172: Charlie Conerly - NFL

0:00This is Harvarencend of the Total Sports Recall Podcast and I recently decided to give Sterling soap companies ground breakfast blend coffee a try. While brewing the aroma was inviting and the taste, likely sweet and delicious as the texture of this amazing coffee was sweet and smooth. As I experienced a coffee with a velvety texture almost creamy. Sterling's breakfast blend is light but in no way weak with a high quality taste and smell. My wife and I are now hooked on Sterling soap coffee and you should be too. Check out their copies and other products at SterlingSope.com. That's STIRLINGSOP.COM This podcast is part of the Sports History Network. Your headquarters for the yesterday of your favorite sport. You can learn more at sportshistorynetwork.com. He was selected in the 13th round of the 1945 NFL Draft by the Washington Red

1:01Skins but was blocked from playing by one of the games all-time great Sammy Baugh. Meanwhile one of Washington's chief rivals the New York Giants were in need of a quarterback so the two engineered a trade and the rest as they say is history. And next on Sports Forgotten Heroes we'll take a look back at the career of that 13th round draft pick quarterback Charlie Connell. This is Sports Forgotten Heroes. A tribute to the stars who shaped the games we love to watch and the games we love to play. Stars who provided us with many thrills but when their time was up they faded away. We'll take a look back at their spectacular careers. Their moments of fame even if it was just for one season or just one game and now here's your host Warren Rogan. Hello and welcome to Sports Forgotten Heroes episode number 172 Charlie Connell. He was selected in the 13th round of the 1945 NFL Draft by the Washington Red Skins. The New York Giants were in need

2:07of a quarterback. Arnie Herbert was at the tail end of his career and the other two quarterbacks on the roster were Paul Governelly and Frank Filchock. Not exactly household names. New York really liked what they saw in Connerley and for good reason. Over the next 14 seasons he led the Giants into four championship games. Winning in 1956, 47 to 7 over the Chicago Bears and of course Connerley and the Giants came up short in the famous 1958 championship game against the Baltimore Colts at Yankee Stadium in what is now built as the greatest game ever played. The Colts won it 23 to 17 in overtime. Connerley just might be one of the most overlooked quarterbacks of the 1950s. He played during the same era as

3:07such stars as YA Tittle, Otto Graham and Bart Starr. He had a very unique way at looking at games. He was the Giants number one quarterback. But if you look at his numbers, dive deep into the stats, you will see that he didn't start many of the games he played in. In fact, in the 1956 championship season, he didn't start a single game. His record was 0 and 0. Back up quarterback Don Heinrich, well he was the quarterback of record for every game and he got the credit for each of the Giants wins that year, including the championship game in which he completed just three of six passes for 21 yards. Connerley relieved him with 7 of 10 for 195 yards and two touchdowns. You see, Connerley liked to watch the defense he was playing against for a series or two before he stepped on the

4:08field and it worked for him. Joining me on today's episode of Sports Forgotten Heroes to talk about Connerley is Chris Willis from the NFL. Chris has been with me on several editions of Sports Forgotten Heroes and he'll share a lot more about Connerley on today's show. Before we get there a few notes, please follow Sports Forgotten Heroes on X at Sports F Heroes. Look for the Sports Forgotten Heroes page on Facebook and Instagram and wherever it is you are listening or watching please give Sports Forgotten Heroes a like and hit that subscribe button. And as always I thank you for your support. Okay, let's get into today's show with my guest Chris Willis. Chris, welcome back to Sports Forgotten Heroes. I am thrilled you accepted my invitation to join once again. No thanks for having me more. I appreciate it. Always have a good time talking about some

5:10obscure football forgotten heroes so this is perfect. So I enjoy it. So thanks for having me back. Yeah, I tease people. I say, well, we're just a bunch of sports nerds that love to talk about this stuff and I'm happy you're back. Got an interesting topic today I think Charlie Connerley, a great quarterback for the New York Giants. But I'm not so sure that there are many people out there who recall or know about Charlie Connerley. So let's start today's show with this for fans who might not know who Charlie Connerley was who was Charlie Connerley. Yeah, I was excited about to be able to talk about Charlie, you know, because I think he's he's definitely a name that has gotten you know, forgotten in time that

6:17that that I think definitely Giants fans, you know, you know, even the diehards and and then just general, you know, historians fans of the game fans of the history or even fans of quarterbacks, you know, because Connerley, you know, is arguably, you know, a Hall of Fame type player of his era. And you can make a case like he's in that top three. I mean, the Giants just passed their 100 season and you can make a case to say, hey, you know, you have Eli Manning, you have Phil Sims, you have Charlie Connerley, you know, maybe being the top three, you know. So it's a, you know, he's a very interesting guy, you know, you know, that played a long time, you know, for the Giants, you know, at a time where that, you know, especially in the 50s and early 60s where the team was

7:20very, you know, very popular and at its height, you know, including winning a championship in 1956. So so just in general, Connerley is a as a giant quarterback that every giant fan should know and then even in a full fan should know who Charlie Connery is. Yeah, definitely. His career, I think, is often overlooked as you sort of just said, by quarterbacks like from the same era, right? Otto Graham and YA Tittle and a little bit of Bart Starr and a little bit of Johnny and I this. Why do you think history has overlooked Charlie Connerley? That's an interesting question because he checks a lot of boxes off, you know, you know, he wanted, he wanted a championship, you know, in the 1950s, Giants, he wanted to league MVP in 1959, you know,

