#198 - Tom Cosm: Orchid, Music Tech & Workflow

0:00Yeah, man, I've been wanting to have you on the podcast for a long time. Unfortunately, you live very, very far away. So it would be a lot harder to get you in person. But yeah, I definitely have admired your work for a long time. When did you get able to certify it? You were the one of the first, weren't you, back in the day? Yeah, I think I couldn't tell you a day. It was the first. It was the first, because I remember I was on the panel that did the first certification, sort of as a, I would say an honorary guest to sort of keep an eye on the technicality of the people who were currently being certified as sort of somebody who knew everything and that. That was sort of my honorary way of getting certified myself

1:04was to help with the first certification. And it was in Australia or in Australia anyway, they might have done a couple in Germany or Europe, I imagine. But yeah, it was the very, very first from the beginning. That's for sure. The OG of certified trainers. OG, I've still got, I should have prepared it. I ran looking through all my t-shirts. I've got all my old Ableton merch, which I've got tucked away. I've got live, I don't know, seven merch and like special edition. But I've got my old certification, which has still got all the old logo on it and stuff. I kind of remember it might be live, seven. And every year they send a sticker to me to stick on it. It's like, maybe you should send me another certificate with the new logo and stuff on it. But I mean, it's, yeah, I'm not much one to hang things on my wall anyway. But yeah, it's a good relic. Yeah, that's great. Yeah, it's an artifact at this point, ancient. Yeah, I definitely have a couple like really old Ableton t-shirts

2:06and merchandise that has been through the washer and dryer too many times. And now it just like isn't even wearable. But I still keep it for like sentimental purposes. I still keep it around. I have this thing where I'll get merch from companies or artists, you know, friends who are emerging and oh, we're aware because I love wearing merch stuff. I don't know why, just like, but then it'll be 10 years old. I'm like, oh, this is actually really important now. And I've worn it really, you know, like this person has become like a pop star. And I'm like, I got this like OG one of 20 fronts that I've just worn to the point and I've got bleach on it or something. I don't know. And I said, it's good. So now when I get, now when I get merch, I like hold it away and I tuck it into a little drawer. Yeah, not that I'll ever sell it or anything. It's just, I want to, I want to keep it for staying. Yeah, next couple of years, you might have to upgrade more closet space just to keep all of the merch. But yeah, I guess, you know, I found your,

3:07I think it was like the mega sets from back in the day. This one the first times I really started following you. And you have probably one of the most insane Ableton templates for live performances that I've seen. You also obviously, a lot of people are aware with Orkid now. It's really popped off as like a really cool instrument. You are a technical director at Telepathic Instruments and co-founded that. And you know, you've worked with building the Orkid with Tayman Paula, also a big fan. You've been making YouTube tutorials on Ableton live for, I don't know how many years. But yeah, we could keep going. There's a lot of deep history and things we could talk about today. This was just showing my age, I guess, as well. But that's fine. Yeah, no, you're as young as you want to be. That's how I feel. Not as old as you feel. There's two different things. Yeah, I guess I want to be not as old as I feel. All right. Yeah, that's fair. I couldn't, I couldn't fuck with that.

4:08Let's go. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I haven't seen a lot of new music been released by you, but I followed a lot of your older tunes. And I'm sure you've just been grinding, working hard with like the whole telepathic instruments and shifting a lot of your attention to maybe more teaching and more of the company lately. Is that true? Yeah, you're spot on, yeah. I mean, it's just telepathic all the way and it has been for probably the whole time the last three years, but we'd be working on this family six now. And it's been an interesting kind of internal battle because I haven't lost the passion or the drive to write music, perform music, create content, teach people. I just, I need to, you know, it used to be all I did. So, you know, I could get up in the morning, have a coffee and just start writing music or start working on some weird experiment knowing that there wasn't an ending point.

5:11Yeah, I could just keep going if I needed to, you know, I could get into the flow state of, as they say. And, yeah, just kind of telepathic is kind of the first real systematic needs to be done with precision, type thing that I've worked for in that sort of, I don't want to say it took away because I'm thoroughly enjoying what I'm doing with this chapter of my life. It's, I wouldn't change anything, but it kind of removed the ability for me to just kind of spend, you know, a whole day just continuously writing music. And with that, with that sort of restriction, it impacted my creativity a little bit. So, it's been all stored up. I've got notebooks full of ideas. You know, I will open up, you know, able to live and do some sound design or something now in the end is a bit of a, a bit of a, a bit of a outlet, but it's, it's, well, we get it from sort of start up to, you know, establish

6:11and everything's running super smoothly, which, which it pretty much is at the moment term. Yeah, I mean, it thinks it's starting to open up. Like, I've got my first gig tonight in a long time, my first live set, which will be sort of one of my old live sets sort of reworked a little bit, because I, you know, I'm easing myself back into it slowly. Yeah, it's quite an exciting day to be able to. Yeah, well, congrats, man. Glad to, glad you're back at it. Yeah. I, yeah. Yeah, I also shout out. I saw that Time Magazine did a feature on the orchid and called it one of the best musical inventions of the year or something like that. Yeah. Which is really, that's huge. Did you expect, like, orchid or your works with telepathic instruments to kind of blow up so quickly? Or was that a surprise? Given and I, in everybody,

7:11all of the founders knew something we were on to something. I think, given and I, when we were initially discussing it, just, you know, way back to the day, we, we, there was definitely something there, you know, especially our minds combined, you know, I'm sort of the, the opener and he's a, he's the cool musician with, with all the great, creative ideas. But to get to Time Magazine, I nobody expected that. And I can say that it was quite, quite a lot of honesty because it also, it also came out the day we went on sale, which is just a beautiful coincidence. But yeah, nobody, nobody orchestrated that. We didn't send them. Well, yeah, they did ask for one, but we didn't know if it was going to make a cut. They were saying, you know, we're thinking about it and there was kind of stuff. So, yeah, I sort of from processed that yet. I really have put that. I, I've, I've celebrated. My housemate's got these some zero percent champion because I don't trick alcohol. But, you know, we were, you know, I went,

8:12yeah, I did the thing and that's great. But I've still got the Time Magazine sitting here next to me and I'm just, I'm looking at it going, how do I, how do I process that? You know, because it's such a, you know, yeah, how do I celebrate this? Like, I really want to, but my, it's not something my brain is prepared for. Yeah, but looking forward to figuring it out. I'll talk to my psychologist. I think she'll help. Yeah, maybe she could help it. Yeah, I mean, that's, that's definitely a milestone. Something to frame, maybe put on the wall. But yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it is, it is a, it is pretty exciting when you are working so hard on something and then it gets like this massive recognition that comes out of left field, maybe. And hopefully is a good motivator for you to continue down that path and keep creating new instruments and investing more into the telepathic side of things. Totally. I think a lot of, a lot of, well, as you probably know, a lot of my work that I've done over the last,

9:14I don't know, 15 years has been very instant and directional towards the public, you know. So like my music was free. I'm a content and I just, I upload videos of me making stuff and making mistakes and then all this kind of stuff. So I'm used to like having people say, you know, positive or negative things to me straight away, to me directly and having that sort of instant feedback has always been how I operated. So to sort of like have something come out of nowhere like that, I think that's a little bit why I, it's, I'm a little bit stunned. I'm not, yeah, I'm definitely taking it very seriously and I appreciate it greatly, but yeah, it's a new world that I'm in at the moment. Well, now that you're getting back into the live stuff, I saw on your Instagram, you did kind of like a sound bath thing recently. I think you called it mind garbys. Yeah, you're gonna row with that. Great. I love it. I love that. Yeah, what would you do for that? I'm curious.

