A Contract to Kill Is No Contract at All!

Welcome to the Carey Abbott Show, your place for news, views and values you can trust,

and relationship insights you need.

Now here's Carey Abbott.

So good to be with you friends.

Welcome to the Carey Abbott Show.

We're honored to have you all over the nation and in many other nations around the world.

We were tuning in to hear truth delivered with grace.

I know you are.

Many of you are helping us do that.

Thank you for reaching out, sending us information.

Thank you for your support.

We are honored to have you as part of this listening community because we are all recognizing

something I think that is glaring and that is you can't trust everything you read and

you can't trust every outlet and you definitely cannot trust some of the mainstream media.

And I know there's good people involved in all those things, but it has become very clear.

We need to lean into those people that understand the truth from a biblical perspective.

And this is one of the reasons my guest who's joining me today is with us.

I was reading an op-ed that she wrote.

Many of you are familiar with the McKenna West story, the surrogate mother who refused

to abort her baby diagnosed at 20 weeks with a serious congenital heart condition.

We talked about that last week.

And of course, she carried a baby whose biological parents are California couple, Nushin

Gilkar and Omar Ahmed after the diagnosis, a dispute arose over terminating the pregnancy,

ultimately, McKenna refused.

She fled to Texas for legal protections and carried baby Gabriel to term, giving birth

in August.

We talked about all of that.

One of the things I did not address and I'm so grateful my guest did was the intended

parents of alleged numerous breaches of the surrogacy agreement.

We're not even talking about how dangerous surrogacy is in this conversation because

I've covered that on the show many times, but they're seeking more than $100,000 in damages.

So in a recent op-ed published in the Christian post, AFA actions, Jenna Ellis, she is a senior

policy advisor for AFA action.

She wrote that no woman should face breach of contract liability because she refuses to

abort a child.

She has much more to say about that.

She's actually with us right now.

She's also the host of her own morning show.

I don't want to welcome Jenna Ellis to the show.

It's so fun to have you back and it has been years since we had you on the first time.

Yeah.

Thanks so much, Carrie.

Right before the broadcast, we were talking about that.

What a journey and spend and I'm grateful to be back with you, especially talking about

these issues that are so important because Christians have to understand why we participate

in civil society, not just our church and family governments, but also the civil government.

So I'm really grateful that you're addressing this and from a biblical worldview perspective.

So well said, it's true.

The Lord wants us engaged in every part of society so we can be a blessing and bring that

biblical worldview, which I know is near and dear to your heart.

You going way back, you studied the Constitutional law, right?

Yes.

Yeah.

And I thought my calling was to be a career prosecutor and there's a lot of ministry elements

involved in that.

But then ultimately my calling was to study the Constitution more.

I substantively practiced in that area and really just my heart says I was to teach in that

area and that's exactly what I get to do now.

That's so good.

And of course, you helped the president at one point as well and you were in the public

eye for some time during a lot of different interventions that were taking place.

That's not the point of this conversation, but I can say this on behalf of our listening

community.

Thank you for all that you've done for our nation, for our president.

And it was costly at times.

Yeah, absolutely.

And most things that are worth doing are costly in ways that we wouldn't know and maybe

wouldn't have signed up for when we're first asked to serve.

But I started serving president Trump directly as one of his lawyers for actually right prior

to the first impeachment and was on the legal team for that.

And that was coming off of the heels of all the russia gate stuff.

So went all the way through until he left office and what an amazing opportunity that was.

But also, yeah, I mean, it comes at cost and it still is costly when people don't really

want to know the truth.

They just want to hear what maybe the mainstream media, the prevailing clickbait narrative is.

But one of the things that I've recognized through this and that has made my faith stronger

is that it really doesn't matter what the world thinks of you.

It only matters what God thinks and what the truth is.

And you know, character is really who you are and reputation is just what people think

of you.

I'm very grateful, though, to all of the Christians around the country who still continue to pray

for me, reach out and through all of that time, the good, the bad and the ugly have really

supported me.

And that's what the family of the Lord and our greater Christian body does.

And I'm so grateful for that.

I'm glad that you landed too with American Family Association.

And that's a safe place to be.

But also a great landing pad for someone with your credentials and someone with your understanding.

I can assure you people leaning in right now are going to continue to pray for you because

many have wondered how you have been doing.

And as I said, we're grateful.

And you know, the truth will come out and it will and it already is coming out in many

ways.

And so I'm sure that you are grateful for that too.

Thank you for taking that little bunny trail with me.

I think you are one of those people that people care about.

And thank you.

And you know, it really matters as well because the truth did come out and just this past

May, the court in Georgia completely dismissed the case.

