28 Years Later: The Bone Temple with Kenice Mobley

0:00Welcome to Dr. horror. This is a mental health horror podcast where each episode my guest and I pick a horror movie or series to match our mood. My next guest. Let's call her a friend of this podcast because she's been on before. She's absolute delight, a comedian, a filmmaker. And may I say a collazure? Please welcome Kenis Mowbally back to Dr. horror. Kenis, how are you? Hello, thank you so much for having me back. I am doing quite well. I mean, the world is a mess and still we persist. I yeah, I feel like I don't know. There's like a fire and we're just like little ants and we're trying our best, but there's a fire and that's okay. It's like we'll live hopefully. And one of those things, this is, you know,

1:05part mental health podcast. I'm always looking for ways to do my little things while the fire is blazing. Can you share a little bit about your collage journey that you're currently on? And what has it done? Has it done anything good for your mental health? I think it really has. So I last summer because I don't have a job, I went to go stay with my mom for two months and I rented my place out here in New York and I went to stay with my mom. But staying with your mom brings back a bunch of childhood stuff because it was the same house that I grew up in. And it also is like, wait, what am I doing during my days? It is not just entertaining a 70 one year old woman. I need something for myself. Something that is like, don't bother me during this time. I'm doing a thing. And part of that was I joined a gym in Charlene, North Carolina for two months. And I just, I went and I worked out almost every day. And I also started collaging.

2:07My mom has decades of magazines. And so I started by cutting them out. But then I was like, can you sir, just doing what you did in New York where you cut things out and then you just have a giant folder of things that you cut out that you're too afraid to use because if you use it once, then you won't have it anymore. And is this collage idea good enough to warrant never having these images again? And I was like, okay, to actually do it, I think you should try doing it digitally. So I started taking pictures of the cutouts from the magazines and then bringing them into Canva and then arranging them from there. And because I'm arranging them there and it's very low stakes, and I don't have to say goodbye to that image forever, I am much more likely to do a collage. And one I was in Charlotte, I was doing one every single day. Now that I'm back in New York with my life and trying to do other creative projects as well, I'm doing one every other day, every third day, but I'm still doing it and experimenting with motion. If I see a piece of art that I'm like,

3:12oh, I want to replicate some elements of that, I can practice that in my collaging. And I think, and I hope that I can take those skills that I'm learning from that and bring them to the other art that I do. I love that. Also, what healthy sort of mental health coping mechanisms, I myself have recently delved into exercise, trying to do that three days a week. It honestly is what an obvious statement, but game changer for one's mental health. And the collaging, I think, is something you put on my radar. So I am realizing if you do not have a magazine subscription, in my personal experience, it has been a lot harder to get my hands on magazines. The only two magazines I have right now, I did take from two different doctors offices. I took a people magazine and I took a like a LLB in catalog thinking that there might be nature and animals in it,

4:14but it's just people wearing vests because of socks. Do you know, I'm just curious in your mom's case, because similarly, I would say both of my parents are hoarders. My dad, it's the newspapers. So I really, I think you can really understandably because of the generational gap and things going digital and publications going extinct or only going digital, that you're going to have better luck going to someone's home who is over 50, over 55, who's going to have some physical, some, some magazines. Do you, is there a certain subscription? I'm just curious, uh, that your mom had or hats. Like, was it peoples? Was it national geographic? I love to get my hands on national geographic. My mom had a lot of the respectability black magazines that it's like all like middle class black families had. So in the 80s, we had jet, but we moved to essence and ebony and so we had a lot of those, but in addition, when I was growing up and I know that this deeply affected my case

5:20and my visual styling, we got, there was a time when my mom made a good amount of money and I think I pressure her to get magazines and so we got architectural digest. We got Vogue. We got Marie Claire. We got food and wine. Like, we got a lot of magazines and I was a kid. So there was a nice chunk of magazines and also I did get magazines in New York because I got one of those like, oh, we'll give you, it's like one issue a month or something and then you can't figure out how to cancel it and that's how they make their money. I did eventually figure out how to cancel it, but I have those and then what I use now, I got from my buy nothing group people have posted. I'm trying to get rid of a bunch of magazines and I've taken those. So for your collage and come over, I will give you because I have a bunch of them still because I refuse to throw them away just in case and now what I do, and this is only if you're doing it digitally because you can't cut them

6:20out, but there is a photo book library as part of the book from library and I will check out, I don't let myself check out one book at a time, but I'll check out a nice glossy book and then I will go through and see what I want to take pictures of and I'll take pictures of those and use that. I love that. Yeah, these all sound like great ideas. My other idea also didn't work out. I went to two different wall greens and asked if I could collect the magazines that they were going to throw out. One person gave me a straight up no and then the second person who was really nice, but kept looking around like he was going to get in trouble was like come back later and then he wasn't there. Oh, so I love the idea of, you know, I like to try and not be wasteful. So there is something particularly satisfying about taking someone else's old stuff that they were going to throw out. So I think I probably will take you up on that. Check out, also check out your buy nothing groups, check in with old people because they don't know how to use buy nothing groups,

7:24but they do have too much shit in their house. You know, an old person who lives in Brooklyn, just ask them, hey, even the old magazines, because they might honestly. I will keep this in mind. Okay. Well, with that mental health tip, and to me, it's collusion. It's mental health. And, you know, talk to some old people, take their magazines and have a conversation. Have a conversation. Lots of reasons. That's right. Yes. Yes. Yes. Number one, take their magazines and come their friend and get into their wills. Obviously. It's only my dream. Yeah. So I wanted to have you on Dr. Horde today because it came to my attention, well, just from us, you know, chatting, that we both liked 28 days, 28 years later, the bone temple. Yeah. And it sounds like we are, you know, it did not do very well at the box office, despite really good reviews. Yeah. So hopefully this episode is going to convince many people to

8:30watch it. And then we'll get a third, a final movie of what should be a trilogy. Right. So I like to match a mood with the movie. And for me, maybe this is very like new year, new me, but I really, I mean this. I am trying to go into this year being hopeful. And my takeaway, because we went to see 28 years later, the bone temple together, the second time we both watched and my takeaway from that movie is, is hopeful. Would you do you feel that from this movie, at all? 100% I think. And are we spoiling this movie or not? We are spoiling. So both made me hopeful in the fact that our main character in this really seems to be Dr. Kelsen. Dr. Kelsen. Kelsen, sorry. Yeah. Kelsen from that 70s show. That's what I thought of. I'm a lineal. I accept that. So Dr. Kelsen, Ray finds his character, is that he does start to

