AI and Law: FOMO and Practical Adoption

0:00This podcast is brought to you by the Law Practice Division of the American Bar Association. Before your program begins, we want to take a moment to invite you to join us at the ABA Tech Show 2026. From March the 25th to the 28th, Chicago becomes the Center of the Legal Tech Universe. Four days with visionary speakers, cutting edge CLE and a buzzing expo hall with tools that will define tomorrow's practice. This is where innovation meets the profession and where you get the edge to lead it. Don't wait to step into the future at ABA Tech Show 2026. March the 25th to March the 28th at McCormick Place. Visit TechShow.com and secure your spot today. And now we hope you enjoy this podcast. The interesting thing about AI is there's a lot of thumb-o if you're missing out that that's going on. Even in the legal profession, which traditionally has been a little

1:04less guilty of that, but I see it a lot now that firms just are grabbing AI because they're afraid that they won't have it and everybody else will. And all AI and all generative AI is not for everybody. Welcome to the Law Practice today podcast where you will hear updates on hot topic tips and ideas that can help you run a more successful law practice. Now this show is brought to you by the Law Practice Division of the American Bar Association. So that means the views and the opinions shared on this podcast do not represent the ABA or the Law Practice Division, but they are the views of each individual participant and any products or services discussed do not represent any kind of endorsement from the ABA or the Law Practice Division. Now let's get back to the show. Hi and welcome back to another episode of the Law Practice Podcast. Today we're going to be talking about AI. We're going to be talking

2:05about technology. We're just going to be talking about how all of that is constantly being discussed in the legal profession and really talk to someone who is deeply entrenched into technology and legal space and just how do you even start to sort all of it out because sometimes there's so much coming at you that it can be just information overload. So I want to welcome Steve Embry to the show Steve. How are you doing? I'm good. They're correct. Thanks for having me looking forward to it. Absolutely. Now for people who haven't had the pleasure of meeting you or reading some of your publications, the articles or hearing you speak can you give the audience a little bit about your background? Absolutely. I was a practicing lawyer for 30-some years. Hardener and A. What was then an MW200 firm made of Simpson. I think they had grown and they may be an MW100 firm at this point. I was a mass tort defense litigator which meant I had cases all over the country. As a result of that I became by necessity. I had to become

3:10conversant with technology and know how to use it and we've come along way since those days but I left the practice 2017. I'd started writing a blog, Tech Qual Crossroads and it wasn't so much that I dislike the practice of law but it was really that I like writing the blog and so I've done that and been a speaker and been actively involved in the ABA law practice division for several years and now I write, still write from that blog but I also write pretty frequently for above the law which is also an illegal tech media publication so that in that show is how I got from point A to point B. Gotcha. Okay, I love it. Now I will say you've been a bit modest because you didn't you serve as the chair of the law practice division at some point in that journey as well. I did and I was also co-chair of ABA Tech Show Board last year so yeah I've I've pretty much covered the circuit when it comes to the law practice division.

4:15That's true why they keep me around but it's it's a good division and a lot of fun people and a lot of smart people as well so I've learned quite a bit being associated with it and was really honored to have opportunity to believe the division as you say as chair and to be actively involved in Tech Show which is one of my favorite conferences that that is out there and looking forward to this year's show which will be coming up toward the end of this month. Absolutely. I do think that the Tech Show has been something that has been a great place. I have personally found for people who are tech enthusiasts, for people who are new to tech, for people who are just like I have no idea what to think about tech or where I should put my tent. I found that it becomes a great environment for everyone in the legal field to come to get what they need whether you're a beginner or whether you're deeply entrenched in it already. I find that the Tech ABA Tech Show is a place where all of them can come and get something of value so

