wall Street and all that stuff. So eventually you lose just like the actual casino. Like you might hit a jackpot once in a while, you might hit a little win here and there. That's just to keep your taste buds going and just kind of keep you coming back. So this is the problem of not having a money. You can store your finite time and energy and so you want this container to store in. So it has to be a perfect trade. The perfect trade is finite for finite, not finite for infinite or infinite for finite. So you put your finite time and energy into a container with no leak, no inflationary leak in it and then that can build up over time. And the beauty of this positive sum game and the beauty of the positive sum game is that we all benefit from each other. So Jamie Diamond going and marketing Bitcoin trying to get people into Bitcoin. John and Brandon doing a podcast, Eric Case on rating a book or Jeff Booth or whoever it is, Michael Steele is on stage right now. I think as we talk possibly or was like an hour or two ago, they're doing our job. They're their employees and we all benefit because then people are rocking Bitcoin,

37:55they're getting Bitcoin, they're getting sound money, they're getting how deflation is important for society, they're getting these concepts and we all benefit because the Bitcoin price goes up or the value of it if you want to think and value, you know, remove the dollar from that. The value goes up because the network is gaining more energy, the network is gaining more people to it. There's more products and services on it. So the network continues to grow and value and then you get into Metcalf Law and the value of a network and as it grows. And this is why when you look at it, Bitcoin is in the log chart and not a linear, like a linear chart your show is like just ups and downs people get like, well, what the heck? But when you look at it in a log chart view, then it looks like a network. It's a growing network of people coming to the network, the hash rate, the fundamentals, never been strong or never been higher, more hash power coming to the network. So all these things keep growing and it's underneath the surface and people can't see what's going on. And so that's what confuses the average person and someone like, yeah, again, not to say, you know, the Charlie Mungers, the Warren Buffs of the World, but just going back to this trade, this perfect trade because again, at the end of the day, if you're putting your finite time and energy

38:57into an inflationary container, which would be a container or a bucket with a hole in it which is inflation and your time and energy is leaking out to side, you go work, you put your paycheck into this container and just leaks out at night while you're sleeping and then you get up in the morning and you have to do it all over again. And then there's too much month at the end of your money and you have to keep doing it. Well, guess what? We call that the rat race, that's the hamster wheel and that average person never gets off that hamster wheel. They're in the keep, finite, they keep making a straight finite for infinite and so then they don't want, they don't get why, and then they're getting mad, right? Then you get mad and you're like, well, the system's not fair, we need socialism. Well, the system's not fair, we need mandami in a Barack Obama or whoever, we need Donald Trump to come in and give us free stuff and cancel our student loan debt or Joe Biden or whoever it is, right? We need these people to give us cancel our student loans. We need them to do 15 year mortgage and auto loans and blah, blah, blah, that's why this happens. And so once you can get off that hamster wheel and you start, like you said earlier, you start saving in Bitcoin

39:58and you start getting wealthier over time, you can slowly remove yourself from that hamster wheel where I always give the Titanic analogy of once you're off the Titanic and you start backing away, then it's easy to see the ship's going down. But if you're still on the Titanic, all you've been told is this thing's not going down guys, this totally fine, the ban's still playing and you're just shuffling deck chairs and we're voting for a new captain maybe, which is the politics game. We're voting for a new captain, like why'd we slow down? This is ridiculous, like can we get someone else to run the ship? And once the people in the lifeboat are yelling and you can hear these faint little voices in the dark water and they're yelling, like get off the ship, it's going down. And the people in the boat are like, what are you talking about, it's not going down? It's a US dollar, it's a US empire guys. This kid can never go down. You know how many aircraft carriers we have? You know like all the things you hear about like why it can't happen here? Well, then eventually four hours later, which could be a century later or four decades later or whatever it is, four hours it took to Titanic, takes a long time and then eventually it goes under the water and it all ends, whether you're in real estate or whether you're in stocks or crypto altcoins, blah blah blah,