10:16So that was a collaboration between myself and a, a neuroscientist or a sleep, sleep scientist, specifically Chloe, who is over from Freemantel, who does this amazing Mandela art. And every summer season in New Zealand, I like to do some silly kind of artistic experimental project. And I've always been into kind of brainwave stuff and, you know, taking, taking the data from the brain, all the body, the heart rate, breathing, what do you be like, and sort of converting it into music and playing back to the person and sort of trying to create a bit of a feedback loop of self-generative stuff. And we thought we'd take it a step further and always find more, but, you know, academically trained in regards to kind of brainwaves and the analysis and stuff. Her job is literally monitoring people's brainwaves while they sleep. So we sort of teamed up and wrapped it up a bit. And yeah, we put someone in a chair, we strapped them into a sort of a haptic-based suit.

11:18So that they had like, you know, big, vibrational energy going on in their body. And I did a DJ set from behind them while their biometric data would be sent to a computer that was doing sort of animations that were real time-affected by their brain state, which was fed into VR and a festival. So it was quite a lot. And I mean, it worked really well. Some of it was noisy, some of it broke, you know. It was sort of about the absurdity of it all, that's sort of one of the more performative elements rather than everything working perfectly. And I mean, we just had a lot of fun. We got through about 30 people before all of our batteries and stuff ran out and everybody was just really, really stoked on it. And it's something we plan on doing more. Yeah, it's so much fun and it's that kind of stuff that fills my cup, you know. Yeah, I've been reading and hearing a little bit more about like different ways that people are capturing brainwaves

12:19and how that could be involved with music production. It's called like EEG headset or something that's like popular. Is that what you guys are using? Something like that. It just like reads brainwaves and convert it into like MIDI signals. Yeah, I mean, there's different ways you can do it. So the most sort of, let's say, consumer-based, EEG headset, which are usually used for sort of meditation or, you know, like kind of fun and toys. Like there's sort of like a spectrum of there's the toy ones and then there's the medical research ones and the medical research ones are kind of $10,000, $20,000 plus. So, you know, I kind of tried to go for the top end of the toy one. You can get one for, you know, a couple of hundred US dollars, which has enough accuracy for being really interesting and fun to use with art and that it's not going to give you a complete overview of someone's psyche, you know,

13:20but that's going to be able to tell you if they're relaxed or if they're like thinking really hard about something or, you know, maybe if they've got shocked or a little bit scared or you know, things like that. So you can get some really basic emotions if you tune it right and from that, you basically get a rolling line. It's usually a percentage or out of a hundred and just sort of doing some simple mess to convert that to zero to 127. If you want to control, have it as a mini controller, which is usually what I do in this in the circumstance. So the resolution is usually just zero to 127 just because I'm used to midi and, you know, to attach this, this brain wave to a cutoff filter and this one to, I don't know, the wave position on a wave table synth and a way you go, you know, and it's just all about finding finding those links that work. Yeah. So you're just mapping those like EEG signals to like macros or something to be affected zero to 127 and able to. Pretty much, pretty much.

14:20Yeah, and in this particular circumstance, we also had them doing, you know, changing aspects of the visuals. So they're sort of expand shapes within this modeller or let's start spinning up if the person got excited or let's start slowing down and zooming in if they got relaxed. So people could kind of sit there with this BI headset on and let mess around with like, oh, what happens if I just try and chill for a sec and then suddenly let's whole scope with zoom in on them, you know, and they're kind of like, oh, I think if I sort of meditate, everything gets calm and if I think about kind of, you know, quadratic equations, then everything goes completely haywire, you know, so it's kind of kind of letting people have their own little bit of fun with some tech. Yeah. That's so cool. Yeah, I think there's like definitely going to be some insane future applications for that, is that technology keeps this expanding. I know there's like two, like, I don't know how they work, how well they work, but I've seen them. It's like, I think, endal and muse. It's like, the muse is like, they change based off of like your mental state.

15:21So like, if you have a really calm mind, it'll play like peaceful music or if you're like more aggressive, it'll play more like rock music or something. I think muse is the one that I currently currently use. I was very kindly gifted, gifted one, and it's sort of taken over just because it's a lot, it's very easy to wear, like, yeah, you can just pop it on over your forehead. It also takes your heart rate from the sensors as well, and it's wireless, and it's just, it's very, very comfortable. So I've kind of used that. The other one is that I recommend, if anyone's listening wants to do it, is check out Nine-Year-A-Sky on Mind Wave. They have a good one, and they've even developed if you're particularly inclined with electrical engineering and stuff, they've developed sort of this particular chip, called the T-Gam. So if you want to actually just get the T-Gam and connect it to like a Raspberry Pi or an ESP32 or some other microcontroller and sort of build your own setup with your own electrodes,

16:21there's a really good rubber hole for kind of amateur hobbyists still electrical engineering people there. Yeah, it's quite easy to get your own setup happen, whether you just want to pay for it and get something in a little box. They're also very supported as well. You can go to GitHub and download kind of repositories that just let you stream the data into Python or there's even a Max with the Neurosky stuff. There's even Max or Max in his P-patchers out there that will send the data over OSC directly to able to live. So you know, you could be up and running in 20 minutes if you got one of these Neurosky ones. That's so wild. What do you think like the future application is for music creators with like the whole neuro, brain wave, generative stuff? Like where could you see that going? Because that's that's going to be an interesting thing and 20 years from now it could be crazy. 20 years, I mean, are we gonna, are we?

