#72 - Emerson Eggerichs

Hey there, folks. Welcome today, right now. In fact, now I am going to interview Dr. Emerson

Egorit.

That is how you pronounce his name. Dr. Emerson Egorit. My producer said, what about this guy?

He's got a book on marriage. And I said, what about this guy? This guy. I have known this

guy for 27 years. And I was with him on the morning of 9-11. We had just had breakfast.

And not only that, and we will never admit this publicly, but I helped him write his first

book before he got too famous, you know, and wouldn't talk to me for 20 years, probably 20 years.

Dr. Emerson Egorit, my friend Emerson, always a joy and fun to have you. Thanks for coming on.

Well, I brag about the fact that you edited motivating your man God's way. I had Eric

Metaxas edit my book. And so those are my bragging rights. It's like, it's like I was the busboy.

It's like I remember Eric was a, but now he's some big chef there. I remember when he was cleaning

up my coffee spill. Let me tell you, all right. He was nothing big back then, right?

It's so good to see you. And I, I'm assuming, you know, I always assume if you're coming on

here, you're coming on here to talk about marriage because folks who don't know you, I should have

said, your big mega seller is love and respect. You came up with, I mean, I always, I've been mocking

this for like 25 years, mocking it in jealousy that you came up with a, with, with an insight

into scripture that is so amazing. And I, you really can't overstate it, Emerson.

What you saw, talk a little bit about, I don't know, what is it? Is it a hermeneutic?

We'll talk about what you saw in the scripture briefly for folks that aren't familiar because

this is genuinely folks, one of the most extraordinary things I've ever seen. So here we go.

Well, no, that's very kind. And I remember you saying, this is the cure for the common cold,

and that blew me away. But it's, I pastored for many years and I saw something in the Bible,

Ephesians 533, which is the summary statement to what most would consider the greatest treatise

in the New Testament on marriage, where it commands a husband to love and no one to base that.

But then I saw the second part where Paul says, for a wife to respect her husband.

And then I also saw Peter said, you can win a disobedient husband through respectful behavior.

Now this would have been in the late 90s and so I knew having my PhD from Michigan State University

and family studies that this wasn't going to sell, you know, respecting a man. But you and I

are motivated to serve and die for honor. But as I meditated on that, I called Sarah in and I said,

you know, when I feel disrespected, I think I react to you in ways that feel unloving to you.

I'm not trying to be, I would, I would die for you if you don't kill me first, right? And then

when you feel unloved, you end up reacting in ways that feel disrespectful to me. And though we both

needed love and respect equally, the felt need tended to play that self out in that regard.

And I created what I call the crazy cycle without love. She reacts without respect, without respect.

He reacts without love. And this baby spins and two good willed people who aren't intending to be

unloving or disrespectful sound and appear that way. And people stay on that crazy cycle for 30 years.

And that was the essence of the message. And Sarah and I have been communicating that message to

couples across the country and around the world as best we can for the last, you know, 25 years.

Well, it's an astonishing insight and you kind of rattle it off because you've said it thousands

of times. Right. Just in case anybody missed it, folks, this is a big deal that in the scripture,

it says, men are too love their wives. Wives are too respect. In other words,

according to the scripture, yeah, what do they know? According to the scripture, men and women are

different. Men somehow react to respect and react to being disrespected. Women somehow

particularly react to being loved or feeling not loved. And it's an amazing insight. It's there

in the scripture for 2000 years. You pull it out in a unique way and you may, I mean, honestly,

it's why your boy, why your books have sold so extremely well because, you know,

a lot of married people in the world and they kind of want to know how can I, how can I stop

from whatever that, you know, these terrible cycles and then you'd call the crazy cycle. So I,

I just want to kind of frame that Emerson because that's an extraordinary insight and you've

been speaking about this you and your beautiful wife, Sarah, for so long. It's amazing to me. But you

today, the reason I have you on today's because you have a brand new book. It's just come out called

Lightbulb Moments in Marriage. That's how that's there's something potentially comedic there,

of course. Lightbulb like duh. But what is it? What are you doing? Yeah. Yeah. No. Well, people

wrote me, Eric. I mean, this is based on the love and respect message that that we've written

the conferences that Sarah and I did and we'd have the book signing line afterwards. We have a

two-day event Friday night, all day Saturday. Pretty much and people would come through the book

signing line saying we had a lightbulb moment. We had a year-week moment. We had a aha moment.

