127 Travel

Welcome to episode 127. Travel. Join us as we discuss the joys and challenges of

leaving home for far-flung places. Stay tuned.

Welcome to the Witchie Witt podcast where we look at life through Witchie Lens.

I'm Kimberly. I'm Lailani. At Witchie Witt we explore current events,

ideas, music and books, and experiences in ways that recognize energy and life and everybody and everything.

We are both real witches. And we bring two real perspectives through the lens of our different ages,

races and backgrounds. With a healthy skepticism for what we have been told is true.

Our conversations are raw, candid and vulnerable. Join us as we cast a spell to uncover what we each know is true

and our intuitive Witchie selves. Welcome to episode 127. Travel. Yay!

I mean, what's not to love? What's not to love? Well, actually, yeah. Okay, never mind.

We'll talk about it. Okay, excellent. So we'll do, so that's what we'll be talking about today and we'll end with a poem.

But before we do that, let's take some time and just check in as two people who love each other.

Yay! Would you like to go first? Sure.

I would like to talk. So this weekend, I attended one of our magical intensives that reclaiming does.

They have at least two a month or one, at least three every two months, something like that. Anyway.

And this is a, this one, they started after COVID, they started doing a hybrid version. So they have an online one in Minnesota,

outside of Minneapolis. So it's, yeah, yeah. So there was a lot of feels around that.

And then there was the online version, which is everyone, like in the class I was in, there was someone there from Germany and someone from Australia.

And, and we start and, and the first ritual was Friday. Last ritual was yesterday. It was the last ritual was on a Tuesday.

And they do a spiral dance. So when they first, when I first have you seen an online spiral dance?

No, I haven't. And I, could you maybe talk about what a spiral dance is in person? And then, yes, some of our listeners might not know what a spiral dance is.

Oh, thank you. Thank you. A spiral dance is basically everyone in the circle is holding hands. And you start out actually in the circle.

And then the person who was leading it, who knows the geometrical combinations, it's more like a labyrinth, I think, than anything else starts.

And the basic idea is that they start the, the line going. And then when they get to a certain point, they fold in.

So the idea being is that then that first person can not the second, not the second person, but definitely the third person they can look into the eyes of the third person and the fourth person and so on.

So as you make that turn, then you're able to look into the eyes of the other people. And the only people that whose eyes you cannot look in, it's difficult to look into would be the person on either side of you.

But the rest of it, if it's done well, you look into the eyes of everyone. And then it, it, it circles in and it circles out and it's circle.

It's the person who leads it knows what they're doing. You've let it in the past. I, it would be one of those.

Do you remember family circus? It's a cartoon. It's in the Sunday paper. And it shows when the little kid is supposed to come straight home from school, but it shows his footprints going all over town.

That's what it would look like if I let it. So, so that we, we choose wisely. But I have never done an online. I was thinking, how does that happen? I don't know. Well, what they do is so someone leaves the song.

And, um, and then what they, what they do, anyone whose camera is on, they spot like them for six to 10 seconds.

And then they go to the next person, et cetera, until everyone's until every, until, you know, they have a tech person doing this. And then they, they basically, yes, spotlight them.

I'm a pin them, you know, make them big. And so, um, so I've done it. So I, we did this at a camp that I taught in back in the fall. And then we did it on Friday. And then we did it yesterday.

And I don't know it's because maybe it's because I was taking the class. And I could be really, really relaxed. And I could fall into it. My, my, the class that I was taking was a three day class was the witch's scream. And how, you know, your scream can be can have power.

And, and your scream doesn't have to be a verbal yell. It could be like art or whatever. Anyway. So I think because I was really open and vulnerable to that.

When we did the spiral dance at the, at the close, I felt so open and tender that I was basically sobbing the whole time, sobbing the whole time. Everyone just looked so sweet and dear to me.

And, and some of them I knew well because they were in my class. And some of them I didn't know that well. But I knew them from the various rituals over the past five days.

And it was just, it was such a moving, a sweet, poignant, moving, loving moment that I've never, I don't know, I can't remember having had that with an online, you know, thing.

And so it was just so, so wonderful. And, and I was so jazzed by like, I'm looking now at all these other online things. I'm like, I've got to do this. I've got to do that because I, I don't know if you can ever recapture like that experience of the first time.

But I want more of that. And I, and I live by myself. Our group only meets once a month. And, and so, you know, just the idea of kind of reinforcing the chops that we started to develop when we did our precessing of practice.

It's just really, I'm just, it's really landing for me for some reason this year when it didn't previous years.

Wow.

Yeah. So, so that's my, that's my check in. I'm feeling really, really sweet about that. I think it's just, it's something that I'm going to hold on to for a while. What's going on with you?

Can I just dovetail one thing to you? Sure, sure, sure.

I am amazed every time when I hear about online stuff at how I have my own personal experience has transformed since what I and what I believe our world went through during COVID.

And, and the opportunities that it's offered me for online things that I would, I would have never considered.

Right, right. Thank you. I, I think that that's a really good point that I can't talk, speak for anyone else's experience. But I think one of the things that opened up for me is that in reclaiming there's, you know, there's, there's camps in Australia, Brazil, etc.

But this is, in the past few years, this is the first time I've been in ritual with these people because I'm, it's good.

