#179 - Manosphere

I don't know whether she was successful, but she did try to come to schoolies on the Gold Coast.

Hi, I'm Andy, and I'm Roger, and welcome to the middle, where we try to have thoughtful conversations

about awkward topics on our search to find the middle.

We're going to give you last week's news today, so let's just move and we should put on the t-shirt.

Stop fighting!

I am tonight announcing my candidate to Taylor Swift.

Look, my biggest issue with marriage is that I think that it's fundamentally flawed

in a institution that is built on the oppression of women.

I will not be lectured about sexism and misogyny.

Having truly rational conversations about controversial issues is risky these days.

Andy, Roger, what's up?

Oh, not much, not much.

Hey, hey, hey, I know this porn band thing is, you know, causing problems, but

well, would you like an update?

Oh, there's an update.

So, for those who didn't get to listen to last week's episode, which was labeled

no point for you, for those who remember Swift Nancy, we had the episode kicked off with

an acquaintance of mine in the Veracombs acquaintance to protect their identity.

It was struggling with the fact that he was no longer able to access his favorite adult entertainment

site due to the platform's response to government regulations here in Australia.

So, there is a bit of a porn online porn drought for Australians at the moment,

which is quite, you know, apt, given the fuel crisis.

We're also in a porn crisis, right?

So, it's hard to get your fill in a number of ways.

Anyway, so...

To portray some words there.

Not on purpose at all.

So, a quick update from him.

He was struggling with it because obviously it was part of his daily routine,

his smoke break, as you would call it.

And it was really affecting him.

So, he decided to try to get some other kind of stuff, right?

And he ordered some online movies that were sent to him and dusted out the DVD player.

And he also bought some magazines.

Oh, Jesus Christ.

But you know what he said to me?

He said that actually the sad thing was that the movies and the magazines didn't do it for me.

You know, like, it just, it wasn't the same.

There's something about this story I don't believe, right?

And I'm not saying that this mystery acquaintance is you, Roger.

But...

No, I haven't been ordering anything.

My LED DVDs, no.

I'm a family man.

How would I pull that off?

Can I just establish that the next step from,

okay, porn hub is down.

Isn't, okay, I'm going to go to my online catalog and order the old, like,

Pamela and Tommy Lee, like, sex tape, right?

The next step is, you know,

isn't it, like, maybe I'll try a different website where they haven't quite

caught up to, like, for the controls or maybe it's something like, I don't know,

like, a VPN, like, things like that.

Like, it isn't...

So I do think actually in first step might be a magazine.

Like, that's pretty easy to get.

So I think that that's believable.

And I don't know what sort of...

No, but it's like the instant gratification.

It's like, you can't, right?

It's because he doesn't want to put out his identity online.

So what he's ended up doing that?

Because it wasn't the same.

Was he ended up buying a VPN?

Okay.

Right.

So he's now back in, right?

He's...

But I guess the story completes itself with this acquaintance now fully operating on a VPN

and paying the extra money,

but posing as an American address and getting what he describes as even more

insane content on the same site.

So it's one of those things where it's geoblocked just in the same way

that if you were an Australian Netflix subscriber,

you don't get the good stuff.

Right, well, you don't get the complete stuff.

And actually, logging in as an American to these adult entertainment sites,

you get even...

Well, you get different content, isn't that crazy?

Do you think, like, is it like YouTube where there's like an algorithm

where it, like, picks up your tastes and preferences and gives you more of...

I'd say so.

Like, it must be like that.

So I'm just...

Like, how does a VPN work in that setting?

Do you just get like, oh gee, this is like what Americans are into now?

Well, no, I think it's down as a word.

I think that when you...

In the same way when you log into YouTube,

it gives you what is being watched in your location, right?

Like, what is hot in America?

These are the hottest videos in Australia.

The same thing happens for...

Where if you are?

You know, we've been friends or...

You know, it's that hypothetical.

What would be the different, biggest difference between

like the kind of porn that French people are served up

versus the kind of porn that Americans are served up?

They're all just smoking it.

Do you think that there would be a difference?

I think that there would be quite...

Do you think there's a different like shaved-on-shaved is...

Ooh.

You know, I've got to be really careful about this.

All right, should we just say ourselves and just cut it there?

I don't think anyone cares about the French.

Um, if ending the French.

But what I would say that that's stereotype.

But do you...

Okay, just a word for ourselves.

Just give me a second.

Don't you agree, though?

Even though I thought it was such a stereotype about

French women with hairy armpits,

I must admit that every French person I've ever spoken to

agrees that that's not a problem.

As in, like...

They don't care that women have unshaved armpits.

Well, they go. It's all part of the, uh, you know,

cultural, cultural factors, right?

Well, they go.

Anyway, so it's good to know that the policy decisions

of the Australian government have now resulted in

at my acquaintance being exposed to even more extreme content online.

So, yeah.

Do you think there's like the equivalent of a VPN for

the straight-off homos?

Yeah, well.

