531. Ancient Artifacts Hidden Beneath the Earth and Sea Part Two

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1:20get a great deal on four-by-fours that refuse to be contained, like Jeep Wrangler. Confidence built into every drive with the most awarded SUV ever. Jeep Grand Cherokee, and freedom that can't be denied, with the open-air freedom and Jeep gladiator. After 85 years, it's no surprise that Jeep became America's SUV brand. Get a great deal during the Jeep drive-in to fall sales event. Jeep is one more awards over its lifetime than any other SUV brand, cheap in the Jeep Grill or Registered Trademarks of FCAUS LLC. The strangest discoveries of the last few centuries. Part 2! Welcome to the 2-2-Pair-Roma podcast with Hills GenoJow! Hello, welcome back listeners. Glad you guys could come back for parts of a string-dolling usual things.

2:20Yeah, when we put the show together, it's a lot more stuff than what I thought, so... We're back! Been really interesting the reaction to the first part, and people are waiting with Bated Ruff the Part 2. Yes. Yeah, we got a few people that messaged us, so they liked all the different places and things we were talking about. That's kind of cool. Awesome, thanks guys. You know, and to lot of this stuff, I was thinking we can make into a full show, but... Why not? We will! Stay tuned! You get a lot more in-depth info on some of these, but right now we're just covering the highlights of strange discoveries in the last few centuries. But before we get into that, like we always say, please hit that subscribe button, tell a friend about the show. Check out the show notes. We will have links to my books, we'll have links to Jen's books, and everything exciting, no itches 2-2-2, and also check out the Facebook page. We are going to be at a bunch of conventions coming up here real soon, so... Join us in the conventions. Yeah, let's come check us out.

3:20All right, so one of the things that I've been intrigued about for years, and we're just going to skim over this right now, but we're going to definitely make this a full show is the shroud of turin. Yeah, one of the world's most controversial religious artifacts is the shroud of turin. A linden cloth bearing the faint image of a man who appears to have suffered injuries consistent with the crucifixion. For believers, the question is enormous. Could this be the burial cloth of Jesus? Radio carbon testing performed in the 20th century dated the tested sample to the mid-eval period, but debate doesn't just disappear. Critics question sampling, the sampling, the conditions, and the repairs of the linden, and other issues. Researchers continue to examine how that image was formed. And this is where the belief and science collide in complicated ways.

4:21For some people, no laboratory result will eliminate their faith. Right? They're always going to have that the belief. For others, the medieval radio carbon date settles the historical question. And for others, the mystery of the image itself remains worth investigating, regardless of whose body is represented. Yeah, and the problem is the radio carbon dating on it was done on a patch of it that they knew was a repair. Oh, I don't know. Yeah. Okay. And I've been researching this topic for years and just tons of stuff on it. And it's just like the more you learn, the more rabbit holes you go down. I mean, it's so interesting. Well, what's interesting, though, is with that one is the wounds are, you know, like they said, are consistent with the crucifixion.

5:22Yeah. And they weren't crucifying people in the medieval times, where they were doing other types of torture. They did because the crucifixion was the lowest form of execution. Because it, you know, it was basically criminals and peasants and they got crucified. But when they were crucified, they weren't treated the same way that Jesus was. They weren't flocked. They weren't all, they were just nailed to the cross. Okay. They weren't made to carry their cross. They, you know, they didn't put the crown of thorns on and stuff like that. And the shroud of trins shows all those. Oh, it shows all the marks and a lot of people, you know, they think, well, he's whipped. But the whip that they used with it had metal tips on the ends with hooks and then and it would just, it ripped his flesh. Oh my gosh. It's so sick. And they had, they had an account of how many lashes he got and stuff like that. And it all matches with the, the stains that on the shroud. But the problem is the shroud colorization is so thin, you could take a piece of sandpaper,

6:30rub it across and it would erase the thing. Oh wow. So it's not like the colorization is into the threads. It's just on the outer edges of the threads, which makes it another reason why it's impossible to fake this thing. Yeah. Oh, that's so interesting. Yeah, we got to do a whole show. Well, I have to. Yeah. So the next one we want to talk about is the lost city of Troy. Percentriary's Troy existed in Western imagination through Homer's Iliad. You know, warriors, you had, you had warriors, you had Helen, you had, um, Achilles, you had Hector, the Trojan horse, you know, just different myths and legends. Then the 19th century, as clavations at Historic in modern Turkey, revealed layers of ancient settlements. And suddenly the questions changed, right? Maybe Troy wasn't simply imaginary. There had really been important settlements at the location associated with ancient Troy.