It'll be a major trip for me to get to speaking of travel, a major trip for me to get to Australia, which I'm planning on today. So my bucket list.

But, but to be able to at any point say, okay, let's get together and talk about how we're going to do this ritual or this part of the ritual and with someone who's like, who's in Germany.

I just, I just, I find that kind of amazing. And, you know, it's the, the miracle of, of the connected world. But also, we've talked about, which isn't technology.

You know, it's, we're not running through, running naked in the woods. We're like sitting, you know, checking with our, with our devices.

But there's still a very magical part of that that I wouldn't have guessed if you told me this in 2019, I would say, yeah.

And I would offer our listeners, if you haven't listened to our episode on techno paganism because we talk about some of the really interesting things that happen when witchcraft meets technology.

It's like Hogwarts, right? Yes. Yeah.

Yeah. So we've, we've blown a couple of, oh my gosh. So yeah. So anyway, what's going on with you?

So I wanted to share a little bit about how I love the dark time of the year so much. There's something I love about waking up in darkness and going to sleep in darkness and the majority of the day being dark.

I love it so much. And I feel a sense of sadness as we shift into spring. And as I notice when I wake up in the morning and it's bright, it's already, you know, it starts to become light outside.

I feel a sense of sadness of like, I am, I'm like, no, the dark time of the year.

It was only here such a short time. Right. I'm like, how? It doesn't feel like it was a dark time of the year. I mean, 50%, right? But it doesn't feel that way.

And then at the same time, I also really enjoy the liminal times of the year spring and fall. I really enjoy times of change and transition.

So I do appreciate that. But there is something I do grieve leaving the dark time of the year. And I think that's one of the reasons why fall is really special because I start noticing the days getting longer.

And I find that so like exciting and it's like rejuvenating getting the dark more darkness.

And I totally get this because I feel as if I know you as well as one can know someone with all the, you know, variables.

I wonder though, it's so funny because I think because of our witchy connection, this does not surprise me when you say this.

I wouldn't have thought it originally, but when you say that, I'll totally make sense.

I wonder though for people who don't know your witchy side, what they think that, because it seems to me often that you present this very sunny disposition

and I wonder if this would be a surprise for people who don't know the witchy you.

In my experience, it is.

Because if you said that, they probably like, what the hell?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Because, and the reason I say that is because when I first met you, I would have, I would have like, I don't think I'd call you like fluffy pagan buddy or anything like that.

But definitely, you know, like sun shiny and face to the sun and, you know, fluffy pagan bunny by the way is a reference to our spiritual bypassing episode.

If you'd like to go, that was not too far ago.

Yeah, exactly.

And then also I would recommend pagan feminist astrologer episode because I bet Kimberly would have some really interesting thoughts about, because I do think I am sunny.

But then I am also really.

Oh, right, right.

Darky, so shadowy, so I wonder.

Like, do you know your rising sign?

Yeah.

Oh, okay.

She knows them for me.

So now that we've checked in, I would love to move.

Yeah, we checked in.

I would love for us to move into talking about travel.

Talking about travel, yes.

I'm just going to lead with saying one of the reasons I retired when I, when I retired was because I love travel so much.

I think in all of my bios, like on Insta and all this kind of stuff, I have travel.

So I think something about traveling there because it's, it's up, it, it, for, how do I want to put this?

It is a major part of me lights up when I'm thinking about travel, when I'm really, I get all the travel newsletters.

And then when I actually travel, I just lose my fucking.

But I, I, for a number of reasons that we'll get into maybe during this episode, I'm so glad we chose this title because it's something that's, it's really important to me.

And I really, I love talking about it and I love doing it.

So having said that.

Traveling is really important to me too, I agree.

I think that's one of the things you and I connect over.

Yeah, well, and actually we connect, literally we connect it while, while traveling.

I didn't, I didn't mean for this to be the thing I say over and over again in this episode.

But if you want to know more about our traveling, we, we hiked the Camino de Santiago, which is a currently as a Christian pilgrimage, but has pagan roots.

And so we traveled to Spain and hiked all the way across Spain.

Yes, so for a month, we traveled together for a month.

And then before that, we traveled for a priestessing in parenthesis.

Yes, yeah.

So, which was, you're, yeah, a little bit over a year every month.

So, you know, travel is a, travel I think is an important part of, I think, taking our relationship to the next step.

Yeah, wouldn't you say?

I would.

So, so, you know, what are some of the things that when you think about like, okay, travel, Leilani, what does that picture look like?

For me, I have a very specific type of travel and I am aware of that because I am not a good travel companion to everyone.

And that's okay.

That is okay.

There are so many different types of people who like to travel and I am a specific, I am a very specific type.

So, I like to travel where I am embedded in the local culture and I like to travel where I, but I have a safe space.

So, that would mean that I have a bed to sleep on and a place to shower.

So, I don't do well with ruffing it.

Like camping or hostels?

Like, like backpacking through the woods.

I do not do well with that because I don't have a bed or a shower.

Gotcha.

But I also don't want to stay in a resort.

I don't want to stay in a place that is sealed off.

Because then the way it feels to me is that I can be in a resort anywhere.

Why would I fly across the world to go to a resort there whenever there's, I could be, I could get a similar resort experience.

The reason why I'm traveling is because I'm honoring a place that I am not normally.

I get it.

