AFLPA CEO James Gallagher | Full Interview (15.04.26)

0:00There is a difference between knowingly lying and being mistaken. I don't think Zack butters knowingly lied, but there is a chance you got it wrong. Just as there is, a chance that Nick foot got it wrong. At the centre of all this, are two players who believe they've been hard done by it. The CEO of the Players Association is James Gallagher and he's with me this morning in the studio. James, good to see you. Good to see you, Tom. Timing is everything, a strongly worded statement this morning. Did the tribunal get it wrong with Zack butters? I think yeah, yeah, I mean, we're really disappointed with the outcome. There's no doubt about that. I think it would seem pretty clear that there's been a misunderstanding here. I know I certainly have misheard many things in my life, but I think it was pretty clear we're watching the 40 on Sunday night. You know, Zack and Ollie were obviously mystified at why 50 Meta Penalty have been paid. Zack obviously didn't interview immediately post-game. He didn't know at that point in time what the allegations were and he was pretty clear about what he'd said.

1:04Then Zack and Ollie obviously gave that evidence again last night. I hear the point that there were some slight discrepancies, but these guys are playing a highly competitive game of football. When it's come out of Zack's mouth, he's not thinking anything of it because he knows he hasn't done anything wrong. So I think for a tribunal to be confident enough to find that all of those things don't point to the fact that the words weren't said. Yeah, really disappointed. Have you spoken to Zack? Yeah, I have. What did he say? Look, we just had a good chat and I think it consistent with he made a very short statement but he's really disappointed. I think unfortunately the weight of evidence, which was in his favour, doesn't seem to have carried the day here. That's concerning. Is he worried that he's been branded a liar? I think any time a person gives evidence and it's not accepted.

2:06That cuts quite deeply. I know Zack well enough. I know Ollie well. These are guys that are really highly revered, true to their word. I don't think anyone's ever doubted that and for the first time that's happened. I don't think that's a good thing for all of us. What about the role between umpires and players? Do you think it's been unhealthy this last 48 to 72 hours? I don't think it's helped, but I actually don't think this is necessarily about players being umpires. I don't know Nick Fort. I have no reason to doubt that what he said he thought he heard is what he thought he heard. He was focusing on umpiring the game. Zack and Ollie were focusing on playing it. It's entirely understandable that that might be misheard. I think there's no doubt in my mind that that's what has happened. And those two things can be the case and the tribunal should have been able to say, you know what, we actually believe both of you.

3:08But that doesn't get us to a point of understanding and being confident enough to our powder charge. I think ideally what we should see is, you know, good dialogue between players and umpires. I think that ultimately helps the relationship. They're operating every week. They're out on the field. There's a lot going on. There's a lot of noise. There's a lot of decisions. There's a lot of emotion and energy. And I think if that can be humanized and there can be dialogue between players and umpires, that's a really good thing. And certainly our view is, you know, put the tribunal decision to one side. Shouldn't have got there. It should have been dealt within the aftermath of the game. Whether that's straight after in the next day. It just should have been navigated. The interest of party should have come together. So given that Nick foot is not allowed to speak to Zack Butter's after he reports him, how can it be navigated in the 24 hours after the game? Oh, well that, I mean, whether he can't speak to him, you know, on game day, there's ways of means to get around those things.

4:08They could have been pulled together. I understand there was efforts to probably try and do that. Yeah. I think that should have just been made to happen. So both sides were diametrically opposed and they didn't want to move. And they both still believe what they believe their truth to be. And that's very hard to come together at that point. It appears to me that the AFL plays associations' main concerns are procedural, though more broad. Can you tell us about them? I think with this one, when I first started in the role, almost about six months ago now, and it was really evident to me early that one of the major frustrations of our current playing group was around the match-reviewed tribunal processes decision making and the like. And I think what we've seen here, when you've got two players, respective players, give evidence, it's not accepted. It does start to make players uncomfortable about the tribunal system. And we've all got to have confidence in it. And that's the most important thing. And I do think this decision has impacted on that.