8:26he made pro balls, you know, he was a starter in multiple championship games, you know, his, his yards, when he retired, he was in the top five of all the major categories, including third place and touchdown passes, you know, but the completions and yards and attempts, you know, he was, you know, either fourth or fifth, you know, and nowadays, you know, with the other stats or even, you know, the last, you know, 30 years or so, he would have been super well known, you would think. And I think in 1961, you know, when he retired, he was, you know, I think a well-known quarterback, it's just all of a sudden, he's, you know, he just, you know, kind of retired and just, you know, either fell off the face of the sporting world, you know, and wasn't out there, you know, doing TV or that type of stuff, you know, so maybe that's what got him a little side track and loss,

9:29but there's a lot of, you know, check marks that, you know, that he checks off, you know, on a football resume when you look at quarterbacks, you know, there's quarterbacks in the hall of fame that don't have some of the things that Charlie has. Yeah, that's one of my big questions, which is, and you sort of just answered it, um, is he considered one of the most underrated quarterbacks of the 1950s? I mean, I think he deserves a lot more recognition, and, you know, definitely underrated. What do you think? Yeah, and there's no question, you know, I mean, you know, I think if you look at his era, and then when he retired, like, you know, the hall of fame was just founded in 1963, so he just retired, you know, and he's, you know, a top five quarterback in the history of the NFL, you know, which was, you know, for, you know, 43 years, you know, you know, over four decades,

10:36so, so at that point, you know, especially when the hall was opened, he was legit, you know, a hall of fame quarterback, you know, and, uh, and, you know, you can get into a little more details like, uh, in the late 60s and early 70s, like he was a seven-time finalist, you know, for the pro football hall of fame, you know, seven times, you know, and this was like, up till, I think 72, 73, you know, or 74, and then he, you know, he, didn't he fell off that list, so you're like, how can he be a finalist for seven times, and then all of a sudden, you know, sort of, you know, fall, fall off the hall of fame list, so, uh, so that tells you what type of, you know, player he was, you know, you know, the level of, you know, whether he's a hallfamer or not, you know, he was

11:40definitely there, and, you know, probably should have gotten in in those first 10 to 15 years, and nobody would have caused a ruckus, you know, you know, now you might get some, even some voters or the younger voters, and he's like, well, who's trying to conner you? Why, why is he not in the hall, you know, but if you look at the resume, uh, it's quite impressive, and it is a hall of fame resume. Yeah, I mean, he, he led the team into, I think it was four championship games. Not every quarterback, lead your team into four championship games, you know, 14 year career. I mean, he was one heck of a quarterback, and it all began at Ole Miss. How important was Charlie at putting Ole Miss on the national map? Yeah, he's one of those early players, you know, uh, that sort of, you know,

12:44started, you know, the legacy of, you know, Ole Miss football, and, uh, and he was a well-rounded player, you know, he could do a lot of things, not he could pass, he could run, you know, he played defense, you know, but, uh, you know, he was definitely, you know, when you look back at their, their history, you know, he's definitely one of the first couple of names that you come up with, like, you know, and, and the key for him, from, for me, at least when you look at it is, you know, his career at Ole Miss was interrupted by World War II, and, you know, he played his freshman in sophomore year, you know, he, he was the starting, was starting back, you know, sophomore year, you know, they were, they were pretty good, but then, you know, with World War II and, and a lot of the, the young men, and you can say, even young boys, and the United States said, hey, I'm going to help the cause, and so he leaves, you know, University of Ole Miss, goes to, you know, he's

13:50sursum time, he was out in the South Pacific, you know, became a, a decorated, you know, soldier, and, you know, did his part, and then he comes back and he plays his junior senior, you know, you know, maybe a little bit wiser, you know, a little bit bigger, you know, you know, the body feels out a little bit more, so, you know, that time away, and, you know, he, but he proved it on the field and showed, you know, what he could do, you know, and that made him ready for the NFL, but, Ole Miss was, you know, definitely benefited from, from, from, Connor Lee being there, as a prize athlete, student athlete. Yeah, when he, when he started at Ole Miss, if my research is correct, he actually started as a half back, and then he wound up a quarter back, you know, how that happened? Yeah, I mean, you got to look at the time period that he came up, you know, the early 40s were, you still had some single wing, um, formation, so, so he probably

14:56started more as a tail back in that formation, um, and then when he went away to the war and came back, you know, um, which was around 1946, then the T-formation was already ushered in, you know, with the Chicago Bears, you know, famous 73, nothing game, and so he took over as a T-form, which was more traditional now, you know, take the snap from center, you're going to drop back and pass, you're going to, you know, do some play action, and those, you know, maybe a roll out, or something like that, so, uh, so he got a little bit of both, but definitely, you'll probably start, uh, his career as a tail back. Um, you, you alluded to it just before, he played his first two years at Ole Miss, then he left for a couple years to serve in, in, in, in the army, World War II, he was, was famously fighting in the battle of Guam, um, and I think when he came back, he could have gone to the NFL, but decided instead to go back to school, back to Ole Miss,

