#71 - Allen Jackson

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let's go places. Hey there folks, welcome. As you know, on this program, the Erick and Taxi Show named

not after me, but after someone who's named after me named Erick and Taxi on this show, I typically

get to talk to people that I like from whom I want to hear with whom I want to speak. Today,

folks is not an exception. Today I get to speak to my friend pastor Alan Jackson, who's the pastor

of the world outreach church in Murfreesboro, Tennessee, not far from Nashville.

Pastor Alan Jackson, it really is always a joy to have you on. Welcome back.

Good to be back, Erick. A lot of going on in the world these days. There's a lot going on in the

world. I was just at your church. I've been at your church more than any other church invited

to speak at your church more than any other church by at least double. I can't think of any other

church in America where I've spoken as often. So thank you for inviting me back despite the

vicious things I said about you from the podium. And I was recently in your church at an event

for TPUSA Faith, which was really tremendous. But that was just a few weeks ago.

And when I saw you, I realized you have a brand new book coming out and I wanted to speak to you

about that book. So that book is titled Lead with Faith. But Pastor Alan, what is this subtitle?

Because that's what really gets to it. Well, it's using your influence for God's purposes,

which I think is the whole point of being a Christ follower. You know, you have this phrase,

I've heard you use dozens of times that if you're a pastor and you won't talk about current events,

that all you want to do is preach the gospel. You question whether or not we're really pastors.

Well, I think we could say that is that's not you're not preaching the gospel and you're not

preaching out of the Bible. It's just it's kind of fake religious talk saying like, I don't want to

go there because I might lose a big tither. You know, but I think if you're a teacher and you

imagine yourself to be a Christ follower and all you do is teach English, then I think you need

to reimagine your faith or if you're a doctor and all you do is surgery, but you don't lead with

your faith in that arena. So I don't I mean, I agree pastors have to own this, but I think everybody

who imagined themselves to be under the authority of Jesus as to lead with their faith, no matter what

the label of our day job, maybe. Well, what you're saying is just true. That's all. It's just true.

But it's something that needs saying again and again and again, there's a lot of misunderstandings

about this. And I think listen, anybody that's grown up in a church, I grew up in the Greek Orthodox

church. And this is really not fair because this is not Greek Orthodox theology, but I think the

the reality for a lot of people is they show up. They see somebody in the front doing some stuff

and their job is, you know, just not to mess that up and then to go downstairs have some coffee and,

you know, try not to commit adultery or kill anybody for the next six days. It's kind of a,

it's a passive, you know, non-Christian faith. Now, I say that because I grew up in the Greek

Orthodox church, but I'm saying that that's not real Christian theology. A lot of people

grown up in Catholic churches, but tons of people get precisely the same idea in their evangelical

churches wherever you go. So folks, this is about anybody. We're talking about anybody who says,

oh, okay, I'm a Christian. So Pastor Alan Jackson, what you talk about in your book is this idea

that if that is true, whatever your job is, whatever your life is, you are to be an influence

for your faith. You're supposed to live out your faith. So a lot of people don't understand what

that looks like. So what does it look like to you? What do you say in this book about living,

using your influence wherever you are for God's purposes?

Oh, yeah, I don't ever want to bring shame to people. So the reality is that what I was aware of

in the congregation, there's hundreds of people who have remarkable leadership skills and the

confidence confidence that goes with that in their profession or an academia or the hobby of their

choice or in their home wherever it may be. But when it came to their faith, there was this appalling

lack of confidence. They don't want to pray in public. They don't want to have a comment on

scripture. They don't want to assert a biblical worldview idea. And so what I was trying to do

was help them reconcile that to gain a bit of confidence so they can begin to lead with their faith.

Because honestly, I don't believe you're going to have an argument to make when we stand before

the Lord. If you were a quiet Christian, a hidden Christian, a covert Christian. So rather than rage

against the darkness amongst us, I want to turn up the light and try to give people the confidence,

find ways to begin to identify with your faith. Start with simple ways. You develop that muscle.