17:21Let's remove AI and how rapidly that evolves from the equation. I would say, yeah, pretty, pretty soon. It's, it all depends, you know, like it gets to a point where, you know, like I was checking myself into all of these machines and sitting there and writing music and then it's just like, what are we doing? You know, like, I just want to, I've got an idea and we're here and I've got a mouse and a keyboard and then I know how to use AI with the live. It's like, let's just get back to it to the basics. I think, I don't think I can really answer that question without going down the AI route. And that's not really a conversation I'm trying to get into but I just, everything changes every week, you know, like I just, that's all I'll say. It's just every week I'm just like, oh, I think I know where the future of music is. Oh, no way. It's pivoted completely to another area, you know, so yeah. So yeah, I mean, the future is now. Yeah, it's going to be interesting to see. And it's interested to hear other principles

18:22depending on it massively. Uh, I mean, my default answer is I'm excited about the possibilities of AI being able to solve a lot of workflow issues to make it like easier entry for all levels of producers to be able to make music. You know, if somebody struggles with music theory using AI to help them learn and tackle that faster or generate ideas that maybe when they get stuck, you know, I think like anything from that to like arrangement, you know, I'm sure you and everybody listening at some point I've been working on a track and you just feel stuck and you're like, I don't know where to go with this. It'd be cool to have some kind of AI that like basically builds off of your ideas without writing the music for you but helping restructure arrangements, like giving you ideas. Totally. I'm not into the, like, I'm not just going to like upload something to see now and be like, I made this. Here it is. Like that's, that's dumb. But, you know, if for something that's going to improve my workflow

19:25and, you know, even splice now has variations with their plugins, splice sounds that they just released, which is really cool. Let's just talk about undervalued Tim about that. Yeah, it's generating new ideas from existing samples using AI. I think that's really cool. I'm into that kind of stuff, but I'm not, I don't want anything that's going to take out the creative mindset or pull me out of like the flow state. I'm not trying to deal with AI that's going to, you know, do anything for me or hinder my creativity or try to like replace me in any way. I'm more excited like workflow enhancements and I think that's what a lot of producers are going to gravitate towards. I completely agree with you there. Yeah, I mean, I'm just thinking when you, you know, I stack a 16-by-loop until it's the fullest part of the track and then quite often that's what ends up in my, you know, two-finished folder, which there are over a hundred projects. And, you know, if I could just get...

20:26I don't want it to go cool, make me an entire track now from this kind of loop, which is 16 layers deep or 16-track deep. You know, I'd be nice to sort of just, you know, come back and it's like, oh, all right. Here's like, I've moved it to 128 bars and like, here's an intro, here's an outro section. I haven't filled them into you, but like, you know, here's some markers or something. Yeah. Based on my other tracks that you've written or, you know, things like that, you know, I like that kind of stuff. Like, if it learns how you work, you know, I mean, even, again, this is, I'm treading carefully here, you know, even if you're like, you know, you've got to chop down like a four-four-kick drum on a one-bar look. And it's like, you put down a kick one and two, and it's like, oh, I'll just put in three and four, because Tom does that 99% at the time anyway. You know, it's like, yeah, it's all about, I think about this a lot, especially with live performance, because it's kind of, you know, I've got these two things. Maybe I've got a foot, maybe I've got a brainwave thing,

21:27but yeah, you know, this is sort of one of the problems I say is, is, you know, unless you're writing incredibly progressive music, that just keeps evolving and evolving, you're sort of restricted with your two hands. Like, if you want to do like a really sick, live drum fill and drop and build up at the same time, which is completely improvised, and you have not pre-planned anything. I mean, there's not a lot you can do with just two hands. So I think, like, it'll be quite interesting to sort of, I don't know if you've seen the DJ mega-set, but you know, one of the simplest things I've got in there is, is just, it's stuff which I wish that sort of the generic DJ set up had, but it doesn't. And for example, if I want to tack the bass out slowly of one track over 32 bars, I don't want to have my finger on there for 32 bars, you know, I don't want it for two minutes, let me bring it down. So, you know, I can just kind of go, okay, here is the destination I wanted to go.

22:27I've clicked 32 bars and that slowly starts fading. And then I've got like a whole new finger free to go and, you know, do something else and mess with stuff. So I think there's a really interesting avenue there of sort of becoming almost like a band member that is trained of your own production or performance music style. That's always resonated with me quite nicely. But I'm also an introvert and don't tend to, like, perform musical other people that well, I'd like doing things myself for the most part. Yeah, yeah. No, me too. I feel naked if I'm not doing stuff while I'm playing live all the time. It just feels weird to me as a drummer. But yeah, maybe we can talk a little bit about some of your life setup. I mean, a lot of people know you for those mega sets and mega templates and things that you've done in the earlier days. Before we get into that, you said you're starting to play live again. I'm curious, what is your setup look like right now for this show? My setup tonight for this show. So I want to do it purely off the push tree stand alone.

23:29I want to, I'm really trying to get away from screens as much as I can. So I'm not actually going to be using the templates that I put out. I still love them and I still use them a lot, especially when I want to have really experimental sets. But I just, you know, I've got all of my stems from, you know, so many tracks that are already stemmed up. They're already cut into loops. They've already got all their follow-action sorted of how, like, you know, I would want them to play out throughout a set. And I'm just trying to keep it just an 8 by 8 set. Or, well, I've got, I've got 6 stems per track. And people who know my work know that that's what I split into to find. What I find is a manageable amount of stuff to control, you know, base kick percussion, synths, tech, and weird sound effects and things like that. So I've got my six tracks here and then I've got one audio, extra audio track where I'm going to be trying to borrow stuff from other tracks. You know, I might, I might say, hey, how about this percussion loop? I might check it in there and it might work with this track.

24:31And then I've got one MIDI track which is going to have a new element for each track. And I'm keeping it that simple. I mean, I have push three doing all the controlling of the loop triggering. And I'm going to be using the knobs to sort of kind of tweak things. You know, like, on the bass channel, I'm going to have a little bit of EQing and on the percussion track, I might put on, you know, some kind of flanger, or, you know, little delay stuff. And then that MIDI track, I'm going to have one controller. I'll be using a narration. What it will it is? That's a good point. I'll probably use, uh, uh, yeah, I'm not sure. Something with lots of knobs and lots of sliders. And that's going to be dedicated to that single MIDI track. So, you know, I can just sort of have my, okay, that's this track's time. I can play with the loops and arrangement here. And I can mess around and find out over here with like some new sort of kind of improvised thing. And that's, that's, that's what I'm restricting myself to doing. Just because I, that's cool.