16:04you know, it was behind that decision. Well, I, you know, uh, I think it was more, you know, it, you know, that he wanted to go back to Mississippi, you know, he, it was a Mississippi boy. Uh, uh, it wasn't that he was, you know, oh, wow, I can't play any in the NFL, no, he could, but he had been away for several years, you know, um, you know, almost three, three to four years, so I think he just said, I, I miss Mississippi, I want to be home, you know, uh, I want to play, you know, for Ole Miss, uh, so, uh, so I think that was a big part, part of it, you know, um, so. Well, when he got back there, 1946, he led the Rebels to their first ever SEC title, led the nation in several passing categories. That was just a start in, in 47, he helped Ole Miss

17:10to some really big wins, beat, uh, Kentucky, he beat Florida at Florida, LSU, LSU, Tennessee, at Tennessee, the game was played in Memphis, was fourth in Heisman Trophy Balloting. How good was he? No, he's, you know, uh, I think he showed it later in the NFL, but, you know, he was peaking at this time, you know, you know, say he was, he was a tad older, you know, he's like 24 years old, 25 years old, so, um, sort of gave him probably a little bit of a nudge, but, uh, but some, some plays were coming back from the war too, so, you know, so, uh, but no, he was legit, you know, like I said, today he would be, oh, wow, he's going to be a first rounder, and, you know, go through all the measurements, and he's like, okay, you know, here's a big guy that can run and pass, you know, he's smart, you know, so he's tough, um, and so, at that time, like I said, he was,

18:18you know, he was on the radar of some of the NFL teams, you know, at this time, which didn't have as big a scouting department and stuff, but they knew Charlie Connelly was, and that he could win big games, uh, you know, that he could play at a high level, uh, and physically, you know, had all the skills to, so, uh, today, he'd be like, you know, oh, he's a camp miss, he's a, he's an Andrew lock, you know, he's a Trevor Lawrence, you know, you know, those guys went number one, oh, number one overall, he would have been, he would have been that type of conversation. Well, he finishes college career, uh, pass it for 2,313 yards and 26 touchdowns. Now, back in the 40s, those were big numbers. I mean, obviously, not nearly as big as they are today. So, the red skins draft him in the 13th round, the band, some guy out their team, his name was Sammy Baugh,

19:19you know, you're not going to supplant Sammy Baugh. So, they traded him to the giants. How did that trade come about? And how crucial was that trade for New York, which, you know, they were not the greatest team at that time, you know, and if he had stayed with Washington, he might never have played. Yeah, that was a unique situation, you know, for Charlie and for the two teams, you know, but I think the giants bought of Connerley a little bit higher, maybe, than Washington. And like you said, the, the residents still had Sammy Baugh on their roster, and he was going to play, he was going to, you know, get the majority of the time. So, and Connerley was a little bit older, so you know, you know, how many more years are you going to

20:21get from him, you know, you know, might have been discussed, you know, so, well, they got four, the giants got 14. It's pretty good. Yeah, so, uh, so yeah, so it's a unique situation, but I think, you know, it was perfect for Charlie and, you know, being able to play, being, play early in his career, didn't have to sit, you know, behind a, you know, a star. And, and I think he made the best of it. And that's really unique. And his story is the fact that here's the guy, you know, yes, he went and was in the war, but here's the guy who grew up in the deep south, grew up, and going to Ole Miss, which didn't have any African American players. The SEC really didn't have any, and, you know, African American players. And he's going to go to New York City, you know, which is, you know, a hotbed, you know, for, you know, for both Blacks and White culture. And he sort of fits

21:24in, you know, he, you know, he does a tremendous job of relating to it, not all of his teammates, but even some of the Black players. And, you know, here's a guy from the deep south, Mississippi, and he, you know, he sort of made a connection and an understanding of, you know, not only all of his teammates, but, you know, especially with some of the, you know, the Black players. What did the Giants see in him that convinced them that he was the right guy? No, I mean, they were, they weren't, you know, the 40s were, you know, just an average period for the Giants, you know, they weren't quite at the level, some of the other. So, and then with the T-formation, I think they thought that he could fit in with the T-formation and what they wanted to do, you know. So, they were confident in that, you know, I think he

22:27exceeded anything they thought, you know, I don't think they were like, hey, we're getting the next Sammy Ball and he's going to win. No, I thought he could be a good player and he could start a quarterback. And then I think he just exceeded, you know, how good he was. Let's see. A general question here for you, Chris, about the NFL as a whole. How different was the game when Charlie entered the league compared to the game today? Uh, no, obviously there's some, some big differences, um, with, you know, even just the rules and the size of players and things like that. I mean, you're more traditional things that that you can compare. I think the thing that developed that you can somewhat see today is, you know, his entire career, the 14 years, especially in New York, you saw some of that growth,

23:34you know, of what the league would become, what you see today, you know. So, you know, he comes in, you know, as a rookie, in his first couple of years, you know, you know, there's no, there's not as as big exposure, you know, TV is not, you know, gripping the league or the nation, you know, um, you know, in the, you know, a number of teams and things like that, you know, you know, you know, Madison Avenue, you know, when he leaves, Pete Rosal just becomes the, you know, the commissioner, he moves the office, the office to New York and then all of a sudden to 60s starts to take off with, you know, a ride of a league and things like that. So I think over his career, more than trying to, you know, maybe compare, okay, what was going on and, you know, maybe on the field is he saw the difference, you know, it was kind of like, okay, hey, I came in here and then, okay, when I left, you know, TV, you know, you had a rivalry, you had,