And through the years, people have emailed me. I have, you know, hundreds of thousands of emails.

People have emailed me and said we had a pivoting moment. It was like we were miles apart only to

realize we were inches because we had an honest misunderstanding. And once we saw that, I mean,

just like I said, he's not trying to be unloving because he would literally die for you. But he

comes across that way. If you have said or done something earlier that felt disrespectful to him,

we can argue all day long. He ought not to feel disrespected. But he's going to defensively react.

But it's going to offend you. And that's one of the principles that I unfold that our defensive

reactions appear offensive. And once couples realize that they can decode and they can minimize

spending on that crazy cycle. But if I don't see my negative reaction, which I think is actually

honorable, I'm going quiet towards Sarah because I'm trying to calm down. To me, that's respectful

on the heels of what I felt was disrespect only to be labeled as the most unloving human being on

the planet. And so Sarah and I were totally confused, what's going on here? Am I really trying to be

unloving or am I defensively reacting in a way that ends up hurting her and we just keep spinning?

And the same thing with her, she doesn't get up in the morning to storyboard ways to show me disrespect.

And yet when she negatively reacts to me, no one talks to me this way. So I naturally feel that

she's sending me a message that she finds me unacceptable. I can never be good enough.

Now, according to the Quran, just because we want to be real clear here, what we're talking about

the Bible says, according to the Quran, that's when you beat your wife. And they have very careful

ways. So you do it exactly the way Muhammad would have beat one of his 4,000 underaged wives.

Now I don't want to bring up anything controversial. And yet I have failed again.

I don't like alarmism. I don't like fear mongering. I especially don't like people who profit from

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to be informed in times like these. Wisdom matters more than optimism. So Emerson, please continue.

Well, I mean to that point, the Christ follower is to do it differently, and we are to love, and we

are to circle, but we're to give. But that doesn't mean we're not going to have honest misunderstandings

between two people of basic goodwill. And there are people who are in this dark room and they

don't know their inches apart. They feel like they're miles apart. They want to call it quip.

But what we help couples do is to code what's really going on, and we come to a point where one

of the questions we ask is, does your spouse have basic goodwill? And I have been amazed, Eric,

how many people have said, yes, they do have basic goodwill, even though we don't like each other

right now. And so the challenge for us is, how do we get to this point in a relationship where we

don't like each other? We're not dealing with each other like we did during courtship. We're kind

of roommates. We both love the Lord, but we aren't really praying together anymore. We since

that he called us to something far greater than our marriage that he joined us together for a

larger purpose. We had a sense of destiny. We felt called, but now we're looking at the river

mirror of that. And that just feels like that's way in the past. Though individually, we still are

trying to serve the Lord, but we're not doing it together. And one of my campaigns is to help couples

realize, you're not miles apart here. And these light bulb moments, there are hundreds and hundreds

of testimonies in this book about people who pivoted just that quickly. And it sounds like pixie

dust. And it really is not. It doesn't mean that there aren't commitments afterwards. Sarah and I

have great insight now, but we still have to apply it. One time she chased me around the house with

my love and respect book saying, what would you say to a husband treating his wife the way you're

treating me right now? So that doesn't mean that you always apply. And you read that as the ultimate

in disrepair. Disrepair. And you double down. That's right. That's it. I got sorry, Cass. I don't do

this. I just read about it. I can tell my earnings. I've seen the police reports. What happened

that night? We will never talk about that on the air, but wow, to use your own book against you.