25:31Done it for a while. And I'm, um, I mean, if you look at, if you look at the DJ Megaset or the Megaset, they're just, there's so much going on there. Yeah, there's a lot. I'm sort of challenging myself to, to strip it back down to the basics. So I, I guess, yeah, plus I'm a little bit rusty, you know, and I want to, I want to make sure I don't kind of accidentally push a button. And suddenly this machine starts generating loops for me. And I'm like, oh, God, how did I build this? I don't remember, you know, so that's the worst thing. That's the worst case scenario on stage. You're just like, what's happening? Yeah, I also love, I love the subtle flex that you just threw in there. You're like, I don't know which controller I'm going to use tonight for my show, because you just probably have so many just sitting around. And I'm just like, which one am I going to play? It'll be, it'll be the launch control, which I've got behind me here. Oh, okay, nice. You can see, you can see I've already got it ready to go. I think they're going to give me a go. Yeah, what it will be. Yeah, I don't know if I don't know if the launch control will actually be that, because I'm, yeah, yeah, this is a group. There's so solid.

26:32You know, I have two of them that I usually use when I'm going the DJ Amiga set, you know, one for each sort of deck. Yeah, I'm just, I just need eight knobs. And what is it? 24 faders, that's all I need. Sorry, eight faders, 24 knobs, that's this. That's all I need. Yeah, yeah, I mean, it's, yeah, it's, it's fun like playing live and having that level of control without overkilling it. What are, what are some pro tips, speaking of live performance that you would give to other people when building a set, regardless of like the hardware? Maybe we can dive into some able to live things. I think what are some, what are some go-to setup things you think that people should consider building a live set? I mean, I've, I've kept this full of feet from day one and it's, it's after, you know, when I first started getting into the scene, I would see a lot of people playing their live sets out in arrangement view, sometimes there's pre-mix way files and just kind of hit play,

27:36maybe that tweak a few knobs and filters on sense of stuff. And it's almost like, it's, it's, it's make it, make it, make it so that if you do decide to not do anything, it's still going to be a six set, you know, and maybe not doing the pre-mix way files and arrangement view, if you maybe take it a step further and just chop them into 32 bars and bring them into session view, you know, and then have follow actions because it's still going to play all the way through. It's just now, oh, maybe I just want to keep looping this middle, but now you can do that without having to go into arrangement view and set a loop point, you can actually start getting there. It's all about, it's all about making, again, in my own opinion, of course, it's, it's about making it really easy to suddenly go, oh, I might try something slightly different, and if it doesn't work, I'm not going to suddenly clear the dance law or there's going to be silence or I'm going to look back before because most people who get to the stage of life

28:41performance, well, not most, if you've written a track and you're playing in a party, you've had a certain point in your production career where you are not a beginner anymore, right, and suddenly moving from like the studio environment, we've got all these tools to make things sound perfect and you put it out there and people listen to it and go, hey, I like this person's music so much, I'm going to go and see them perform live, the idea of switching into building a live set is sort of going back to square one a bit and I think that really puts a lot of people off. So I think trying to find a way that you can, you can, you can feel safe in experimenting, you know, make it feel like a video game, but if you can, hey there you go, how about that, I try and make it feel like a video game that you can't lose when you first start out, you know, and then, and then if you do want to, if you do want to loop that midsection like three times instead of just let it play through once and, you know, do that, see what happens,

29:43maybe you want to bring in the percussion loop of your last track into your first track, you can do that as you scroll down and that's right there because you're pretty split it up and, you know, and if it doesn't work, the way is going back, trigger the scene, it's back to exactly how you wrote it, you know, I think, I think, I think keeping, keeping, having a safe entry point and not, not scaring yourself away from, from the complexity of, um, someone like me putting out something like the mega set is a bit rude, but I think, like, you know, I take it back, the mega set was set up for that and that's why I use personally and that is set up like it comes with a tutorial on how you can take your, your track you wrote in your studio, split it into stems, drop them up into 32 bars, truck them in there, hit play, if you decide to, you know, wander off for an hour or your set's playing, it's still going to play an awesome set of all your own music, but when you come back, you can kind of pick it up and start doing stuff or so, yeah, that would, I've been assisted by that for a long time and I still believe it,

30:44yeah. Yeah, there was, there was a nice feature in the performance park, um, I don't know if you played with that by EFDO and that came out in 12, um, and there's, there's some aggressive on 12, yeah, yeah. Okay, that's cool. Yeah, I mean, I, there's a lot of new updates and stuff in there, but the performance pack was a new max for live device by EFDO and, um, it had some really cool things in there, like in the variations, uh, device has kind of like a, um, I think it was the variation device, but in there, there's like a default, everything goes back to exactly the settings you had in the entire project. So if you had, if you had this, yeah, if you have like a macro knob at this value and you jump like five scenes and then you're turning on enough stuff, once you hit that button, everything and the project goes back to the default state. Well, that's what you want right at the drop, right? The most important part, if you're working in, you know, dance music, that's sort of high, that's what you want. You don't want, you don't want to start tweaking knobs and

31:46building up along and add every verb and then you're a big riser and all this is all new and if, and then suddenly the drop happens and all of those effects are still there because you don't have eight hands to turn all those knobs down again. So that's, that's fantastic, you know. Yeah, it's like, I think it's called like snapshot or something, but yeah, I can just default your whole sub back to there, which is huge, um, performance pack. Yeah. Is that the same pack? Is it the same pack that at least you build your sort of own sort of layout on the screen of how you want to control things? I think so. That might be in the performer. There's like a something called, well, maybe just like the same thing, but yeah, it has like a performer option to where you can customize and build a bunch of your own macros and routings and it just really kind of expands a lot of capabilities that are not native in live for live performance. Oh, well, I just like something amazing. And this is going to after this interview, my whole day is working on my set tonight.

32:48I'm really going to download that and I'm going to get started. Thank you. That's great. It's really fine. I knew this existed. I just needed a bump. So it's good stuff. Yeah, that's great stuff. It was pretty buggy when it first came out. So I haven't really performed in it because that just like made me nervous, but like that was in beta. That was beta. So I'm sure they worked that out by now. Yeah. And I think, I think, you know, I mean, the old school way of doing it, well, old schools when they introduced variations and kind of racks, you know, and you could sort of, you know, you could trigger something and all your macros would flick back down to the zero point and this sort of how I've done, let's say, improvised build-ups before in the past. It's just, yeah, it's a bad buzz, like getting really hyped about a build-up. Yeah, I'm doing something live. This is fantastic. And then it drops in like the kicks of washout and everything, you know, in my house. That's the best. Yeah, that's a mix for a sad day.