I think that, uh, there's been a proposal.

The Saudis will make a canal through their own country, so...

Right, a pipeline.

All right, well, um...

The three P's, uh, porn, petrol, and, uh, toilet paper.

All right, so what are we doing today?

Well, I guess, on the subject of, um,

uh, online content that is, uh, unsavory at best.

A couple of weeks ago, I suppose,

I watched...

I subjected myself to the Louis Throw Manusphere documentary.

And, um, at the time, I don't think you had watched it,

but you have recently watched it.

So, I wouldn't mind, um, yeah, getting a bit of reaction to it.

All right, I'm going to do a bit of verbal diary of different thoughts.

Um, actually, I think I've asked you this question.

I might start with this, right?

So, there's, like, there was a few different, you know,

maybe content creators profiled, right, on this documentary.

And they're not all the same.

They're part of this thing called the Manusphere.

But, like, they, they, they're, they're,

they've got slightly different angles, right?

But there was one guy who, I think he spoke about having $30 million.

He, you know, I, I can't remember what car,

but it was something like a Lamborghini, that kind of thing.

Um, had his, you know, downtown Miami Beach apartment pad.

But then he also had his, like, suburban house,

like, and it was all very, like, high-end,

quite elite sort of real estate.

Um, he was clearly trying to portray a very clear sense of success,

you know, the picturesque sort of wife and family,

um, the, you know, the money, the car, the house, the apartment,

the way he dressed, the way he talked.

Yeah, he even went so far as to say,

he's so well off that he's got a, like, a one-way open marriage.

In other words, his wife is loyal to him, but he's like,

and, and they're all called one-way, but that's like,

one-way, but not me.

Right. So my question to you, and I think I asked you,

this year, the other day, right?

He is, um, now, whether real or portrayed,

he's at least on all those measures that I've just said,

objectively, very successful, right?

Yeah.

But is there a part of you that, like, looks down on him,

where you, you still feel superior to this guy?

Oh, I mean, it goes without saying, doesn't it?

Okay, so the person you're referring to is called Justin Waller, right?

And he's, um, he's like a red pill guy,

and he has close ties with the tape brothers,

or Andrew tape.

And I actually have been exposed to some of his content before,

a long time ago, even before he was introduced as part of,

so he was a known entity to me, right?

And I actually think that Justin Waller does have some Bernafardes

as an entrepreneur before this.

Like, he actually does, he has run a company in steel and construction

and things like that before he, you know,

he turned this next part of his career into an influencer.

Um, but, you know, there are a lot of things

that you just can't get behind when you look at these guys, right?

Even, even the fact, like, I don't know about you,

but I have a lot of trouble taking any man seriously

that looks like they're in skinny jeans.

You know, I just can't do it.

Yeah.

And Justin Waller is like famous for wearing these, like,

skin tight pants, right?

And it's just, it's very off-putting to me,

like looking at a man in, like, skinny jeans or tights, you know,

even if they're buff, right?

But, but do you think there's something?

Because I think this is kind of key to this whole thing, right?

Because, like, I think what jars with this guy, right?

And they're all actually probably the same,

albeit they're all a little bit different.

It is, they're actually fundamentally low status men,

like, deep down, right?

And, like, they are actually low status men.

Okay.

Okay, explain it.

Explain it in just about just a little more, you reckon.

Well, because, and look, I don't want to offend any real estate agents out there,

but like, it's a little bit how real estate agents

dress like they're very successful.

And it's very superficial.

It's like part of the tour of the trade, right?

You drive an expensive car,

and people associate some sort of success, like, with you.

And it can even be that, like, it's funded,

like, it's part of your package, right?

To have, because it's part of the brand of the real estate agent.

But the people who work in those roles aren't necessarily,

like, it doesn't match the hype.

It doesn't match the superficiality of the, of the,

of the shop dressed suit or whatever, right?

And they might be, they actually might be successful,

but in at least one dimension, they're not, right?

Because, let's face it, like, you know,

becoming a real estate agent is something

that you don't need a university education for, right?

Yeah, I get that.

So, doesn't that, doesn't it?

So, you worry that you become,

you take on this persona of a hater,

right? Like, someone like Dustin Waller, right?

Yes, he looks ridiculous on the face of it.

But, like I said, there are some legitimate things, you know,

he formed a company when he was very young.

Yeah, but I guess this is what, what,

where I'm going with this is that, like,

this is someone who can appeal to low status people

because he is himself naturally a low status person.

But, he actually is successful.

So, he is someone who, if you're like, let's say,

a construction worker, you can look at this guy and go,

hey, this guy, like, ran a construction company,

and he's rich and he's got all the things that I want, right?

But can't have.

So, he must be doing something right.

I need to listen to this guy, right?

Like, to, to find this stuff appealing,

you have to, it has to be relatable to you.

And, and the reason I think there's this, like, low status thing going on,

it's probably not even clear what I mean when I say low status person.