40:58whatever it doesn't matter, it all goes down to the bottom ocean. It's all down 12,000 feet under the water and the big pointers are sitting there in the life raft and in that time when they're like jumping up, there's still like people are starting to jump off and then you still have people yelling like, well you guys are small little asset class, it's volatile and that big scary ocean. Like what are you guys doing? You're crazy, like get off that boat, come back on the Titanic and the big pointers can see it. They're like this is insane and they're just the early adopters. They're the ones that can see the first signpost or two and they're like whoa, something's wrong. I'm out of here, I've seen this story before and here we are. I've, you mentioned Buffett. I think he's such an interesting example. I mean, you mentioned like you would think value investors would get this, right? I've seen Buffett say quotes that sound like a big pointer talking about the debasement of Fiat. He's, I can post one today of a quote I have on Buffett where he literally sounds like a big pointer talking about how governments, if governments have a money printer, they're incentivized to always print their money and take on more debt and they will never stop doing that and that will always devalue the dollar. He's literally said that. And I'm like, that's what Bitcoiners say.

41:58And yet he's, works around the way that's like $400 billion in cash is sitting there, whatever, because he can't find a good place to put it. Yet he knows, keeping it in dollars is eroding its value for shareholders, which I can't square the circle on because it doesn't make any sense. If you know that, why would you keep so much money in Bitcoin? I also, or excuse me, in dollars. He's like circling Bitcoin and he just can't quite, you know, get there, put his finger on it which is just a strange, weird irony to me that you can't, oh, I guess there's the, you kinda said this maybe earlier, this, the idea that to get a man to understand something, if his livelihood depends on him, not understanding it, it's never gonna happen. And since he is one of the top 0.0000001% of people who's benefited from the Fiat system, he's gonna have a hard time going, oh, that other new revolutionary system that upends this thing sounds like a good idea. So I guess that's why some people can't quite get their mind around it. It is, that's exactly what it is. And it's stuff in this way, go back to as well,

42:59the demographic shift over the next 10 or 20 years of the older generations, sun setting, they pass away, got rest their souls, or they are out of positions of power, or their wealth transfers down to the younger generation. So I mean, could be 10 years, 20 years, 25 years, and something like that. But that to me is where you meet this younger generation of like the 30 to 45 year olds who will start having all that wealth come to them from the older generations. The older generations will not be in power anymore. And it's in, oh, so it's the transparency thing like we talked about, I believe, where the younger generations want transparency in this world now. And then on top of that, they want an honest ledger, not this ledger that's in a cloaked room somewhere and no one knows what's going on, where what's happening, there's no justice anywhere, the 10 tier justice system we're in. And so you have that mixed with this world of just a collapsing world around it. But then also on top of that,

44:00how do you, like you said, how do you teach a man who's livelihood depends on this system? And again, it's more or less of this, the last 56 years have been very good overall, relatively speaking in America, if you would look across all of human history. So again, how do you expect the average person? That's why there's a lot of the boomer memes and all this stuff out there, which, yeah, rightfully so. But at the same time, again, I have empathy for these because it's like, I don't know, they grew up in that system. It's like there's not much they could do. It's probably the people that really before them, they would probably, like the grant, you know, the people that are 80 and up, 100, the maybe people that aren't here anymore, that voted in a lot of this crap, you know, it was like the FDR, like we're gonna start doing socialized, whatever, the new contract, the new deal, like all these things that started, you know, the Federal Reserve, 112 years ago, like all these things that started us going along this path. And so it's people that are way before us. And then yes, the boomers lived in a time that was very good. So there's not a lot of e or a humility there. There's a lot of ego in the sense of unearned entitlement, which again, natural were humans. And you think like, okay, my shit don't stink.

45:02And like, look, I've got $2 million net worth, or $1.2 or a $5 million net worth, and like things are good, or to buff it, like I got more than 200 billion. Why would I go look for a new system? That doesn't make sense. And then they just shout down at everyone else, like, hey, just work harder dumbass. You know, like that's, it's just a different world, unfortunately, because right at the end of, my dad even said this recently, or in the last year or two, he was like, man, it's like really is crazy. And he's a big history buff, and that's why I am who the way I am and grew up. And he was just like, you read about this stuff all the time in history books, because it's like, it's wild that we actually have to live through it. And it's hard for humans to realize we are going through this to the point that we talked about Bitcoin being this discovery, this invention, all these inventions or technologies put together a protocol, discovering fire. Like at some point, it's okay to accept the fact that we were alive during one of the great discoveries of all humanity, fire, whatever, people printing press to we, all these things, people throw out. It's okay to say, yes, I'm worthy of that. And I think there's a lot of that, like almost guilt associated with it in a way.