33:49You know, speaking of like, mappings and stuff, like you had this thing, you called like the 107 resolution mapping trick that I thought was really cool. I haven't really tried it. Yeah, it's like mapping zero DB to 107 on a like on the macro for like mapping for like hardware mixing in live instead of 127. I think that was you, wasn't it? Where you would like for an EQ example, if you like start the mapping and it's at 107 instead of 127, if you map it to zero DB, you say like on an EQ gain, then like when you turn it up to 127, the zero DB won't go past like plus six, or so that it's kind of like a natural bell curve of mapping. I was a little worried there because I didn't know what you were talking about for a second, but they never remembered. Yeah, yeah. So like, 107, I believe, is if you're going from zero to 127 of a macro sweep, if you put on

34:55something, let's just say a gain, you know, 107 is zero DB, and if you go beyond that, you start pushing it up into the plus one plus two, up to plus six or whatever. And what I've done in both of my sets and in my life here, and I'll be using it tonight is I have a gain knob for each track. I don't use the volume slider, but the gain knob will go from zero to 127, which will turn it from negative infinity all the way to zero. And then from that point, that device, which is just a utility, stops, it stays at zero, and that extra 108 up to 127 pushes the gain of a limiter with a soft clipper on it. So that just means that if I feel like I'm not getting enough volume boost, it's a little bit of a bad practice as far as like a mastering perspective goes, or like a mixing thing goes. But if I'm playing and like, oh, this isn't, you know, I wrote this for my headphones in like this bass is not popping as much as I thought it would, but I'm already at zero DB. I don't want to actually raise the DB and kind of, you know, mess with the whole mix.

35:56I'll just repress the hell over it, you know, or just push it on the limiter. So it's sort of this, it's sort of this two stage knob where I've got full gain control up until zero, and then after that, I'm messing with my headroom, so I just make. Yeah. I just thought that was like a fine little track that was pretty cool though, I saw. And do you, I saw a couple of other videos where you've done some workflows for like tightening up your drum breaks without like destroying the groove. And you've done some really cool like drum break stuff like with resampling and with like tightening up with warp modes, things like that. Any tips for creating drum breaks for people out there? I think as far as glowing them together, I'm going to, I'm going to shout out something

36:56non-ableton here. I still really like Algonaut Atlas too, not just because the guy who's found other companies is an absolute legend, but just having, you know, if you're, if you're like me, you've got a massive sample collection and that can get really overwhelming and just to be able to find not just like beats that work together well, but actually finding beats that work together, that are also kind of mixed and mastered well to try and like, you know, eradicate or make that process of trying to make them glue together. That would be my second type of use, glue compressors, amazing sort of like reading all those drumbeats together. But yeah, I still use that and I use the sequencer that's in there as well. Like the sequencer is just made for rapidly prototyping drumbeats and grooves. Yeah, so how it brings up a sample map, I know there's a few pieces of software out there that do this, but I find that's the best one where it's just like, oh, here's a cake, here's a snare. The snare isn't quite what I want and then you click on the snare

37:59and it sort of opens up. Here are eight variations on your hard drive that are closest related to this. I believe it uses some sort of AI or smart algorithm. I'm not going to say AI, I'm not sure, but it uses smartness in some form or sense to be like, well, here are the seven most related or eight most related snares to the one that you've picked. And here it is on the map if you want to venture out further and try something else. So that would be the main tip, it's not, it's not something I want to spend a lot of time on. And I think the reason for that is because of the amount of sort of teaching that I've done, there's various traps that I've seen where people get stuff and they quit. And one of them is that transition from studio to live performance. That's a big one. But another one is people finally getting a cool groove and then, but then they'll spend three hours trying to like place their snare and the stereo feel free. You know, they'll just, they'll just, they'll get so into that groove and then by the time, by the time they've got it,

39:02they're so fatigued that if they go over and start running a bass line, suddenly their groove starts and it's not because, I said this quite a few times, it's not because it sucks. It was awesome. And we, it'll be great to the, to anybody who listens to it, probably for the first 20 times, at least, you've just listened to it about a thousand times right now. And, you know, so sort of, I, I tend to tend to try and be as quick as I can when it comes to beats, to lay down a foundation. And then I want to move on to musical elements and then I want to skip, you know, every five minutes, I want to sort of be pivoting to something else just so I don't get that this, this, this three-hour dread of of listening to something to it so stagnant that what is actually a good idea is no longer to you. So, therefore, you throw it in the bin, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I've heard a lot of people talk about Atlas and you just spend some time with it. Yeah, it would be nice to be able to have, it just show you all those, like, similar samples. I know Life 12 now has show similar files.

40:03Or, yeah, show similar files, which is kind of nice too. You can just, like, pull up similar timbre tonality of, like, different samples, which is kind of nice, but I know Atlas is really deep. It can do a lot. I just love the map, you know, you can have it also, it's a network grid, but you open a map and if you've got 10,000 samples on your hard drive, suddenly you've just got 10,000 dots and you can just scroll your mouse wheel across the list. It goes, you know, it rolls in from the down, down there, or I'm just hearing. Yeah, right. You know, this one, you can just go for it. That's where you find one that you like, and then you go, what was that one? You got to find it again and, yeah, you find every sample, right? Two. Just re-sample, like, kind of sound. Yeah, absolutely. And I will also say very quickly, I'm not a big fan of, like, randomization in a complete form, but something that he's done, all the developers have done, where you can just go new kit, and it will just make your brand new drum kit for the loop that you're working on. And also, I'll add on to that. If you go new loop, it'll look at your entire library of, sort of,

41:06midi and platyrol patterns of drumbeats, and it will generate variations of those combined for you. So you can sort of have this randomization feature, sort of what I was saying before. It's sort of great, something totally new, but it's based off what you already have existing in your library, whether you built it yourself or a stuff that you've personally liked. And yeah, it's where I draw the line of like, yeah, randomization is really, really cool and helpful in this instance. Yeah, it's like organized chaos. Are there any features that you wish live had that it doesn't have? I have a running list that I've kept over the episodes that I just, I'm going to keep sharing with Alberto eventually and be like, hey man, let's get these going. I want to hear some of yours, but the only thing this brings to mind, and this is the super nerdy,

42:08come out of me as is the live object model and at the ability to access every single thing in that world from life. And I understand why they don't need to do this. The live object model is the gateway between building that for live devices and able to, but there's various things that they, as far as I know, again, I'm not too sure about 12, but I'm pretty sure that they will stick with this. There's things that they don't allow you access to because if you attach an elephant to it, it's going to just break your computer. Let's say the, you know, when you're when you're trying to assign something in midi mode and you do petroleum and like everything pops up blue and there's a few things that don't pop up blue, you know, and my theory is there's a reason for that. It's because yeah, if you decide to modulate that a million, you know, at 20,000 hertz, that particular parameter, it's going to crash live. There's nothing they can do to kind of like you know, put a safety net there. And even it would be nice to have like a, I know what I'm doing