7:34That doesn't mean every event in Homer's epic happened exactly as described, right? Yeah. That's an important distinction. Archaeology can reveal a historical foundation beneath a, you know, a legend without proven any of the detail of the legend. Which make you wonder how many other legends began with something real. So we have Atlantis, flood stories, dragons, giants, ghost stories, stories of sky, you know, lights in the sky. How much folklore contains a distorted memory of an actual. Yeah. You know, probably all of them. Yeah, probably all of us. But, you know, I think we talked about this before. It was the Hobbits of Flores. In 2003, archaeologists working in the Indonesian island of Flores discovered remains belonging to a previously unknown type of ancient human relative. Now, these were homophloricinians.

8:36Flores... Floresinians? Florescenius. Florescenius. Okay. Homophloricinians. They were remarkably small. Adults only stood over three feet tall. Naturally, they became nicknamed the Hobbits. And this discovery was extraordinary because it demonstrates again that our human story wasn't simple. Different human species and populations existed all over, you know, even overlapping times. You know, homo sapiens weren't always alone. And that's where folklore becomes interesting. So, Flores has traditions involving small human-like beings. Does that mean local legends preserve memories of homophloricinius? We don't know. That's a huge leap. But it's intriguing question. Because oral traditions can survive surprisingly for long periods. Could cultural memories survive thousands of years? Maybe 10,000 of years?

9:38But that's much harder to demonstrate. But what I thought, you know, I just saw this thing the other day or actually it was this morning about these men in Africa, I think it was Africa. And they were talking about these little known like creatures that they all have seen. Yeah. And I can't remember what country it was, you know, because Afro-Sol, huge, you know. But they were all like, yes, they exist. And this is what they look at. Somebody had made like a carving of what they look like. And they were just like little known type creatures. It probably, you know, a little different variation. But, you know, all these men seemed genuine and saying, yeah, they exist. We've seen them. And that's the thing is, through our time on Earth, there have been so many variations of humanoid species. And whether they are the hobbits or the giant, so whatever.

10:43And even like the Neanderthals, they found out, and I watched this girl Katie all the time. She talks about ancient peoples and stuff. And what happened in the Neanderthals? Well, we don't know. We do know that they interbred with, you know, regular human type people. But again, I heard this thing about maybe the Neanderthals are the big foots. Could be. I mean, we don't know. I mean, it would be so interesting that if we could end up probably doing this, I'm probably just speaking out of turn. But, you know, DNA, everybody, and see how much personage of whatever, you know, Neanderthals, what do you think? There was a woman in Russia. Do you remember, I think we talked about it way early in our career in the podcast, in 800,000 years ago, about a woman in Russia who was a direct descendant of the Neanderthals. And she lived in like, I'm going to say like the 40s or 50s.

11:43She was probably in her 40s or 50s when they started, you know, digging into her story. But we got to look at that story. It was very interesting because she had a certain look. I don't remember what her percentage of Neanderthal, but it was extremely high. Well, they have done testing, DNA testing, and they have found that people do have Neanderthal, DNA in them. And the strangest one is the most common, or the people that have the most DNA are more people that live over by Sweden, their blonde hair, their tall, or their very light skin. So going back to the thing about Bigfoot is a lot of people think that Neanderthals are Bigfoot's. But the problem with that is the most people that have the highest amount of DNA, Neanderthal DNA are blonde, blue-eyed blonde hair, tall, fair skin.

12:44Aliens, Nordics. Because they were also talking where this came from is what they were also talking about. The Neanderthal, they think that they were covered in fur, which would be Bigfoot. Almost. I think most early species would be because as we evolve the need for clothes, you know, we wear clothes that we don't need the hair to keep us warm. Or... Although I see some pretty hairy men in my time. Or... Do you realize that us, the modern human species, is terrible. The living on Earth is terrible for us. It's everything. We sunburn. Yeah. We're not made for the sun. We have no hair. You know, I mean, we have a little bit of hair on our arms. We make it more rads. Yeah. That's what we are. Where we engineered afterwards, and we're not part of it. Because most of the world is covered in water.