9:34develop an air quotes cure for the virus. And we don't know how applicable that is across things. But the fact that there's a single person whose mind has been lifted from the fog of infection is really hopeful. And the fact that sure his zombie dick is out from the movie. And you're like, wow, maybe you're going to get to use that not just with the infected. Good for you, man. But it's like that is one element of hope. So we have that. But then we have someone who is trying to capitalize on the energy of this state of the UK with the zombie infected. And they are going around killing people. And they are stopped based on the actions also of Dr. Kelsen. That made me so happy. The bad guy Jimmy in the end meeting his getting his come up in. I was thrilled. Yes. Yeah. So last to discuss, I will say right up top, you know, my favorite relationship in this movie

10:41was between Dr. Ian Kelsen and Samson. Yeah. That the other part of to me, hopefulness and hope, like, yes, the friendship, unlikely friendship is is a theme that I love. And also while the world is on fire, I think friendship and community is also it gives me hope as well. So, okay. So with this movie, I am curious. Actually, okay, I have a question that is slightly related to the movie. I've had this conversation with my husband before, which is if it came down to it, there were, you know, a zombie apocalypse, how easy or hard would it be for you to kill a loved one? Now, I just want to share with you. I fear that I might not act in time. I would be like, no, you're still my husband or no, you're still my friend. I love you. If you don't eat me, we can make this work. And then I would get eaten. But do you think you could do it in time?

11:47I think I could. I think everyone, not everyone, but a lot of people think that they could. I like this question a lot. I maybe it depends on the person. It might depend on a person, even so I've told like people who I love more than anyone else, like, hey, if the time comes, I will hold a pillow over your face because I know that you don't want to go through this. And so part of me thinks in the same way that like, this is so dorky, you know, except this, where I was in high school, there was, we were in the cafeteria full cafeteria time. Everyone is eating. It's very packed. Somebody released a mouse into the cafeteria. And everyone is screaming and running around. And I don't deal well with the energy of that. And so I stand up. I'm a freshman. I'm one of the youngest, I'm one of the youngest people there, one of the smallest people there. But I'm like, you make a V with your feet. You get that room. And then we get the room. We trap the mice. I grab it from between this person's feet and I throw it into a trash can.

12:52And everyone calls the fuck down. Incredible. Yeah, I just, I need, I'm like, hey, I know that this is a rough situation. I also know that you would not want to be like this. Yeah, we have to, I love you. And because I love you, I will see you in the face. You know what? That actually makes a lot of sense. And I think I tend to veer towards like, have you seen Sean of the dead? Yes, Sean. I love classic. A classic. And spoiler alert in that movie, Sean ends up handcuffing his friend who has turned into a zombie in his shed so they can play video games together. But when you put it the way you put it, that's actually very thoughtful for your loved one. Meaning in my case, I'm going to remember that when there, if there is a zombie apocalypse, that I would actually be doing them a favor. Because no one's got, I wouldn't want to be around yeah, if I've turned into something. I wouldn't want to put my loved one at risk. I wouldn't want

13:54to potentially be the cause of them getting the infection. So yeah, you better shoot me in the face. I mean, make sure that it's like that's just like, get it done. Yeah, but make sure that I'm actually am bitten. Don't just like, hey, she pushed a little bit so we shot her head off like no. But like in 28 days later, when Selena kills her friend very quickly, because he's like, noticing that he's been bitten during a conflict. And she's like, hey, boom. And that is a moment where they come as act later. And it's like, I wouldn't hesitate to kill you. And she hesitates and thankfully Jim is in a zombie. But if I love you, that is the kind of thing that I can do for you is to make sure like, this is fucked up. I'm going to keep saying that throughout the podcast. My mom is 71 years old. Yes. If we've had conversations about what would justify me putting the pillow over her face, but I know that my sister's wouldn't be able to do that.

14:58But I know that because I have the relationship that I have with my mom, that I know her, that I love her, that I know what she would not want to be and how she would not want to be. And so I'm like, I will be the person who makes the decision to unplug you. I love you. I will be that person. Well, that's why that's a turn this into a caregiving podcast. But I, you know, I've done my fair share of caregiving for both parents. That's why it's good to have that written down in a living will. My dad made it clear. He wants to be unplugged. Yes. And it makes it, I mean, okay, sure. That situation is never going to be easy. But in his case, he didn't have that for my grandmother. And in the end, he did pull the plug, but it was this, you know, he didn't want to. So to me, to know that about the person you love, truly, like, yes, I have something that I haven't filled out here that my mother-in-law gave me called the death book. I still haven't

16:00filled it out, but it's literally like, you know, put your bank account password in here, put your Netflix password. That sounds perfect. I want it. No. Can I order it somewhere? The death book? The death book, yeah, remind me. Okay. I can find it and tell you the name of it, but yeah, it's, I just haven't filled it out yet, but it's in my home. Hell yeah. Exima is unpredictable, but you can blur a less with epgless. A once monthly treatment for moderate to severe exima. After an initial four-month or longer dosing phase, about four and ten people taking epgless, achieved itch relief and glare are almost glare skin at 16 weeks. And most of those people maintain skin that's still more glare at one year with monthly dosing. Empglis, Libri Kizumap, LBKZ. A 250-mg per 2-ml injection is a prescription medicine used to treat adults and children 12 years of age and older who weigh at least 88 pounds or 40 kilograms with moderate to severe exima. Also called atopic dermatitis that is not well controlled with prescription therapies used on the skin or topicals or who cannot use topical therapies. Empglis can be used with or without topical corticosteroids. Don't use if you're allergic to epgless, allergic reactions can occur that can be severe.

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18:04So in high school and in middle school to a certain extent, me and my sister, my twin sister, re-determined like the movie that everyone is going to go see that weekend. So we were the big planners of this. And so every weekend we would be like, okay, we're going to go see this at this time. And so we were always at these movie theaters. And the week this came out, we're like, we're going to go see 28 days later. You guys, this is going to be the sickest movie you guys don't even understand. We went to go see it. And everyone else was like, I didn't really like it. And I was like, you guys are dead wrong. This is a classic. This movie was amazing. And the fact that you guys can't see that, like I respect your taste less. Because you guys didn't understand how good this was. And I was proven correct. I am right. Hell yeah. Still the test of time. 28 years or it's like 25 years later. Dude, I'm fucking right. You absolutely are. Would you say the people that didn't like it, was it like, oh, it's too violent, like too scary? Or they just just didn't like get it? Like just like get it.