And so, the resort for you is a bubble that closes you off from the culture.

For me, it feels that way.

Yeah.

And I get to other people don't feel that way, but for me, it feels that way.

Well, it's not podcast.

This is my podcast.

And this is what I want to say on my part of the podcast.

So, we can say, yes, exactly.

I mean, if people don't want to hear it, they can just turn this off.

And you're a part of the podcast.

What would you say?

Yeah.

Oh, me.

You're talking to our audience.

So, it looks like a lot of different things.

So, I don't mind camping.

Not extent.

No.

Like you, I do want to shower.

And I want to shower where I don't have to stand on one foot because I'm afraid to put my foot down.

As you know, with the bath mask.

Oh, my gosh.

Our friendship got much deeper in that moment and on the Camino.

That's right.

Because when we went to Portland, we didn't.

We rarely.

We didn't really say together.

I think the only time we stayed together was when our flight got delayed and we stayed in Chicago.

Okay.

Wow.

Oh, yeah.

So, I'm very particular about, so like you're particular about certain things.

As you know, I'm thinking about other things.

And so, that's one of the things that the magical intensive that we went to in California.

That was always my big issue with the shower.

I was like, I want my mask.

I want to be able to, I want to be able to stand on a clean place while I dry off.

I don't think that's too much to ask.

Anyway, but apparently it is.

Anyway, so, but I don't mind camping.

But I can't go too long because then I need that type of shower experience.

I don't mind resorts as much.

But often when I do go, I do do excursions from it.

So I do kind of, I leave the bubble.

But one of the reasons I love resorts is because I could just lay on my fat happy ass.

You know, it's like a cruise.

You know, where it's a particularly when they're all inclusive.

Where I can just say, I feel like a my tie or I feel like a milkshake or whatever.

And someone will bring it to me.

And I will tip them well and they will be happy and I will be happy.

We've exchanged energy.

And then I can roll over to the side and maybe have another.

You know what I mean?

So there's, when I'm feeling particularly lazy, like I really need to just have someone else care for me.

A cruise or one of those resorts would be the jam.

And I've done resorts like a, I've done Cabo and another one in Mexico.

I can't remember where else.

And so it was lovely.

It was lovely, but it was lovely because then I did book excursions where I went out to like the market.

You know, they had, they had their excursions where you can go snorkeling here.

But it was still very, I still not protected in an isolating way from the culture.

And like the normal people who live there are not doing that type of thing.

So I really wanted to go to the market.

And they said, oh, there's this wonderful Martin.

No, I said, like I would like to go to their version of HEB.

You know, I really want to go and see stuff like that.

So I did that.

And I also like, I like, when we did the Camino, we walked.

We walked.

We walked.

But we had a company carry, you know, take our luggage from one spot to the other.

Our luggage and sometimes Kimberly.

Because I did the Kimberly Camino.

You did.

I love this.

So, so those creature comforts are important for me, depending on what, when I have my mind set a certain way.

When I'm camping, that's not a thing.

But, um, but yeah, so, so yeah.

I could, yeah, I think there's a wide range that I would enjoy.

Um, I also love going to places where I get, um, well, now it's Airbnb, but back then you will go on Craigslist.

Remember Craigslist?

I do.

Yeah.

And you get places or before that, you would find like, for example, I used to do this in Italy a lot.

You would find there would be these publications where they would be Italian companies that would have the equivalent of like a month apartment or two months and whatever.

And, and I love that too because I'm literally living with the peeps.

And that is so, that's so much fun until one of them wants to borrow your electricity.

I can talk about that in another time.

But anyway, so, so there is that.

And then one last and then I'll give you a chance to speak.

Um, then there's, I, some people would not call this a vacation, but traveling to visit family.

Um, and that's a big part of my, that was, that's always been a big part of my life because I live away from the main bulk of my family.

So, um, at least once a year, usually about twice, I do something with them.

And, and ideally I drive because one of the things I love about traveling is to be able to just get out of my normal life and do, you know, and think, meditate, sing, whatever.

I do that in my house too.

But in my house, I also have to, you know, clean up, clean the toilet, put away, I don't have to worry about that when I'm on the road.

I can just drive, stop somewhere, get some food, drive, think, you know, how I meditate.

Um, so, so visiting family is not a vacation per se, but it part of it is very much a vacation vibe for me.

Yeah, that makes sense.

So, um, what are some, I don't know if we've, this isn't our outline, but yeah, what are some trips that you've taken that you've really enjoyed?

I have, so my partner and I travel a lot for acrobatics, we call it train cations.

Because we go and we train.

Yes, yes.

And so we've, we've, we've stayed at, uh, we spent a month at a certain circus center.

And so we lived in that city for a month and trained at that circus center.

And we've, we've traveled all over for a number of different.

Yeah, we've gone to a number of different circus centers and other places and, and intensive.

And we're going to win this summer in a new city.

Um, and so that's really cool.

So train cations is, is one way that I like to travel.

Another, another way that I like to travel is, um, spiritual tourism, spiritual traveling.

And that's what we did with our Camino.

And I've done, I've done things where I've gone into different Asian countries.

Oh, yes, I remember.

Yeah, yeah.

And so one time my sister and I, we were in a certain area.

And we, uh, I like to research the spirituality of the, of the place that I am.

And do a lot of reading on that.