That is disrespectful. Sarah, you didn't need, you didn't need to go there, Sarah. No,

this is kind of funny because you know, and I know, I say this all the time, good marriages

are tough sometimes. Like that's normal because we are human, we're human beings. And we should

be honest about that and stop pretending that, you know, even Emerson and Sarah don't ever go through

this. That's the normal thing. And so, and it's funny, Emerson, because I was thinking about this

just theologically, right? This is all because of the fall, ladies and gentlemen. It's the fall.

We're broken. And you know, in the kingdom, it won't be like this. But while we're here,

we have to look to God to help us figure out how to deal with what whatever it is. And God

does have a plan. And it's all over scripture. But you, the way you've summed it up really,

it's such an extraordinary insight, Emerson, that I cannot, I can't say it enough. The other thing

you just mentioned, which I have thought about a number of times, even in my own marriage,

this idea of goodwill to just step back and say, you know, is this a good woman? Does this woman

have goodwill? Like you're in a moment. And you realize, well, of course, of course. And that's,

that's important. The same thing for, for, for the wife. And, but that to me is also a key

insight to recognize that in the midst of conflict. Well, and Paul in 1 Corinthians 7, which is

about marriage. 1 Corinthians 13, the love chapter is about spiritual gifts in the church. It's

not about marriage. He talked about marriage in 1 Corinthians 7. And he says two things on this

point of goodwill. 1 Corinthians 7 33 and 34. The husband is concerned about how to please his wife.

And the wife is concerned about how to please her husband. Paul knew we were fallen in

need of a savior, but he saw the image of God still there. That residual effect is there. And he

didn't say the reason you have problems is you're both sinful and selfish and just get over it.

No, he said, look, you better interpret this correctly. Your wife is concerned about how to please

you. And your husband is concerned about how to please you. Now, we don't do that to the extent

that the other is hoping that we will, but that doesn't mean that their heart is not in the right

place. And then secondly, to your larger point about the fallen world, Paul in verse 28 and said,

if you marry, you've not sinned, but you will have trouble. And he's talking, they're not about

sinful trouble, but about the natural problems that arise in all marriages, not the least of which is

we both have equal authority in the bedroom. 1 Corinthians 7 4. So the question is who decides on

Tuesday night, whether we're going to be sexually intimate or not? And the answer to that is yes.

And so the Lord has designed healthy, special challenges that create this tension, these challenges

and troubles even. How do we navigate that? And many people conclude we must have a bad marriage

because if we really love each other, this shouldn't be that hard. No, there are going to be

challenging moments just as you point out. I mean, I wrote the book Love and Respect and Sarah and

I still get on a crazy cycle. We still have honest misunderstandings. We still have moments where

we annoy each other, but we don't panic. We know how to rebound and repair more quickly.

And that's what this light bulb moments book also includes, which gives hope to a whole lot of

people. So then what is in the light bulb moments in marriage book? The title is light bulb moments

in marriage 12 biblical perspectives on what? Well, I tab three major categories. I talk about our

faith in God that ultimately we come to a point where my value, for instance, has to be God given

not spouse driven. And I Sarah refines me, but she doesn't define me. And I unpack how do we

have that right self image in Christ, even though our spouse negatively affects us. But some of us

become very insecure. We really go into depression on the heels of these moral problems. And I

address this and talk relentlessly about how many couples turn the corner on that. It doesn't mean

that we become robotic or unaffected. But there is a way to move forward with that without your

self image hanging on their view of you. If their mood determines your self worth, you've got a

real challenge before you. But I talk about seeing Christ beyond the shoulder of my spouse.

Years ago when I was in New York, one of our friends said, wow, this isn't about my wife and me.

This is about Christ and me. And that was a very exciting moment for him to realize Christ is

present in this relationship. And I didn't know how that would play among the church that if

believers would really take hold of this and say, ultimately, I love my wife because I'm loving Christ.