But, like, I, I guess what I mean is someone who in terms of the education,

in terms of how they're accepted,

it's a little bit like how Donald Trump is a low status person as well, right?

Well, what you're Donald trying, I think,

is he's not part of the cultural elite?

Correct, yes.

So, it's, like, this guy will never,

would never be accepted as a business person.

So, this guy could be a billionaire,

and he would never be accepted into the club of, like,

he doesn't have the things that higher status,

kind of, culturally would expect someone like that to have, right?

And, and he, there is a vent diagram when there's overlap between this guy

and the trade who's, like, dropped out of school, right?

In terms of, like, the way he comes across and the way, like, the Jim Bro thing,

like, I'm going to go to the gym, yeah.

So, I think that's kind of...

So, you've explained the phenomenon, I suppose,

but what about, is it good or bad?

Because, I don't know whether you could, you know,

you've started, you've picked, just a moment,

which I think is actually, is one of the more legitimate characters

in this documentary.

And I don't know whether that's a bad thing,

to say, because, in some ways,

doesn't he represent the true American dream?

You don't have to be part of the culturally,

you don't have to work your way through the system,

and you can still have a successful, successful life.

So, it's Snake Hole, right?

These people are selling Snake Hole.

Well, this guy is selling Snake Hole.

Now, I've never seen any of his videos.

I don't know what his content is.

I think he, for those who haven't seen the documentary,

this guy, like, professors...

Well, probably pretty sexist sort of perspectives.

He's a very traditional kind of gender-based role.

Like, the woman, the wife, you know,

deals with the kids in the household.

Looks after me as the husband.

I take care of business.

Like, I'm the man of the house.

That kind of thing, right?

And, you know, look, I've got the car.

I've got this. I've got that.

And, by the way, like, I need a little bit on the side as well.

And she's cool with that, you know?

Like, I think all of that is fake.

Like, you can get super lucky,

and be successful, running a business, or some...

You know, like, for every...

There would be 1,000 of these guys

who are very unsuccessful,

who did exactly the same things that he did.

And possess exactly the same characteristics.

Eventually, if you take 1,000 of these deadbeats,

one of them is going to be very successful.

And this just happens to be the one guy, right?

So, there's nothing about his success story,

which is recl...

Like, can be replicated.

Oh, you just need to do these five things,

and you'll be like me, right?

It's...

Yeah.

But like, it's...

Happen stands.

Again, I'm trying to, obviously, play the other side here,

but isn't that, like, saying...

Well, that's why it's called the American Dream,

not the American Standard.

And, you know, you have to be in it to win it, right?

And what he's...

What he's kind of spouting, I suppose,

is, essentially, like, an alpha male lens on life,

actually, that...

Well, you can...

You can tackle the...

...thing to motivate men,

and picking up, you know,

trying to build that business,

trying to get the girl, trying to do, you know?

Let's just say he was almost like a Jordan

Peterson-style kind of message.

Like, hey, clean your room up.

You know, they don't stop winging and complaining about,

like, own your own destiny.

You're on control of your destiny.

You make it happen.

Like, there's part of that story

where I think you can have, like, a more general conversation

about, like, on what basis could you say

that's a negative message, right?

But I don't think that's actually the message

these people are giving.

Like, these people are...

They're, like, salespeople,

and they're trying to sell themselves.

Like, they are the product.

And they're trying to have influence over people now.

And I think they're doing it off the, like, the back.

I mean, there's a reason real estate agents

wear sharp suits.

It's because they want to portray success.

And there's a reason this guy, you know,

high as a Lamborghini for the Louis Ferro episode

because he wants to...

He might actually go to it, but I don't know.

But, you know what I mean?

Like, it's portraying success, right?

And I think that's...

I don't know. I think that's...

There's some way to fake cars, right?

Again, isn't that part of the American DNA?

I can understand why it's dreamy.

No, because...

I don't...

Well, it might be, but it doesn't mean you can't say,

hey, this is all a bit, like, not real, right?

You know, I went into Walmart and I've got myself, like,

you know, this excellent juicy steak, like, prime beef,

you know, ribeye, whatever.

But it turns out it's, like, injected full of, like, water and stuff, right?

Yeah.

It's like, you can say, like, that's not good.

Like, that's not...

You've just been done it, right?

And I think this guy is, like, is that, right?

He is...

He's selling...

Now, he might be successful himself,

but he's not selling a scalable formula for success.

And I think if he was just purely, like, in the game of,

hey, look, my story is going to be different to your story.

There's nothing that you can get from me and my experience

that's going to translate to you.

But all I can tell you is hard work counts and all that, like,

this guy would be not in the man's sphere, right?

He'd be in the motivator game.

But he's selling this.

To be fair, though.

Again, just to be fair to this particular character just more,

if you look at the documentary, he didn't do any of that.

He didn't do any of the selling.

It was just, kind of, almost...

Oh, yeah, it was very...

There was quite a bit of selling.

It was like, he wanted you to do it.

But, well, it was, he himself.

He was selling himself.