You develop that courage muscle, that faithfulness muscle. So start with the simple ways. But don't

ever going to be like, you know, only acknowledging you're married when you go home at night.

That's not a very strong. Whoa, whoa, whoa. That was a great one. That's a great one right there.

That's a great, let's talk about that because that gives us a picture of what we're talking about.

Well, I mean, we have this notion that, you know, as a Christian in the church,

absolutely, when we leave the church, we leave all that behind. Well, I think it's very

analogous to saying, you know, when I'm at home at night with Kathy, I'm married. But when I leave

the house, you know, I don't want to rob all the other women in the world of the opportunity

to engage with my amazing intellect. So, you know, I kind of leave it. When I return home,

I'll be faithful and obedient and all those things. Well, I mean, clearly that's an absurd idea.

And it's equally absurd to think that you can be a Christian when you're amongst Christians,

but when you go to the corporate setting or the academic setting, you turn that faith off. It's

completely illegitimate. We were able to, I believe, put that in place and have so much drift

because for a long season in America, we had a, the fabric of our culture was Judeo Christian.

And so we could presume a set of shared values in the marketplace. But for several decades,

they've been dismantling that Judeo Christian biblical worldview, which is no longer predominant

in our culture. And yet the Christians are still behaving like it is. And we've got to use our

voices to reconstruct that biblical worldview in the places where we work in the schools where our

children go in the hospitals where we receive or give care. It's not just a church discussion.

Any more than my marriage is just a reality when I'm at home. It's got to invade the full breadth

of my relationships, or it's completely illegitimate and the same is true with our faith.

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Why not you next? Well, and also, you know, to phrase it more aggressively, you're living a lie

if you're not publicly a Christian, if you're not publicly a husband when you sort of claim

your Christian or a husband, but you're not. So the question is, what does that mean? But it is

interesting how people think that somehow, and there's many reasons for this and you know

this better than I do, but we live in a really secular culture that pretends that the world is

secular and then there's Christian faith over here on the side. That's not true. Jesus,

the Lord suffuses all of reality. He invented reality, all of reality. And this idea that, well,

it's all neutral and it's secular until I go into a religious environment, you're completely

missing it, folks. You're supposed to live your faith out in every way. Now we all know how not

to do that. You don't need to be screaming about Jesus inappropriately and inappropriate settings,

but this idea that you can somehow be neutral or secular in all these environments, that's,

I mean, first of all, you shouldn't want to, right, Ellen? I mean, you should want people to see

Jesus in you somehow, if you can, if you have opportunities, and I guess that's what you write

about in the book. It's exactly. I need God's help in every arena of my life, not just what I'm

sitting in a worship service. And in order to receive the benefits of being a part of that kingdom,

I have to be willing to be identified as a part of that kingdom. But I really think a lot of the

responsibility for this falls on the professional Christians, the clergy, because we've majored

on nuance. And we want to appear clever before the congregations that we minister to. So we've

created this big gulf between us and them. And in order for the community of faith to become salt

and light, they have to have the confidence to take their faith out. And I think we all fundamentally

understand that biblically marriage is between a man and a woman, not a political issue, it's a

biblical issue that the sanctity of human life really is a thing that we shouldn't be killing our

children. That's not a political issue, it's a biblical issue. So to helping give the boldness to

our our communities of faith to live out those principles. And I think if we can continue to affirm

them that they really do understand a great deal about the character of God and the nature of his

kingdom so that they shouldn't have to be reluctant to go forward with that in whatever setting

they're in. And when you hear somebody challenge it, it typically doesn't mean they're wiser than

you are better informed than you. It means they're less godly than you because you have an awareness

of a biblical worldview. And so we've got to have the courage to lead to put that in front of us

as opposed to for it to be some subtitle or subtext in our self identification.