And, and through that reading, I found a, uh, hot, a hot springs that was believed to be, uh, a goddess embodied in that hot springs for healing work.

And so the locals would go to this hot spring and bath in the hot spring.

And so my sister and I went, which was a spectacle because we're American.

Oh, yeah.

United from the United States.

And I had read about how our bathing suits needed to be conservative.

And my brand of a conservative one piece is not the level of, I mean, that was, I learned a big lesson on that.

We can generally wear bikinis because you're, I do, but, but I was wearing a one piece because I had read that that was, they said a one piece,

but, uh, an American one piece and, uh, one of their one piece is very different.

So I ended up, we ended up wearing shirts over our bathing suits.

But just seeing, but seeing their, seeing that, that culture.

Also seeing these old men in this over 100 degree water, I couldn't even get in it.

And these men are like up to their necks because they're so, I mean, it's just amazing.

That I, I love travel and like, I love stories and experiencing travel like that.

When you were saying about you did some research, I remember you did research for us from the Camino.

We did the, um, uh, with the, the spell, the Galithian, um, spell for, was it protection or something?

I can't remember, but yeah.

And where he sets the thing on fire, oh my god, that was amazing.

And he, he, he claimed that he was a third, like his, he learned how to do it from his grandfather,

which I thought was so sweet.

Yeah.

It was really cool.

It was really cool.

It was.

It was really neat.

And seeing the way when he would pour, he was scooping it and pouring it as it was on fire.

So it flame was a waterfall.

Oh, yeah.

Like a waterfall of flame.

Yes.

I mean, just this really elemental cool shit, man.

Yeah.

So regardless of how, how he was thinking about it, we made it, we made it our experience.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So I, you know, things like that, um, might be a little bit off the beaten path.

But it sounds like those are the important things to you than the path itself, right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

And of course, like when I went to New York, I saw the Statue of Liberty.

Mm-hmm.

But I also did other things.

Mm-hmm.

You know, because I think seeing the Statue of Liberty is cool.

I just think there's a lot more to places than-

Oh my gosh, to New York City.

Oh, yeah.

To whatever that place the Statue of Liberty is, there's always, to me, there's more to see than the Statue of Liberty.

Exactly.

Exactly.

So, um, it sounds, I mean, I'm trying to-

Mm.

I am very much interested in history and, you know, history, anything from like 50 years ago to, you know, 2000 years ago.

And so, um, but also, you know, how spirituality fits into that.

And so I remember, um, well, obviously we can go on and on and on about the commuter.

I will try to find another example.

But I did a lot of research in Rome when I was working on my dissertation.

And so just finding, there's the places that have the Roman, the ancient Roman connection.

But there are actually places that are older than the Roman culture.

And that, to me, was, I mean, I loved going to see the forum and all that kind of stuff.

And that was super cool.

But I loved finding the places that were there before the Romans put their stamp on that place.

And that ancient history or prehistory or whatever, um, is, is, is, uh, a really special part of traveling for me.

That we don't get it as much of this.

You know, I get stances we get elsewhere.

No, but whenever I was in Rome seeing, I could see where they had chiseled off the, the gods and goddesses and then had replaced them with Christians.

Yeah.

And I, and I remember feeling the sense of seeing, I was like, I see you, I see the chisel marks.

Like I see that you were there.

And yeah.

And I felt that way on the Camino too.

Yeah.

Oh, yes.

Yeah.

So, um, so when you, we've been talking a lot about cities and things like that.

Are there times when you get away from that or is that a part of your travel plans or thoughts at all?

Like traveling rule versus.

Yeah.

I mean, you know, there's the big cities and, and so I'll, and I'll give you an example with the Camino.

The Camino, basically the answer to any question you can ask is the Camino.

But, but one of the things that I do, I delight it in was the, where it would be the times when you left me in the dust because we do the first hour and a half.

And then I'd say, oh, go ahead and you think, thank God.

Okay.

See you later.

See you at lunch or dinner or whatever.

Um, and I would be walking.

I remember there was, uh, the, like maybe six days from the end where we were walking through those eucalyptus, um, forest.

And there was no one.

There was no one in the state.

I might be a little nervy about that.

Um, but there I was not.

It was just, I remember one part.

I took kind of look to make sure that people weren't, I literally just flung my arms open and just breathed in the scent and the air.

And there was another place I can't remember where you come out and there's, um, you see the, the, the lake.

And then there, the dam that we have to cross or the bridge we have to cross is way down at the far end.

What's further away than it looks?

It looks so close, but it is not.

And it's not because you have to zigzag.

Yeah.

But I remember standing there and just, uh, letting the air take me feeling like it might blow me into the lake and just saying,

what would that feel like?

Calm down.

Calm down.

Because I did have really good at travel insurance, but I didn't really want to test it that much.

But, you know, just like feeling the elemental nature of it and just standing there and just letting myself be buffeted by the wind.

And then, and that was the day we came out of the mists.

Remember?

Oh, cool.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

So, so I, I love, again, though, I love getting into nature, but I want to feel safe.

And there's places, it's, it's not kind of sad.

There's places in the states where I don't feel safe walking by myself.

You know, there was a couple of times where I was walking in this huge band of men were coming the opposite direction.

It was like, one coming out, you know, there was, I never felt that.

And I might feel nervous if that were the case in the States.