24:38you know, two rival leagues. He just brought that up. So he came in when he started the ABAFC and on his way up, he got the AFL. Yeah. So, you know, I'm sure he probably saw, hey, look, look what's going on, look how the game has grown. And then he, you know, he lives through, you know, the 80s and early night, you know, so he probably even sees, you know, later on, wow, you know, he was a part of that growth, especially in New York, like, they weren't going titles, you know, until, you know, once I get to the mid 50s and, you know, especially in 56 through 61, you know, like, they're always a title contender. And everybody fell in love with, you know, the giants in New York and, you know, and all that stuff. So I think that's probably what, you know, was the difference maybe for him throughout his career. During my research for the shows, I watched this

25:40online show called Giants Chronicles. And Frank Gifford, who was on the receiving end of many of Charlie Connolly passes, he said this and I, it was a little confusing. I think I know where he was going. He said, Charlie had a great touch to him with Charlie. You could take your eyes off the ball before it got there and you could be looking for the defender. As a little confusing to me, but I think what he meant was that Charlie always put the ball where it was supposed to be. Talk about Charlie's accuracy. You know, his completion percentage for his career was 50.1%. How good was that considered back when Charlie played? Yeah, I think one of the underrated things with Charlie was, you know, Charlie had a very good touch on the ball, you know, and Gifford has

26:41said it. Kyle wrote was another receiver, you know, that was very productive with Charlie. And they all said that he threw a soft pass. So I think that's where that, quote from Gifford comes is, hey, you know, because it was a soft pass, but it was always, you know, accurate, you know, non-time, I could take a, you know, quick peak, you know, where the defender was because then it wasn't a rocket ball, you know, or wasn't, you know, you know, a sort of looping, you know, long, you know, long passes, all the way through. So, you know, especially Gifford Gifford was a, you know, pass out of the backfield and as a flanker. So he probably was, you know, doing the swing passes and things like that and needed to know where those defenders were coming. So if the ball took, you know, an extra beat or two, he was fine with that because then he could catch it and then, but know exactly where the defender is. So, so I think that's one thing, Connor Lee did very well.

27:49You know, the 40s and 50s, even into the 60s a little bit, completion percentage wasn't as dominant as today or even the last 20, 25, you know, now, you know, if you don't complete 70 percent of your passes or 68, 69, 70 percent, you're, you know, you're, you're probably on the bench, you know. So, but 55 percent, you know, it was kind of average. I think the thing I look at, you know, like that, I think he threw a softball, he threw a catchable ball, you know, wasn't difficult or made it difficult for his receivers. And I think when you look at, you know, his statistics, the season that stands out is 1959, you know, he's, he's 36 years old, he's 36 years old in 1959 and he completes a career high like 59 percent of his passes.

28:52And he's those 14 touchdowns, but only those four interceptions. Yeah, you know, and it's just, you know, just a tremendous year, he wins the only MVP, you know, from the NEA, you know, the newspapers, enterprise line. And he, you know, the giants win the East, they play in the championship game, he just loses that to you and I just, and it's just, you know, like there's not too many corporate, especially in that era that once they got older, you know, seemed to get a little better, you know, but at 59 season where he's completing, you know, a career high, and he threw nearly 200 passes. It wasn't like 58.2 percentage completion percentage. Like you said, 14 touchdowns, four interceptions is rating was 102 points. And by the way, I hate to correct you, but according to this, he was 38. Oh, he's 38. Okay, he's even older. His age always, you know,

29:54seemed to be older than the last. So he's 38. I mean, that's just, it's just an amazing year. You know, like I said, he's a, you know, amazing player, a whole fine player. And so, and that's the thing, and he threw some interceptions. There's one, he threw like 25 interceptions. So, you know, and a lot of those quarterbacks, especially in the 40s and 50s, usually threw more interceptions than touchdowns, you know, Bobby Lane, you know, in the war of Ambrockland, you know, Johnny, you know, when United States said, so it wasn't unusual for a quarterback to do that. But for 14 years, if you look at Connerley, he threw more touchdowns and interceptions in his 14 years. Yeah, 73 touchdowns, 167 interceptions. Yes, take away 1953, which was probably about the worst year he had with the Giants. Yeah, he had 13 touchdowns and a league leading 25 interceptions. Yeah. So he made that away. He had a lot more. Yes,

30:58yes. And he did the same thing in his postseason games. I think you threw four touchdowns of four interceptions in the postseason, you know. So, so even the, the couple championship games he lost, wasn't like he was, oh, wow, he threw four interceptions and then they got beat. No, you know, so so he's very accurate. Yeah, and Gifford's real right on. He did throw an easy catchable saw pass. So would you say with the Gi, I mean, he earned the trust of his teammates really quickly. I mean, his first year, 1948, he throws for 22 touchdowns, 13 interceptions. So he's establishing himself pretty quickly. Was he known? Would you say more for his arm, his toughness, his intelligence, leadership overall? What do you think Charlie was known for? I would, I think I'd first start with

32:01his leadership, you know, and his ability for the guy. Now he wasn't a raw, raw guy. He wasn't Bobby Lane and, you know, who kick in the butt and give you a fiery speech in the huddle or something. So he wasn't raw, but and I and a lot of the guys that fought more or two, you know, sort of had that type of mentality. But I think his leadership comes from like I mentioned a little bit earlier, like here's a guy who came from the deep south, you know, in Mississippi. He came to New York. I mean, his first year, you know, he befriends, you know, Emlin to now. I mean, Emlin to now walked off the street and asked for, you know, a tryout with the Giants and he got it and he made the team, you know, you know, and he befriended them. I mean, like, I think it would have took, you know, most guy from Mississippi, you know, a couple years to maybe, you know, befriend, you know,