Well, part of it of course comes from fear and misinformation. There are people who have this idea

that, well, you know what? I can't cross that line. I'm in a school environment. I can't talk about

God. I'm in a corporate environment. I can't talk about God. And I guess to some extent that could

be true. But I think we ought to be willing to challenge where that line is. And why ought I to

put my light under a bushel? When is that appropriate for me to say at least now's not a good time

to mention this. And when is it appropriate? And everywhere I go, I just encounter brave people

who are living out their faith, a doctor who often asks, can I pray with you to a patient?

Now most doctors, I don't want to do that. Some people don't want me to. Well, if you do it sensitively

and you give them the option to say, no, why wouldn't you do it? There are all kinds of moments that

we get in our lives where we can bless people or we can at least open the door for them. Because

many people, I think this is for me, the killers that I've known people, successful people in banking

or corporations who never say one word. And there are people around you who maybe they are people

of faith or they're open to it. And they would love you to say something. And if you ever do,

suddenly they light up. And I think we only think about the people that are going to be hostile

and angry, you know, if we try to sue you or something like that. We don't think about how many

people are really hungry for this reality that, you know, maybe we take for granted.

Well, I think you're exactly right. And there's wisdom in your cautionary note. I don't want

people to go to work and stand on their desk and preach the gospel. I want them to go live it out.

And I mean, there's simple ways you do that. You can bow your head and pray over your food. You

can put a Bible on your desk. I mean, there's ways to let it be known that you're a Christ follower.

But I think we've got to move past that. You know, the doctors that praise with this patient is

a good thing. And I understand there's vulnerability to that. But I also think doctors that work in

hospitals where they're mutulating children or teenagers is something that is Christians. We've

got to use our voice on. I don't think we can stand at the altar where there are worshipping

idols and remain silent. And I don't know where all those boundaries and all those lines are.

But I think as Christ followers, we're going to have to find a new kind of courage because we're

presiding over the most precipitous decline of Christian influence in the history of the Christian

church. And on our watch, that cannot be okay. So I don't want us to be angry or belligerent. I

certainly don't want us to be violent. But I am trying to give people permission to begin to

lead with their faith in a new way. You know, if you're an advocate for New York City, you're an

advocate for New York City wherever you go. And you may have a socialist Muslim mayor, but you're

still an advocate for New York City. And we all make peace with that. It's who you are. I mean,

we had to pray about it that we made peace with it. But I'm not going to be less of an advocate

for Jesus because I go into places that may not want to align with that. And I'm going to

bring those biblical worldview values. I think we have to be good enough at our professions

that they will they will accept our faith in the context of the excellence with which we perform

our tasks. And we've been doing the opposite. We've been kind of mediocre. And so therefore,

we hide our faith and we got to reverse that. We got to lead with our faith wherever we go.

Well, when you talk about influence again, you know, I was taking it in a certain direction,

but what you're saying now, this is the bigger thing, folks, everywhere we are in your community.

There's a school board. There's all kinds of things going on. And I really have been myself

scandalized by how Christians don't do anything or say anything when they have every right

to say something. And when I would say they have a duty to say something. There was, when I wrote my

book letter to the American church, I think the first place I spoke about it was some place on

the coast down in New Jersey. And the pastor came up to me when it was all over and said that there

had been some very divisive issue. I think on the school board or in the town council about

pushing, you know, kind of a sexual curriculum on kids in that school district.

And he thought I have to go as a pastor and speak against us, of course. His board of elders told

him, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, you can't do that. You can't, you mustn't do that. We don't,

you don't have permission to do that. And he, um, exceeded to the will of his elders and did not go.