5:20what was your experience going to Tech Show before like that eventually becoming a co-chair and now still working with the Tech Show. So what was it like when you went to Tech Show just as an attendee? I don't know. That's been a long time ago. You're scratching my memory but I would say follow up on some of the points you just made and I will get to your question. I go to all these legal tech conferences. There's probably four or five major ones. Each one of them has a slightly different vibe or feel. The beauty of Tech Show is the people that attend by and large are just very collegial, very friendly, very welcoming. It is a notion that there is no such thing as a dumb question and that is makes Tech Show unique, frankly, from the other shows that are a little more high-powered, a little more sales-oriented, a little more hectic, people more concerned with their own little silo. I do remember the first Tech Show that I went to because I was so impressed when

6:26I went with not only the sessions and the exhibit hall, but the people. In fact, I remember very distinctly that the year that I went, Tom Bolt, was chair of the division. So I just went up to him and said that you don't know me from Adam, but this is my first year at Tech Show and I'd really like to get involved in some fashion and he appointed me to a couple of committees that got me involved and led to where I ended up chairing the division myself. Who would have thought? But it's the shows changed quite a bit, but it's changed locations. It's gotten bigger. Certainly the technology has changed and how we look at technology and how ubiquitous it is in our daily lives and in our practice. But that core welcoming kind of attitude has not changed and to me, that's the beauty of the show and so you can come ask questions of anybody, talk to anybody, everybody's enthusiastic about technology, obviously, but they're also enthusiastic with

7:31helping people and getting information to people and helping others learn how to use technology in their practice and in their well firms and their in-house legal departments. So that's always been what's attracted more than anything else to the show. It stands out for that reason I think. And I think that brings up a really good point because even as you and I were talking before we press record and talk to many other people, it feels like there's so much going on in the legal technology space that like no one person can wrap their hands around all of it. I would say for someone like yourself who like said, you go to multiple legal tech conferences, you write a blog there, I'm sure you're featured in other publications outside of the blog that you write on this topic. So how has it felt for you as a person who is a tech enthusiast? How has it felt for you as far as the volume of information and stuff that comes out about legal technology?

8:32Yeah, it can get overwhelming at times. Particularly I'd say in the last well ever since 2022 when chat GPT first arrived on the scene and had ever since then it's that amount of information is just exploded. But I will say one thing about that. I am in a trial lawyers association and as part of what that association does is we offer a class and using technology in a courtroom for persuasive purposes. We have a faculty of maybe six or seven people every year. We do a two and a half day workshop. What I've learned from that, even though I've been on the faculty seven years, I still learn something every year when I go. Either from one of the students and these are all practicing lawyers out there in the trenches or other members of the faculty. The point being that I think we shouldn't get intimidated by thinking we can't get our hands around everything because as you put it nobody can.

9:36But together we can and that togetherness is through talking with people, sharing ideas, going to shows like tech show, being being open to listen and to learn and not feeling either intimidated and not wanting that you will never catch up so you won't ask a question or feeling that you don't need to know something or you already know it all. Not that there's any lawyers that think they know it all. It's not funny. But really it's always eye opening to me when I go to these educational sessions that how much knowledge we collectively have if we can only fully willing to share it and talk about it. So that's I think the only approach that you can have. I do try to limit what I write about and talk about to litigation-rooted topics since that's what I did. But even there there's so much that's going on. It can be intimidating but it's from an adoption standpoint. I think people just have to look at, have to understand the problems that they had with

10:42what they're doing and then look to see what solutions there might be out there that will help them as opposed to saying, I need to adopt AI and I'll offer that. Okay. That's probably going to end up paying a lot of money and not getting what you want or you might on the other hand you might see I really have a problem with turning in expenses for reimbursement and getting paid by clients. If that's one of your big problems there are vendors out there that offer just that maybe not just that they offer other things but that's identifying a problem and then going out and looking for a solution to that specific problem. Step by step I think that's how you can build a technology stack in your offer when you're in house legal department that that does work for you as opposed to sits there and it's not used or is to burdensome to use. I always one thing that I like about tech show is there's a lot of lawyers that actually attend