5:13What about the lack of audio and how surprised were you by that? I'm surprised, but I'm not a technical expert. So I take that at face value. I actually think for everyone, it would have been a lot better if the audio was available. So I know there's been some conspiracy theories about that. I think for both the players, the umpire and everyone else involved, I think it would have been better if the audio was available. I'm not going to bind to those necessarily. I think it's just, fortunately, the ways of technology sometimes. To what degree are the players lacking confidence in the MRO and tribunal process at the moment? I think there's a feeling that the deck stacked against them a little bit. And that, again, it's not good that that exists. Certainly had some conversations with the AFL around the MRO tribunal processes through the offseason. And I think we've reflected in the statement this morning that we said we'd watch it closely. And this is an example where again, it doesn't sit comfortably from a player's perspective.

6:14So we need everyone to have real confidence in that process. We need the players to, you know, the tribunal has a role to play. Players will cross the line and do need to be sanctioned. So this is not about how any time a player's in trouble, you know, we just blindly back them in. I think what this is about is we've got to have confidence in that process. And the players have to have confidence in that process. And I just think that has been challenged at times in recent times. I think the tribunal has been used more than it should be. I think sometimes a free kick and a 50 meter penalty are the right approach. Transgressing against the rules of the game can be dealt with in the game sometimes. I think occasionally in recent years there has been a rush to use the MRO and tribunal and the players feel that. You'd be aware that cynics from the AFL and also clubland would sometimes believe that the players association in many ways is agitating for the sake of agitating. How do you get through this and how do you make an impact so that the league listens to you and the players are heard on these concerns?

7:14Yeah, well, I think it's unfortunately for Zach in this case. It's about using these examples and trying to shine a light on why that raises concerns. And then for us, I mean the main way of navigating changes through collective bargaining agreement and we're about to probably get started on that again later this year. And right now it feels like this whole process and system is a priority as part of that conversation. Now we'll see what we get to and we're going to work through that with all the players. That's the main lever but I'd like to think the AFL has a real understanding that the players have got. They're the most important stakeholder in a game. They've got a vested interest in the game. It's health and it's growth. And I think they know that we bring that to those conversations. I'd like to think that. I don't necessarily want to be here agitating for change this morning. I'd much prefer to be really confident in the system.

8:14And I have players that have that same view. We're talking to AFL Players Association CEO James Gallagher who's only fairly new to the role. It must be said he's been in football for a long time though. We're to North Melbourne, we're to the PA before that. And plenty of other issues to discuss as well. We'll get to Lance Collard. I want to ask you about salary cap, the mid season trade period, possibility, and gather around the future of that as well. Are you concerned though on this Zach Budd has incident in particular that interviews post game will become less available for broadcasters? Because Budd has was honest in his view and then his story changed slightly and players in the future, even after losses might be less willing to do so. Yes. And how much of a concern is that for the game? Yeah, so one of the things I did in my first few months was in sitting down with the players I started to talk to them about what role do we have in growing the game? It's really important. We're partners in the game through the CBA. It's really important for the players to play a role in the continued growth of the game.

9:16So I asked that question and one of the things that was really strongly put forward by the players, we want to give more of ourselves. We're actually really happy to show a little bit more of our personality, to give a bit more perspective on the game. Post game interviews, particularly when you're in a losing team, are one of those opportunities. The writer on that, the major concern with that is when we do that, there are examples where it's used against us. And whether that's in the broader media scrutiny, or whether that's unfortunately now, in this case, I thought it was really surprising that I think from a broader game perspective that was used against our class night, I don't think it's helpful because what we all want, I think, is for players to give more of themselves to grow the game. And they're up for it. But when we have incidents like this, they second-guess it. And that's not good for any of us. And it's certainly not good for the AFL as well. And that's a conversation we'll definitely be having in the coming days. Yeah, so what does the competition look like, where the players lose confidence in the media