Yeah, but I mean, the whole thing was like, hey, I've got this.

I've got that.

I've got that.

It wasn't like...

This is what...

The Tiki-Toki guy that was actually selling,

like, physically selling things.

You know, join my app, kind of, join the stream describing...

None of that was happening for him, right?

Well, I don't know this guy, right?

I don't know how he derives his money.

But if he is, like, one of these influencers in the man's sphere

and he's, like, building a...

You know, a...

A following.

The following is based on false prejudice, right?

No, it may be, it's right.

But, like, I want to, I want to actually pivot a little bit into

the whole one-sided manogamy thing, right?

Because I, again, we...

And by the way, the only way from here is down

because I think Justin Boyle was one of the better ones.

But he...

What he presented this idea of a one-way manogamy was interesting,

but it was actually legitimate in a way,

because we met the wife in their family home.

And, I don't know about you, but I got the feeling

that this wasn't someone who had been bamboozled,

it's someone who had accepted the gamble,

accepted the kind of the way the chips had fallen

in her situation.

Like, it wasn't, like, the Marin Gaines example

where the woman, his girlfriend, was clearly uncomfortable.

And you felt like, oh, maybe she's been coerced into this

or been fooled.

But for Justin Boyle, his wife was talking confidently

to the camera, saying, this is my lane.

I'm like, I'm happy, and it works better this way, it works for us.

You know, like, I didn't...

Again, it was like two consenting adults.

You might not like it to the porn example.

You might not like what's happening over there.

But it doesn't mean it's not legitimate,

and it doesn't mean that you should automatically judge it

as being toxic, right?

Like, isn't that what modern-day empowerment is?

Like, we don't kink shame.

I don't know, I'm just challenging myself.

They're both getting what they need from the relationship, right?

He's getting a wife and a family,

and she's getting money, and whatever.

Like, I'm sure she sees something in him.

I don't think she's fond of the one-sided monogamy thing.

Like, I don't...

Like, that's not the part of...

Sounds like she's made peace with it, is all I'm saying.

Made peace, but, you know, that's also a bit of a, like, uh...

Well, you know, I know he's gonna cheat on me,

so I'm just gonna own it and at least feel better about it, right?

And I get to live in this house and have all these things, right?

I think that's part of it, right?

But I don't think that means you can't objectively say,

is that admirable, or is that...

I don't think...

Is that what we were?

Are young people to be inspired by that?

Like, I think you can...

Both things can be true.

I think you can respect that,

hey, like, if she's up for it and he's up for it,

whatever, like, that's a them thing.

That's a them problem.

But it doesn't mean to say that you can't cast your own judgment

about, is that living life-world kind of thing?

Like, that you can't have your views about that.

Yeah, I suppose so.

But again, I mean, it's 2026, you know?

I think that there are many, many ways.

I mean, bloody we're talking about thruples and polyamory

and all this kind of stuff, right?

Like, this is just pedestrian compared to that.

Yeah, but I think that's the difference between that and this is...

That kind of stuff is...

They might be, like, open-minded people

who take open-minded approaches to relationships, right?

But there's a certain kind of equality to that,

or equity to that approach.

But this is not...

There's no equity in that relationship.

And that's the difference, right?

And that's why it's not...

When you say, oh, it's 2026, actually think...

Yeah, and that's a very 1950s kind of...

I mean, the way it evolved pretty...

She was a professional, you know?

She worked in the medical...

She chose to leave that.

Anyway, let me get into the nuts and bolts of it.

But I do think that you just have to

challenge some of the positioning to this, right?

I think you can call it out for this.

Like, I don't think you need...

There's lots of worse things that you can point to.

And maybe it's your point.

Is he the worst one on the documentary? No.

But I think you can...

Like, I don't think it's one of those...

Well, some people like white chocolate,

some people like dark chocolate,

and some people like ice cream, you know?

Like, it's not one of those situations.

Like, I think you can say,

hey, like, there's something fundamentally toxic about him

and his attitudes and views.

It's not just...

So, if you...

Like, say one of our boys came to us

and they were like, oh, you know,

I really like this Justin Waller guy.

His videos are talking about being, you know,

a top dog and an alpha.

And he has this kind of view where, you know,

women like dominating men,

and it's good to...

good to be that kind of character

and not be weak and take risks and all that.

Like, what would you do if you got the sniffing sense

that, like, you know, your boy was starting to bring this to you

to almost be like, I'm a fan or something.

What kind of...

What would you say to him?

Well, I won't necessarily go into the tactics of what I would say,

but I would say that I would intervene.

You'd intervene?

Yes.

I would not be comfortable with that.

Yeah, it's very interesting though,

because it's tricky with kids, right?

Like, you mean, they don't want you approval

and sometimes the more you try to steer it,

it can make kind of almost self-reinforce.

So it is tricky.

Well, that's what I mean.

I don't know what my tactics would be,

but I would...

If I had to say,

ah, I love that Justin Waller guy.

Let's watch him together.

I'd rather do drugs inside the house.