13:44We can't swim. Uh-huh. Or we can't breathe underwater. Right. We can't breathe up high in the mountains. Everything about modern human is not made for this Earth. Now, I read some things somewhere because, you know, I really am trying to get into, like, more holistic type things. But you are supposed to eat tomatoes or watermelon before you go into the sun. Because it produces something that prevents you from getting a sunburn. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And I also read that we should be looking into the sun in the dawn and at dusk. And something about the rays of the sun. Oh, God, I can't remember what it was. But it basically was, like, natural healing type things. Well, I don't know because you don't want to look at the sun because you're going to burn your retinas.

14:46Well, you're not supposed to look in the direct sun. It was supposed to be like you should have like, like absorb the rays. Right. Okay. Right type thing. Early morning and before it sets. Yeah, I mean, because you got to have vitamin D. But you just got to be careful because I've heard of that where people are like, oh, I stare at the sun and I'm like, no, don't do that. No, no, no, no, that's not what we're saying. But I mean, with the neanderthal thing, it's interesting because you don't realize when we were growing up, neanderthals were always just the caveman with a sqlub. And but they were a lot more advanced than what people thought. I mean, they made tools. They made their communities and all that. And like I said, we, they were not the only species walking around on the earth at the same time. Yeah. And one of the other species is the Denis Olvins. You know, these are people that they discovered by just one finger bone because of DNA.

15:46They knew that it was different than everybody else. So here's one of the strangest scientific discoveries on our list. In a Siberian cave, researchers study a tiny finger or tiny fragment of a human bone. It wasn't a skull. It wasn't a complete skeleton. It was just a finger bone. And genetic analysis revealed something astonishing. It belonged to a previously unknown group of archaic humans that we now call the Denis Olvins. Think about what modern science just did there. Thousands of years after somebody dies, we take a tiny piece of bone, extract genetic material, and then discover entire branch of humanity. That's incredible. It is. And Denis Olvins DNA actually survives in some of the modern human populations, meaning these weren't monsters. They weren't mythical creatures. They were our relatives, people.

16:50They met other human groups and had children with them. Which means human history isn't a clean family tree. It's tangled. Like the branches are split and then they reconnect and people migrate. Meat, innerbree, disappear. And then pieces of their genetic material survive in people today. Exactly. Incredible. But I mean that could go along with aliens like the Anaconda skeleton. Let's talk about something that became famous in UFO circles. It's a tiny mumfied skeleton discovered in Chili's Atacama region. Now, the remains of their cell look really bizarre. So it has an elongated skull, a very tiny body, unusual appearance, you know, photographs were out online and people always ask alien. Genetic. Much more. Yeah, genetic analysis ultimately showed that the remains were human.

17:50You know, likely a female fetus or a newborn with unusual skeletal anomalies. And this case should make us think though because behind a sensational parodormal photograph, there can be a human being. Somebody who deserves dignity, you know, the mistreats shouldn't erase the humanity. Because think about how many people are born with, well, let's just say deformities or whatever. There's so many, I mean, there's uncountable deformities that can happen to a human body. Like, Timothy. Timothy. Who's that? The raccoon. In Seattle. Oh, Timothy. Oh, Timothy. Tell me of your skeleton deformity. Oh, my God. Such a good boy. Timothy, I forget what the house of song goes. How did they film that thing? I seen that so many times. Oh, yeah. I mean, like, there's like 50 different T-shirts. People are trying to solve about Timothy. When you said, I didn't know that was his name.

18:51You know, they named him. The girls who named him. And she's like, well, he just kind of looked like a Timothy. Okay. Okay. But, you know, anything's possible in any species, you know, you have. That's what I mean. That, I think that one is like, they call it short skeletal, something. Okay. But, you know, I mean, we tend to not want to see something that's not symmetrical. You know, that's not perfect. It's like nobody's perfect. No. I got this dang poison ivy growing all over my arm right now. And I got these damn good looks. What the hell? I know. He got all the looks in the family. Do you remember what? Growing up, we always heard stories of the water heads. Yes, out in point plays. Yeah, they were. There's everybody has stories, but I just heard the thing on the YouTube. The tubes. I was, you know, listening to videos because I was working.