33:04a black player and, you know, he did it in New York City, you know, the city that never sleeps. So his leadership, you know, I think was second to none. I mean, from where he grew up, like where he was on that team that eventually won a championship. Like, and the way he treated teammates, the way they respected him, I think when, and I think that's why they were successful. I think that's why, like you said, they went to four championship games, they won one and, you know, puts up whole fame status because the teammates sort of rallied around him, you know, and he also had no ego, you know, I mean, here's a guy, I think a few teams did this, but here's a guy that didn't start hardly any NFL game. You know, the guy played 14 years, he rarely started

34:04because he wanted to see what I want to get to that. Yeah, because that's a really interesting, interesting thing. I do want to talk about that. I bet you some of that leaders also came from his time in the military. Oh, absolutely. You know, like, you know, you sort of, you know, become a leader and, you know, like I said, even if it's, you know, through just a few words or your actions, you know, and that kind of rubbed on it. And a lot of that were some of those NFL players in the war, you know, came back and were able to use that to lead men because, you know, you know, even though you might have been 25, 26, like, yeah, it still was very hard. Hey, I was in a war where I'm shooting at people that now somebody's giving me directions and, you know, trying to tell me what to do, you know, Paul Brown had that with his players, you know, buddy Parker with his players, like the coaches and, but a lot of these players came back and say,

35:10you know, you know, it's better than getting shot at. I'll play football, but you don't have to tell me twice what to do or, you know, what play you want to run or the guys, like, hey, I want to, you know, I want to ride with with Connerley or I want to ride with AutoVam just because of that experience that they had. Yeah. We'll get to this. It's so interesting to me about how many games he started or didn't start versus how many he actually did start. We'll get to that in a moment. It really didn't take long for Charlie to establish himself with the Giants. The year before he got there, they were they were two eight and two. He stepped in in 48 and they went four and eight then six and six and then in 1950, the Giants were 10 and two and won the East. Outside of that blip in 1953, when they went three and nine, they were a winning team with Charlie Connerley, a quarterback.

36:17Did he possess qualities? That's statistics just don't measure. Yeah, I think you can say that, you know, especially the time period he played in, you know, if you look at him, you know, obviously he's not going to have huge, you know, passing yards and you know, touched, although the time he retired, he did have, you know, pretty good numbers of those categories. You know, now you look at make a pale and competitive, but I think if you watch some play, if you watch the film, I mean, he's a type of guy like, oh yeah, I wouldn't want him starting from my team, you know, you know, in the early 50s and that's the other thing. In the 50s, there was a lot of really good quarterbacks and they all won championships and, you know, outside of a token, Tobin wrote, Tobin wrote, won the 57 title with the Lions, but Bobby Lane broke his leg late

37:24the year and you just happened, the team was a championship team, they beat the Browns and he didn't have to do much. So, but outside of that, every single quarterback in the 50s, that won championships is in the Hall of Fame, except for him, you know, you know, there in Brooklyn, Waterfield, Graham Lane, United, and Connerley won the 1956. He probably should have won in 58, but, you know, obviously they'll do a famous overtime game. I mean, United is one of the top two or three of all time, you know, a quarterbacks and he just couldn't get over the top there to win a second or a third, you know, championship. So, so I think if you watch him play, if you watch the games, you know, some of the game films, he looks like a Hall of Fame quarterback, you know, when you watch him. You know, I recently did a podcast and I had a couple other guys on that also host, Sports History Oriented Podcasts and I called it the Sports Tavern and I'm going to do it a couple

38:25times a year and one of the things we do is we debate whether or not somebody deserves or doesn't deserve to be in the Hall of Fame and who we think should be in the Hall of Fame that isn't. Charlie Connerley is going to be my next guy because this deserves to be in the Hall. In 1950, he helped lead the Giants to the playoffs, but they lost to Cleveland 10 to 3. 1956, his second appearance in the postseason, he led the Giants to the NFL championship game against Chicago. Now, I think the 56 Giants are considered to be one of the greatest teams in franchise history. And by the way, 56 was really cool. It was their first year playing at Yankee Stadium and 56 was also the Yankees winning the World Series and Don Larson pitching the perfect

39:25game. What an incredible couple of months at Yankee Stadium that's coming from a Met's fan. But it's also the first year of the National TV contract. What made that 1956 New York Giants football team so special? First and foremost, I think it was well organized from the front office first. They had a lot of stability with the mayor family. And I think probably the most important thing is they were really super well built. You know, they were coming along in the 50s, but behind like Wellington mayor was huge on the scouting part and getting the right players, but they loaded up a really good team on both sides of the ball. You know, like when you look at their starting, you know, defense and their starting offense, you know, there was a lot of really good talent,

40:28you know, on both sides. So I think that helped them, like said, they were very close because it even went into the 60, you know, even when a kind of retire, they were in the championship game in 61, 62 and 63. You know, so he played in four post seasons, well, they played three more, you know, 61, 62, 63, you know, when they made the trade for Y-Tiddle. So that roster was stacked, you know, for almost a decade, you know, so I think that was the biggest positive for them is, you know, they weren't just, oh, wow, we have a great quarterback, but not much else, or we have a great defense, but, you know, we don't, you know, we don't have the franchise quarterback or, you know, or they were flashing the paint, they weren't, they weren't flashing the paint, you know, they were not one-year wonders, you know, like the 85 bears, you know, and stuff like that.