19:05I didn't think that they were appreciating the ideas that were being discussed. And I mean, I'm not saying it's like a light handed film. So in some ways, it is heavy handed that zombies are a threat. But even more so is other people and what they can do to each other. Yeah. But they were like, I didn't really like it. And I don't think they liked an examination of what evil is or anything like that. And I was like, it was violent. It didn't look like other movies. Because it was shot digitally. And now people joke that it looks like it was shot on. Like an iPhone. Like a little chef. A quick phone, you can say that. Yeah. But they didn't like that. And I was like, you guys are recognizing the innovation that's happening here. You guys are recognizing like how this is like a classic that other people will build on. You guys just don't get it. Yeah. Well, you were right. All these years later. Yeah. Extremely justified. I wish I could tell them. I wish I could talk to that group of 15-year-old children and be like, yes, what? I'm from the future.

20:06And y'all are fucking dumb, dumb. Because this is a good movie. So go watch these all that again, losers. Because this is what's good. Yeah. You are reminding me, we just some of us had different stuff that we liked at that age. I was getting into horror movies in my teenage years. Honestly, a little bit earlier, like middle school. And I definitely saw 28 days later before I ever saw she's all that. In fact, when I saw she's all that, I was probably, I don't know if I ever was going to appreciate it. Maybe I would have been like the people you saw 28 days later with and been like, I don't get it. Because when I watched it when I was too old, I was like, I don't get it. Yeah, I think I truly that movie. She's all that. All of the movies in that ilk are actually most of the movies in that ilk. If you're over the age of 25, you simply are not, you don't have the brain chemistry to appreciate it. There are a few that are still good. I just rewatched two things I hate about you.

21:07A classic. And I was like, actually, this has some things that are for me. Even though I am like, these kids are acting dumb. And this chicks crying in front of the class, reading a poem, bro, don't ever do that. Like, no offense. And I'm happy for your love or whatever. But don't ever in your fucking life do that. As for 28 days later, you mentioned the word evil. And that does, this is the perfect segue into 28 years later, the bone temple. So the premise is, as via IMDB, as Spike is inducted into Jimmy Crystal's gang on the mainland, Dr. Kelsen makes a discovery that could alter the world. So this film is directed by the great Nia DeCosta, written by Alex Garland, who also wrote 20 years later and also 28 days later. So I'm curious. Now, when 28 years later came out, a lot of people were talking about the ending of the movie.

22:09Did it land for you? You know, was it insane? So my question is, were you curious about why, at the end of 28 years later, everyone had these blonde wigs on? Did you like, do you know who Jimmy Saddle is? I was unfamiliar with this British person, who's a bad person. I did not know about them. And so I just thought, like, almost like the, do you remember the Powerpuff girls or the Powerpuff girls? I do, I do. I almost just like, oh, some sort of 90s kickass thing. Sure. Let's see what this is. I didn't have any idea that they were going to be the people who were doing these bad things. Yeah. Well, to give you a little bit of context, because I do think it goes back to the idea of evil. Like, you know, I, of course, rewatched 28 days later, before I watched 28 years later, the bone tumble, and then I watched it again after.

23:09And, you know, the more times I watched that movie, the more I think about the evilness of human beings, you know, everything that goes down once they end up checking up with the army base. Yeah. Like evil. So Jimmy Saddle, Wikipedia, was an English media personality in DJ. He was known for being eccentric and for doing charitable work. There were rumors about him being a child predator while he was alive, but nothing came to light until after he died. After he died, police finally investigated a lot of allegations of sexual abuse against him. So to put this into perspective for the movies, 28 days later is set in 2002. So at that point, if, if, if sort of media and, and news stops, they're in, in the public perception, there is no concrete police work that has been done

24:12about Jimmy Saddle, just rumors. So this, I read an article after I saw 28 years later with Danny Boyle and Alex Garland. So Danny Boyle and Alex Garland do, you know, share that, yes, Jimmy Saddle is the inspiration behind Jimmy Crystal. Danny Boyle said, it's all kind, it's all kind of twisting in this partial remembrance, clinging on to things and then recreating them as an image for followers. Alex Garland said, the thing about looking back is how selective memory is. It cherry picks and has and it has amnesia and crucially, it also misremembers. We are living in a time right now, which is absolutely dominated by a misremembered past. Yes. So I do find it really interesting, that I think for, it sounds like, you know, some amount of people went into this 28 days later bone temple, not knowing about this background with a Jimmy Crystal.

25:15Yeah. But it definitely for me, yeah, sort of put things in an interesting perspective about selective memory and also just how, I wanted to have sympathy for Jimmy Crystal, but I got to tell you, it was, I, the only time I had a little bit of sympathy for him in the bone temple is when he talks with Dr. Ian Kelsen, they have a one-on-one together and he at least admits, like, I don't remember my father and, you know, I only met him once. Yeah. How much can you blame on your trauma? You know what I'm saying? Yeah. Like, we all have trauma. And therefore, you are still responsible for what you do with that trauma. I'm not saying it's gonna be easy. I'm not, online a lot of people are mad at me because I'm like, change, should be better. But I didn't say it was gonna be easy. I didn't say it's equally accessible to everyone,

26:16but you are responsible for yourself and your life and what happens. And if you have trauma, that sucks. And you shouldn't have had that, but you do. And you're gonna have to figure out how to live with that and make it better and try not to traumatize everyone around you. That's just like, that's just like this. But this guy's like, hey, I had trauma and you know what? I'm gonna visit it upon everyone in the world and in a scary situation, I'm gonna make it even scarier. So, fuck him. Yeah. When we were watching the movie The Second Time, I definitely was more annoyed by the Jimmy Crystal cult, particularly like when they're in the kitchen terrorizing this tiny group of people that have somehow managed to, you know, gate themselves off from the zombies and their little cottages. And I just thought, wow, being in a cult seems so boring to me because maybe it was a British thing,