There was never any conviction for me.

So no record there, but the court entered a finding of total exoneration, which was an

answer to prayer.

And so that finally years down, the road has gotten clarified.

And that's, I'm so grateful for that.

But being at the American Family Association really has been, you know, you and I were talking

about 10 years ago, if you had asked me what would have been, you know, my dream and

what I was praying for the Lord to provide was a pathway to talk about constitutional issues,

civil issues from a biblical world view perspective and to have a platform to do that to engage

Christians around the country.

Even though there were a lot of bunny trails for sure and a lot of other work that the

Lord had for me, I really felt like coming to AFA was coming home and was an answer to

that prayer years ago.

God took me to places I never even considered, but ultimately provided an answer to that.

So I've been there for four years doing my show.

And so for people who are wondering, I'm doing great.

And the Lord has truly blessed me with this opportunity for ministry that I just absolutely

love.

He's so good.

What a great testimony.

And what time is your show?

I know we're in different parts of the nation here, but what time is your show in the

morning?

Yes.

So we're alive Monday through Friday from eight to nine Eastern, but for those on the

West Coast, that's a little early for a lot of you.

And so you can also listen to the rebroadcast anytime after the live show at AFR.net and

my show is called Jenna Ellis in the morning.

And then we also do a once a week podcast called on demand that drops every Friday.

So you can listen on the free app.

And even if you don't listen live, you can hear all of the past shows as well.

That's excellent.

I know they will.

And of course, I'm reaching out to you listening community and want to engage those of you

who've been praying for so many things.

Please add Jenna to the list there because God is using her as a mouthpiece that you can

trust.

And that's one of the reasons I was thrilled to have her back on the show.

Well, let's jump back into your op ed that you published and that I saw on the Christian

the post talking about McKenna West, the surrogate mother, who is now, you know, the couple

is seeking damages.

And you have a lot of thoughts about this.

Let's just go back to you and you go ahead and explain to us why she does.

She doesn't have to be liable because she refuses to kill somebody.

Yeah.

And that's what is really an important part of this story, not just her actions, which

of course were life saving by refusing to abort the surrogate child.

She entered obviously into that contract with the biological parents and then at 20 weeks

when she was told to have an abortion because of that that congenital heart defect she refused.

And so when she went to Texas, thankfully, there are still states in America that protect

the right to life.

But now she's facing over $100,000 breach of contract potential civil liability.

And so, you know, when we think about contracts in general, obviously the right and the freedom

to contract to engage in services, promises, payments, those sort of things, our law typically

and should respect that kind of freedom of a bargain for exchange.

But when you're talking about bargaining with a third party's life, that's what we're

talking about here.

Baby Gabriel had no consent to the agreement, had no participation.

It was just the biological parents and the surrogate mother that entered into this contract.

How could a state legally or morally say yes, it is a violation and a breach of contract

that is enforceable, enforceable with civil penalties that you didn't murder a third person.

And if we think about that in any other context, I mean, if you and I had a contract where,

you know, I'm paying you to go out and murder someone, a court obviously would say that's

unconscionable, that's unenforceable.

Our law does not recognize the validity of that.

And if you decide, if you enter into that agreement and then you decide, you know what,

maybe I shouldn't do that.

I can't hold you into court and say, well, you know, the contract is what matters, not

the morality of what we're talking about.

So there are so many not only contract law principles, but bigger issues that our society

morally needs to grapple with.

Mary, and you read in the op-ed, a contract is not a license and maybe people misunderstand

that.

Yeah.

Well, you know, when you think about the license that the government provides in certain

situations and obviously there are some disputes around that as well.

But when you think of, you know, even my profession, like lawyers, you know, we get licenses

to practice law, medical licenses to practice, counselor's therapist, you have to be licensed

essentially saying, you know, this is something that the state authorizes.

We even get driver's licenses, right?

And so that kind of that term licensing basically carries with it a, an authorization from

the government that this activity is permissible.

And so when two people enter in into a civil contract, it doesn't automatically mean that

the state is condoning the substance of that contract.

The state can still step in and say, no, absolutely not.

Even though there's an agreement between the parties, the state is not going to enforce

that because it's immoral, it's illegal, it's unconscionable, all a variety of issues.

And so this is where conservatives, and this is really important.

This is where conservatives differ from most, not all, but most libertarians because we

would say from a biblical worldview, the state should step in where the libertarian overarching

position is to say, well, the government is just there to moderate and adjudicate contracts,

but the freedom of contract belongs entirely with the people.