41:33So, so I think that was, that was their major sort of emphasis was they built the roster to compete for a championship, you know, for at least a decade, and that's what drove them, you know, in my mind. Yeah, 56 was the beginning of a glorious time for the New York Giants. Now they whip the bears in that game 47 to 7. Chicago was 9-2-1 with Patty Driscoll at the Hellman. Giants went 8-3-1 under Jim Lee Howell. In the championship game, Charlie was 7-10 for a, imagine, 7-10 for a hundred and 95 yards. Two touchdowns, big play was a 67-year-old order to Gifford. He also connected with Gifford and Kyle wrote for touchdowns in that game. But that game had another, another aspect to it. It was the second time the Giants,

42:36I guess it was another sneakers game. What, what is, I know what, tell us about that. It was the sneakers game too. Yeah, it was obviously, if you know a little history, you know, 1934 was the first one, the Giants switched into sneakers in the second half and then they rolled over the bears. Well, this time, they didn't have to switch it, they knew, hey, the field's going to be frozen. We're going to wear the Chuck Taylor sneakers and you see the footage, the footage, they're wearing Chuck Taylor sneakers and the bears, once again, this time they didn't have a chance from the get go because the Giants dominated pretty much the entire game. You would think the bear sort of learned a lesson from third hand, they were at that point. Yeah, so they jumped on the bears, you know, kind of early and rode that momentum pretty much the whole game. And, he did what he had to do and then because the defense was really good, those New York fans

43:45chiming defense, most of the season and during the game, so he just rode that and did make any mistakes, I'd say he went seven to ten, 190 yards, he's a lot of yards just for seven completions and he threw a couple touchdowns and you know was able to enjoy that. And I think Giford said that was one of his favorite moments as a giant was seeing Charlie Connerley's joy after that game. You know, he's been around a while. He's been with the Giants at least a amount of years, you know, like you said in 53 they were terrible, you know, and now three, you know, and Charlie, you know, was a stoke as any player, you know, maybe the play the position like he did not show a lot of emotion. So for him to show joy, you know, after that game and then the locker room, you know, I think that went a long way with some of the teammates to say, look, you know, you deserved it. You were a leader, you know, especially in 56 and so that's that's a high point.

44:50Well, let's now talk about games started versus coming in off the bench. His stats for 1956, he was 90 of 174 for 1143 yards, 10 touchdowns and foreign receptions. What I find interesting is that according to football reference, it was the only year of his career that he did not start a single game. So his record for the year was zero and zero and he did not start the championship game either. Donut and Rich was a starter for all of these games. Well, I think was eight, three and one and gets credit for the win in the 56 championship game. And, you know, 37 for 88, 369 yards, he threw for five touchdowns, five interceptions. How did that work? Why was heimert the starter and Connerley wasn't taught what was going on there?

45:56I think there was a preference for Connerley, you know, in the coaches seem to be okay with it. Connerley wanted to see the defense first, you know, you know, just from even though it was from the sidelines, he wanted to see, you know, what the defense was doing and the Don Heinrich sort of experiment and it would change, you know, from game to game, you know, it wasn't, it wasn't a set thing. So there might be times where Heinrich would play one series and then, hey, you know what, I'm ready, you know, and Charlie would be ready. Sometimes it would be two, you know, maybe, maybe go three, you know, if he was up to Charlie, you know, once he felt comfortable, you know, and then he would do that. I believe if I'm correct, I think in the 58 championship game, because the Colts at Yankee Stadium, he only sat for one series and then he was ready to go, you know, you

47:00know, you know, he very early in that game, he didn't need to sit there and watch, you know. So I, and that was mostly commonly wanting to do that, you know, to, to be a better player. You know, like, he didn't have any go, he didn't say, you know, when I need to start, I'm the starter, you know, you know, and have that type of mentality, no, he didn't, you know, he, he was fine with that and he thought it, and obviously they had some success with you know, that he didn't have to start, he didn't have to, you know, but he, he, he usually came in when he was ready and he, and the majority of the time, maybe nine, he finished the game and that's, that was probably more important than who started. Right. Yeah, he started off of 161 games he played, he started 105. So he was on the bench to watch the start of the game. A lot of times to evaluate the defense and the playoffs six, posties and six, six games

48:08started to them. He was also the quarterback in the greatest game ever played as a call it, the 23 to 17 overtime lost to the Baltimore Colts and the championship at Yankee Stadium. He wasn't awful. I mean, 10 to 14, 187 yards and a touchdown. For the year, 88 of 184 for 1199 yards, 10 touchdowns and nine interceptions, obviously, a heart breaking loss. Tell us about Charlie and that 1958 game. Yeah, he, you know, yeah, he played his heart out that game. Like I said, he, Heinrich, you know, didn't play that much, you know, so the thing that hurt and they hurt both teams from, was several turnovers on both sides of the ball, you know, you know, so, and that kind of slowed the giants down, you know, a little bit, you know,