11:43many of them are decision-bakers in their firm just to what tech to buy. That's a little different than some of the other shows where you have IT people or you have marketing people or you have computer related people but you don't have lawyers and it's the good thing about tech show is the lawyers come and they ask lawyer questions not legal questions but questions that pertain to them that they know they have a problem with this now who can help me and it's that's another sort of distinctive focus I think tech show is so yeah it's you're right it's a challenge but it's there are ways to approach it that may make it feel a little less intimidating I think I think that brings up some really good points so if you'll allow me to summarize a few of the key things that I heard I think the first one was about starting with what problem are you trying to solve as opposed to just trying to adopt a broad technology solution it's just hey what problem

12:45are you trying to solve which I think is a brilliant idea and I think also it's just knowing what area you want to focus on even as you mentioned for yourself is you're not trying to figure out AI and how it applies to every type of practice area or every type of law it's just hey pick your lane and get more familiar with how that technology operates within your lane and then I think to something you said about the people which I will I can attest to that as well because I've really appreciated talking to some of our mutual friends about hey I heard about this technology I've gotten honest feedback from them what they said yeah that technology came out but it's probably not at the stage where you really want to start diving in because they already started looking at it I'm just like wow that probably saved me like several days or weeks of time to not be maturedly diving to something that's in its infancy stage so I think all of what you said

13:46makes a lot of sense yeah it's an interesting thing about AI is there's a lot of FOMO if you're missing out that that's going on even in the legal profession which traditionally has been a little less guilty of that but it's I see it a lot now that firms just are grabbing AI because they're afraid that they won't have it and everybody else will and all AI and all generative AI is not for everybody and you take for example a lawyer that does a talent work on a lawyer that does a talent work what he or she really needs is tools that help with legal research and eliminate fat eliminate hallucinations you take an employment lawyer or a trial lawyer or let's say a worker's comp lawyer their needs are completely different when it comes to AI and it's it's good to act in evaluate those needs as we just covered rather than just buying a huge package particularly if you're a smaller law firm if you're

14:50am law 50 firm then you know you probably needed all the bells and whistles because you've got so many different practice mixes but if you're a solo practitioner that primarily does personal injury law then you're looking at something different and you have different needs and that's the key I do yeah I really regret that we brushed into this sort of AI hype about everything for we found ourselves today because I think it risks overselling to some and when you oversell it leads to frustration and then lawyers are pretty quick if I sell you a tech tool that is going to do X and it doesn't do X and I probably will throw X out the tech tool that's supposed to do X out along with several others that it colors my thinking and lawyers are pretty quick to do that because we're born skeptics but so yeah it's wise to to tread cautiously and make sure you're getting what you really need so I will say take me through some of the way that you look at

15:52technology so let's say in your area of focus when new technology comes out like how do you start to either ease your way into understanding it or like how do you start to break it down because I think that's probably an area where some people feel like I don't even know where to start like I heard this thing that just came out in my area of expertise or my area of interest but I don't even know how to even start yeah and you know it is it is a bit of a dilemma particularly for those of us who write about legal technology because we can see a demo we can talk to the vendor we can listen to all their blah blah blah blah our ears but we don't really use the product in every day practice and and most of the people the lawyers that are using the product in every day practice they're busy using the product and billing hours or whatever they're going to do so it's sometimes hard to get a grasp on on reality with a lot of these tools so that's why I think talking to other lawyers is key because that's where you really find out does this do what

16:58XYZ company says it's going to do or not and again that's not to overly sell tech show but that's the place to get that kind of information is through a show like tech show where you've got lawyers bar association meetings any sort of gathering of primarily of lawyers and legal professionals is that's where the rubber meets the road with those people and oh I would encourage anybody to that's concerned and trying to find out something focus on lawyers and legal professionals more than the vendors because of be honest the vendors say a lot of stuff some of it is some of it some of it is very credible and very reputable but some of it is hyperbole just like any other product right is no different then it is it's also not only that they engage in hyperbole but when you look at the legal tech vendor landscape you typically see a lot of people who aren't lawyers