27:17but they're all like making these jokes at the table and I was like, what are we laughing at? They're not funny. I didn't think they were funny. That's what one of the chick who ends up going with Spike after we... Kelly, Ellie, she's like, they're not that fun. And she's like, we all have to laugh at this shit. I don't think it's that funny. Yeah, I thought Kelly had a very cool moment of when she goes off on her own. I forgot why, but she's the one that discovers Dr. Calson. And she's like, you know, there's a zombie like coming up on her and she like, you know, slits its throat and then does like a summer salt forward. Yeah. I would like to be that cool in the zombie apocalypse. Agreed. She was definitely badass. And I like that she me questioned the teachings of Jimmy, Tingle or whatever his name is. Jimmy Crystal. From a crystal. I was like, Tingle, Chris. Yeah. I like that she questioned the teachings, but because she just doesn't know a lot,

28:18there's only so much she can question. So she questions, is this the guy that he says he is? But she doesn't question that that guy exists. She just questions like, is he the true? And I'm so interested in hope they get to make a third one so that we can just see her discovering like the much wider world versus what this person taught. Yeah, absolutely. How did you feel about the performance of Jack O'Connell who's definitely having a great, you know, 12 months, two villains in a row Irish vampire in sinners. Yeah. And playing Jimmy Crystal. Yeah, what did you think of his performance? I thought it was pretty good. There's some things that I was like, and these aren't necessarily his decisions, but like when he puts on the little tiara for the murder sprees. Yeah. And I have to think like, okay, yes, if you didn't have context for what those little tiaras are, then it would not be a silly thing to you.

29:20It's like a serious thing to you. But there were just little things like that where I was like, okay, but I thought his performance was pretty good. I'm excited to see what he does given the cachet. He has from this and sinners. Yeah, me too. What do you think about it? Well, I'm guessing he succeeded, because in terms of like being a villain, because I definitely like, you know, sometimes I feel like you can like a villain in a movie. And I would say for me the most likable parts of him were when he would like make little jokes. Like some of his comedic timing was pretty good. Yeah, like talking with Dr. Kelsen and, you know, especially, you know, close to him, his death. He gets mad when Dr. Kelsen sort of goes off script. And I thought that was pretty funny. But so I think he, I think he did good. I will definitely say I don't do well with like straight up torture.

30:22Yeah. And so the only time that I really could not look was when they were skinning these people from the village that was so brutal. Like, yeah, I really, really did not enjoy that. I agree. Yeah. And that kid, poor spike. Yeah. I thought he, you know, in that scene where they like take these villagers hostage, one of them, or there's somebody who doesn't get captured who ends up sort of becoming the catalyst for killing one of the chimneys. And then the other remaining villager kind of sets a barn on fire and spike does have a chance to escape. I've curious what did you think when he goes, you know, and basically follows this pregnant villager

31:22and says, take me with you and she punches them in the stomach and leaves. How did that land for you? That land is because it's like, I just saw your friends torture and kill everyone that I loved. So who the fuck you? As far as I know, you're part of this. I'm not gonna save you, like, yeah, fair. You're like really nice little child eyes or whatever, but I don't know you, I don't know shit about this. I'm sorry, kiddo. Good fucking luck. I'm not. Yeah, valid. I was surprised that he did not try and leave at that point. Like, you know what I mean? I think he couldn't because she locked the door behind. Oh, yeah, that's true. Good point. So he probably, like, I can't time over and follow her in time for this, but I don't know, dude. Yeah, I, I am. I really like one thing. I'm thinking about the beginning and how we see the brutality of the Jimmy's at first.

32:25In the last movie, we just saw them flipping and doing all these things to save this little kid. Yeah, but how we start this movie, cinematography wise has a lot of similarities to 28 days later. And I really, really liked that. And I just wanted to say that before we moved on, but they do a lot of shots where the framing is off and it kind of like pans across to someone and we're not sure what's going on, but there is this sense of unease. I think Neade Acosta did a great job in calling back to the first movie. And I'm really frustrated that not a lot of people are going to go see this and see how much it flies into the first movie. Oh, yeah. And Neade Acosta, I think, had stated, like she was a fan of 28 days later. I did mention this to you off mic, but Nea also directed Hedda, starring Tessa Thompson in 2025, which was a fantastic film.

33:27So I really hope, I mean, I think I'm frustrated by how much does box office factor into your shot at directing more, but I just hope with critical acclaim based on Hedda and on this movie, which truly I thought was so, so good. I really want to see her do more. I would love a third film in this trilogy and I would love to see her director. Me too. I am frustrated that the three most notable things that she has done, people haven't given a fair shake, so they haven't done very well the box office. So she also did the marvels, right? She did and she also did candy man, the remake of candy. I didn't see that I did like. I'm a baby and unless it has like an A24S stamp of approval is from genre things, I'm less likely to see a horror film, but because this has the history in the cache, I'm willing to see it. Hedda was a small movie,

34:27I don't think it was ever gonna be like a blockbuster in this way. It was nominated, I think for some clothing gloves or something, but it's very frustrating that it didn't get wider appeal and this one isn't doing very well and I'm praying that that doesn't mean, okay, we're not gonna get to see other Nea Casa film moving forward because she makes genuinely good in compelling things, but I don't know if it's just people are like, black lady director, not for me. I, God, do I hope that is not the case? I mean, yeah, I'm hopeful there's gonna be more to come, because my hope is that there are going to continue to be other directors like Danny Boyle, who are gonna recognize game, recognize game, and we'll get to a place where she does have her box office hit. Yeah, we just see more and more and more. So we've spent some time on Jimmy, Jimmy Crystal, but I wanna be saltish here and say,

35:31I wanna talk about truly my favorite ongoing plot of this movie relationship. That's Dr. Ian Kelsen, that's Samson. And talk about who's to me the most charismatic person that you can't take your eyes off in this movie. It is Dr. Ian Kelsen, 100%. Oh my gosh, also as an mostly extroverted person, I really appreciated the scenes of him when he's by himself. And to me, I think those scenes are so important to show just how lonely this existence is, and hey, definitely reminded me of spring 2020, for sure. I mean, okay, not on the same level, but also I liked there was a lot of homage to music from I think the 80s, which makes sense with somebody who I think Ray Fienze's early 60s,

36:35might be 61, but yeah, there's a scene where he goes into his little home in the grounds, pops on a record, looks at some old family photos and sits on his bed. And it just really laid the groundwork for me of how exciting it must have been in this time where your quarantine, the world has abandoned your entire country. And I just loved this courtship between Samson and Dr. Kelsen as he gets closer and closer. Do you think he knows that the rest of the world has continued? Like, Spike knows because he met that soldier who showed in a cell phone and stuff like that, but I don't think everyone else knows that. I think, yes, I didn't think about that, but now that you're mentioning it, that would make a lot of sense. Why would you know? I mean, Ian Kelsen probably, in the same way in the first one, we saw a soldier look up and see the chemtrails, we're not chemtrails,

37:38that's not what they're called, but the trails that are made after a plane and saw that and that let him know that there was something happening outside. Probably Ian Kelsen has seen that as he's been around for two years, but I'm laughing. And what he thinks that means or how big he thinks this is, it's unclear. It is unclear. What I remember when they talk about Dr. Kelsen in the first movie, Spike's dad and some other people have very much to smist him as like crazy, but you know what? The more I think about it, the fact that he built a bone temple, it reminds me of collaging a little bit. It's got a lot of time on your hands, right? Well, everyone's already dead. I don't see the harm in making, you know, it reminds me of when I used to collect the little plastic tables on Domino's pizza and build little towers. Yeah, so it's you are, in fact, your own Dr. Ian Kelsen.