19:54And somebody actually mentioned that. I'm like, oh my god, I haven't heard about that. Definitely a legend, you know, like a lore and legend. All right, so let's get back to our list here. The next thing we're going to talk about is something we've talked about before. And to me, I think it is a spaceship. Okay. Symbolthic sea anomaly. Back in 2011, we just did our evening team descended on a strange looking sonar feature. On the floor of the Baltic Sea. The image went viral. You can still look at him online because it looked like the Millennium Falcon. And you know what happened next? UFO aliens spacecraft, secret Nazi technology underwater base or portal. Yeah, choose your weapons. Scientists examining the samples and geological context have offered a natural geological explanation. But that sonar image becomes more like paranormal gold.

20:56Right? That's another lesson. Humans are always wanting to seek patterns. You know, we're creatures of habit. So show us a circle on the ocean floor and eventually somebody will see a spaceship. Sometimes that's how mysteries are born. Not from what object actually is, but from what it resembles. It's what like, what is that called? Where you pair dole. Pair dole. Yeah, but I mean, come on. The thing looks like a spaceship. You can clearly see where it hit the floor of the ocean, carved out a path before it stopped. Natural, you know, natural formations. Not going to do that. Yeah. Just two random. Yeah. Another mystery we want to talk about is the great Zimbawi mystery. And it's kind of a darker lesson. So the ruins of the great Zimbawi are among Africa's most impressive archaeological sites. So there's massive stone structures that were built by ancestors

21:58of the Shona people. But European colonizers had difficulty accepting that African people had created such monumental architecture. What ever. So alternate explanations were invented. The Phoenicians, Bible figures, foreign civilizations, anything but the local African civilization being responsible. Which shows us that mysteries aren't always innocent. Sometimes people can create mystery because the real answer conflicts with their prejudice. Yeah. And that's something paranormal researchers, you know, should remember. Ask the questions, challenge assumptions. But also challenge the assumption that ancient people couldn't possibly accomplish. Extraordinary things they could and they did. Yeah. Of course they did. I mean, on the last show we talked about the different civilizations building things like go blackily tepe, you know. Because we're finding things all the time

23:01like the Baltic soul, sea anomaly, but also like the Franklin expedition shipwrecks. In 1845, John Franklin led a British expedition seeking the Northwest Passage. With two ships, the HMS, Ambrus and the HMS Terror. 129 men, they vanished. For more than a century, the Franklin expedition became one of the greatest mysteries of the Arctic exploration. Search parties found graves, notes, artifacts, human remains. But into it oral history provided crucial information. So some of the evidence suggested starvation, disease, eventually desperate attempts to escape the frozen landscape. Then in 19 or 2014, Errubis was found and in 2016, the terror was found.

24:03Imagine searching for a ship for more than 160 years. And then seeing it underwater, the mystery wasn't completely solved, but subtling the mystery ships weren't missing anymore. And into it, knowledge had been pointing research to important answers all along. And again, sometimes the information was there, but people just weren't listening. Yeah. And shipwrecks are still emerging from the sea. Okay. So discoveries like these aren't finished. You know, like we've talked about many times. Even today, ancient shipwrecks continue to be located under the Mediterranean and other seas. Cargo can remain on the seabed for 2,000 years. Anchors, pottery, pieces of the hall. Every wreck is essentially a frozen moment. Yeah. A ship leaves a part. Cargo's loaded, cruise aboard, destination ahead,

25:03something happens. It could be a storm, a collision, you know, navigation layer, warfare, fires, you know, the ship sinks. Nobody knows in that moment that archaeologists, archaeologist, archaeo, archaeo people. Diggers. Yeah. Nobody in that moment realizes that archaeologists may eventually arrive 2,000 years later and find their ships. Right. And the ocean is probably the world's largest museum. And most of it hasn't been excavated. So think about that. How many ships are down there? You know, not just the Titanic sunk. You know, how many artifacts, how many human remains, how many objects that completely change something we think we know. I mean, just look at like what when we talked about the Great Lakes. And the shipwrecks, the amount of shipwrecks in the Great Lakes, and there's, you know, some of the Great Lakes are so cold that everything is just perfectly preserved. Yeah. It's bodies and everything.