I did find it interesting that people would say, is it safe for you to be over there?

Walking by yourself and, and, and, and the interesting thing for me is like, look at crime statistics.

It is safer for me to walk by myself over there than to walk by myself here.

Mm-hmm.

You have to walk with a dog and a gun.

Right?

If you're in Texas, right?

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

So, yeah, so, um, yeah.

So, I hear you saying, nature and cities just depending, but you like both.

I love both.

Mm-hmm.

And I didn't, I mean, I knew I loved both, but like I said, the, the experience is a little bit more fraught here because I travel alone so much and I don't get to experience it.

Now I want more of, because it was so, it was so fantastic, um, in, in Spain that I want more of it here.

I just have to figure out how to do it so that I feel safe and I can really enjoy, allow myself to enjoy it.

I, I think I'm similar to, I really love, I find the sacred.

So, for me, traveling is really mostly about either training or connecting with a sacred, which I would argue training is connecting.

Mm-hmm.

I, I connect to the sacred through my body.

So, when I travel for dance or when I travel for, partner academics, it is sacred for me.

But, um, when I, when I travel for spirituality, being in nature is so wonderful and those, um, spiritual intences that, that you have, and I have done that are quite long.

Um, that's in nature and there's something about being, you know, without electricity for that long and walking over a, a babbling stream to get to my cabin, you know.

Yeah, it's magical.

It's magical, right? It's beautiful. I have a, I have a picture of the bridge that leads over to the ritual space in my hallway because I just love looking at it.

It's so beautiful.

Uh, but then I also really enjoy being in this, in cities. I find, I find personally cities, it might be the contrary nature that I have, but I love to find the sacred in cement.

And in subways.

There's a book title in there.

Right? The sacred and submit and subways.

You know, I, I love, I love to find that.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Sounds wonderful.

So, so, you know, we've been talking about the benefits of travel and the ways in which it enriches our enrich, well, I'm, the ways in which I find it enriches my life and enriches my experiences.

Um, and just, uh, I think causes me to stretch and, and grow.

So, you know, travel, good, you know, thumbs up.

Um, then there's, there's, let's talk a little bit about maybe the ethics of travel.

The, the, maybe not thumbs up part of travel.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

To, to summarize, I think that, that traveling is inherently privileged because I have to have money, time and physical ability to do it.

Oh, yes.

So, and it also has an environmental impact, no matter how we do it.

It has an environmental impact, even walking across Spain has an environmental impact because we had to fly there.

And all of that, I have to say, I personally think that it's important for me to recognize that.

And me traveling a few times a year is nothing compared to Jeff Bezos' airplane, private jet.

Or, or his rocket.

Right, or his rocket.

Like, you know, so I want to be mindful, and also I don't think the folks like us who are traveling are the problem.

But it isn't, I do want to be aware of my impact.

We are part, we are not the problem.

Right.

We are part of it.

Yeah.

And privileged in as much as, like you say, to be able to travel, you have to have some things that are not, um, not evenly distributed across our society.

So, you know, I think of, um, some friends of mine who, when they get a vacation, they basically clean their house.

Mm-hmm.

They clean their house.

Um, if they have time, they visit their, they visit with their family, they'll have a party or something like that.

But they don't have, um, the money, um, you know, the money.

And even the outlook, it's not a part of their world view because it's been so, um, it's never, it's rarely been on offer for them.

And so, we, I am privileged because I can get my newsletters that say, you know, seven places for, the seven best places for solo travelers or, you know, you know, the things that air, uh, air flight attendants want people to know.

And, you know, and I can, and that's, um, that's a very privileged place.

That's a place that, um, I didn't recognize it to myself in our outline that, you know, I kind of, I really take for granted.

And I don't consider myself like well off by any stretch of the imagination.

But compared to some people, I'm incredibly well off the fact that I can say I'm going to be going, you know, I'm going to Istanbul in Greece and, uh, and Athens in, in the fall in the, in the winter.

How many people can say that?

You know, well, at least 250 because they're going to be on my ship.

But, um, but yeah, so I, I, I recognize that, um, I am so blessed to be able to, for us to be able to have this conversation, right?

Um, and speaking of the physical aspect of it, one of the reasons I retired when I retired was that I want it to be able to travel before I needed to, you know, factor in caregivers or walkers or things like that.

And so, um, again, I'm very fortunate in that, you know, health issues aside that I'm able to, to walk.

I don't know if I can do that today, but, but, um, but yeah, to be able to do the thing, to do the things, to do the travel things, right?

Yeah.

I also really like to think about colonialism and gentrification.

Oh, girl.

I don't love me saying I like to think about.

I find it important to think about colonialization and gentrification and specifically with displacement and exploitation of the land and of the people and the culture when I travel.

And, um, and I don't, you know, I haven't figured out a way to, I don't know that there is a perfect way to do it.

I don't know, but, um, one time I, I, I had a, I had a, someone that I met at a spiritual intensive,

lived on an island, um, that was near an island that is very popular for people to travel to, that I would say has a lot of colonialization, gentrification, and exploitation of the folks who live there.

And so, I was able to stay at their place on this island that does not offer any sort of touristic infrastructure.

Um, and it was really powerful for me to be there.

And I found myself questioning by me being there, am I contributing, you know, because there was a lot of signs that said like no cruise ships here and stuff like that.