Well, no conservatives would say that in a moral and upright society, if we are doing

justice, the government's legitimate authority is to promote good and restrain evil to do justice.

Right.

And two people who are entering into an immoral or illegal arrangement, the state absolutely

should step in and not honor that agreement.

So good.

So the underlying principle that you talk about in your op-ed is the freedom of contract

stops where sufficiently strong moral law and public policy begin.

That's interesting that you compared libertarians in this case because the whole idea that

we're talking about here is a little baby, right?

I mean, so the contract doesn't even make sense at the point of which somebody said,

now, terminate that life, and which is one of the major things that you point out.

It's complicated because there's a contract and there were deliverables.

The deliverable was the baby.

So how is she not following the contract when she refuses to kill the baby when delivering

the baby was the contract?

Yeah.

And absolutely, to be clear, I don't think that any Christian libertarian would agree

that this is moral or that this is okay, which is why we need to ensure that we are Christians

first and our public policy and our view of government is built up from there.

And so when we're contemplating, what is the deliverable under a contract?

Well, that can be a promise for performance.

It's an exchange of something of value, right?

And here when we're talking about surrogacy, what we're talking about is the exchange of

money for a woman's womb.

I mean, right there, you get into a lot of moral issues.

Should a woman actually rent out her womb?

Do we, are there ethical moral principles?

Absolutely.

But when we're talking about deliverables and in the whole realm of product, liability

and products and contracts, we're talking about commoditizing children.

And here, what the biological parents are actually asserting is very similar to basically

defects in a product that if you go out and you purchase something or you engage someone

to create a product for you and they deliver it and it doesn't work or there's a defect

that's considerable, then you would return that and you'd say, no, this isn't acceptable

under our contract.

That's essentially what they're doing to a human life.

They're saying we want you to destroy this and this is unacceptable because there's a material

defect, this congenital heart defect that makes this product of this child that we purchased,

not acceptable under our terms.

And how callous and crude and vial and frankly evil is that whole contemplation where the

parents are essentially reducing a human life to a product.

Which is why serigacy is so problematic.

And because there is a contract involved and the parents actually had this view, they

wanted that child killed because he wasn't perfect.

And you talk about this and I know that you believe this is maybe submitting leaning

in to our conversation today, doesn't have a complete biblical worldview.

But you are clear that our dignity as a human doesn't come from a contract.

It comes from our creator and Genesis tell us all about that.

You can go to Psalm 139 where there's a description of God intimately forming human life in the

womb.

But this is why this story is so important because a lot of people like, well, I guess

serigacy goes on.

Maybe somebody has trouble carrying a baby and that's nice of a sister to do that poor sister.

And they have this very, very, I don't know what the word is.

This very quaint, innocent view of serigacy.

They don't realize that babies are being bought and sold every single day all around the

world.

But in our country, it's not illegal.

Isn't that incredibly problematic?

Absolutely.

And this is where the law needs to change.

And interestingly, when we talk about even property law and this is where all of these advocates

for serigacy and suggesting that we can commoditize children, which is the end result.

I mean, yes, a lot of people have a very rosy view of when everything works out great and

isn't serigacy wonderful for people who can't have kids.

But they're not considering the birth of a child.

And I think that's the reason why we're talking about serigacy.

It works out great and isn't serigacy wonderful for people who can't have kids.

But they're not considering the problematic cases, the logical implications of what legalizing

this can lead to.

And interestingly, even within the property law realm, we recognize under our constitution

and our law that that life is valuable.

It is sacred.

Our founders recognized that the right to life is paramount and that it is sacred.

Even our property law recognizes that not even yet conceived children that could be born later of a union of a marriage

Has have vested property rights to a state even when they're not yet conceived. So for example

I'm one of three children of my parents marriage and they're still living and in their will the law just terms me as an heir apparent along with my two brothers

They contemplate that my parents could adopt or you know have have another child or um and and they

That child would be just as valuable in the eyes of the law in terms of their right to property

under a will and last testament and so if we are granting and contemplating the future

Even potential property rights of not even yet conceived human beings

How much more sacred is their right to life and that our property law needs to protect that so good

So good so wonderful to hear these insights from Jenna Ellis. She's a senior advisor public policy for American Family Association

National Radio host of Jenna Ellis in the morning

Happens to live in Florida at least according to your bio

Is a wonderful place was just there recently seen some family. Hey, we need to take a quick break

We will come back to this story and it'll just be a moment friend so hang in there. We'll be right back

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And now back to the carry Abbott show

So we are so honored today to have Jenna Ellis with us and she is a senior policy advisor for a FAA action

By the way, you can go to afaaction.net

That's the government affairs affiliate of American Family Association. She also hosts her own show