26:04Yeah, so bizarre. And so bizarre. Well, you know, that's when discoveries really become paranormal. So let's ask a bigger question. Okay. Why do archaeological discoveries become connected with paranormal theories so quickly? I think it's because the mystery of it really creates a vacuum. And humans hate empty spaces. Sure. If archaeologists say we don't know exactly what this object was used for, someone else will say, well, I do because there's always that person. Because it is aliens. It is Atlantis. It is giants. You know, ancient electricity or lost super civilizations. And you know what is time travelers? Or internet interdimensional beings? Internet beings. Internet beings. It's got to be. And some of those ideas are really fun to explore. And that's why, you know, part of we love these paranormal subdires.

27:05But there should always be a line between that's an interesting possibility and this has to be proven. Yeah, because, you know, mysteries deserve better than just fake, you know, certainty. Oh, this all TikTok is fake certainty. Yeah, I got a quote. I got a, yeah, I got to write that down because I'm, I'm trademarking this. I don't watch TikTok. I used to, but now it's all ads. It is all ads. Is it? It's back to, you know, you can't watch something interesting. It's just people, bashing on people or crying about their life or ads. It's like boring. Yeah. But anyways, mystery deserves better than fake certainty. And that applies to skeptics too, because if we generally don't know, then say we don't know. Yeah. And we really don't know what's still buried. You know, here's the thought I wanted everybody listening to really considers most human history has happened before

28:07any kind of document, you know, documentation. Even after writing was developed, only a fraction survives. Cities vanish. You know, coastlines change, sea levels change, earthquakes, bury settlements, volcanoes that we've, those been known to, you know, Pompeii, berries, everything. Forrester reclaimed desert, you know, covers roads. Ice preserved bodies, yeah, but box preserved them also and caves prevent bone or preserve the bones and everything changes. I think that within what they say, if it first stopped, if all humans left Earth right now a thousand years from now, it would be unrecognizable. And we're nowhere near finished finding things. You know, the Lidar technology can reveal structures between super dense jungles. There's ground penetrating radars that can detect anomalies without excavation,

29:08which I think is really interesting, you know, that we don't have to dig the stuff up to see what it looks like. Ancient DNA can identify populations from tiny fragments. Satellite imagery can expose forgotten roads and settlements. There's artificial intelligence, which can help researchers examine huge collection of texts and images and, you know, where that would take us, you know, thousands of hours to scour and go through things. And underwater robotics can reach places diverse can. Yeah, which means the next anti-catherian mechanism may already be accessed. It's just still buried. You know, the next lost city may already be beneath the forest or the next unknown human relative may be sitting in a cave. A haunted cave. A haunted cave. You know, the next mystery manuscript may be sitting in a private collection, someone that nobody knows about. Or the discovery might already be sitting in a museum drawer,

30:10like misidentified and ignored. And waiting for somebody to look at it differently. Yeah. That reminds me of the Bat Creek Stone in my presentation on the giants and all that. I talked about the Bat Creek Stone, which is a small little stone that they found in Bat Creek, Tennessee. And it has writing on it. And they always thought it was Native American writing. So they put it up in a museum. And one time someone went in there and said, why is that upside down? And they're like, what do you mean? They said, that's upside down. That's Hebrew writing. That's right. Yeah. So they turned it over and it's the words with him. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. Now, what about the discoveries we would want to see? Okay, Joe, question. Yeah. If you could witness one archaeological discovery in history, which one? That is hard because there's so many. But I still would like to go to go back Lee Tuppey. Yeah. I think that is when we do the research, I think you're going to find out that that is more

31:12important than people could ever imagine. I would want to see Tudank. You know what? I want to see Cleopatra's grave. Oh, really? Which they think they have found. Really? And that's probably going to come out in 2027. Maybe a little bit is out right now. But, um, yeah, I would, you know, I'm out for like strong powerful women and I want to see, you know, like what their tombs are looking like, not just Tudankowns. Yeah, but we had the opportunity to look at the stuff that was taken out of Tudank of King Tutts. Tudank here at the Toledo Museum. Yeah. Or no, no, I'm sorry. It was that, um, Coastside. Co-Side. Imagination Station. Yeah. Whatever. That place downtown. That's science plays for kids. That was so cool to look at the artifacts. Yeah. We were there for the Native American movie.