10:16and they're reporting around delicate incidents, and then lose confidence in the tribunal and MRO process? Well, it's not one that's really built for success, right? And so I think it's incumbent upon all of us to make sure that we get through those challenges. And generally, the relationship between the players and the media, the players and the game has been fantastic. We've got an issue here that we need to work through and resolve. I've got no doubt there is a solution that we can work towards, but there's got to be an appetite to do it. Do you call Andrew Gillin today and make these thoughts known to him in a more casual, maybe personable way? We talk regularly, whether that's today, I think I'm seeing him tomorrow. So yeah, but yeah, and we'll certainly have conversation about it. And I think these are not necessarily thoughts that haven't come up in our discussions previously. I think we've just seen them play out in the last 24 hours or so. You've got a legal background as your advice to Zach Butters

11:16and Port Adelaide to appeal? I'm trying desperately to continually take the legal hat off. I looked out, they'll consider it hard without having seen the reasons and our team and our legal team, I spoke to both Zach and Matthew Richardson last night, and I made it really clear that they're going to have great legal support. But if there's anything our team can do to help them, we will, and I expect our guys will have a look at their, look at the reasons today and form some thoughts and if they've got some ideas about, you know, a ways for on appeal, we'll certainly play that role. Should a tribunal member be on the tribunal call while he's driving and making a determination that has significant impact on someone's life? I think we're a really professional game and we need to make sure that every element of that reflects it. So that's a no. The last question I have on this regarding Zach Butters is are you surprised that it's taken this long to get the findings back from a tribunal? We still don't have them and it's 9, 17 am the next morning?

12:17Yeah, I think ideally we'd have the reasons pretty shortly after. I expect, I actually don't know this, but I know from my previous time at North Melbourne, quite often the AFL will be relatively flexible in the consideration of those decisions and the timelines for appeal. I'd like to think that given there's a delay on the reasons that that would play out here. Yeah, ideally we get the reasons quickly, but as long as it doesn't have a negative impact on the rights of the player, I think we can work with that. And last one on this story. So the Plays Association boss, but Rob Kerr is the Umpires Association boss. Do you speak to him about the dynamic in this situation? Yeah, I haven't as yet, but I'll certainly reach out and have a conversation. And I think it comes back to ultimately what we wanted to touch on earlier. Plays and Umpires are working together every week. And they're not always going to agree. And how do we create that environment where there's a really healthy respect? And I expect that that's largely what we've got.

13:17But we just need to make sure that we aren't taking steps or putting things in place that potentially get in the way of that. We'll be taking your calls after the news on this, on the Lance Collar situation, anything else you want to put it on the agenda this morning, please do so. 1-300-736-736 is the Hyundai Openline. Enjoy early deals at Hyundai pre-OFIs on now at participating Hyundai dealers in the 40-wings temper tax. A 0-433-9811-16. The difference is temper. You'll listen to Wightly for Australian Maid when you buy certified Australian Maid. You're backing local businesses, jobs and our economy right here. James Gallagher from the PAs in the studio. Plenty more to talk about including the Lance Collar verdict which was handed down yesterday. Want to have your say? Ring Jared on 1-300-736-736. Now, back to Wightly. Tom Morris filling in for Jared Wightly yesterday, today and tomorrow and two red hot issues in the football industry right now. The punishment's handed to Zach Butters, who's caught a $1,500 fine as Port Adelaide potentially appealed that.