And, and there was like a grocery store that was probably the size of this bedroom, you know, like it was very small.

There, it was very, very, there was, there was nothing for tourism, which I liked, but I was there, you know, as a tourist kind of staying in someone's house, buying food at the local grocer.

Yes, which is what a person who lived there would be doing.

Yes, and I was watching their house. They were not there. So I was, I was doing that.

And, and there was up, there was just this feeling of like, of me being very aware that yes, I was giving my money to the local economies. I was, I was making sure that I did.

I was, um, yeah, I was buying food from the local grocer. I was taking care of the house. I was eating food from the land.

That I was harvesting per the agreements of the person who lived there.

And also, I took a plane, a propeller plane, by the way, like when those little planes.

Yeah, like where they, so they like, they calculated how much we weighed to know where they sat us, because it was like really, it was one of those really small planes.

I'm trying to think where they put me.

Like, girl, you got to sit in the middle.

Fun fact, they put me in up in the front seat next to the pilot.

Oh, that was a real puddle jump.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. There was like four seats, and then the dude flew, who flew, and then I sat next to him.

I had the urge, I had that intense urge to reach out and just press all the buttons, but I didn't, because then we probably would have crashed.

But I wouldn't have had this podcast.

No, no.

Oh my gosh.

Wow. Now that's an experience. How many people have that experience?

Yeah.

And I, and may I suggest something listening to what you just said, I so laud and praise your sensitivity to these issues.

And until we can step out somehow of the capitalist control of the globe of our planet, we will be participating in some sort of way of some sort of exploitation, because that's what capitalism is about.

You know, it's about getting them for some, for some people, getting the most they can out of everybody else so that they can live well.

Right? That's how capitalism works.

And it's, and, and even in the places that might be still resisting it, we're, it's creeping in.

Yeah, it's creeping in. So there's, I'm happy to hear that you're very sensitive to that.

And the more we become sensitive to it, the more maybe we can break the wheel.

Right?

But I'm going to encourage you to not feel at, feel guilty about being a part of it, because unless we die,

or we live like Grizzly Adams and eat Pine Park, we have to be a part of it.

Right?

I read, I read this really great book on the indigenous religions of this area and learned all about it.

Oh, I'd love to hear about that.

It was so cool.

And then, and then I did some research and I found some former sacred locations on that island.

And I, I ended up having to contact, like, people who live there, because it's on their private property.

And, but they, but they're open to it.

It was just like, hey, just let us know you're going to be hiking through a property and you can go to these sites.

Oh, it's so cool.

I, I, I, I, I like hiked on this, on, like, through their private property, which looked like a jungle, because it is.

And, and there's this ruins of, of, I mean, it was, I just, I wept.

Also, they did human sacrifices there.

So like, I was like, that was like kind of like cool to be like, whoa, whoa, whoa.

But, you know, that's there.

And, and I wouldn't have known about it had I not read.

There's no signs.

There's no tourism.

There's no signs.

But because I had read this super thick book on, on this particular area as mythology, I, you know, I learned so much.

And then it was so cool.

It was so neat to go there.

And then to be like, I'm, I'm here and I'm witnessing you.

You're not forgotten.

So.

And there is, I think there's an element of that, particularly when we have a spiritual cast to our travel, where we, we can honor, you know, the, the spirits of those places, you know, coming from a colonial society, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, being a part of the capitalist machine.

But we can still do the thing that, that recognizes and, and understands, you know, this magic that's, the magic that's in anything.

Isn't that, you know, that's in everything that's in our tagline.

So, yeah, yeah.

Do you, do you want to add, I feel like you shared a lot as you reflect this.

No, I'm sorry.

I feel like you shared a lot.

I feel like you shared a lot in, in regards to, in reflecting back my sharing about colonialism and all that stuff.

Was there anything else you would like to add or you've noticed in your travels?

Yeah.

So yes, thank you.

One of the things I, I, I, I'm not sure if this is necessarily answering your question, but one of the things that I try to do as much as possible is kind of figure out.

How the people that are living there are living and then live that way.

And, and I know, sometimes you do it because it's like, I don't know, I don't want to say it's a status thing that you can blend in or whatever.

But, but I feel as if the, the best way that I can be, I can honor the society or honor the place that I'm in is to treat it the way the people who are there would treat that.

And to me, that's very, it's magical.

It's also really, for some reasons, very sexy.

I feel like, I don't know, maybe I'm in with the in crowd or something like that, but I, I think a part of how, so, so one of the things that I do do is look, I try to look into the culture as much as possible.

And, and, and I think that's a big part of it for me.

Also, I, I feel often very liminal you were talking about this liminality earlier about the seasons, but I feel kind of liminal in that, yes, I'm a part of this colonial society, but I didn't choose to be a part of this colonial society.

They yanked my people over here in chains.

And so it's, it's, it's, it's, it's an uneasy fit.

W.E.B. Du Bois talks about the tunas of, of, of black people, you know, that you, you are, you're part of the, of America, you're, you're, you're a, you're a citizen of the country, but then you're also something different.

And you, you're different, you're othered by the culture, but you're also othered by the fact that you have these ties to places that the people in the dominant culture of that place does not, don't have, right?