32:12And they had the drum circle going and all that. And here we are working or walking through these artifacts. And you had the drum circle going and all that. It was really cool. It was a blend of cultures for sure. Yeah. You have ancient Egypt and then you have, I want to say modern, you know, Native culture because Native culture goes back, you know, tens of thousands of years. But compared to, you know, Egyptian, which could go back 12 or 15,000 years. You know, it's interesting. I mean, it's, it is like the Tudankowns tomb, you know. I'd love to be had the stand behind Howard Carter when he first looked inside. You imagine being back there and what was he? 1800 or 13, 1930s or whatever. I don't know when he found it. But could you imagine he was looking for something and all of a sudden he broke a hole in the wall or something. It's the stuff you see in the movies. Yeah. You know, you know, Raiders of the Lost Ark or the Mummy. Which was probably one of the greatest movies I love to watch.

33:16Yeah. The Mummy and Underworld are my favorite. And got one with the wind. But anyways. But imagine, you know, standing about that antithecic mechanism, you know, and holding something in your hand that nobody is touched in a thousand years. Yes. Yeah. I think that's like, maybe that just goes back to my childhood. Like, always reading those books about the lost city, Inca Gold and, you know, Loch Ness Monster, those things that you just want to discover something of value, Yeah. Of interest. Yeah. And I've thought about that. Like, I mentioned, I believe on the last show about going out in the backyard. I could dig up my backyard and find something. Yeah. You don't know. But I got a question for you. What, what undiscovered thing would you, would you most want archaeologists to find out tomorrow? The Library of Alexandra. Oh, yeah. Some hidden cache of scrolls that somehow survived.

34:17Hmm. That does a good one. Imagine thousands of lost ancient books, plays we don't have scientific works, historical records, counts of civilizations we barely knew. Yeah. I mean, I'd want something that answers one of the huge mysteries, you know, maybe completely intact ancient archive that tells us exactly what happened during some period that was buried or we didn't understand. Yeah, or Atlantis. Yeah. You know what, I would like, if I had unlimited funds and I could do, you know, something on a bucket list, I want to go to some of the oldest private libraries, like in castles or, you know, ancient, ancient, you know, establishments and go through their library and open those books and see what's hidden in those books. Yeah. You know, what books, first, you know, what books are in there,

35:20you know, maybe go to England and go to the oldest castle and go to the library and see, you know, are there letters in there? Are there, you know, secret passageways behind it with even older books or something? But it's weird that you mentioned it because I used to go to the library a lot and I really don't go that much anymore because of the Google and all that. Google. I thought it was so interesting when I would go to the library and I'd be looking for a book on photography or whatever. And I would find these books in with the other books that you knew were like from the 20s or even earlier, just these old books that were mixed in with just the regular books. And sometimes I would pull them out. One thing that you always look at is all those old books still have the library cards inside them. Oh, it's a little old. That they would write the dates on. Uh-huh. And I used to look at those. That's cool. Yeah. That's history right there. I love old library cards. Maybe I should try to find some of the internet or as I would garage sale or something.

36:21Think about this. What if Atlantis was found? Just imagine tomorrow morning, breaking news. Archaeologists announced they found the unknown civilization beneath the ocean. Large structures, writing artifacts, evidence of maritime travel, and the dates match the period people associated with some version of the Atlanta story. What happens? Yeah, the internet breaks just like when we post. Immediately. Like when we post a new show. Exactly. Yeah. Every person who has ever made an Atlantis documentary goes, I told you so. But scientifically, the first question would be, where is it? How old is it? Who built it? Why is it underwater? What does the writing say? What connection did it have with the surrounding culture or land? Yeah. I mean, that's why the discovery would be so exciting, though. I mean, real discoveries don't end the questions. It creates hundreds of new ones. When we see that all the time. Yeah.

37:22It's, you know, you think about could an advanced civilization be totally forgotten? No, I think so. This brings us to the biggest alternative history questions. Could an advanced civilization have existed in deep prehistory and then totally disappeared? Well, that really all depends on what you think of it as advanced. You know, could prehistoric scientists have been more organized, more knowledgeable, more interconnected than earlier generations of archaeologists assumed? You know, and I believe absolutely. Discoveries continue to demonstrate sophisticated prehistoric behavior. We talked about that with the, with the Neanderthals. But could an individual civilization like ours exist tens of thousands years ago without leaving recognizable evidence? You know, that's the, that's the bigger claim.