And that horrifying measure passed and would go on to mess up kids. And he felt so guilty that he

wanted to confess this to me in the parking lot. And I said, listen, it is great that you know

that that was wrong. And that the next time you're going to go and speak up because God will give

you the strength. He'll give you the words. And he, he has us here for that to be voices for the

voiceless. All the kids that are being destroyed by, um, you know, all kinds of bad ideas in

school environments and wherever else. We, God has deputized us to do something about that. So

this lie that I'm not supposed to get involved in that. It is a vile life, folks. It is vile. And

Pastor Allen, you are, you've been so brave for so long on this. I mean, but I, I guess, you know,

because I tend to hang out with folks like you, I forget how many pastors there are. They are not

preaching this stuff that they are scared or confused or I don't know what it is. But it harms

human beings, folks. If you do not use your voice, if you do not use your influence as a Christian,

people's lives are hurt because of your silence. That's really what we're talking about. God has

deputized us. And it's unfathomable to me, Ellen. Why people continue to buy this lie or to be hiding

as though, well, maybe what I have to say, maybe it's not that true after all. I guess, you know,

is that a timidity fear that what I believe isn't really worth much?

Well, this is Purim. And I think it's the same battle that Esther faced. You know, if I be silent,

I can hide in the palace and the destruction that's coming won't touch me because I've got a ticket.

And it takes courage. But I think your experience illustrates the real foundation of this.

The pastor was willing to speak, but the Board of Elders or the Presbytery or the administrative

group was unwilling. And that's really the point. This is where this series of messages in

ultimately this book came from. I think the reasons our churches lack so much courage is the people

who fill our churches and really control our churches because their pastors come and go as

employees. They've not been given the message that they have to lead with their faith.

They think they can have faith on a Sunday morning or went for a worship service.

But if our faith does not engage our culture, our faith is illegitimate.

This isn't some theoretical faith that we get together and we recite, you know, our little

theological rhymes and go through our empty traditions. They either change our culture and

dispel the darkness or it's illegitimate. Jesus, the Messiah says, we either bear fruit or we're

cut down and thrown into the fire. And our churches will change when our business people change.

That's why leading with faith isn't a, it says, I'm not talking about worship praxis.

I'm talking about how we structure our lives. And again, when Christianity, we all understood

you shouldn't lie and you shouldn't steal, you shouldn't commit adultery. It was the fabric.

We're not there anymore. We identify as furries and we can't define what a man and a woman is.

And I mean, we're in a different place. And so we've got to bring our biblical worldview back

to the forefront. And I think what you experienced in that church is what's happening in churches.

All across our country, when people ask me to come to pastor's conferences, now I say,

I will, if you'll allow them to bring the head of their elderboard or their deacon board or their

press battery, I want them to bring the lay person that is the most powerful person in the church

because without their alignment and their agreement, most of those pastors are not going to be

able to move those systems. They'll be expelled from them. So it's going to take a fundamental change

in the hearts of God's people. That is, that is just amazing. It is just amazing. I mean, I've

heard this kind of thing over and over again, that because, you know, a lot of times you have an

elderboard or whatever and it's these business guys and they they think like lawyers, you know,

or they have this corporate view, they're not thinking God's way and shame on them. This is not like,

oh, whoops. Now, this is shameful that they're bringing worldly thinking. That's what it is,

worldly, fear-based, faithless thinking into a situation where you should be led by God, by the

Word of God. And that has happened across America. We've got a lot of corporate kinds of churches.

They're playing some game and, you know, again, it reminds me always of what do the Nazis say about

church? What do the Communist Chinese say about church? They say, if you have a church where you

just say stuff that doesn't impinge on anything outside of that church, you can have church all you

want. And that's what the devil loves. Churches just like that. That they just stay in that little

theological lane and nothing that they say will affect the world around them. Well, folks, if you're

going to church like that, that's truly not a church. It's pathetic. We are meant to take the

church into the whole world, to take the truth of God into the whole world. And it reflects, I mean,

it's kind of interesting because you talk about influence. The ultimate example of this or

one of the ultimate examples of this is Dr. Francis Collins. Very outspoken Christian the head,

he was the head of the National Institutes of Health, gigantic job, gigantic influence as a