Let's watch Andrew tape together.

But look, I think that also stepping back from

any one particular character.

I was a bit...

I'll put it out this way.

I'm a Louis throw fan.

I've watched his stuff growing up.

I love the fact that he goes into subcultures

and he was one of the earliest people

to legitimize that form of journalism and documentary,

where he'll explore a really freaky subculture

and I find it so fascinating

and I always have growing up.

So when he did this,

I don't know, he just really didn't hit the mark for me.

I just don't think that his style,

his British disarming,

just asking questions,

coming across as very non-intimidating,

accessible and letting the crazies

essentially expose himself.

I don't think it really worked this time

because you need a level of shame and self-awareness

and these guys.

If the currency has changed,

it's not about being right or wrong,

it's just about attention, right?

And so I think that it didn't really work for me.

I didn't really like,

oh, there was not a harm moment

because you can't trust what's coming out of these people's mouths.

You don't, and they're so varied,

like the atmosphere is something

that has been applied as a secondary term.

And what I would also say is that

he was a bit of a missed opportunity in my mind

that actually he's taken some very comical figures

of the atmosphere.

And some obscure ones too,

like I hadn't heard of that tiki-toki guy

and he was obviously the worst, one of the worst.

And he didn't take any of the serious people

of the atmosphere that were actually

had something to say of value to young men,

like I would probably put Jordan Peterson in that category.

But there are a lot of other people

that are in there, maybe even like a jocco

or even a Joe Rogan, right?

So I kind of think there was a bit of a missed opportunity

in that way and it seemed like a bit of a stitch up to me as a result.

Okay, so a couple of thoughts.

Number one is his model of interview

and that didn't work for these guys

because they used him, not the other way around.

So like Louis Theroux's whole thing is like,

I'm going to go in there, not going to know who I am.

I'm kind of going to go and sort of exploit them a little bit

because I'm going to get all this like juicy stuff.

They're going to say stuff to me unfiltered

and they're going to look a bit silly

and hey, I've got this like epic documentary on my hands, right?

That's not Louis Theroux's.

And whereas that doesn't work here

because these guys get narrowing their clout from this guy, right?

So Tiki Toki, like you say, you never heard of him.

Now you have, and now he's on Netflix

and he doesn't care about his reputation.

His whole stick is to like get as much publicity

saying the most outrageous things possible.

Like that's his whole business model, right?

And he actually gets money from doing that.

And then so when Louis Theroux goes and plonks him

on like the top, you know, kind of TV show on Netflix,

like it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's not,

it doesn't work the way that Louis Theroux normally works.

When you say like a stitch up or a beta,

I don't know how you sort of framing it like,

can I just ask, do you mean in terms of like,

this is casting shade on what is commonly called the Manusfit?

Well, I think it's like in the same way

that, you know, you've got this idea of the intellectual dark web

that rounds up a whole lot of people

that are active in a certain space

or have a certain style at a certain period of time.

But in reality, it's a very, very, very crowd.

And what it does, I think, is it takes a,

it takes the very worst of it and tires all of it, right?

And, and that's what I'm not a fan of, right?

Like, because I, because I think maybe to that is,

I don't think the intention of this.

And I've seen articles that do this

that like to lump these guys with Joe Rogan

or Jordan Peterson.

Like, those figures are intentionally not being like,

like Louis Theroux is not dissecting

the world of Joe Rogan as part of this

and never set out to do that.

And it was about these influencers who,

and we should just probably say,

like, I think, like the audience for these people

are predominantly like 14-year-old boys, right?

Oh, the ones that we saw.

Jordan Peterson, Joe Rogan, their audience is like,

like, people our age, you know?

So they're different parts of the system.

And I think it definitely the zeitgeist

is that there's this thing called the manosphere.

And Joe Rogan would be probably captured

under that umbrella as well.

But I don't think the intention, I agree.

Like, I think this was like the toxic end

of the spectrum and that's why it would be

probably deeply unfair to have covered

like Joe Rogan as part of this

because the implication is,

Joe Rogan is the kind of guy who, you know,

believes a woman's role is.

The problem is to wash the dishes sort of thing.

The problem is that like you said,

Joe Rogan, Jordan Peterson,

Joe Rogan, all these kind of other people

are caught up under this umbrella of the hemisphere.

And what this does is it doesn't kind of say,

hey, this is the toxic part of men's advocacy

or men's rights or whatever it is,

like how you would describe it with a port of brush

of what they're doing.

It kind of just reinforces this thing

that actually, yeah, they are.

And you know that there are plenty of people

that think that Jordan Peterson is a toxic

manosphere content influencer, right?

And that it's a red flag to people

that they're into Peterson, you know,

the men are into Peterson, right?

So I think that it doesn't help

and I can understand what you mean

that they didn't want to expose more credible figures

into that because the reality is with Louis Thoreau

that people like watching the circus.

This is not a guy that is an honorable journalist.