38:39Exactly, but I truly, I really with this movie in particular fell in love with his character. I loved, you know, the first shot of seeing him in Samson after he's stuck him with morphine and they're just sitting together. What I do wonder is what moment was there a moment where even before he shot him with the morphine was Samson, was there some part of him that was still human? Yes. You know, coming back, returning. I think there must have been because when he sees, and I don't think it's just the iodine that he's covered in, when he sees him from across the way, he keeps like walking like aggressively and then stopping. And then, yeah, aggressively and then stopping. And he kind of has his pattern. So there's some sort of conditioning that has taken place in his brain, the death, some sort of brain function over time

39:39because he's just pure and like impulse running towards a potential meal. He is saying, okay, impulse, stop my impulse. Wait, there's a reason that I, and he doesn't totally understand it because there's the fog of infection over his brain, but just like, there's something that's making me pause and it keeps making me pause. There's also more things I noticed, second viewing. So later on in the movie, Dr. Kelsen theorizes that there is a psychological component, a mental health component to this rage virus earlier in the movie, when these villagers up top, there's like a pregnant woman and two men. One of them gets kind of left behind, I think, but we do see Samson eat, like ripped his head off and like eat the inside of it. And fine, all together. Crazy.

40:40Before that happens, there is a flesh you see of this man before he kills him where his face is distorted like a zombie. I don't know if you caught that. I didn't catch that until the second time. And it did make me think of sort of Dr. Kelsen's whole idea that maybe there's the psychological component and maybe there's like hallucination happening, which I thought was very interesting. I liked the way. Yes. The way that Neade Costa chose to bring us into Samson's point of view. So when he is, we first see him and he's walking around, it's almost like it's the same technique that Spike Lee uses in Inside Man and in a few other movies with Denzel Washington where they are on a dolly with the camera. And so you're seeing the motion and it's like you're moving with them and not moving with the background. So they're doing that with Samson a few times before.

41:40I think we see him see the face flicker and to indicate that we are in his point of view and his point of view is that there is something wrong with this person and they've got to protect against that. And I found that because we have now, we have never taken the perspective of the infected in the past. And so I really liked the way she was, she, I don't know exactly how she did this, but she did have to sit down and think, okay, how can I, I can't just switch into the perspective, people won't know what's going on. They'll be like, this guy I think is infected maybe or there's something going on with that. So I really appreciated the way that they set that up visually so that we could understand this is what Samson is seeing and this is what Dr. Pelson is theorizing now. I liked that a lot. Yeah, I definitely had not thought of it that way before. I definitely remember feeling in a good way and very like in the moment with Samson and not being able to verbalize why,

42:42but yes, there is this very particular frame where it's quite jarring of it's like you see, his eyes, his face moving in sort of a way that reminds me, yeah, if somebody with a GoPro or maybe or someone with a dolly, yeah. So it's very cool to see as they spend more time together as they spend more time together that maybe progress is being made with Samson. And there comes this moment with Dr. Pelson and Samson where Dr. Pelson is like, can you give me a sign that anything is happening? Like have you learned anything from what we've been doing spending this time together? And I just wanna say this is why it's really fun to go to the movies, especially when there's a lot of people there. When I went to see this movie the first time, it was, I would say, two-thirds of the way full,

43:42that's enough for me. And clearly fans of the franchise in there, but an audible gas from the audience in this moment where Dr. Pelson's like, if you don't give me a sign, I'm gonna just do you a solid and euthanize you from this suffering of the rage virus. And Samson's looking at the moon and he says, moon, the audience gasp. I gasp. And it's like, oh, that was a moment that communicated. There is hope. Yes, hope. Yeah, that was really beautiful. And at some point, Dr. Kelson does get discovered by Jimmy Crystal and the gang. And Jimmy Crystal reminds me also of definitely a scammer. Yeah. I mean, I guess that's what a cult leader is. Yep. Basically, a scammer, but. A digital scammer becomes a cult leader, yes.

44:45Exactly. And what gall to show up and be like, hey, and basically admit I'm a scammer. Yes. And you need to go along with this. I need you to pretend that you're my father, old Nick, aka Satan. Yeah. To my audience of cult members. More, I will kill you. Yeah. And Dr. Kelson, like, I don't remember if we know exactly what kind of doctor he is, but I'm like, psychiatrist vibes. Because he really, to me, it seems like he figures out very quickly that he is not dealing with a, quote, unquote, normal person. Yeah. It was normal in this timeframe, honestly. You know, you've, you've, you've been in the UK quarantined off. And you're one of the last few non zombies in the area. But he clearly knows that his life is in danger. And so he tells Samson, like, listen, I've been working on a

45:45cure. I thought we would have more time together. And he's got a little cocktail of pills. Gives the cocktail of pills to Samson. And this reminded me that a scene happens in this movie where Samson basically goes back to the scene of his, I guess, last time as a human being. Yeah. Which did remind me a lot of 28 days later, which is why I feel like the zombie sort of universe, just, you know, the George Romero universe, just the fact that there are so many zombie movies. The Walking Dead also a great book. If you are into Denise, you know, zombie culture, I highly recommend World War Z the book. Okay. Not the movie. The movie. I have seen it. It's fine. It's fine. It's very different from the book. Okay. The book, to me, illustrates why we can continue to expand

46:48the universe of zombies, because there's so many people on earth. And everyone had a different way that they became a zombie. Or how they found out what was happening, which is like a big part of World War Z. It's like you basically are like learning about how different people found out, including like astronauts. Oh, God. Or in spakes. Like how do they find out about zombie problems? Anyway, so Samson. He sort of starts having flashbacks while he's sitting on this abandoned train. And it's him as a little boy. He's on the train with his parents. And he's looking at a book that appears to be about the moon. And then he, you know, I guess I'm guessing this around this time. He gets bit. A zombie is slowly quickly making his way to bite the conductor who's taking his ticket. And then he says, this was another gaspie moment in the theater. President Samson goes, sorry, I don't have a ticket. Yeah. Just talks like a person.