43:10mode, which maybe you have to really go deep dive in the settings and it'll just allow you to to control every, every single thing within a version of life. Well, I don't know if I'm allowed to share this or not, but I'll share it with you anyway, because I think you'd be stoked for you, for you to know this, but I don't think of Kurt Floscher-Domas. He, uh, he's been doing some really cool development work and is working with some brilliant developers and he created a gooey or an app that you can control the options text file and you're able to. And it just has like a running list of items and things and you can play around with the options manager and he's like constantly adding more so you can like basically hack it from the inside out. Right. So he's sort of discovering more things in the options text that other people don't know about. Yeah. So there's a lot of that it's like, yeah, it's like this, this, this, this, this treasure map that people haven't quite figured out yet, you know, like it's like, I mean, I, I use it, I definitely use it, but I don't

44:11know what all the options are and if there's still, if there's still ones to be discovered, that's, that's exciting. What was he doing? Uh, Floscher-Domas. Because I'm not out yet or. That's his artist. No, he just privately texted me. I'll see if I could send it to you. I don't think you would care, but there's like a bunch of ones. There's a bunch of different ones in here, like disable VST scan on startup. Like there's all these different options that you can play with. Enable ARA, which apparently is a thing that you can enable, but it just hasn't been. There's a lot of stuff in here that apparently can be enabled inside live, but just hasn't been officially supported for some reason. Oh, maybe that answers my, my, my wish, you know, maybe it is there. You just have to really, really find it and the people who really, really find it are probably the ones who know how to use it without depression live. Yeah, and, and I'm sure I'll just keep adding to this list too, but you can just click and enable or disable option,

45:13but in on this little gooey. But yeah, I'll see if, I'm sure you won't mind if I send it to you. I'm sure he'd love for you to play with it. But I don't know if I'm allowed to mention that or not. We might have to cut that out later. That's right. Any other things you wish live had? Features or any workflows? We mentioned ARA support. That would be nice. I would love Amy. I'm going to say live at integration with other humans. In real time, I feel like we're in a place now where, you know, rather than me, clicked all on saving and stemming up things and making sure that tracks are frozen, that people who are going to receive the project file might not have the VSTs. I'd love, I'd love for two people to just be able to be able to open people from live, like you and me, you know, across across the world and just go, I'm sticking up with this user

46:15account and you're sticking up with me. And there's two mice there and we're just working away on a track like together. Yeah, listen to it and sort of having, you know, you need some logistics stuff that you could do kind of the GitHub route and make sure you know, I'm going off on a branch over here and you got off on a branch over here and you know, later let's come back together and let's compare what each other has done and sort of kind of vote on what we're going to keep, what we're going to chuck away. I love that. I feel like my elaborations are still feeling like quite archaic to me. I know Spice tried to keep it a real good go and I don't really know what happened to it but it doesn't seem to exist anymore but you know, passing something to somebody and then you know, you're going to wait a week for them to work on it and pass it back to you and yeah, something might be something might be missing and you know, I feel like I feel like there's what it's 2026, you know, there's like it's time for me to be able to just jam with somebody straightaway. Have you played with muesessions.co? No, it's made for that. Now you can't necessarily

47:20save the same project on both computers at the same time but it does allow for real-time collaboration. I could record audio remotely into live, let's say you're the host, then I could record I could record MIDI or audio into your project and we could call it We could collaborate real-time that way and the audio is pretty solid. It's muesessions.co, muesessions.co. And it's like got different. It's for multiple dolls. It's not just able to live. So yeah, you can use any dolls but it's pretty cool. I've used it like twice. I'm not the best person to go deep into it but I have friends who use it regularly for like lessons and just recording and collaboration. I've got to open in my tabs to go through once we've finished this. Yeah. If you have a stable internet connection, the audio is pretty solid and the real-time collaboration

48:22is not bad. Nice. Yeah, I'm going to try that out with Kevin. We've been wanting to write a technique back together for so long and every time we get together something happens and we end up doing telepathic work. So this might be an opportunity to actually that. That could be really good for that. Any other features off the top of your head? Again, I want to be a little bit careful with what I say because every version since 6 or 7 I've been on top of it out of official videos for Ableton. I've done official Ableton content. Live 12, I just had to tap out because of other things. So I don't actually, I'm worried I'll say something that already exists. No, it's not. I'll probably bow out of that question. No, it's totally cool. That's true. I mean, I've got a pretty decent list of things and it's always one of those things too where it's like everybody has an opinion of what they want but as a developer you have to be really careful of

49:22what's going to break something or like making sure it's a stable update that's actually really worth the time and investment of building it out properly. So there's always that hurdle as well, right? So I do have a couple quick things I want to tap into. So sound design, I mean you're also fairly well known for a lot of fun sound design techniques and hacks. What are some go-to things when you're designing a patch or sound design that you think maybe other people would think is interesting? I'm always a sucker for finding new ways to form links between existing things. So I love when the new sort of synthesis style comes out. I love things like CRM2 and all of the big players with stuff. But where I find the most value is

50:28things like the expression control and able to live or something like that. The envelope followers and being able to chain things up and being able to say like, hey, I'm going to take the output of the amplitude of my synth line and I'm going to connect that to the gain of just playing the synth line and see what happens. It's about just give me a good old subtractive synthesizer or anything synthesizer and figuring out ways that you sort of can build your own, almost like you're in modulation matrix in a way and just adding in lots of interesting things. I think there's a theme here. I like data. I'm a nerd. I like funding different ways to process it. If I can take data from something I'm doing and turn it into something that controls something of the thing that I'm doing and creating a feedback loop, which doesn't get out of control, that's a really big thing for me. That's what I do. That's my happy place. If I sit down and do

51:29sound design, I'm usually just using operator or wave table and I'm just using max for live or I'm using the inbuilt things like envelope followers or LFOs, things like that to try and see what I can do it to squeeze new ideas out of water or it already exists. I think there's some plug-ins out there that do that amazingly. So you're into being one of them, like for sure. Sugarbites are really, really well known for that sort of thing. They release something and at the surface it's like, oh, it's just another drum machine, but then you open it up and you're like, well, they've come up with revolutionary ways to control the parameters in a way that's associated for a drum machine. That's what gets me really excited, but it comes to sound design. What was that you just mentioned in the drum machine? Well, drum computer is one of sugarbites. Thanks, but I think sugarbites factory is still one of my go-to just because the modulation matrix, I mean, it's a modulation matrix, but it also

52:34it lets you modulate one subtractive oscillator pitch with another, another, and you're just basically giving you frequency modulation from just within the modulation matrix or phase modulation, I guess. So it's sort of, it's just, yeah. Just to use the modulation oscillator engines. Oh, this is crazy. Yeah, this thing looks awesome. I like the interface a lot. It's really clean. It's a good, it's a good sense. It really is, yeah, like the factory. It's my go-to for quickly coming up with new sounds. Okay, cool. We'll put that. Yeah. Favorite max-for-life devices off the top of your head that you can think of? If this max-for-life device doesn't exist anymore, because I reckon the person who developed it, I reckon it got smacked, and now it's some commercial product. It was a granular slash reverb