And so I feel that sometimes when I'm traveling in Europe, because so many of the people in this country reflect that kind of colonial attitude, but many of them were, were refugees.

Or immigrants, right? And, and both. They were both and, right? They were, they were colonists and they were fleeing either persecution or juke or, you know, economic hardship, et cetera.

So it's, I feel that when I go to these other countries and reflect how their culture impacted us in the United States.

And then one thing I haven't explored yet, and this is on my bucket list of things to do, I, there's several places I want to go in Africa.

So I want to go to South Africa. I want to go to West Africa where my, according to ancestry.com, I have some roots. I want to get a Kenya, you know, so there's various places.

And, and then that, that's a whole another can of worms, right? So, and I don't know what that's going to feel like. And I don't know how to, to, to posit what that's going to be like for me.

I'm hoping to go in with an open heart and open mind. But we'll see. Wow. Yeah. Did I answer the question that you asked?

I think so, but I think you also answered it more richly than I would have expected.

Because I talked so much, which is, which is not uncommon for me to experience with you as the richness of your responses.

So, I, I do want to say this does sound like this is a little, this is kind of caddy, but you and I had this experience while we were on the Camino with this person who was very

willing to share how much experience they have on the Camino and how they felt they really wanted us to know how much of an expert they were on the Camino.

And, and yet they refused to speak Spanish. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So much so that when they were ordering in this very small town at this, at like the town's only restaurant, they refused to speak Spanish so much so that you

ended up having to translate for them for this person that's so experienced and telling us how to, yes, how to do our community. Yes. And, and I was, I had really, I had, I was very angry at them.

And also I was, I was disappointed at their profession of their spirituality. Right. Yes. And yet what I would, I would view as not spiritually aligned behavior.

Well, you know, I view that kind of stuff as they basically came and they raped Spain.

They came to Spain because they wanted to have the experience that they wanted to have. There was no give, there was no for play, there was no give or take, there was no consent.

They didn't ask, you know, yeah, they paid their money, right. But they went in with their blinkered kind of, this is the experience I want to have.

It doesn't matter like there's a bunch of Spaniards there. It doesn't matter. There's a bunch of people there that live there.

This is my experience period and that's the way I view it. They're basically coming in and raping the country. Yeah.

They just, they came in and consumed with, and with, yeah, there was, I love the way you say that though that there really wasn't, it didn't feel consensual.

And I can't, you can't say Buenos dias. Right. You know, it's like stop it, stop it.

Yeah, and if you don't know how to speak Spanish, you can point on the menu and order, but she demanded that they speak English to her.

I just, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, I had some feelings around that. Yeah, me too. It was a really powerful moment for me sitting there and seeing that, especially after walking a little bit with them that day.

On the Camino and listening to her profess her, her faith and her expertise at navigating the Camino.

Yes. Yeah.

And that is their experience and that's their, you know, that they have what they want to have.

And I'm sounding very judgey and I'm going to say, yeah, I'm judgey.

I'm judgey of that. That's not okay by me.

I'm judging because the, yes, they're contributing to the economy. I don't mean to say that they're not doing that.

And they're doing the thing that the people there are supporting or therefore, you know, so I get that.

And you are in someone else's country.

The least you can do is say, thank you or order from the menu in their language. It's not, I mean, you know, if you were just there for a couple of days, I get it.

You know, because you've got to, you know, get to wherever you're going to go, but they've done that a number of times.

And they, and they're not stupid.

So it's not like they don't know they didn't hear any Spanish that they eventually figured out meant thank you or hello or whatever.

It's just that they choose not, they, they demand the, the ability to not use it.

They demand.

Yeah, they demand that other people meet, yeah, meet come to them.

So, well said, wow.

Well, you kind of mentioned some future travels that you have.

Would you like to share a little bit more about?

Sure. So, so on the docket for this year, I'm going back to visit family, probably, Junish.

I have a favorite cousin who is going to be turning 86 this year.

So I try to take, I try to be there around her birthday and take her out for her birthday.

So that's going to, and then actually we have a trip.

We're going to for Davis.

Yeah.

Yes, we're doing West Texas.

West Texas.

I will be traveling for one of my music intensives to North Carolina.

And that hopefully I will drive for that as well.

And then in the, I don't know if I'm going to try to do, I was going to do foliage last year, but I got super sick.

I couldn't do that, but I might, I've, I've yet to catch the East Coast foliage.

I haven't done that in 20 or 30, almost 30 years.

Wow.

So, so maybe that in the fall, but definitely in December, my goddaughter and I are going to be taking a cruise from Istanbul to Athens.

And so looking forward to that.

So looking forward to that.

So that's kind of there, but, and I mentioned some things that I want to do eventually, but that's what, that's kind of the definite things.

What about with you?

I think I should have gone first.

I can, I can change this in the end.

But one of the things I do, I didn't, I guess I didn't think about it this way, but one of my big travel plans is with you.

And it is going to West Texas this summer, which I, which is spiritual tourism for us.

Like we are going, we are traveling spiritually with a number of women.

Which women and their beloveds, and then we're going to go out there and be with the land.

And I would say do witchcraft dream awesomeness.

Oh, many of those women have been on our podcast.

Yes, yes.

Many of them have been on our podcast or are good friends of ours.

So I'm really, I'm really excited about that because I've, I've been out to that area twice and hiked Guadalupe Peak, which is the highest peak in Texas.