47:49And this leads us to, I'm curious on your thoughts here. A scene where I feel like we have to come to our own conclusions. He, in the present, gets attacked by a bunch of zombies. In a way that makes me think that these zombies no longer look at him as a zombie anymore. Yes. And he's getting bit like the, these zombies are ripping, you know, his flesh off, not all of it, but some of it. But he still seems to have like superhuman strength. Yes. And he does make it out of this situation. And he does seem to be talking like a human. So do you feel like he is now a human who also, this is how I perceive, I'm curious what you think. I'm perceiving all of this as he is now quote unquote human. But he could get bit and not be turned back into a zombie. But so what do you think? What is it? Of what happened? I feel like the drug cocktail gave him some sort of resistance.

48:52So like he was cured. And the reintroduction of the virus does not turn him again. And he's like the cure is also in him in the same way that like. I actually don't know any disease that works like that. I was like, once you, you can get the cold again. Yeah. But yeah, I kind of think of something where it's not like a vaccine where you're getting a little bit of it. But it is something that cures it so that you cannot get it down the line ever. Maybe, maybe. Right. Right. And so that's great because they can just shoot all the zombies. And then rage is done. Yeah. Now, I will say as a former psych major who grew up with parents that each had different mental illnesses. Yeah. I am always, always looking for the mental health angle. And I guess once the idea was introduced that this could be, you know, related to things happening in the brain and potentially hallucinogens.

49:55Yeah. I guess my, my next thought was like, if they, if this went further and somehow someone else was able to recreate this cocktail drugs. I kind of imagine it would be like having bipolar disorder. Or maybe it's schizophrenic where it's not just one cocktail. It's like, you need to keep taking these drugs. Yeah. Forever. And at some point, I don't know why I'm bringing this up. It's just my idea. Maybe for the third movie that it is treatable, but it's ongoing treatment. Yeah. That, that to me is more believable person. Did you watch true blood? I watched some true blood. But no, I didn't. I didn't know. But you can ruin it. You can do anything. So the end of true blood is that they essentially discovered cure for some of this vampirism where like they figure it out and they understand it.

50:55And there's something about like fairy blood. It's like confusing in that way. But they figure out the cure. And they are like. The person who finds the cure and ultimately takes control of it. Doesn't just give it to everyone. They figure out how to give you like us. Essentially a slow dose that makes you dependent forever. So they can always make money off of the cure. They're like, we're not just going to cure you. We're going to give you this thing that works for a little while, but never works fully. So that you are always going to be coming back to us for more of this. Yeah. And so that's, that's what makes me, when you say that, I'm like, it may be that Dr. Ian Celsen has found the cure. But then someone on the mainland, when they held them, hey, we've got this thing, boom, they shoot them. And then they take that and they get a long term thing so they can continue to make money off of this for a long time. Listen, I think they should explore that possibility in the third one.

51:55How are they going to capitalize and monetize the cure to the rage virus? And also, I think that based on how they set this up, it absolutely has to tie into the birth of a human child from two zombies. Right. Which happens. Which happens. And that baby still exists. So I feel like, and because Spike knows this and Spike knows Dr. Ian Celsen, I feel like Spike telling Killian Murphy's character, who they can't remember his name. Jim. Jim. Well, yeah, Jim. I feel like that has got to play into whatever the ultimate conclusion of this story is. I'm hoping that the zombie baby. Jim. Spike. And Samson all have a role to play in creating a safer world that is mostly zombie free and that can interact with people from the actual 21st century that exists in every other country.

53:00I would love that. It definitely came. It was interesting listening or watching 28 days later, knowing that Danny Boyle specifically said he is not including 28 weeks later, which by the way, I like that movie. But it is not part of the Danny Boyle 28 days later universe. So in 28 days later, we learn. All we know, to me, I interpreted it as, oh, the whole world is fucked because Naomi Harris whose character is named Selena. Yes, sort of gives a Jim the update like, hey, last we heard, there's no more news. And the last we heard there were reports in like New York. And one other place. But what we learn in, yeah, in 28 years later is they manage to get rid of it everywhere except the UK and everyone's quarantined off. So that to me actually makes it a lot more insane to think of it in that context that somewhere out there, the real, the rest of the world continues.

54:08So in the towards the end of this movie, we get an amazing scene of Dr. Kelsen pretending to be Satan singing Iron Maiden to Jimmy and the rest of the Jimmy's truly have never been more attracted to refines. I'm like, do I need to go back and watch Maiden Manhattan because he didn't do it for me in that movie. Wow. But I do think maybe perhaps it's because I, you know, I'm getting with every year getting older and definitely find myself more attracted to men that are older than me. That makes sense. Yeah. I found him to be, yeah, quite attractive in this movie. I find it interesting that you him playing the devil. We were like, yes, please versus him at the beginning when he's covered in red dye or whatever. But he's like this is hell dancing around with Samson when they're high and his little bunker when you butt naked.

55:12I was like, I want to be clear. I'm talking Dr. Kelsen throughout. Okay. And I am so glad because I was feeling a little bit scared to bring it up. But yes, I also went, okay, when he was completely naked, I was like, he's looking good. I think he's either, I don't think he's, he might be 65 70. But I was like, well, then I'm going to be attracted to men for the next 30 years. That's right. Let's, let's confirm his age. He's 63. Oh, 63. Okay. Sorry for, sorry. And I hope that you hear this and then look me up and are like, ma'am, I'm mad at you. I'm so mad at you that we have to discuss this over dinner. And I'll be like, oh, no. Yes, please. Sorry for making you older. But I have come for a long time. Oh, it is very nice to me that, okay.