He's creating entertaining pieces

by taking some pretty reprehensible characters,

or you know, it's never really like misunderstood

and see that, you know, like,

we're gonna take the KKK member

and actually show you how it's a nuanced,

and they have a heart of gold

and actually they do a lot of community work, you know?

You know, Alabama, he does it to make fun of them

like a borrowed thing, right?

And I think that that, to your point,

is an exploitative relationship in most cases, right?

When it comes to these documentaries.

So I don't think people get fooled by that

and think that he, he himself.

And I think there was some exchanges that started

to expose that ago around like,

hey, who's, who's using who here?

Who's exploring who?

And actually this idea of, you're part of the problem, mate.

Like, if you really understand these,

you're taking the extreme end of reprehensible figures,

you are platforming them, right?

You're getting on the fresh and fit podcast, you know,

you're a participant in there.

You're getting live streamed, right?

And I just, yeah.

So I've got problems with it,

and I've got problems describing it.

Like, people from the left

trying to give praise to Louis throw for doing this.

I read some articles,

like a lot of the ones I read about at work,

like, there was the reaction to the

manuscript itself, right?

Which everyone, like, that's your first instinct.

Like, oh my god, like, is this real thing?

Like, is this, are they actually young people watching this?

And I think one view you might downplay it, right?

You might say, oh, yeah, but like,

there's like a small proportion of kids,

like, people who watch this,

they tend to be mature like 13-year-olds, you know, kind of thing.

So let's just not like have a moral panic over it.

But then equally, you've got like,

people in the street kind of mobbing these creators, right?

They know who they are, like, they follow these people, right?

So I don't know that maybe it's naive to kind of,

like, under-subscribed or under-sale the impact,

because they clearly, they clearly reaching some people, right?

But at the same time, like, a lot of the reviews

of this documentary work, quite critical

for the very reasons we've spoken to, saying, well, you know,

like, Louis Thoreau got played,

and, you know, did a disservice, right?

And so I think that's, you know, but I'm just,

I am interested in this idea that like,

like, let's say we take the manosphere

in its most broad possible conception, right?

And let's say we include three anchor points, right?

One anchor point is like the Andrew Tate space, right?

Then another anchor point is Joe Rogan space.

Andrew Tate is like, all toxic all about, like,

all that stuff that we saw in this documentary,

but then the Joe Rogan side is, no, that's not,

it's a bit broy, it's a bit, like, sports oriented,

and kind of just, hey, we just want to have, like,

fun conversations that we don't take too seriously,

but it's, it's definitely male oriented,

but it's not toxic to the same extent, right?

And then another, another anchor is, like,

something like a Jordan Peterson.

And I would even go so far as to say, like,

I know this is going to sound like an odd thing to say,

but even like a figure like, like,

we talk about Sam Harris, right?

Like, I would even say there's part of this space,

particularly the Jordan Peterson side of this

that even someone like a Sam Harris fits into,

which is the kind of like, I guarantee you Sam Harris

is like predominantly listened to by men.

Sam Harris?

Like I reckon, yeah, like I reckon that's the thing, right?

Like, so any environment where you just get lots of men,

you know, I don't think you're going to say

Sam Harris is part of the manosphere, right?

But I think there is this thing where it's like,

there's shades of gray here, you know,

and then say like a Jordan Peterson,

probably is like a harder edge to that

where he starts talking about, like, you know,

how to live your life and like, yeah, you know,

empowerment stuff.

But like, I don't know, maybe it's like the,

the boardroom of the 1950s, like, they were all men,

there were some toxic boards,

there were some less toxic boards,

but it doesn't change the fact that they're all men.

Look, it goes to my comment before where it covers

a lot of things, right?

And each of these influences or, you know,

presenters in the manosphere have a different kind

of pet project or angle, right?

Whether it's men's rights, whether it comes

from like, pick up artistry, you know,

or it's more political red-pilling, right?

You know, in talking about the matrix,

so it's much more of an anti-establishment kind

of projects, right?

Like, there's a whole bunch of things.

And then there are ones that are a much more

like business and wealth orientated, you know,

and there's lots of things in this space.

And it's there, they're popular because there is a need,

there is a displacement of men, you know,

from where they, the places that they held

and the privileges that they had in society

to how that's eroded, you know,

in the last 50 years, right?

So that that's kind of what it is,

but I do feel that what you don't want to happen

is for the more credible figures to be number one

tired by this, which they, I mean, they're really high,

even before this, this simple documentary,

which was a nothing documentary.

But also this, to not engage with that,

like not to, you don't want to isolate these people

even more, I will actually reject the idea

that say Jordan Peterson type character

is speaking to young, young boys.

I don't think that's true.

I think, I think you would find that

people listening to him will go all the way up

until, you know, like 40, I think.

Well, that's part of what I mean

when I was saying, like, I don't think

Jordan Peterson and Joe Rogan are listened to

by 14 year olds, but these guys are.

So the guys on the documentary are.