49:14with some turnovers and, but no, he played his heart out. And then, at the time, as you see it in the fourth quarter, you know, the giants had to leave, you know, it was just three points and he just happened to run in, you know, to, you know, you know, you know, either number one, number two of the greatest quarterbacks of all time in Johnny and I, this and, you know, you see that, you know, guys who are even the greatest of the grades, you know, they're going to have their moments, you know, you know, whether it's Montana, you know, with the catch, you know, you know, Tom Brady and that, you know, for Super Bowl, that nobody thought they could win, you know, and John Madden telling Tom that the Patriots should go to overtime, and then all of a sudden, no, he leads them to, you know, like there are moments, you know, like that, and you nice actually happen to do it against Connerley, you know, I mean, they had a three point lead late with this great defense,

50:15but you nice found a way to tie the game, then in overtime, you know, after, you know, the giants, you know, had to punt, he leads them to the touchdown, you know, so, yeah, it wasn't like, you know, he, you know, was the reason they lost or, you know, that, you know, he didn't play very well. No, he did play well. He played well in the majority of those playoff games. And, you know, he said, you can only add, like I said, he had to lead, you know, under two minutes, and they just couldn't, they just couldn't finish, you know, and they got beat by, like I said, they didn't get beat by slop or they didn't get beat by some crazy, you know, some goofy play, you know, but they got beat by Johnny and I just, there's anybody ever talk about the fact that the giants had to play the Browns in a playoff game, make it to the championship, they want it 10 to nothing.

51:15Connolly was decent, 7 of 11 for 75 yards. How tough was Cleveland? And as anybody ever talked about the fact that again, the giants had to play against Cleveland while Baltimore was able to sit home and, and prepare more, you know, not take a physical beating that week. Does anybody ever say that that might have contributed to how the giants played that game? Maybe a little, you know, I think most teams make that maybe with a little bit of the turnovers, you know, in the championship game, you know, but, yeah, that game, I mean, the Browns were always tough, you know, especially in 50, you know, 758, you know, because of Jim Brown, you know, so, so, so maybe yeah, maybe there was a little bit of wear and tear, you know, because, you know, Jim, he's running the ball.

52:23You know, 25 times in the game and, you know, he's running hard, you know, but the giants found a way to stop him, you know, so, yeah, so, you know, so maybe a little bit, but like I mentioned, like said, the giants did have to lead with under two minutes ago in the championship game, you know, even after all of what they've gone through over those last couple of weeks to get to there. You know, one of the fascinating parts of Charlie's career is that Vince Lombardi was his offensive coordinator, and at the same time, Tom Landry ran the defense, you know, two of the greatest coaches of all time on the staff, what was that dynamic like? Yeah, I mean, who would have thought that yeah, you'd have Landry and Lombardi on the same staff and, I mean, they were polar opposites. So, you know, I mean, Tom Landry was from Texas, you know, you know, straight lace, you know, low key, you know, didn't really want to, you know, raise his voice, you know, cerebral while Lombardi was from New York, you know, you know,

53:40both of them religious, but he's from New York, little loud, you know, you know, we want to be heard and wants to be seen and, you know, you know, but both had pride in their work, you know, and, and Jim Lee Hout, you know, knew what, you know, which buttons to push to get the best out of them. And, you know, that just showed just like, I mentioned earlier, like the top from the front office to the coaches. To the coaches to the sort of roster was just top notch, you know, you look at it like, okay, you know, obviously they lose Lombardi in 59, they lose Landry, you know, in 60. So, and obviously those teams went on to have great success. So, but it just showed you what the mirrors were building, you know, the way they judged talent, you know, on the roster and in coaches, because you got to think once those guys that once Jim Lee Hall, I mean, Ali Sherman became the office coordinator, he did well and got them to a champs you can't just.

54:49So, they seemed to know what they were doing there there in the Giant's front office. How much of an influence or how did Lombardi influence Charlie's game? Well, Lombardi, I mean, obviously he just, he knew X's and knows as well as anybody, you know, so, so I think he knew what Charlie's strengths were. And then he knew the strengths of his offense, you know, so, you know, probably a little bit more, I wouldn't say wide open, but, you know, he was able to work, you know, a little bit more with what he had was Connerley, you know, but I think Lombardi just knew, you know, his skill level knew what he did best, you know, and tried to curtail. That, you know, in his game plans or some of the play calls he would, you know, suggest to Connerley, you know, so, and I think that's why Connerley was very successful during those years.

56:00In 56, 57, 58, you know, before Lombardi left and, you know, and had, and then Connerley had his, you know, like I said, one of his best year with Ali Sherman in 59, so. But Lombardi knew people's strengths and weaknesses, I think as well as any coach in NFL history and Connerley kind of benefited from that. Well, you know, like we said, he led them to four championship games, one, one. There's an interesting lineage here for Giants fans of today Connerley went to Ole Miss and won an NFL championship with the Giants Eli Manning went to Ole Miss won two Super Bowls with the Giants. Jackson Darts got some pretty big shoes to build, doesn't he?

57:00Wow, you're really reaching there, but that is that it. I mean, right, that's put even more pressure on Jackson Darts, I guess, so that would be a very strange but true sort of nugget to say, hey, look, the Giants have had, you know, this could be the third Ole Miss quarterback that wins a championship. So that's something to, you know, like that's positive, that's positive thinking there. Yeah, not not seen the glass half empty there. I went with it. I was thinking about that. It's pretty funny. So when you're talking about Charlie Connerley, I got to ask about probably one of the most unusual chapters of his life came after football. When he became the Marlboro man, I can't even say the word Marlboro, right? The cigarette Marlboro. Yeah, how did that happen? Well, I mean, it just, you know, a funny happenstance of, you know, he had the right look and he, you know, knew the right, you know, people.