56:12So you're fucking six year old is on the table. Great. Well, it's nice to know, you know, you can just age like a fine wine. Yes. In his case, he has. Yes, yes. I don't think. Oh, did you see the constant gardener? I have not. Should I? Yeah. This is one of my favorite movies in college, I think. It's based on a John McCurray novel. And I cannot remember the director, but it's someone who I like. It also has Rachel Vicenet. Oh, yeah. But it didn't know that. It's them like loving each other in a certain way. And I'm like, oh, this, I had a poster of this movie in my college dorm. Wow. Yes. I'd like to find for a long time. Also, I had a good relationship with the movie theater in my college town. So I got posters for that. I got posters for like a very long engagement with the chick who was in Omelie in that movie.

57:13I have big movie posters. Yes. Oh, my goodness. I wish I had known you in college. Those are some great posters. I was a weirdo. I'm hope like sometimes people say that to me. They're like, oh, it would have been nice to know you when you were. But I was like such a weirdo. And I was so socially isolated. And I did. I've always loved movies. And I loved movies in college. But I was a big socially isolated weirdo who would have not had the courage to talk to you. So yeah. This is the other good thing I think about getting older because I definitely can relate to that. And I can tell you right now, everything was fear based. You know, who I talked to. What came out of my mouth. And that shit just doesn't matter anymore. And it's all about. What do you like? You got to cut. I wish I wish I could have had that mentality then. Yes. I'm sure I would have been way more fun to be around. And I would have had more friends. Because I would have been like, I'm going to go talk to that person.

58:14Yes. You know, you learn. One more. Two more things I want to talk about. Because I would love to talk about more things we want to see in the third movie. I hope there's a third movie. But I do want to. And we've been talking about the same thing. And I think we'll talk about this later. I mentioned another Gasp worthy moment in the movie, which I. Ooh, I was so excited. We see the return of Jim. Kill you and Murphy from 28 days later. shot of three rocks with, like, initials on them. I couldn't see the initials, but at that moment, I went straight to in my head. Selena Jim Kid, then we see a little girl who could definitely be Selena's daughter.

59:14And I think I already knew at that point, but it was exciting the first time I was in the theater to see when other people would figure it out. Well, that was when Jim is on screen, bringing in a little cup of coffee. And yeah, we were all so psyched. He's looking amazing. Oh my gosh. I love him so much. I've had a question forever. And I love the videos of him in interviews, where he's just kind of rolling his lies. Like, this is annoying to me. And I'm like, my mom, and he was so thin in Oppenheimer. And I was a little bit worried about him honestly, but now he was like a healthy adult human man. And I'm like, oh my gosh. The crush is a turd. Like, Tiki Blinders, it was here. Yeah, I just, I love him so much. I, it was so great to see him on our screens. Hair looking great, because he also, his hair is, he doesn't really get to have hair in the first movie. It looks all butchered because, you know,

1:00:14he was like in a coma and then I think he shaves it off or they force him to shave it off on the army base. So it was so lovely to see him with this shiny coat of hair. Right here. And then another great moment that only people who have seen the original really felt was we get another sort of throwback to the first movie in one of the last shots of the movie. We see our characters from earlier on, Spike and Kelly, who are running from zombies. We see Jim and his daughter see that these two people are in trouble. You know, it reminded me so much of one of the, you know, the beautiful ending of 28 days later, where this, there's this beautiful music and they make a help sign to try and get somebody to rescue them, which I guess never happens. Never happened. But they seem so happy. Like, just to like be together and feel hopeful, so beautiful, so beautiful. And so in this moment, his daughter goes,

1:01:17are we gonna help them? And he goes, of course, we're going to help, but I can't do the accent. Of course, and then you hear the music that 28 days later, music starting to play. I was, yeah, there were, I had people on either side of me, like pumping their fist and I sat through the credits just to hear the credits, the music, but yeah, how'd that ending land for you? It landed so well in them talking about how the issues of, I think, the Weimar Republic set up some of the Cold War issues in World War II and all that. And I love that shit. And I love, in fact, it doesn't need to be a whole movie, but I would love a short, just of like, and we don't know what happened to Selena, but just father and daughter, like doing stuff and learning skills and like making Brett fist and like knitting sweaters. And I'm just like, they're so cute.

1:02:19I hope it lasts. I know that they don't die, please. I want them to be together and not die, which by the way, the most heart-wrenching part of, which is why I'm like, oh God, please don't do this to me in the, if there's a third one, in the first movie, that to me is the, the saddest scene in the movie when we have a Gleason, not Dom Gleason, but his dad, yes, he is with his daughter and he gets infected by zombie blood and then he's like, you know, stay away from me. Oh my God, that was heartbreaking, especially given what Selena said about the two of them, upon a serving them, which was like, they don't have a care in the world because he has his daughter and she has her dad. Oh my God, yeah. I want them to live so badly in the third one and in my fantasies, I don't think that's gonna happen. I don't think Selena made it or maybe she comes back,

1:03:20she's not coming back, she pops around around the corner. Oh, there you are, babe. Yeah. Oh my God. Or she's like, she went and escaped and she's like on an airy helicopter. Like, yeah, that's like Rambo style. There was like a helicopter from France or Scandinavia or whatever. You got a gun and she's like, we're getting it out of here. You thought I was for cool, you? That was my British accent. And by the way, Naomi Harris is looking incredible. I saw her in a movie, a Steven Soderbergh movie that came out, I think last year called Black Bag. Yes. And she is in it and she was great. Yeah, I really want to, I would also take the short film of them, just, you know, how they built this life for themselves. Upon second viewing, I was like, they got a nice little situation. He's wearing clothes. She's wearing clothes. He's, they're having jam with toast. They've got chicken. I'm sure they're making their own jam. Yes. They figured out shampoo perhaps because, you know, they both watch.

1:04:20She is, she is biracial. And she is biracial. Turtles are nice. Like, yeah. She was without products of any time. That would be a crazy like jiggered fro situation. But no, her curls are nice and healthy looking. Yes, she, they figured it out. I really want to keep them intact in the third one. Here, this, this isn't going to happen. But, you know what I'd love to see? Samson, back in the world, as a, you know, recovering, like human, maybe dating. Yeah. Which, would you date a recovered zombie or recovered human? Maybe. Give me infection, like if we hook up in the, oh, damn. To be the new STD where like, I wonder, then I have to treat it constantly. Yeah. Yeah. I guess it, I guess it depends. Yeah, if they're, okay, would you be into it? If you did not become a zombie through, you know, anything,

1:05:25any contact with it with, with, with Samson. I'd talk, I'd want to see what his thoughts were. Like, yeah, you know what? Is he good at talking? Does he have life experience that we can communicate? Are we both physically, I mean, I already know I'm physically attracted to him. Oh, yeah. So like, is there a mutual attraction where we're like, we feel comfort together, then yes. The actor to play Samson is a very handsome English actor name. Try Lewis Perry. He is a actor, a stunt performer, professional, mixed martial artist, and kickboxer, former basketball player. His interviews on the, on the production, or on the, uh, promo journey with Ray Fines are so fun. I have definitely tried. I will. I will. They definitely clearly became like pals. Yeah. Very, very cute energy between the two of them, but yeah, he's so good looking, but you bring up a really good point, which is, you're going to date this person, yeah, he's hot.