14:20We'll find out maybe later this morning, certainly by this afternoon. And Lance Collar, who we knew last week that he was guilty of using a homophobic slur in a VFL match three weeks ago. And then yesterday it was confirmed that he had received a nine week suspension from playing football. Two of those weeks suspended for the 2026 and 2027 seasons, meaning that he will not miss anything more than seven weeks unless he offends again. Both players protested their innocence, and in both cases their tribunal suggested that they were guilty and then have handed down their verdicts. We're talking to AFL Players Association Boss James Gallagher, who's been very generous with his time. The Lance Collar verdict, we've separated these two, because even though they've come within an hour or two of each other, they are very different cases. How do you read what's played out with Lance Collar and St. Kilda and the Franksend dolphins? Yeah, you're right, Tom. They're very different. I think there's no doubt from our point of view, we've been really clear that the game, we need to read the Game of Homophobia.

15:21It's as simple as that. And we've made some commitments around equality, inclusion, and safety in the most recent CBA. We've really started to break through with some of that work with the AFL and establishing that committee in recent times. We're completely committed to that, and I just want that to be very clear. But what we've seen again is a process that ultimately has caused harm all over the place. I don't think we've got a process in place at the moment that's bespoke. The game in the 90s found a way to deal with racism on field between players. It established a really deeply considered consultative engaging process that made sure that those people affected. The players affected, but also more broadly, the communities that might be affected by the allocations or the language used would be heard as part of the process. And I think that's something that we're really keen to see adopted here.

16:23I think there's an opportunity for us to enhance the way we navigate these really challenging situations. Lance Clearly, he's maintained his innocence. There's obviously country evidence to that. However, it's disappointing that his perspective hasn't been adopted by the tribunal. However, it's actually more about how we're addressing holistically these challenges as opposed to just getting to the end and the disciplining in the search. There's broader issues here, but there's a couple of quick ones on Lance Collard. The tribunal spoke about his difficult upbringing, the notion of the reality of domestic violence in a home front, no male role model in his life. He's had to travel from where he grew up to play for St Kilda, who's now living with Nassau Wanganine Miller. How difficult his life has been compared to, let's say, the two VFL players that made the allegations against him. Have you spoken to Lance and how's he going?

17:24Yeah, I haven't spoken directly. I've reached out to Lance and I know the team's had some correspondence with him previously. We've been talking a lot to the club and people around him. My understanding is he's, you know, with a devastated, too strong work. He's deeply impacted obviously by this outcome. And given he's gone back to W-80s for some time with family, I haven't been able to have a chat to him yet. But yeah, so I think we've got an adversarial approach. And I think the tribunal in its decisions last night identified that when you've got two versions of events, it's not a great place to start from when dealing with really challenging issues that the game is facing, whether that be homophobia or racism or otherwise. And I think that adversarial approach hasn't served the purposes of anyone in this process.

18:24I don't think it's served the purposes of the LGBTQI plus community. I don't think it's served the purposes of Lance. And that's ultimately what we're focused on moving forward. So what is the right punishment for lack of a better term or sanction for a player found guilty of using a homophobic slur if it's not several weeks on the sideline? I don't necessarily have a strong view on what the sanction should be. I think what we've got to do is have a process that brings in the views of the communities we're talking about that are impacted and get them to have a say in how we ultimately landed an outcome. And there was some evidence given as part of Lance's hearing last week by Hayley Conway from Pride Cup. And I think it was really apt and kind of got to the heart of the issue is that sanctioning and penalty can't be the only response. It has a role to play, but at the moment it's kind of being seen as the solution

19:24and it's not. The solution has to start much earlier. That's work that we're really deeply committed to. We're looking forward to working closely with the AFL to develop that. I think what we've seen here is another unfortunate example where this won't need to be done and we need to quickly. How concerned are you that Lance Collard either won't be able to get back to his best as a football or won't be able to get back at all from this? That was mentioned in the tribunal notes that this could be career ending was the quote. If the punishment of the sanction is too long. Any significant time out of the game presents a challenge for players and we say that all the time whether that be suspension injury or otherwise. Sincure to a provided great support to Lance and I think that needs to be acknowledged. That gives me a lot of confidence that when he's ready, he'll come back to that football club. He'll have a lot of support around him and that'll give him the best chance to move through this incident out the other side and hopefully return to 40.