53:35plugin, and you feed anything through it, and it just made the most beautiful drone music. I remember what it was called off the top of my head. Just saying. It was something real simple, it had no GUI or interface whatsoever. It just had the dude's name, and yeah, it's not the best answer to the listeners. It's okay. I just, I still got it on my computer. I don't have live open, I don't want to open it here, but it's fine. Yeah, I've still got it on my computer, because it disappeared from max-for-life.com, like really, really soon after it was released. I was like, this is so good. I would pay a lot of money for this, and just stand to stand. I opened it up. I had no idea how it worked. It was so complicated. I'm a mid-tier max-for-life user, and I remember when I was just like, look, this has to be some mathematical doctor student who made this. It's absolutely nuts. You could cough into it, and you've just written

54:35like an hour-long album of Toronto's, is it? That's a lot of that. Rest in peace. I just said all the stock stuff as well. I can really cloud all the stock, max-for-life, evolution things. The only foes and all that stuff are now part of it, and they're really, really incorporating those more connected, more relating devices into the workflow, trying to make them more standard. Again, that's where I think a lot of the magic happens, is when you figure out a creative way to connect two things. Yeah, absolutely. Cool. Well, I do definitely want to shout out the orchid, and also pistol, which I haven't played with either yet, but I mean, I've seen them online, and people talk about them and stuff. I don't have to get you on it. I would absolutely love that.

55:38Absolutely. Fantastic. I keep seeing videos and stuff, and my music theory is pretty trash. It's not great, but I know how to hack and stuff, and I feel like the orchid would be just such a really fun way, just to generate happy accidents and ideas. Anybody who doesn't know what we're talking about, just look it up, but it's basically just one octave, and you could explain it better than I can. Maybe you should just explain it, but basically it has built-in speakers to it. You could take it anywhere. You don't have to have a computer to run it. You can do a lot with it. That's it. I think a lot of what we think about is just making things easy, making things frictionless, but also really, really powerful, especially to people like yourself. As you said, you're a drummer, yeah, and just being able to put something in your backpack, pull it out. You've got massive battery on it, good sounding speakers. With your left hand, you can pick a chord, major minor,

56:39diminished suspended. You can make them a little bit more complicated. You can add it. Kind of a seventh, you can turn it into a four-part chord, and then just with your right hand, you can play a one-optive keyboard. You can play C or a G, and you can just quickly move between chord progressions, and it doesn't do anything smarter. It doesn't tell you what to do, like you could definitely do a chord progression that sounds bad, but the thing is if you do play a chord that doesn't sound great after the one you played last time, you can just very quickly move your fingers around until you find the right one. I think that's where the power is. We really don't want to spoon-feed people. What they should do based on music theory, or AI, the amount of time it takes to trial and error to find what is right or what you want to hear is drastically reduced. Of course, there's an awesome synth engine in there. It's fully proprietary. We've got performance. We've got LAPG8s. We've got effects. We've got patterns. We've

57:39got drum loops. We've got a whole looping system. Go look it up. If you're interested, it's a powerhouse little machine. It's a jam box, but for chords. Yeah, it has a nice retro, kind of fun cool vibe to it, just the way it looks. It doesn't take up too much desk space either. Some running out of desk space here, but I think it is a fun jam machine. It has a midi loop on it as well, which is cool. We're just going to go live. I'd have to check the calendar to be sure, but probably in two to three weeks. Sweet. We're about to drop a massive update, which has all kinds of loop management, saving, exporting. One thing at the moment is you can kind of loop something, but once you've done that, it's lost in there. If you turn it off and on again, unless you record the midi or the audio output. By the time the seers, there'll be an update where

58:44you can save all of your loops. You can recall them. You can stack them. You can do all that sort of thing. We've put a lot of work into the looping engine recently. We're constantly updating it. That's the thing. We made this to be something that is continuously updated based on how we see people using it and the brilliant ideas that Kline Kiffin comes up with as he plays on it. Yeah. Yeah, it seems like a fun thing. I don't know if you mentioned this, but for my understanding is you can import your own sounds into it. Is that right? Through the software, the pistol? Yeah. So pistol is its companion app. We purposely chose not to have a massive amount of kind of nobs and sliders on the front panel just to keep it simple again. But there is, again, I'm biased, but one of the best synth engines out there, it's our own and pistol is the companion app. So you download pistol, you plug it in this bidirectional communication between

59:48your orchard and the pistol application. It can be a VST. It can be standalone and honestly, you can have full access to every parameter of this synth engine. So you can design your own sounds on a deep level. Or if you don't want to do that, you can just kind of load one of the ones that Kiffin's made and tweak it a little bit. Maybe you're more chorus or you want to change the oscillators to squares instead of sores. You can sort of, you can sort of do it on the base level if you don't know what you're doing with sound design. Or if you're a sound design nerd, you can really get in deep with, again, what I consider to be one of the coolest synth engines out there. Yeah. We've got a subtractive engine. There's a subtractive engine and FM engine and our own analog model technology for sort of moody pianos and electronic pianos and stuff, which yeah, this kind of gives it a really sort of unique flavor in my opinion. Yeah, that's really cool. I can see that being really valuable for live performance. If people had patches, they wanted to customize that they wrote from songs or something and then wanted to play it back on their orchid. And because of the bi-directional, that's a bit of a tag word,

1:00:51I guess, but just because you plug it in and it works, you make a tweak, you unplug the orchid, you put it in your backpack, you get off, you're sitting on a train and the sound you just made at your computer is on the orchid, coming out the speakers. We wanted to, we wanted to make that as seamless as possible and we're constantly working towards making that more and more seamless. We want you to sit down, come up with an idea and it just works and you can get it into what even format you need as quickly as possible. You get your idea into something like Amazon Live or whatever, so you can evolve it into a track or a jam or whatever, yeah. Was it pretty difficult in the development process to like mathematically build the core generators or is it just like more completely random, like how much thought was really put into that? A lot of thought was put into that. Given, given a lot of work there, just, just building sort of racks and able to live of what he wanted and the way that he saw things

1:01:55happening, but when it came down to the actual mess of how we're actually going to do this, like how are we going to change, you know, if somebody plays a C major and they go to a G minor, how are we going to make that transition? We're just going to have C, E, G and then G, B, flat D, or are we going to have a jazz musician play it where they keep their hand in the same position, they just do a different inversion and it's sort of, we sort of really, a lot of work within to try to make it. So as you're changing chords rapidly, it sounds more like a human sort of popping on the piano, like a pianist knowing what they're doing as a sort of a backing track to somebody who's singing or playing a trumpet or whatever, you know, a lot of work went into the maths and I'll say algorithms, algorithms there. It's kind of funny, I feel like the need to specify algorithms these days just because you're going to choose AI, you know what I mean? Like, it's like, this is just good solid mathematical equations going on here. It's not, it's not thinking