Christian. And when push came to shove, and my friend Seth Gruber has written about this,

others have written about it, John West for the Discovery Institute has written about it,

this man who had this tremendous power and influence was unwilling to

to live out the Christian faith. Basically said, no, no, I don't want to lose because you may lose

power. But God has given you that power for his purposes. And so if you say, well, I don't want to

get involved in talking about that or that or that or that or I'll go along with this or go along

with this, you're you're you're clinging to this idea that, oh, at some point in the future,

if I keep this power, then I'll get to use it when it really matters and you don't use it when

it really matters right now. And there are plenty of Christians in positions of influence,

but that to me is the ultimate example Dr. Francis Collins who did not use his Christian influence

or sort of attenuates the Christian view down to it doesn't really mean anything. And

why are we saying this because people suffer ladies and gentlemen, people suffer when Christians

if Christians live out their faith, it's going to bless people. Did you know that?

It's going to bless people. It's not going to harm people. It's going to bless people. And

Alan, I mean, I'm sure you can think of a million examples. The book I want to say again,

the title of the book is lead with faith using your influence for God's purposes. But what else

do you talk about and lead with faith? Well, I think it's it's really about how you live your faith.

You know, I'm trying to move people off. I mean, just in my day-to-day life and interaction

with people off of this notion that you could recite a prayer, get dipped in a pool,

and then live life on your terms because I think you missed the joy of serving the Lord.

And I just don't think we've done a good job of inviting people towards engaging with the

kingdom of God. Again, we've had so much affluence and so much liberty and so much freedom. We

weren't in Iran where we were being, you know, oppressed in the most brutal of ways, or China,

or these places where there was so much overt oppression that we could afford to use our faith

like some kind of an accoutrement. I mean, just little bobble in our lives. And it's diminishing

to God and insulting. And so to invite people into this fuller expression of faith is the most

liberating way to know God. And I can't imagine not wanting to live that way. So I'm trying to

create an environment where it's making it normal. You couldn't imagine not doing that. And again,

you don't have a ledger and about it or angry about it or hostile about it. Charlie Kirk, our friend,

got hunted and killed for saying what every pastor and youth pastor and honestly every godly man

in America should have been saying. You should have all been prepared to answer those simple

questions. A few days after his death, I just said that I put it out on Instagram that if pastors

had been saying these things, it wouldn't have made Charlie seem very radical. But by keeping

your mouth shut, you let a few other people take the heat. And God is a judge. He will judge you

for your silence, especially if you're a pastor. But if you're any kind of Christian, God is a judge.

He loves you. He's with you. And he's not expecting you to do anything that he's not with you in,

that he will not be with you in. He's not leading you into embarrassing yourself or into trouble

for trouble's sake. So this is just a huge message. Pastor Alan Jackson, you have been doing this.

And in case anybody listening to this program doesn't know, they should follow you

because there are very few churches in America. Unfortunately, certainly very few of the size of

world outreach church where you are bravely speaking in this way. But this is the way

of the future folks. This is part of the revival is Christians living out their faith in every

sphere. When you do that, you will bless people. So Pastor Alan, just a final word, but the book is

lead with faith. It is brand new using your influence for God's purposes. What can we leave my viewers with?

Well, I think it's a hopeful, though. Without any question, God is moving in the earth.

I mean, every day of every week, there are these breakthroughs. You know, the AMA just recently said,

they no longer support or make normal gender modification procedures on minors. And the AMA is a

woke liberal institution, but they're making their godly stand. I don't want the liberal woke

places being more godly than I am. So God's moving in the earth. Use your voice, use your influence,

and we will celebrate the goodness of our God. Praise the Lord. My friend Pastor Alan Jackson,

thank you so much. Thank you, Eric. Keep up the good work. Hey, folks, I want to tell you about a

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