20:26So the AFL adopt a framework that's consistent across various off-field misdemeanors. I know you touched on it before and I know this was part of the negotiations and written and agreed to in 2023 and it hasn't come forth yet. I think we've got a bit of work to do and we've talked about a lot this morning. The listeners have heard lots about process this morning. I think we've got a lot of work to do to set up really bespoke processes that should lead us to the outcome. I think having some clarity about what those outcomes might look like is helpful for the game. I think we saw that through COVID that when there was really clear parameters around play behaviour but also the consequence of behaviour. I think that was really helpful for the game and men that we were able to get through issues and incidents quickly with clarity for everyone involved and people had signed up before the issue was upon us. I think there's a benefit to that and that's something we're committed to continuing working through with the AFL and I'd like to think we can find a way through that. But I don't think you can have necessarily something that's so prescriptive as the C equals X.

21:28But I think having an understanding of the parameters you're working in it would be really helpful for everyone. The AFL made the argument in the case against Lance Collard that because he had delivered a homophobic slur before he was more likely to have done it this time. Do you think that was a fair argument? That's a good question. I think the evidence as I understand it was very much that he'd gone through an education process. He understood the mistake of his ways. I mean, you could argue that the word has been in his vocabulary at some point in the past. He could equally argue that he, more than most, should deeply know the impact of it, given what he's gone through. So again, I said this before when we're talking about the Zack Butter's case, you are the PACO. So you are clearly, you have a lens from a player's perspective. So you would agree I think that Lance Collard needs to take ownership for his own mistakes in the past. But what's your message to the LGBTQA plus community

22:28that has also been hurt by what's happened not just here but also in the past with Collard and other players? Yeah, a community of which we've got a lot of our members are part of that community. And that's why we have such a commitment to inclusion. That's why we have such a commitment to the voices of that community being heard when these incidents arise. And we know having heard from representatives of that community that's really important. We want the game to be as inclusive and safe for everyone. Full stop. And we think at the moment we've got some work to do and we're really committed to doing that work because ultimately the game will be better off when everyone, irrespective of communities, but in particular the LGBTQA plus community feels comfortable and confident enough to come and be themselves and participate and perform and contribute to this game. And I think that's really important to us. And as I said, we've got plenty of members from that community. Like it's right at the core. And that's why these issues are so challenging

23:29to navigate. They are really tricky to work through for everyone involved. And we recognize and acknowledge that challenge. We're just saying, let's deal with it in a slightly less adversarial way and make sure we're hearing from all the right people. Last one on this, should St. Kielder appeal the Lance Collard suspension? They're considering it. And our team, again, our lawyers have been doing a bit of work in recent times. They've worked closely with St. Kielder's team in the last few weeks. And I expect that they'll all be sitting there and having a look at the reasons today. And they'll consider their options in that regard. And our team will play a role in helping identify any possible options they may have. James, if you can stick around for a couple more minutes, we've got some lighter topics to talk to you about. Salary caps and gather around mid-season trade period. And a couple more things as well. If you want to be part of the conversation, we're going to take your calls after that. On 13736, 736. That's the Hyundai Open Line. The new McAfA drinks range. Time now for the latest news headlines with Nathan Gardner.

24:29Thank you, Nathan. Tom Morris here for Jared Waitley yesterday. Today and tomorrow. We're here for Australian made. When you buy certified Australian made. You're backing local businesses, jobs and our economy right here. Just a couple more minutes with James Gallagher, the AFL Players Association CEO. What is your perspective on gather around? And the future of what it's... And the future of it and what it's become. It's been a fantastic initiative. There's no doubt about that. The players really enjoy it. I was lucky enough that I spent all of last week over there. I went to a bit of footy, spoke to a lot of players. Really positively received, I think. South Australia's done a wonderful job. Under the CBA, there's any extension. We need to be comfortable with and agree with. And Andrew Dillon and I met last week. I think we got to a point where there was a broad understanding of what that would look like. There's probably still some details to work through as they work through with the government. But we're certainly supportive of it. I don't see us being anything other than helping bring it to life into the future years.