58:11And they said, hey, let's give this a try and he looked perfect. I mean, there's not too many other people. Maybe I saw a Sam Elliott that looks like, you know, the Marlboro man and could, you know, could play that role. But he seemed to fit it and, you know, he didn't have to really speak. So that fit his personality, you know, I think very well he wasn't somebody that wanted to, you know, to be in movies or, you know, be the, the life of the party. So it's kind of like, hey, you know what, I'll do it. And it just perfect timing and situation for him to do that. Funny how we all have a difficulty pronouncing certain words. More, more, more, I can't say more of Marlboro. That campaign became one of the most recognizable advertising campaigns in American history. Coming from such a small town like Clarksdale, Mississippi was truly comfortable with that kind of thing.

59:19I mean, he didn't seek it, you know, you can almost compare his career, or at least, you know, with his one of his best friends was Frank Kifford. And, you know, I think Frank sort of pursued that a little bit harder. You know, I think the thing for Charlie was, you know, he was the face of the giants. He lived in New York during the season, obviously, and he'd like to go out. But it was more of a, I want to go out with my wife, you know, Perry Ann was a very well known personality too. And she, yeah, she's like the first ever woman of the professional football writers. Yeah, so she knew football. She was writing a column, you know, back in Mississippi, you know, that, that, you know, other newspapers would pick up this sort of give you a little insight. So they like having a good time, you know, not necessarily partying, but just like, hey, we want to go out to dinner. We want to go to the church Shores, or, you know, we want to go see a play, you know, and Gifford, you know, was the same way.

1:00:30So he would go out to dinner or just have a drink or two. And so I think he liked that. He didn't mind doing that. He just didn't need to be the life of the party or, hey, I need to be on TV, you know, you know, like some of those New York players, whether it was like Frank Gifford and Sam Hough, you know, went into TV or radio or did some, you know, some, some more media, you know, Charlie didn't really need to see that out. But he did like to, hey, I want to go enjoy. If I'm going to be New York for, you know, five months, I'm going to enjoy it. I'm, you know, my wife's going to enjoy it. And we're going to get the best out of it, you know, so, so, so he didn't really seek it. He wasn't a fame seeker or publicity or, you know, TV once TV, like, Carl wrote was another one who did TV, you know, in New York and nationally. And Pat Summeral, like, there's a lot of guys that did it kind of let them, you know, sort of take, you know, take the reins on those, those type of jobs later after life.

1:01:36But he would, he wouldn't enjoy New York, you know, as well as anybody. Can you think of any story, one story in particular that perfectly captures who Charlie Connolly was both as a play end as a man? Well, I think I mentioned it kind of earlier. I think it shows you what type of character he was, you know, coming from, you know, the deep south and this city, and to be able to relate to, you know, you know, this whole organization of the New York Giants. I just, I think that just shows a lot more character of who he was, you know, you know, you know, you know, I think some of those players from the south, you know, took a little bit of time to get to know people or didn't take the time to get to know, you know, so, so for him to be able to say, hey, look, you know, best friends with Emlenson now, you know, Rosie Greer, you know, you know,

1:02:40Rosie Brown was his protection on you know, left tackle Hall of Famer like for him to fit in so well and they respect him so much, you know, I think it just shows you, you know, the type of character he was. So it's not quite a story. I just think it's his personality, you know, because I don't know too many, you know, you know, I mean, there's baseball with P.W. Reese, you know, sort of his relationship with Jackie, you know, but in football, you know, some of the players from the deep south, you had never played against an African American, you know, so, so for him to be a leader like that, you know, I think like said, shows a lot of what type of character he was. The character he had in the respect that all his teammates had for him. Well, Chris, this has been fascinating. I mean, this is we're talking about a Hall of Fame quarterback who's not on the hall of fame. I mean, that's basically what it comes down to.

1:03:42I want to thank you so much again for taking time out of your day to spend with me and sports forgotten heroes. I always appreciate it when you visit. This has been terrific. Thanks so much. Nope, thanks for having me, Warren. I'll look for the next invite. It'll be there. For his career, Charlie Connerley threw for just under 20,000 yards with 19,488. He completed just over 50% of his pass attempts through for 173 touchdowns, and he was the quarterback who led the Giants to the NFL championship in 1956. He's also the quarterback who put all miss on the mat with several. We'll call them legendary wins. Thanks again to my guest today, Chris Willis. And thanks to all of you for tuning in. And I'll see you next time on Sports Forgotten Heroes. Hi, this is Joe Zimba, and I'm a host of the podcast when football was football here in the sports history network.

1:04:49This podcast is based on stories, events, and characters from my book called When Football Was Football, the Chicago Cardinals and the Birth of the NFL, which was written shortly after the Cardinals won their last championship in 1947, or so it seems. The reason for this message is twofold first to share the great news that the second edition of the book has just been released by McFarlane Publishers. And all sports history network listeners can now enter a special sports history network contest for the opportunity to win one of two free copies of When Football Was Football. We'll be happy to include a personal inscription in each winner's book and then send it out to you with our best wishes. The new book contains about 80 more pages than the original, almost all new archival photos, additions within all chapters based on new research, and an update on the players, coaches, and administrators mentioned in the book. It's everything you ever wanted to know about the early Cardinals as well as the NFL itself.

1:05:52To enter this free giveaway, go to sportshistorynetwork.com slash giveaways. Thank you!