Eric, that took hold and stuck. I have been so blessed by how the Christian community really has

seen that some people were in hopeless marriages. But they said, this is brought a whole new meaning

to my relationship. Even my wife doesn't respond. I can please Christ. I can touch Christ. So there are

chapters there about the upward. Then I deal with the outward dealing with our spouse. How do we

experience clarity and communication? How do we come to a point of harmony, for instance,

when we both differ with each other on an issue? And how do we deal with those 80-20 moments where

that 20% is just bugging us and that tension is very real? How do we acknowledge the fact that

that neither one of us is wrong, they're just different shades of right in the gray areas of life?

That was a huge one. Different shades of right coming back to this idea of not judging our spouse

as wrong. So those give you a little taste of what the book is about. It's light bulb moments

in marriage. And it's so funny, Emerson, to know somebody as long as we've known each other. I

mean, you know, I had been married just a handful of years when we met. And when you think how

different life is 25 years down the line, she's in and I are looking at 30 years this year. And

that's consecutively. I want people to understand one year after you. I don't know how we did it.

One year after you like consecutively. And but it is interesting to me how different we are,

how different marriage is. And because I've heard people say this, but now I get to see it,

how beautiful marriage is. It changes in a beautiful way if you let it, if you don't bail,

if you don't pull the parachute and get out of there, which God hates, God wants us to stick it out

because He wants to bless us. But He can bless us if we don't hang on and trust Him and walk with

Him in the midst of the difficulties and so on and so forth. But so 30 years in, it's really amazing

to me. I've heard people say, well, I love my wife more than I've got. There's no doubt about that.

There's no doubt about that. And it's also interesting too because the biblical view of marriage,

love is not gushy. I've, oh, I'm, no, it's something way deeper, way more beautiful. And I just,

I'm just fascinated with that dynamic, you know, because I've never been here before. Most people,

you know, as we age or as we go through life, this is your first time that you've ever been there.

You get to see things you could not see before. Now you and Sarah, even though you're young,

you were married, you were like kids, you've been, you've been, you've been here even long. 1973,

so yeah, we're in early 50s over 50 years, exactly 1973. That is not possible. For her,

for her, yeah, we talk about assigned and arranged marriage and she was three. But the, the,

the point also though, there are those listening who feel hopeless. They think,

Eric and Emerson, I've been nice. I've tried everything I know to try. It's just not working for us.

And I'm tempted to strain my, trade my spouse in for a new model. And that's a real sentiment because

they believe they've done everything they know how to do. And, and maybe they have, maybe they have.

I don't know that situation, but you need to read the testimonies and light bulb moments and give

yourself at least a moment of pause, particularly if you have children, your children say,

did you do everything you could to save your marriage, save the relationship with mom,

to save the relationship with that? I've had many people say to me, that was a turning moment when

we said, you know what, we're going to run at this again for the sake of the children, not because

I believe it's necessarily going to work. And as they reopen their heart and let go of a little

bit of that resentment and bitterness that they, they now have and just trust here that maybe the

Lord himself, not your spouse, the Lord himself has a gift that he wants to give to you. And I want

you to listen to these testimonies of people who really did give up. They really were at a point

where they came to our conferences. They were setting miles apart. They hated each other. They'd

even filed for divorce. We did research on couples who had either filed for divorce or who were

divorced and came to the conference. Why that happened? I don't know, but 60% of them either

called off the divorce or remarried because they came to a point where they realized we had an

honest misunderstanding, particularly of both of them meet each other halfway where she says,

I wasn't trying to be disrespectful. You're an honorable man. And I realized how I'd come across

June away that dishonored you, but that was never my heart. Well, I get it. When I default and go

quiet and just go quiet for days, that's unloving to you, but I'm just trying to stay calm because

I don't want this thing to escalate, but I get it now. That conversation itself can heal two people.