38:23Yes, because cities leave evidence, mining leaves evidence, industries leave chemical signatures, you know, metal will leave traces, agriculture, changes, landscapes. So large populations leave enormous archaeological footprints, like that city under the city, under that farmer field. So the more technological, intensive, a hypothetical civilization would become, the harder it would make it to completely disappear. But there might have been some sophisticated cultures and, you know, whose architecture was largely wood, you know, or earth, you know, or other perishable materials, you know, and sea levels rise, ice ages flood, areas, you know, of coastlines, so underwater archaeology may still have a major part and may find more. But this is what I was talking about before is I believe,

39:27and looking at the stonework that we find from the pyramids and all that, I mean, the pyramids alone, people think that they were built during Egyptian time. I believe they were built before that because it aligns with Orion's belt as it was hundreds of thousands of years ago. You know what I mean? And if there was a civilization, the only thing that would be left would be rock. True. Because everything else eventually would nature would reclaim. Yeah. I mean, that's a huge one. That's, that's, you know, I mean, that goes along with like discoveries that change what humanity really means. Yeah, maybe the strangest discoveries are artifacts are us. Yeah. Like Neanderthals and Devastonians and Devastovans. Devastovans. I always say that wrong. Homo Florescesis. Florescesis. Whatever. Old people. Yeah. Old, no, not culture. Not old people.

40:28Never mind. Take that out. Other ancient human relatives. Every new discovery makes the human family tree more complicated. There was a time when many people imagined human evolution as just like a straight line. You know, primitive ancestors slightly less, not primitive ancestors, modern humans. But that's not what the evidence shows. It's more like a, you know, branching network. Different groups existed. Some overlap. Some met. I believe most don't have. Some interbred. And then eventually a lot of them disappeared. And when you think about that from a paranormal perspective, there were once multiple kinds of humans walking around this planet. So that's not mythology that science. Which is pretty wild if you think about it. So imagine you're a trying traveler, right? Riving 40 or 50,000 years ago. You might encounter different human populations that look

41:31noticeably different from one another. And the ancient world was stranger than we imagined sometimes. Yeah. It's probably a lot more than we could imagine. Yeah. I just, I just keep going back to it. You know, I believe that there were like the Native Americans, like I said before, believe that there were different worlds. And I think that those worlds meant different civilizations that rose, thrived, and then something happened where they died. And got buried. You know, we may, you know, there's core samples in the ice sheets that go down so far. And they find stuff like hydrocarbons and stuff that can only be made by industrial pollution and stuff like that. You know, so I think that it's my belief that there were civilizations that were more advanced than us that just like for easy terms died off.

42:31Yeah. And you know, that also lends the thought to could cryptid legends be more cultural memories. And they bring us into, you know, like a dangerous but fantasizing territory. I don't know if I want to say dangerous or not, but talking about cryptids. Like Bigfoot or Wildman, little people, giants, human-like creatures and folklore could any legends preserve cultural memories of a stink or, you know, human relatives? Well, I mean, there's really no solid evidence of Bigfoot as a surviving the end at all. Or anything like that. But I like to say there is, but let's make this clear. Okay, definitely. So the broader questioning here is interesting. How long can oral tradition preserve information? We know some oral traditions can preserve memories of environmental events

43:35for many generations. So when a legend describes a creature, we shouldn't automatically assume it's is literally describing an extinct species. But we shouldn't underestimate cultural memory. Sometimes the old stories preserve history in symbolic form. Yeah, I mean, gosh. Do you take it at face value or do you take it as like the telephone game where each generation adds or deletes something as it goes on? One of the things in like the Navajo and different tribes, there are oral traditions when we talk about shamans and stuff like that. Their oral tradition had to be precisely word for word. Which is amazing that they would even think like that. But they talk about Bigfoot. They talk about, you know, the wild man, the Bigfoot, the Sikita, whatever.

44:38And they have oral traditions that go back thousands of years talking about the same stuff that we're talking about now. Yeah. So interesting. And why would we want the impossible explanation? So here's something psychological. Why do people sometimes prefer aliens over human ingenuity? Well, that's easy. The aliens are exciting. True. But I think there's more to it. Mystery makes us feel like reality still contains some hidden doors, right? So if every ancient structure has a straightforward explanation, the world feels smaller. It might be one artifact, you know, might be impossible. But suddenly anything could be true. Yeah. And Lannis could exist. Ancient astronauts could have visited, which I believe it did. Could for gotten technologies exist. The only hidden chambers, secret histories. I mean, I found, you know, a hidden room in my attic.