46:03That's kind of where we find ourselves. And that's where the whole Bitcoin or thing comes in of like, on the lifeboat, we've got a lifeboat now. And these people are all stranded in the ocean, just getting knocked around, the Titanic has gone down. Maybe we can say at this point, and most of them just don't know. Yeah, they're not accepting of it. And it's just like, guys, get in the boat, and they're freezing. And they're just getting knocked around. They're getting exhaustion. We can see it show up in civil unrest, and it's just, that's gonna happen more. Unfortunately, saying that for 10, 15, 20 years, like this is gonna be a worse for, it gets better. And you hate saying it, but you know you're right, which really sucks. And it's just like, hey, can we do something here? Can we fix this? But I don't know, man. I think John, we need Max Payne. People don't learn unless the pain to change is less than the pain they're experiencing in life. And I will say, the 15 year auto loans and the 15 year mortgages, that doesn't help. Again, like that just kicks the can down the road. And it's just this injection of like short term, like, okay, we're not gonna take this pain on. We're not gonna make the change to Bitcoin. We're not gonna make this change to something better. We're just gonna keep the system going a little bit longer and just, ah, just a little bit more, guys, a little bit more. And then eventually you have some cataclysmic event.

47:05All of a sudden, it's just like history, humanity changes forever because we want to take our medicine for X number of years. Well, speaking of history, I mean, I know we don't know who Satoshi Nakamoto is, but I do think it's one of the most fascinating. Like, when you study him, they, whoever, whatever, right. And like the creation process and some of the writings and the things they said and the, you really come to understanding that this person understood so much of history. They understood monetary history and like what makes hard money? Like what makes gold money? Inflation, economics, finance, obviously cryptography, software development, all these things. And they're this sort of like polymath, understood all these things to combine all that into creating this thing. And when you have that background and that history of understanding, to me, one of the biggest things that helped me finally understand Bitcoin was like learning about gold and the monetary properties of gold that made it emerge naturally as a commodity money. There was no magic entity government that came along. I was like, you guys are going to use this shiny yellow rock as money.

48:05It was had, it had emergent properties that allowed it to compete in the free market of monies against other monies and defeat them because it was better as during value for specific reasons. And then when you learn Satoshi took engineered something to digital to have those same specific monetary properties that gold or other commodity monies that could sort of value have. And then you're like, oh, well, then it just clicks like, okay, of course, barring some totally cataclysmic black swan thing with Bitcoin, it's literally just monetary gravity. It's just like the same reason gold sucked up has sucked up value for 5,000 years. And to this day, gold can still outperform Warren Buffett and the S&P 500. Despite the fact that everybody in the world already knows gold is around, you don't need to be early to gold for it to still suck up more monetary premium, and more dollar denominated value as more dollars end up in the system. It really is. I mean, you nailed it. And it's because of that currency printing.

49:05One of the, one of the, one of the crazy things I saw like five years ago was a chart that Raul Paul, which I know of Bitcoiners, aren't a big fan of Raul Paul, but he is a smart guy who said, you should never own Bitcoin because in a bear market, you want to own stablecoins and in a bull market, you want to own all coins, so why should you ever own Bitcoin? Yeah, I mean, and it's funny, right? I think he outsmarts himself at times, which ironically, this is a really good point kind of fits in line with exactly what we're speaking, right? The humility of the, maybe of the younger generation, because they've got booted in the face too many times in the older generation. Maybe there's a little too much ego in entitlement there, but you know, a lot of, like to me, Bitcoin's not an IQ test, it's a humility test, humility ego. You know, can you remove, you know, the Alvin Toffler book from 1970 Future Shock, he talks about the people of the future, that will be successful, will be the ones that can unlearn, or learn, unlearn, and then re-learn. And you can see a lot of people, they have a hard time with that. You know, like again, go back to Buffett and some of the older generation,