1:06:25But I hope he doesn't use his trauma as an excuse to take it out on who he's dating. Yeah, but now the more I think about it, you bring up some good points. Yeah. I, I hope that he, you know, some of these medications also just help him generally in his mental health journey, but yeah, that he's not like waking up, punching and screaming all the time. I don't want that. No, thank you. That's right. But if he's like, I need you to hold me, baby, I'll hold you, hold you tight. Oh, you want, I'll make you some regular, regular food. That's right. There won't even be a hint of blood. In fact, we're vegetarians now. He was eating some berries. Yes. Then when he was like first, like coming back to himself, he was feeling the water as he waited through the thing and he picked a berry, and you could see him feel it with his hand and then put it in his mouth and like experience that that I was like, go ahead, says, and you're going to be okay. I mean, I don't know if that's true, but I hope that it's true that you're going to be okay. I hope it's true.

1:07:26And I think that's actually not come to think of it. It would make perfect sense if you are now going back to human post zombie that you wouldn't want to eat meat. That makes so much sense. Yeah. Like, I'm sorry. I'm eating enough meat. And even the factor reminds me of a bad time in my life. So I'm just going to take a flash, berries, mushrooms, milk maybe. Yeah. Perhaps. Everything we discussed for our hopes for season, season three, the third movie. I really hope we get to wrap up also this baby that was born from two zombies. Exactly. You know, is Spike going to see his dad again? I know. I know. Yeah. He's very hot. I think he's supposed to be playing kind of a piece of shit in this movie. He is. Not so great guy, but I am, I wouldn't mind seeing him again is what I would do.

1:08:26I would too. I mean, you know, I would like to think that though, yes, did he cheat on his terminal wife? He absolutely did. Not great. I don't necessarily think that means he can't still be a good dad. Yeah. Perhaps we'll learn some lessons of like, hey, maybe I shouldn't, you know, publicly perform oral sex in an alleyway where my son could easily catch me, but also him, like lying about what Spike did on their little raid, him being like, you've got to do this to be a man. Yeah. I'm hoping that in addition to not publicly cheating on his ill wife, they also rethink what it is to be a useful man in this post to zombie Britain. 100%. Yeah. Well, I think on that note, any, I feel like we've covered a lot, but it sounds like we both want this next movie very much.

1:09:27My one final thought is, yes, said show, and you were like, oh, you corrected yourself into movie. I would love if this was a six part series, because I think that it is like, even if you're sex chronologically further apart, but I would genuinely love to see like an episode where they help Spike and Kelly and figure that out where they determine based on Dr. Kelsen's notes, where they have to hunt those down, where they have to go get this baby, where they do all this stuff, where they synthesize solution, and then maybe 28 years after that, where it is, zombies have been reintroduced. There is this consistent thing. They are trying to rebuild as a society. And there are some elements of East Germany after reunification, where East Germany rejoins Germany, and it's significantly poor, and there's just like a different vibe there. But it continues on in it, develops who these people are in a way that's really interesting. So I would like to see that.

1:10:28Well, I think that is a, I'd watch it, and it sounds like future writer showrunner on this show, Kenny Smogli. I'm putting me on it. They be. Danny, are you listening, Nia? Are you listening? I'm sure you are. I think that is a great idea. And who knows? I mean, it seems like people don't want to pay for a theatrical release. If there is a way to, if we can't get our theatrical release, can we get a show? I, budgets are so fascinating to me. I'm like, is it possible? Maybe there's a way that a six part, you know, many series could cost less than a theatrical release for one movie? I hope so. I'll take it. I'll take it. Thank you. Let's help. Okay. Well, Kay, thank you so much for joining today. Anything you'd like to plug? Absolutely. Please do want people to find you. So I think you should find me at Kenny Smogli on Instagram.

1:11:29I'm on the other services, but I don't really use them like that because of fascism. One thing that we have talked quite a bit about that is important to me is the hot guy draft. So I had been doing it as a birthday party game for 10 years. This past November, I did it for the first time as a live comedy show and I had a blast and I'm doing another one, this spring, where comedians will be on stage and they will draft teams of hot guys, which can be any gender or it can be even a cartoon character, a concept, whatever. And you make teams and the audience gets to vote on who is the winner. There's a survey you can take where you rank the hot guys this time or specifically looking at the daddy trope. And so you can rank people on a scale of not daddy to very daddy and you can come to the show on March 22nd at Littlefield to see who is crowned the winning team of daddies. This is a thing that is endlessly debatable to me and I can't wait for you to be hard

1:12:31of it. Love that. And I have done this survey. I've filled it out twice. I think I did it a previous year and then I did it this year. And I don't know how to explain it, but it is so fun. It is so fun. And also, you know, I think, well, especially with daddies, I want to save this for a hot guy draft. But just, you know, it's an exciting time for me as I continue being attracted to older people. Yes. No time like the present for daddies. Yes. Thank you. Well, can you thank you again for joining listeners, thanks for listening. See you next time. And as I always say, there's a monster for every mood. Dr. Horror is hosted and produced by me, Anita Flores. Cassie Jerkins created the theme song. This episode was edited by Aaron Levine. If you like this podcast, make sure to rate and review Dr. Horror and follow us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.

1:13:35Is there a guest, mood or movie Dr. Horror should cover? Email me your ideas at Dr. HorrorPod at gmail.com. This episode is brought to you by Athletic Brewing Company, no matter how you do game day. On the couch, in the crowd, or manning the snack table, Athletic Brewing fits right in. With a full lineup of non-alcoholic beer styles, you can enjoy bold flavors all game long. No hangovers, no buzz, no subbing out for water in the second half. Stuck the fridge for tip off with a variety of non-alcoholic craft styles available at your local grocery store or online at AthleticBrewing.com. Near beer, fit for all times.