So that's why I was saying, like,

I don't think anyone would watch that documentary

and then think Jordan Peterson and Joe Rogan

are flawed figures.

I think a lot of people who didn't watch it

or don't know anything about it

or have no idea what the difference is,

like, might be confused about it.

But like I said, I think Joe Rogan,

and I think Jordan Peterson is like a 30 plus thing.

There's not that many, like, school-aged kids,

like, listening to Jordan Peterson now,

I don't think, right?

So they're different audiences.

But I'm quite content, if I'm honest.

Like, I'm quite content with the reputation

the manuscript has for itself in totality.

Like, Jordan Peterson will be criticized

for a whole range of things unrelated

to the conduct of these guys on this documentary, right?

And you can argue the toss on that.

And I think the difference with Jordan Peterson is

he's actually, like, genuinely

an intellectually sound kind of thoughtful person, right?

And I think he does this, like, annoying thing

where he kind of almost, like, talks gibberish

and makes it sound intellectually brilliant.

But he's actually said nothing.

And then when you look confused,

he almost wins the argument by default

because, like, hey, you didn't understand

what he was saying, right?

Kind of thing.

So, and that's kind of annoying.

But I don't think he's sort of malicious.

And then Joe Rogan, I think you've,

he, it's a shit talk, right?

And I think it's, again, I think he's negligent.

And he does things which are unhelpful.

But I don't think it's malicious.

I think it's, it's well-intentioned.

But, and I think all of the reputation associated

with that, like, I'm okay with it.

Yeah, I mean, there's, there's not really an angle

to stand up for any of the toxic stuff

that is spouted by these manosphere people.

And actually, I pretty much knew all of them,

except for Tiki Taki.

H.S. Tiki Taki, whatever his name was.

I feel queasy even saying that tag.

But some of the ones like Sneco, you know,

they're quite dangerous as well

because they speak about these crazy conspiracies

and, you know, the Jews running everything

and all this business, you know.

So they all have a very, you know,

they have their own flavor of poison that they spout.

And I wouldn't want to ever give the opinion

that we're encouraging that, right?

But I also just think too that I want to believe

that people are smarter than this, you know,

that it is not, that the influence

that these people have are somewhat superficial.

Like, I think that they attract a crowd of people.

You know, if I look at the pie chart

of people who are exposed to this content,

or even people who follow this content,

I've got to believe that a significant chunk

of that pie chart is purely based on entertainment,

you know, and they're just like watching Wild Shit.

Or, you know, like the people who like watching videos

of Ben Shapiro owning Lib Tards, right?

Or whatever the liberal equivalent of that is.

Like, surely some of it is just duck hunting,

you know, like entertainment.

Or audit videos.

Yeah, you know, you don't mean like, you don't.

It's entertainment, and I have to believe

that that's how these young people go, right?

They're just like, this guy's funny.

He says outrageous stuff.

He's got hot women around.

And, you know, like, I'm willing to,

this is my guilty pleasure.

Like, some people watch maps, and some people,

some people watch Meredith first sight,

and some people watch this kind of podcast,

where they interview Bimbo's and only fan models

from Miami and ask them what the capital cities are.

And just laugh when they can't answer things.

I do think that's part of it,

but that stuff can start to influence people, right?

So, so what starts off as like an innocent,

oh, that was just like, there's this funny clip.

I don't necessarily agree with the stuff,

but like, hey, it's like, I don't know,

it's like a train wreck, and I just want to watch more

of it, right?

But like, eventually like the more people watch,

and it like, it does rub off.

And I think it can rub off on even.

No one's rubbing off at the moment, Andy.

Who's to blame then?

Isn't it, doesn't it come back to the platforms then?

Well, then we're going to go back into conversation

about maybe we need to have age verification

on YouTube or age verification, you know, like.

No, but I mean, they're going through this right now,

actually, I think Meta is, right?

If you look, if you go on the internet

and you look at Meta and you see the number of core cases

that are against them right now, oh my God.

Because it's true, like, you could have all these

philosophical arguments about the internet

and freedom of speech, but when you are selling a product

that you are profiting of, you know,

and the ownership of this company puts you in the,

you know, the top five billionaires in the world or whatever,

then you do have some responsibility

if your product is selling to have some pretty adverse effects,

right?

Do you know what?

It's just the one thing with the tiki-toki thing, right?

And part of me almost didn't mind it,

because I know that like, what's the name?

What's the porn star, what's the name?

The one that he had that interview with Bonnie Blue?

Bonnie Blue.

So, you know, I know this, this Bonnie Blue, right,

is like, whole thing is like marketing herself, right?

And saying, like, oh, I'm going to like have sex

with a thousand men, because it's like,

it's just headlines, right?

And saying, I, well, I don't know that she did,

did she?

Is it?

But isn't that this is the whole rumor thing

that she, like, apparently she says she did it,

like, she didn't actually do it, like, I don't know.

Um, and it's like, oh, I'll tell you what I'll,

and then the latest one is like, oh, I'll tell you what I'm going to do.