50:06like they've lived their whole life like this. And so you're basically, to really accept Bitcoin, and to not just understand but accept it, you have to basically say, like a lot of my life was a lie basically. Like a lot of my life was based off of a lie. I shouldn't say it was a lie, because you lived it, but it was based off of lies, and that's very hard. I mean, that's, you think about that again. Again, but we've had to go through that. Like I've had to go through that. I've realized a lot of my, the things in my life, I'm like, well, but I'm 38 years old. I mean, I was, you know, rocking that in my 20s or whatever, like in my late 20s and my early 30s, so there wasn't as much time. Think of someone who's 58, 68, 88, that's a lot of time to then unpeel those layers and say, whoa, whoa, whoa, were all these things a lie, or a lot of these things lies that I was told, or whatever. Michael Siller, again, has talked about this being a lot of the economics, most of the economics, most of the things we've learned in school are pseudo sciences. You know, economics is simple, supply and demand. There you go. Class is done. That's your 101 class 202, 303. This is not complicated, right? Like this is incredibly, like a five-year-old could figure the stuff out,

51:06and we've made it so complicated, because that's Fiat. Fiat's a political construct, political world. And so you have to have a bunch of hot air, a bunch of politics to then justify and support a fake Fiat currency. And so in you talked about this earlier too, money was around before governments, and money will be here after governments. And to your point, that should be a wake-up call to the average person, like governments aren't here, they don't give us money. They only take money from us. That's, they aren't the genesis of money. And again, our generations think that government can just print currency into point earlier as well. If we would have figured out Keynesianism, like if we could just print a trillion dollars for every person, that would have solved homelessness and hunger and all these things, then we would have done it. It would have worked. But instead, we have hyperinflations, things all collapse, because that's not how it works. You have to have time and energy spent, and those units that come into existence are taking time and energy from someone somewhere. You have to have work that goes into money. And in value creation comes from people, exchanging value from each other,

52:06whether it's information, or it's I'm digging a ditch for you, or I'm mowing your lawn, or I'm making you food, or whatever it is, I'm making you an iPhone. Like there's some value creation, and then I either barter with you, that's how it started forever for a long time. And then humans figured out ways to then store that time and energy, they'll work, they put in somewhere else, and then move it to a different time and place, and move it through time and space, and say, hey, this is, in essence, this money here represents work I've done before in society that gave someone else value, and then now I'm gonna transfer this value to you, and now you get that. And what governments have figured out in central banks over time is they figured out, oh, I can you serve this, the Myer Amchial Rothschild, the head of the Rothschilds, of the 340 years ago, of I care not who makes the nation's laws, only if I control the money printer, I control the world. And so they figured a way to strip power from all the humans without voting for it, right? And so that's how they print this, and you know, these dollars is, fiat currencies into oblivion, and steal from all of the time and energy

53:07being spent in the private sector, from the people through inflation, through a stealth tax, that then accrues only to the top. So if you have a money that can be printed or currency, money can't be printed, money's had to be worked for, gold, silver, or Bitcoin. They have to be dug out through mining physically, or a mining machine through Bitcoin, and that's why the altcoins, cryptos, all these other things, they don't work, because they have centralized points of failure, whether it's like, oh, I've 32 validators like XRP, or they have people that control certain things, or you have different ways, proof of stake systems, where the more you have, the more votes you have in the system, that's the current system we have now, the fiat system. We, Bitcoin democratizes all that, that's why Bitcoin, Michael Sillard is in control more of Bitcoin, or he has more of Bitcoin, but he doesn't control Bitcoin network. He has one, he can run one node, or we can all run one node, we all have a vote in the system, he doesn't control the network. He doesn't control the decentralization and the security of the network. He controls some Bitcoin that are on the network, something you know, what he's holding, just like you and I, but that doesn't give him a ownership

54:09of the network or control over the network. And that's the huge again, one of the killer apps of Bitcoin, amongst other things, the hashing, it's shop 256, or the difficulty adjustment, some of these different things, that's one of the huge things, and it still confuses so many people, I was just explaining this week to a couple of people, that were asking really good questions, but they're just kind of getting into Bitcoin, and they're like, well, you know, it doesn't the government have a lot of it already, and you know, stuff like that, and you start realizing, you get it, it's a humility play, you realize how far we have to go with so many people, and it's really this humbling thing, where we have to come down and lower ourselves down to where we were when we started, and then start building up from there with other people as well. So anyway, that's, it's fascinating to me, just that this whole thing, is I think this is really, really important again, just the money, the time and energy we have, and then that value creation between humans, this is how we transfer money or Bitcoin, or sorry, money is how we transfer that between humans, and it comes from value creation, it doesn't come from the government. Money was here before governments, and it'll be here after governments.