I tell you, you know, whenever I'm talking about marriage with anybody, I immediately think about,

and this just greaves me. I have to say how people in the church, people who claim to be Christians

and who yap about their faith and yap about church or whatever got this idea. And this is in our

lifetime, Emerson, that, you know, if things grow cold, I can just get out. And I just want to say,

I want to be on the record, not if you love Jesus, folks, okay, biblical grounds for marriage,

biblical grounds for marriage. If you want God to be okay with your divorce, we're talking about

adultery, we're talking about physical abuse, but just to say like we've grown apart,

you should be ashamed of yourself, I would say, if that's your excuse for leaving someone

who you vowed to be with for the rest of your life in front of God and a roomful of people,

but I've seen this Emerson in the church. I just recently, some folks that I know,

they were together, I don't know, 25, 30 years, and then, you know, she just left. And I talk,

wait a minute, you're talking about the woman that had all these women's Bible studies,

and it's like inviting women to any of coffee and talk about Jesus. That woman just said,

you know what, I think I'm done here for no real reason. And I think we've normalized that

in the church. And I just want the people ought to be scandalized by that. That's unacceptable.

It's just unacceptable. So I just had to rant about that because I see it more and more, and I'm,

I'm astonished that pastors look the other way or say, well, you know, who am I to judge here?

That's not biblical. Well, not only that, but Jesus, as you remember, talked about adultery being

the only grounds for divorce, and the disciples were so stunned that they said it's better not to get

married than to get married, not be able to get out of it. And he said, unless you're a

unique for the kingdom, that's not an option for you. And Paul picks that up in 1 Corinthians 7,

if the wife leaves, let her remain unmarried or be reconciled. Why? Because there's no adultery.

She can physically leave, but she can't divorce and remarry. And if the husband leaves,

he must not divorce. And he said, this was based on the Lord's instructions in the gospel.

And this is part of that hard teaching. We read the gospels where there were disciples who walked

away from Jesus because his teachings were hard. And we read that as evangelicals and say, well,

I would never walk away from Jesus. But you just highlighted these scriptures that people are

walking away from because it's hard. And my challenge, one of the things I do in that first section

of the book is that ultimately we live in light of hearing, well done, good and faithful servant.

And as you pointed out, life is going to go by very quickly. And then we're going to ascend.

And we're going to have to give an account for this. And if we think that that there are

the removal of consequences, simply because there's forgiveness, we haven't thought well on what

forgiveness means, forgiveness is not always mean that we absolve something. There are going to be

the loss of rewards. And this is something that the believer has to step back and say, do I really

believe this? Do I believe there's another world coming? And this Christ calling me to please him,

even in a marriage where my spouse doesn't seek to please me, that I'm going to do what Christ calls

me to do, even in a situation where my spouse isn't doing what the Lord is calling him or her to do.

And this is the challenge. This is why I don't think we have a crisis of marriage in the church.

We have a crisis of faith. That's exactly how I see it. And I think that, I mean, I even think of

people, you know, like my dad, who, you know, my parents are not, we're not evangelicals. And they

didn't, but I think that there are a lot of people just doing the right thing and saying, yeah,

this is tough, but it's the right thing. And there are other people that just say, you know,

I don't want to do the right thing. And I'm going to bail. As Christians, I think particularly,

you know, I don't normally talk about hell on the program, but I think there really is,

there's less of a fear of God or fear of hell. I mean, it says in scripture, pretty clearly,

the adulterer. Do you fear hell, ladies and gentlemen, you should, you should think about it. It's

serious. It's horrifying. But I don't know if this is a, you know, folks just going for the

cheap grace thing, like oh, wow, who's to say, you know, we're living in crazy times. But I think

if somebody is walking around talking about Jesus, talking about their Christian faith,

they need to take this more seriously, at least as I have seen in the last few years.

Well, and that's why I'm writing this book to help people who are at that crossroads, where they're

listening to the, are you going to listen to the Holy Word or to Hollywood? And it's important that

we come to a point where we revisit this again, what do I really believe? What do I really believe?