18:01or legal professionals who got into it or they were they practiced law as an associate for two three years and I don't mean to be that derogatory because many of them have taken their experience and been very successful with it but some of them really don't understand the marketplace you don't understand how decisions are made in law firms they don't understand the language that they need to use to explain what they're doing and that's a drawback and now now we've got so much money venture capital money pouring in to the space that fear that problem was could just get worse I go to some tech shows and go to an exhibitor booth and they're talking to somebody in the AT department in some law firm and they're talking AT talk right so and so when the AT person goes back to sell the product to his technology committee made up of lawyers in the firm all he's got is AT talk in his brain and I often try to tell vendors look you may be talking to an

19:05AP person but give talk in the language that the lawyers want to hear so give that AT person the the language that will help them tell the users of the product the lawyers what this is really all about as opposed to computer speak which you see a lot of but so it's it's a funny market because of the way it's structured where a lot of the a lot of the way purchasing decisions are made is a little bit different particularly in law firms it's not like I'm sowing to a company or a small business it's you sell it here and then somebody has to take it there and this might take another next step and anywhere along the way one person can pull the plug inside I'm bad we're not interested in that boom you've watched your and that's more true of course the larger firms and smaller law firms and smaller law firms you typically have the person making the decision as a person is going to use the product and that's so much different yep that makes though I think a lot of sense and I think it does give people that some good guidance

20:10on like said how to go into those conversations and I totally agree with you whenever any lawyer and even for my background guys in account and I feel like we're going through a very similar journey with technology in the accounting industry as well it's just said when you're talking to these companies who are releasing the technologies ask the questions on the terms that you understand or a context that makes sense for what you're trying to do because I will say trying to wrap your mind around all of the technical IT terminology will just leave you completely lost yeah and that's a good point a lot of times those of us that are technologists will listen to a pitch or what technologists are saying and be afraid to ask a question I don't understand what you mean what does this term mean it's because employers use jargon all the time too it's not unique but again it's not being intimidated and thinking of it in terms of they did explain to you

21:16what the product does in ways that you can't understand it and if they can't do that then what's the old saying if you can't tell me in a way I can understand you either don't know what you're talking about or you're trying to tell me something that's not true one of the other and I think that and I think there's some truth to that it's so we all tend to think that oh this guy's you using all these terms and talking quick and I'm talking about this that and the other and I really don't know what he's talking about I must be stupid instead I think we say again you have to tell it to me in a way I can understand it if you can't do then that then we have a problem either it's your problem or it's the product problem it's not my problem I heard someone once say and I was like man that is a brilliant way to approach it as you're listening to someone that is explaining something deeply technical is you can always bring it back to okay all right so let's say I have this situation how will what you said apply to this type of situation and it becomes the great way of asking them to re-explain it in the context of a practical situation that is very

22:24usual or typical for your firm and if that person can't really re-explain what they just said in a context that is practical for your firm I think what you said is absolutely true either this is a product problem or this is an explanation problem but I'm not going to make this a me problem yeah that's right that's right and one another for suggestion you can always take what they say and go to one of the generative AI models and say this is what I've been told would you explain this to me like I'm an eighth grader and those bottom they do pretty well with that I've actually done that several times for stuff that I didn't quite understand and sometimes you have to keep digging and you have to just like with the person you have to still don't understand and try again and they are actually pretty useful tools for doing just that kind of thing also now I know we could probably go on and on about this topic but I want to be respectful

23:24your time but people are interested in seeing the blog that you write or anywhere else you're you're speaking your content where is the best place for them to find you online the blog is tech blog crossroads.com it's easy to find there I'm on winked in easy to find that and my email is smbri at techballcrossroads.com always happy to respond to emails just don't email me and say you're South American they're getting ready but put 60 thousand dollars in my account I probably won't respond to that one but we seem to be getting a lot of those and I also write for above the wall you can do a search above the wall it's my name and on top of various articles that I've been writing there so I'm easy to find awesome I love it Steve thank you so much for coming on thank you for being a great guest thank you for having me I've really enjoyed our discussion thanks for tuning into the law practice today podcast where we bring you conversations and tips on how to run a more effective law practice now if you want to hear more be sure to stop by

24:31the American Bar Association website to see more updates on new episodes as they come out and other awesome resources that are offered by the American Bar Association thanks for tuning in