55:09Yeah, well, we talked, so we talked about how early we are, right? So one of my things is like, we have no idea how long this is gonna take, how much up and down they'll be along the way, but what are your generalized thoughts on the future? You know, whether that be the fiat-denominated price of Bitcoin, or how much longer it takes for us to see more adoption, sort of where does your head add on that? Yeah, so I'll start off with what I touched on earlier, in the sense of, I think it'll be 10, 20 years of real, real hardcore shift in that we're gonna see here, because of this demographic shift. And I always joke, but I'm also serious that, I'll know when we have hyperbiquinization, when I'm a real estate guy, or I was a real estate guy for 10 years, and love investing in real estate and apartments, and things like that. So I always say, I'll know when hyperbiquinization, when I can pay my contractors in Bitcoin, they're asking for Bitcoin, the residents are paying me in Bitcoin, they're paying the entity in Bitcoin and an apartment complex. That's what I'll know, the society's healed.

56:10That's really kind of the end game to me, and I think that'll be 10, 20 years from now, I think we're gonna, I think it's, again, it seems like a long time away, but it's not, you know, like that, this goes back to like the way I missed it, you know, you guys got it at the right time. You know, guys, that 10 years is gonna pass, whether you like it or not. So what did you do with those next 10 years? I mean, start today, you'll look 10 years out. I mean, do it now, look today, and then look 10 years back. That 10 years, that passed. So what did you do in that time period? Well, you can make a decision today, you can differentiate what you're doing now, going forward in the future, but it starts now. It's the old saying, what's the best time to plan a tree? It was 30 years ago, or today. And so, you know, make the decision now. You know, choose to use something that doesn't steal from you, choose to use money and build in that world, educate on that world. And so, the thing I can say is I think that's the timeframe of a lot of hyperbiccoingization happens in the next decade or two. But I do think the end game, I tend to be that Bitcoin is money. That's what I don't tend to be. Like, I believe Bitcoin is money.

57:11It's the best money humans have ever discovered. So, I believe it's got to account for all the money in the world. And I think it has to account for all the asset evaluation and denomination in the world. So, the only thing is I don't know what that looks like. So, the people, you have like Jack Mallorz, who says it's 450 trillion, it's one half of every trade, which makes sense. You have the Jeff Booth, who says it's all 900 trillion of all the assets in the world, all that accounting for everything in the world. So, if it is money that has to account for every single one of those dollar accountings of all those assets, I don't know how it flushes out. But I think that's the end game. And so, I don't know what variation of that necessarily is. I'm trying to think of how to say that best. But the end game is it is money. Money converges to one. Bitcoin will do an accounting for all of that money, all of that value in the world. At some point, it could be 50 years from now or 30 or 20 or it could be 100 years from now. But that will happen in my eyes.

58:11But I still think we're gonna have, we're still gonna have governments around the world that in certain places, we're gonna have governments collapse and fall, I think, over the next 10 years, 20 years, 30 years, I think it'd be some crazy things that happen there. And we're gonna have governments that try to do wacky things with currencies, new currencies, CBDCs, the universal basic income. When you look at all the Argentina's had six currencies in the last 30 years, Zimbabwe has had a couple currencies in the last 20 years and one or two hyperinflation. I mean, what are we doing? So, I mean, if we think that governments aren't gonna still try to play some funny games in our lifetime here, then I think we have another thing coming. But in saying that, Bitcoin, again, TikTok, next block, every 10 minutes, it keeps doing its thing and it keeps, every block, it just keeps chipping away at the old system. And that's why I think it does happen faster than anyone's really think, which, again, it's not tomorrow, but it's probably in the next decade, it's been a couple decades where you have this, this true telling machine over here, next to this fiat clown world. And the more that people are educated on that, the younger generations that already, I mean, again,