1:02:57about it. It's just like, you know, we've got an algorithm going on and that's where a lot of work that kind of, that's when I came in and started helping harness Kevin's vision of what he had in his head, but turning it into nerd. Yeah, that makes sense too. Like, I find a lot of like generative chords and stuff is sometimes just pretty random the way it sequences rather than actually like putting in real thought of like, how could we make this more musical? You know, the expressive chords in life 12 on if you had a chance to play with it, but it is kind of similar in that way. It does a great job of coming up with random chords, but it's not always going to play in the order that makes sense. It's just like kind of a random generative thing. Okay, yeah, we really strongly believe that, you know, if you hit a button and you've got a chord

1:03:58progression, I mean, that's not always the magic, you know, like, it's figuring it out for yourself and then like having that aha moment when you, even if you don't know music theory, but you play one chord and you play another one and it's like, oh, that reminds you of a tune or like, well, that makes me feel something that happened to me in childhood or, you know, like that's important and that produces the right brain chemistry for you to continue on your journey of discovery, which is basically learning and education and disguise, you know, so yeah, we don't want to kind of jeopardize that in any way and force people to force chord progressions on people. So yeah, you still got to figure it out. We've just made it so you don't have to learn all these complex patterns on a keyboard and use end digits of your entire two hands to like do all this mess. You can use two things as if you want. Yeah, yeah, it's fun.

1:04:58Cool. Well, yeah, I have to play with one sometime, but teaching over 20 years, you've been doing a lot. What advice would you give yourself now as a creative producer, artist, musician, performer, knowing what you know now, if you could rewind 20 years ago, like, what advice would you give yourself? Again, watch audio stagnation, watch out for tracks. Like if you have to set a timer, set yourself a timer, tom, set yourself a timer, like every 10 minutes, like, you know, that baseline does sound good, but you're going to listen to it for an hour because you think it needs just a little bit more and then it's going to sound bad and you're going to be like, oh, I just wrote a really bad baseline. What a, what a, what a, what an idiot I am for writing a bad baseline. It's a good baseline. You just listen to it a thousand times, you know, like, so true, you know, keep yourself moving, keep yourself moving all the time, you know, it doesn't work for everybody, but, you know, it's like, especially when you get into production, you know, don't sit down and

1:06:02just work with the kicks and you're not high-hat for six hours. That shouldn't be your introduction to production. So you should be, you should, you should, you know, you're baseline is weird, check down a random beat, check down a free, go to splice, download the top, the number one loop of the genre that you're writing, check it in there, work on a baseline, open up some pads, you know, just keep, keep, keep moving and watch for the stagnation because it's a huge trap and it will put you off. Yeah, that's true. I always tell a lot of my students, there's like kind of this bell curve of flow state that you, you kind of have to learn the technical things to actually just know how to do the muscle memory of it. Like, like, how do I load this device on this track? Like, what's the dry wet control? Like, blah, blah, blah. Like, once you get over that hurdle, then it's just a matter of, like, working smarter and faster and not harder and, and having fun with that, and not that stagnation that can, like, kind of trip you up a lot. I mean, I want to about you, but all my favorite tracks, I usually make in the least amount of time for some reason.

1:07:04It also just tends to work out that way. Like, just flows. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm one of those people that I'll run a track of the day or I'll run a track in three years. There's nothing in between. Right. Nothing in between. Yeah. Me too. That's those are my two options. Yeah. I've tried, I've tried, I've tried, but that's just how it is. And I've accepted that. That's who I am and I'm happy to have. Yeah. No, I completely feel that myself. But yeah, Tom, thanks for hanging out in the podcast, man. Really enjoy talking with you and like, admire a lot of your work over the years. And if you ever come to, if you ever come to Denver, Colorado, in the United States, say hello. Hit me up. Last pretty cool people there. I probably said, but, you know, feel my good friends over there. And it seems to be where we're a lot of cool audience seem to go and hang out. So yeah, it's a it's a thriving community. This whole city is exploded. And I moved here because the music scene is really, really growing a lot.

1:08:04And it's beautiful. We got the mountains. We got a lot of good stuff here. The only thing we don't have is water. There's not a lot of water. There's not many oceans. There's no ocean water. Yeah, just bring your own water. You'll be fine. Yeah. Thanks for having me. I know, I know, I know we've tried a couple of times to sing the saffron days and worked out and that's that's from me. No, it's not good. I'm just, I'm just, I've had a really good time. Good. Yeah, me too. Last but not least, any projects upcoming, you want to shout out that you want to talk about or make people aware of? I think by the time if this goes live in a couple of weeks, I think, you know, we're going to be producing more outputs over the year. I should plug that and say, you know, we're selling out every time we go online, but we do have various, you know, we're trying to produce them as fast as we can and, you know, still keep you around the website. You haven't missed out completely. We will be doing that. Apart from that, I'd like, I'd love to, I'd love,

1:09:09I'm going to, I'm going to state it now. I'm going to finish now by the end of the year. I'm going to, I'm going to state that to you and everybody listening accountability. Good. If you're listening to this on January 1st, 2037, and I haven't been out in the remember, which I doubt you will, but if you do, feel free to find me a message or socially tag me and say, yo, what's up, Tom? I'm saying that now. Good. I don't know what it's going to be, but it'll be something. Yeah, we'll blow you up and annoy you if you don't fulfill that promise. To it. To it. To it. We will. Keep you accountable. But cool, man. Well, thanks for hanging out. Once again, everybody go follow Tom Cosm. Check out his YouTube channel. He's got a lot of good videos from forever. And then, yeah, check out telepathic instruments. And yeah, maybe I'll catch a show sometime if you do play over here. Yeah. Yeah, have a good set tonight, man. I'm sure you'll crush it. Hey, thank you for listening to the podcast. If you didn't hate this episode,

1:10:21please leave a five-star review. It would help me out a lot. Check back on Tuesdays for new episodes. If you want to be the first to get new episodes and new content, some new packs and downloads and things, I'll be sending out also upcoming events. Then join the newsletter. Also, if you want to check out the brand new merch store with some exclusive items, go to Abletonpodcast.com, slash Merch. Check out the links in the show notes for all the info on this. Be sure to follow this guest for spending their time on this episode. Give them some love. Thanks again for listening to the podcast. Much love. I'll see you next time. Later.