And will I act on what I believe? And if we believe this whole relationship is really hopeless,

maybe it is. But then again, the research at the University of Washington studied couples

who are very unhappy. And five years later, those couples were very happy, even though there was

no intervention. This was a revolutionary piece of information that showed that therapy wasn't

even necessary. But here's the point, people quit way too soon. But my challenge for people out

there is to hear what Eric is saying. You love the Lord. You know the Lord loves you. You want to be

faithful. You want to hear well done. It's very important that you understand that your marriage

when the epistles are written, Ephesians 1, 2 and 3 of chapters, that's doctrine 45 and 6's

application. The same in Colossians 1 and 2 is doctrine 3 and 4's application. He always swings

first and foremost on the husband-wife relationship because it represents Christ in the church

and it represents the very character of God. This is very important to the Lord. And he's calling

you to do marriage his way, even if your spouse chooses not to. And I want to say to those of

you at that crossroads, you listen to Eric, listen to me, trust me. It is worth it. If we're reading

scripture correctly, you don't want to make a decision that will result in regrets. I just interviewed

a man who's in his late 70s and he has a theme called the rest of the story because men would come to

him and say, I'm quitting. I'm quitting. He said, well, that's not the rest of the story. No, I'm

quitting. He said, let's just carry it out. Now you marry that woman. Your wife marry somebody else.

You're now dealing with her children. You're now dealing with that man who now has your children.

Let's just care. He takes this whole thing up and he said, if you don't think that you're not going

to have the same problems, what planet you live on? And he says, I've written up this document. I

want you to give it to all your divorce friends and ask them of what I've written here is true.

My belief is most of them will tell you it's true. This hot and heavy thing you're having right now,

it's going to change when her teenage daughter can't stand you. And now you're divided between her

and this daughter and the mother's going to align with the daughter. And you're going to be right

back where you were as you were in the first marriage. If you don't think that's true, you're not

thinking. And my challenge for you is to hold off here. The enemy does not want you to fulfill

Christ's call in your life. And you know that God has called you, but he's going to discredit you

and undermine you and you're not going to fulfill that calling. If you make the wrong decision here

and you need to include around you people of influence rather than listening to Hollywood,

listen to the Holy Word. Well, we have you and I have lived through the decades

Yes, watching. And I saw this happen for the first time. Well, in the 60s and in the 70s,

where divorce was normalized and it was like the Pied Piper leading everybody to think. Here's

your answer. And then think of all the lies, Emerson, the big lie cliches, right? Well, you

will see your kids as much, but you'll have quality time with them now. You know, you're not doing

your kids any favor in a loveless marriage. Like all of these lies and they are vile lies that

were pushed into the culture. And what the culture never does is it never circles back and says,

how did that work out? How did that work out? You and I have seen in the lives of our friends

and relatives how it actually works out. The effect that it has on kids and people say, well,

we're just staying together for the kids. You know what? That's a great reason to stay together,

folks, if you're just doing it for the kids, because how many kids have I seen screwed up or not helped

or you're setting a pattern for them that when the going gets tough, get the heck out of there,

that's, that is not a good thing. There's so much bad that comes out of divorce and adultery and

all this stuff. And we live in a culture that doesn't talk about that. It just sings the song of,

you know, who is Jennifer Aniston dating now? And who it just gives us this idea that we're all

living for this perfect love and this perfect something. And it is, it's really, it's not just that

these are lies, but they're harmful. People's lives have been destroyed by those lies. And it's

about time that we're honest. And that's part of what you have been doing in your ministry. The new

book is light bulb moments in marriage. And we can just give us 30 seconds before we go on the

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Well, I just want to say to that person out there that set that crossroads, please give yourself

a pause here for a moment for the sake of the kids for the sake of the call in your life. Listen to

the testimonies in this book of people who felt hopeless, who felt helpless. They truly turned

a corner and they never thought that was possible. They had a light bulb moment and here's the deal.

It's not more effort. It's just more light. I love it. Dr. Emerson Egrich, my friend. Thank you.

Suzanne and I send our love to you and Sarah. Thanks for all you do. The book is light bulb moments

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