59:13my children, a lot of children I know, they Bitcoin as children, they only, they know Bitcoin. They know what money is, they know what real money is and they know what fake currencies are, they know the difference. So what do you think happens 10, 20, 30 years now when they are in their teens, 20s, 30s and having families? They're gonna know, they already were built with this knowledge and like none of us were, like we had to learn these things over time. They already know that. And so that's why I look at like the younger generations versus the old and that's why I think that you're gonna have this accounting and that's where it becomes this unit of account, accounting for that old system. And again, it has the properties and that's what we have to remember. It has all the properties to last for thousands of years into continuing its anti-fragile, all these things can happen. Therefore, if we know this thing is going to exist, then it has to account for these other things. And that's where we're like the Alcoin crowd and the Goldbugs and Fiat Maxis, all these people, well they wanna argue with you. But it's first principles. This is not hard at all to figure out. It's going to exist. There's nothing you can do about it. Therefore, A plus B equals C. It's going to account and be a mirror

1:00:13exposing all of the BS on the Titanic over here. This lifeboat will not go away and it's going to keep exposing us. So what do we think is going to happen at that point? And then again, that's where I'll kind of leave it to the viewer a little bit. I think it's accounting for the whole system, the time and place of that happening and what that accounting looks like. But then the day it's money and money converges to one. Therefore, what do we think it's going to do at the end of the day? It's going to be either one half of every trade or account for all of it is somewhere in there. That to me, it seems very obvious. Even from eight, 10 years ago, when I really started getting it initially. And that's where I go back to Hal Finney, too. The last thing I'll kind of say on it, Hal Finney talked about this, right? It's binary. And that was at what, 2010? When he wrote that, I believe in the Bitcoin talk forums and he said, this thing's going to zero. It's going to 10 million. And so that's where, you know, even early on, it's like, hey, this thing stays decentralized and secure, which, you know, it has still to this day, 15 years later and it's still rock and enrol and staying decentralized and secure as social layer protecting it and doing things.

1:01:14And we're always going to have in fighting and battles and things to which is good. It's healthy, these things are good because it's anti-fragile network. And then we know, therefore, it keeps going. Well, if it's not going to zero, where do we think it's going? And the bottom is zero for Fiat. All of Fiat currency has gone to zero forever. And all of humanity, this has always happened. Every single one of them. So the inverse of that is infinity. And that's why you have the infinity divided by 21 million, you know, Knuss von Homestoff. And you have the, there's no bottom, there's no top to Bitcoin, there's no bottom to Fiat. Well, the bottom is zero. And so the inverse of that is infinity. So again, do the math, figure it out. People can figure out on their time horizon what that's worth. And again, I'll wrap it, I guess, with my world, I can see in the next decade or two, in this couple of decades of, hey, you can go buy, because again, when dollars don't exist, you'll be trading Bitcoin, you'll be trading your sats for something, right? For good and services or whatever. And that's for me, like I'm excited to go back into the real estate world and go buy an apartment complex

1:02:16for 0.1 Bitcoin or a million sats or 10 million sats or whatever it is. 25 million sats buys me a 300 unit apartment complex and then it's spitting out whatever, 100,000 sats per month in sats flow or whatever. That's hopefully kind of answers for a long-winded way of kind of the next few decades. No, no, for sure. I think that on a day or a week like this, where you're like, price is down a little bit, people are like 5% down, 10% down, it's under 100k, whatever. The perfect message to like come back to is, no, if you understand the properties of Bitcoin and you understand the history of money, A plus B equals C, this thing is a black hole, it has the monetary gravity, it's the tractor beam that will suck up the monetary premium out of other stores of value, it will suck up every other form of money as gold has defeated many other forms of money throughout 5,000 years. And the tie horizon is, if this happens, if it takes 20 more years, that's 36 years, is a blink in the entire history of monetary history

1:03:19for Bitcoin to start taking over that much of the world's monetary premium and value in that sort of period of time is literally, basically essentially a miracle at that point. We keep going, honestly, for days and days and days, I love talking to you, there's like pages of notes that I took on things that I wanted to circle back to, so I might have to invite you back. We'll do it again another time. Well, yeah, this was dope, man, I appreciate you taking the time. Thanks so much, John, I appreciate it, Ton. Yeah, this flew by, I could, well, to do it again, sometimes soon, because we could keep going forever. I appreciate it, Ton, man. Yeah, for sure. No, I thank you, everybody follow Brandon on Twitter, follow Brandon, the playable character show on YouTube, and thanks, man, I appreciate you taking the time. This was super fun. Thanks, John. Bright Orn mission. Bright Orn mission. Bright Orn mission. Bright Orn mission. Bright Orn mission. Bright Orn mission. Bright Orn mission.