I'm going to like have a massive gang bang,

and I want to get pregnant, and I won't even know who the data is.

Like, what the fuck?

Like, what the, like, do you know though?

She, she did, I don't know whether she was successful,

but she did try to come to schoolies on the Gold Coast.

But, like, all of that stuff, right?

It's just, it's all just like headline chasing, right?

And so she goes in there to have like, again,

more headline chasing with this tiki-toki guy.

And as much as like, the tiki-toki talks completely disrespectfully

and misogynistically, all those kind of things, like,

I could tell if he really riled her up,

like, he really got under a skin.

Yeah, he's a troll.

Like, he's probably the most, you know,

stereotypical troll of this group, right?

Have you seen the interaction he's just had

off the back of the fame and the notoriety

that he's gained from fucking Louis the Rowe?

He's gone on Pierce Morgan online,

and he has acted like a complete asshole,

you know, showing photos of Pierce Morgan's wife

and goading him to the point where even Pierce had enough,

he's like, I can't do this.

A combination of being badger,

but also the fact that he's interviewing

this type of person, right, on his show.

The guy is a troll, right?

He's so hateable, but it's, when it comes to these trolls,

it's like, you, it's your problem as the viewer,

you are the ones, you're responsible, right?

You're responsible for his being,

his existence in the world,

and that's the truly depressing thing about this situation.

I must say, I do think you must have a different algorithm

to me because I'd never heard any of these people,

but you seem to know them all.

Yeah, well, you know what?

I find it hard to believe that you weren't exposed

to some Andrew Tate though.

No, I never, well, I never got any Andrew Tate

in my, any of my feeds for anything.

The only, you must have been one of the few people

who didn't get Andrew Tate.

Even women who didn't get Andrew Tate.

No, I never got Andrew Tate.

I only came to learn who Andrew Tate was

after like through kind of controversy of him, right?

Like not because I saw his content.

Well, yeah, you must be on a very different algorithm

to me because I'm definitely Andrew Tate.

And especially around COVID,

Andrew Tate was, I, I believe,

like a third of the internet traffic.

He was everywhere.

Well, do you think that's true though?

Like because the numbers don't lie.

He did his volume and traffic absolutely exploded.

And he was viral for a very, very long time.

And through the way that he had subscribers,

repost and reclip and reclip and reclip

all these different accounts,

it wasn't a traditional model where it was say,

like Kim Kardashian has a massive Instagram following.

So it's natural for you to see Kim Kardashian.

No, this was like a hostile takeover of the algorithm

so that Andrew Tate content was distributed

as much as possible through different accounts.

There was no main account.

And so in that way, it was decentralized.

So no, I don't think it was, I don't think it was that.

I do think that, you know,

I obviously have a different algorithm to you,

but yeah, I don't know.

You'd be one of the minorities, I think,

that didn't get exposed to it.

No, I'm gonna say I don't think I would have been

a minority.

I think maybe if you say of like,

within my demographic,

even women.

Yeah, I don't know.

But anyway, do you know what I did do the other day?

I went through like, and to be fair,

I don't even know what we were talking about algorithm,

like every now and then I'll go on Facebook

and I'll see like, you know,

whatever the Facebook kind of,

what do they call it?

Not shorts, but, you know,

I think the reals now too, actually.

Yeah, and I just like scrolling through,

not because I wanted to watch the reals,

but because I was just like,

what is all this shit I'm getting?

And I started noticing I was getting a certain kind of video

of like, I don't know why it came up,

but like of these people just doing these really lame dancers,

like that were just almost like very unintus yet.

I was like, what the,

but the different people doing like this,

the same kind of style of,

I don't even know how to explain it like,

unintus, what the fuck is this shit?

So I just, I actually went in and said,

don't show me any more of this.

Could it work?

Well, I don't know,

but I'm trying to think like how smart is the algorithm?

Like, what does this not for?

It can't be that smart.

And you know why I say that?

There's something that's happened in my algorithm.

I don't know what I've done,

but every now and then it starts serving me

reals in Spanish.

Right?

And like, I don't, I try to,

you know, obviously say, I'm not interested,

I just know it's wrong,

but he keeps on coming back.

And I do, I do not obviously speak or can understand, right?

So it's, it's obviously,

doesn't even know what language I speak, right?

And it's, it's crazy.

But then again, like, I don't know if you've ever,

I have people that I work with,

say like Indian people.

And when you look at their reals,

it's all Indian people.

So like it's, it can pick up race,

it can pick up all this different kind of stuff.

But in my case,

it thinks I can speak other languages that I can't.

Well, multi-talented.

All right.

Well, we could never stop learning in this life.

So, you know, we'll kind of take it

from where you can get it.

Yeah.

Well, maybe you, maybe Louis Thorough,

I mean, the probably the biggest lesson to learn

from this exchange Andy is that Netflix

probably takes a respect to that.

I think that Netflix is not where you go

to launch your career anymore.

It might be a place where you go to end it.

All right.

Over and out.