25:34And I'd probably expect that that becomes South Australia into the future. But we'll work with the AFL. That's ultimately cool. The mid season trade period has been on the cards for many years. Probably four or five years now. And it's been written in that you've been open to negotiating it and seeing if it can work. But it still is not a thing, despite support from some clubs. Why is that? It's a good question. It hasn't actually come up for me since I've started. I know we've opened the door to it in the last CBA. That was a fair while ago now. I think broadly, more player movements are good thing for the game. So we're certainly open to that conversation. Some clubs have some concerns about whether it would equally apply for all late-ten clubs. I think there's ways to navigate those concerns. But the balls in the AFL's court. And if they want to be sure, we're certainly up for working through the detail of that with them. A question on the salary cap. Do you think the best players in footy are being paid enough for another top end, the superstars? Yeah. Our job is to negotiate the cap and the minimum salary. And then it's over the clubs to work their way through that in between.

26:36I think what we've seen is some significant increases in payments in recent times because the cap's gone up. I probably want to see that continue to go forward. The other thing at the moment, I think we're saying, is I think more movement ultimately probably leads to a good balance in where the money's being spent. And so I think there's an opportunity, maybe, to have a bit more flexibility and freedom of movement. And that will necessarily balance out when the money's spent. Is there a world where player contracts are capped at a certain number of years? Don't think so, Tom. Ever? I just can't. Players are really restricted. And I hear some concerns. I don't see it as a problem. I know, again, I'll go back to my time at North Melbourne. And I'm probably giving away too much of their stuff. But like they've got, Luke Davies, Uniaq, Nicklark, Harry Sheeze, all locked in long term. There's no problem with those long term contracts. More often than not. They're a real positive for both player and club.

27:36There's the occasionally outlier where they don't quite work. Like we shouldn't be making changes to the rules just because of a couple of outlier situations that don't work overly well. And the other thing that the longer contracts do is they provide a really important safety net for players that are putting themselves at physical risk every week. And it's actually the best. And I know there's been a lot of conversation recent times about insurance and support in the light. The best support players have is that certain due of contract. The upcoming collective bargaining agreement is going to be fascinating. What's your number one point on your wish list? What would you like the AFL to listen to your most on when it comes to the upcoming CBA? We haven't worked through our priorities yet. I've just got around to all the AFL clubs and I'll do the same with the AFL W clubs shortly. Having caught up with them just after I started. But we'll go again in the next six weeks. And I think by late this year, we want to be in a position where we're really clear on our priorities. But overarchingly, the players are partners in the game. They're invested in the growth of the game. And I think making sure that we're continually having a seed at that table

28:36because we come armed with really clear views about how we can keep helping to grow the game. And I think that's the most important thing. And that should be the philosophy that overarching this next agreement and hopefully the dynamic between us and the AFL ongoing in the clubs. Are you a fan of the double headers across AFL W and AFL that are coming in August? We've been pushing for it really strongly for some time. That predates me. I certainly was pushing for him when I was at North Melbourne as well. I think it's a fantastic opportunity to explore how this can help the growth of the game broadly. And introduce a football audience to send fantastic AFL W-Footy. And at the moment, that's one of the bridges we've got to get across. So through the AFLs, heard the players wishes on that. Looking forward to the four of those that we'll see this season. And potentially hoping they're really successful and we can look to expand that further. James, really appreciate you coming in some heavy topics. But you've been terrific throughout and we'll speak to you again soon. Thanks, Tom. Cheers.

29:36James Gallagher, the AFL Players Association. CEO, have you all say? Give us a buzz. One, three hundred, seven, three, six. Seven, three, six. Enjoy early deals at Hyundai preo fees on now, participating Hyundai dealers.