Jenna Ellis in the morning and you're gonna want to listen to that as well

She's one of those trusted people that you can count on she will find the truth and if she doesn't have the answer

She will go digging for it which is one one of the reasons I've really appreciated all of her work over the last many years

She has a recent op-ed published in the Christian post and no woman should ever face breach of contract liability

She says because she refused to abort a child and of course that's talking about McKenna West the surrogate mother who refused to abort a baby

Diagnosed at 20 weeks with a serious congenital heart condition

We're talking about the contractual part of that because the parents the only they are alleged

To be looking for numerous breaches of the surrogacy agreement and they're seeking more than a hundred thousand dollars in damages

You know Jenna that doesn't sit well with me because he's the same people who said yeah

Go ahead and kill that baby and now they want to make money from this woman who who fled

To another state Texas so she could protect this baby and they want to sue her doesn't that seem

Calis cold and a little odd

Yeah, I mean it absolutely commoditizes and reduces the

wonderful gift that is life down to

An agreement for a purchase and even worse than that

These biological parents are now seeking custody from the surrogate mother

And they're actually asking a court to give them the very baby that they sought to kill and

And that to me is is so completely opposite from what a legitimate government

Is obligated to do to protect the welfare of a child against abuse

I mean obviously I'm very much in favor of parental rights. It's a fundamental right

That is given by God, but there are

It's situations that parents can be unfortunately abusive there can be other

Various reasons why they're incapable of taking care of their children and here

It's so clear cut these biological parents do not

Have any desire to have to raise the child

Well, I mean they may be more attached now. I mean they may say and claim that you know their emotions have changed

But the reality is they sought to enforce a provision in their contract

That required the death of their baby just because of a physical defect

That you know he's already had at least according to reports multiple surgeries and is doing well

And so what kind of court would not only enforce that provision of the agreement

And say yes, there's a breach for damages, but also return this child to parents that you know later when he grows up

He's gonna know he's gonna know that these are the variants

Yeah, 100% everywhere. Let me ask you a question about the contract

So they say there was a breach because in the contract did it say so if this child isn't perfect

We want you to kill the child before his due date

So according to the reports that I've read and I haven't read the actual contract

I'm not sure that that has been published

Yet, I mean if it ends up going to hearing we may see more of that but according to the report there was

A provision in the contract that called for

Termination of the pregnancy, which is again a kind of rosy

Sort of way of saying you are obligated to kill the child if it doesn't meet our delivery standards

That's how callous it is and there are a lot of surrogacy agreements

That actually have these provisions in them and so because

That termination provision was invoked by the biological parents and was not followed by the surrogate mother

Then that's where they are alleging there is a breach and in any

Contract scenario where a a breach is enforceable that contract term is enforceable

Then you get damages you get monetary penalties from the person and the party to the contract that

breached the contract and so this is where

if the law says

That this provision was enforceable and that McKenna West the surrogate mother didn't follow it

Then then she could be liable for damages and this is where the state needs to step in and say no the provision itself is

Uninforcible because it is immoral and it is unconscionable

Okay, and that is really the the main point of our discussion is what you just said right

Absolutely, and that's where you know people need to understand that even if two people very willingly knowingly

They they understand that what they're getting into not all contracts are

Have their provisions enforceable and so when you have and the law contract law has what is called

A principle of unconscionability or meaning that that the provision itself is so morally repugnant is so against

Law and public policy that courts render that provision entirely unenforceable even if the rest of the contract

Can still survive?

And that's what you're encouraging them to do and that how long I know we have just about a minute and a half left here

How long till this actually goes to court if it does?

I'm not sure of that. I you know depends on a lot of the negotiation civil process can take a lot longer

Thankfully, we're no longer contemplating whether this child will be aborted. I mean he is born

And so this is just a matter of after the fact

So this could take you know months even years until we get a resolution and right now he's awarded the state correct

That's my understanding and unfortunately the surrogate mother has had all

Contact removed and I think that is so sad for the baby because she's

Exactly and this again is why I'm not a fan of surrogacy

I'll say that again to the book in this listen

You know Jenna Ellis what a joy to have you with us. We are grateful to have you as sister in the body of Christ

But also as a leader in this field someone who understands the law and can speak to it from a biblical worldview

Thank you so much for joining me today

Really has been an honor and and really fun to have you back on the show

Thank you so much, Kieran. Thank you for your encouragement and your parents support that means so much to me

I really truly appreciate it. Oh you are so welcome

It won't be the last time we talk to you sometime very soon and everybody else be praying about this case and we'll see you next time

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