45:38I didn't know after living there for 10 years. So anything's possible. But, you know, I understand the attraction. I love mysteries. And that's why we do the show is, you know, I think we don't need to make history any stranger. It's already very strange. Yeah, very strange. But I love it. Yeah. I love the mystery. Mm-hmm. I love it. Now, what about the most frightening discoveries possible? Okay. Let's end with an experimental thought. What would be the most frightening archaeological discovery humanity could make? I'll tell you mine. Look, go ahead. Evidence that may advance civilization existing before us. And somebody, you know, and somebody destroyed it. Exactly. Imagine excavating a deep layer underground. And you find evidence of a sophisticated culture and then everything stops. Every city abandoned at approximately the same time. Evidence of a catastrophe. And then you discover writing, like a warning that something happened to them.

46:42And whatever caused it was cyclical. So mine would be if vampires really existed. Oh, okay. But you talk about, you know, and whatever caused it was such a electrical or a cyclical. Citicle. I can say that. But circular. That's exactly what tower 18 in Gobekli talks about. That's why I say we need to do a whole show on Gobekli. Because this is exactly what's talking about. A civilization that was lost. And Gobekli Tepe was not destroyed. It was buried on purpose so that it would be preserved. Wow. That's so cool. Yeah. We're making a movie, Jeff. Yeah. But you think about, you know, who started it? All right. That's the deepest fear behind many lost civilization stories. Not that they're really about the past, but they're about us. If a great civilization existed and disappeared, then the civilization isn't permanent. Yeah. Neither are we. Neither are we though.

47:45But, you know, we've traveled through many centuries of discovery tonight, today, whenever you're listening. And we've looked at ancient machines, lost cities, mysterious manuscripts, frozen bodies, shipwrecks, underground cities. We talked about unknown human relatives, you know, like your strange uncle Charlie, who, you know, only comes to the family when you're in the end of the month and a while. Empty ships, you know, weird things that happen out in the wilderness, objects whose purposes we have forgotten. And artifacts that turned out to be cokes, like what was the famous one, the jackalopers? The jackalop. You know, maybe the biggest lesson is that history isn't finished. I hope not. Every generation thinks that it understands the past. And then somebody digs a hole or enters a new cave or scans the ocean floor, tests the bone. Somebody, you know, uses these AI things to translate

48:47in the description and then the whole story will change. Yeah, maybe it's not complete, but, but enough to remind us how much we've lost. And how much is still waiting under deserts and beneath jungles inside mountains, below cities, under ice, or at the bottom of the ocean? Yeah, maybe ever even sitting unnoticed in a museum basement. And that's why I love this subject. We don't have to believe every theory. We don't have to accept every paranormal explanation. And we don't have to say it's aliens who built something, but just because we don't understand it, right? We should never lose our curiosity. And sometimes the words we don't know are the end of the story or the beginning. Yeah. So tonight before we leave you, imagine this, summer on Earth right now. There may be an object nobody has seen for thousands of years.

49:48Maybe it's beneath 20 foot of soil. Maybe it's sealed behind some stone wall. Maybe it's buried beneath the modern city. Maybe it's inside and then explored cave. Oh, and honey caves. Maybe it's resting on the ocean floor. And someday someone will find it. Maybe tomorrow, maybe a hundred years from now. And when they do, everything we thought we knew about one piece of history could change. The past isn't gone. It's buried. And sometimes it comes back. Well, thank you for joining us on another journey into the strange mysterious unexplained here on the Dutu Dutu Paranormal Podcast. So if you enjoyed tonight's episode, make sure that wherever you listen into the podcast, you know, share the episode with somebody who loves archaeology, ancient mystery, paranormal history, lost civilizations, or just unexplained discoveries. We'd love to hear from you.

50:49What is the strangest discovery you ever made? Yeah. Put it on our Facebook page. Yeah. All right. Well, thank you for listening. This week, I hope you enjoyed these little skim over episode. Really great. I love these kind of things. Yeah. So please, like we always say, hit that subscribe button. Tell a friend about the show. Check out their show notes. And we'll talk to you next week. Yay. Bye, everyone. You

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