And, and now I'm realizing I've said this, but like I researched native, native faith traditions of that area and very much had experience is aligned with that.

Which was very strenuous and just the kind where they just like pound the sacred into you.

It was not, it was very a brush.

It was right, but it was very intense.

So I'm excited to go back out there.

And then, and then I mentioned earlier that I'm going to, I'm traveling to a city I've never been to.

I'm traveling to Seattle and I'll be there for a few weeks for this acrobatic intensive.

And we rented, we rented the back half of somebody's house that they have turned into another house.

So at the neighborhood is walkable. So I'll be, I'll be shopping at the local grocery stores.

It's one stop at a 10 minute walk from the light rail and we'll be taking the light rail to the place where we're training.

So I love your planning ability.

Thank you so much.

And you're so amazing with that.

There's coffee shops between our house and the light rail stops. So we'll be able to get coffee in the mornings and I'll be able to fix dinner at the house at night.

So I'm just, I'm thrilled that I'm going to get to be there for so long.

Good, good, excellent.

I'll be exhausted.

But will you be able to add a couple of days before and after so that you can just kind of enjoy the city?

I'm hoping, I'm hoping so.

Is your thing Monday through Friday or is it like seven days a week?

It's, it's seven days a week for a couple of weeks, but we have one day a week off.

Okay.

But my experience is whenever I was at the other places, I used that day to sleep.

But I'm hoping that we can go a few days early.

That I find when I go to conferences because they have these conferences in these wonderful places.

Yeah, and you never see them because you're in the freaking hotel going from session to session.

So I have learned now, well, I've learned two things.

One is like, I don't have to go to all the sessions.

So I just go to the ones that I really, really want to go or like people like I would really be embarrassed to bump into them and not be at the paper.

But then I, I have now learned to add a day or two on either, you know, on either end just so that I can,

I can kind of decompress and then just enjoy the place.

Like just my, I am not one of those, oh, let's, let's, you know, cram as many things as possible.

I would really like to be able to sit in one place for a few hours and people watch, read a book, journal or whatever.

So that allows me to do that.

I really love that we travel well together.

It's really, I don't travel well with everyone.

I have a very particular flavor of travel.

And I really appreciated that even when things went a skew when we were traveling together, I still really enjoyed.

Like we didn't have luggage?

Yeah, yes.

Yes indeed.

Or when my luggage fell apart.

Oh, yes.

And you kind of like started laughing hysterically.

I think you kind of lost it.

I did lose a little bit.

But you put on your big girl panties and you went out to a hardware store.

I did.

In Spanish.

Yes.

And got duct tape.

Yes.

No, I'm going to tell you, I haven't read a whole lot of phrase books in other languages.

But the phrase books I've seen never had.

Where do you carry duct tape?

Yes.

Also, and we were, we were so far into the Camino that they weren't even speaking Spanish anymore.

Oh, got good.

So I didn't even know how to say duct tape, but I had a picture of duct tape.

And I walked into the hardware stores and they weren't even really hardware stores.

But they walked in these holes in the walls that had certain things.

And I pointed at this picture of duct tape.

See, it can be done, right?

You can be, yeah, you can, well, let's not get go back to that.

But yes, yeah.

So, yeah, so would you like to talk about your favorite travel story?

Just really briefly.

Sure.

A super, so a super brief story for me is I was staying on that island.

And I was volunteering at a permaculture farm.

That was reclaiming the land from a capitalist company that had come in and just really...

Model formed.

Oh, absolutely.

There's horrendous things that they did to the people and the land.

So I was volunteering for the day on that farm.

And I was ripping out some of the plastics they had put into the ground.

And the person who, the local person who was running the permaculture farm,

came up to me and told me to rip out a specific type of weed.

And they pointed to the weed and said,

make sure you rip out that type of weed.

And they called the weed a certain name.

And I said, well, why, like, can you tell me more?

I'm like, interested in learning.

And they said, well, that weed is super invasive and kills everything around it.

And I said, and I was like, okay, okay.

And then later that night, whenever we were making dinner, I asked somebody,

does that, does the name of that weed, doesn't it also mean something else?

And they said, yeah.

Yeah, it's what the locals in this area call white people.

And...

There's a metaphor.

Yeah, so it's super invasive and it kills everything around it.

And in that moment, I was so grateful that I had spent the day on my hands and knees,

ripping out plastic out of the ground as a way of...

I don't even know if the word apologizing is even strong enough, but just offering.

There's some redemption.

Yeah, just being like, I am so sorry that people like me,

like you did not deserve to be treated that way.

And if I can remove one piece of plastic out of the ground,

if I can pull out one piece of those weeds,

that weren't supposed to be there in the first place, so...

That's a great story.

I love that.

It was really powerful.

Yeah, I can imagine.

I can imagine.

Would you like to share a story?

Sure.

So this is back in the 80s.

I want to say this.

Okay.

So back in the 80s and I was traveling with a friend,

we rented a car in Opal Cadet.

Don't ever rent one of those cars.

And we did four countries in three weeks.

We started, we flew into Munich.

We were there a few days.

Then we went to Austria.

We were there about five years, you know, a little bit of time.

In Salzburg and Vienna.

And then we went to Venice.

And we were in Venice for a while.

And then like Padua and some of those little towns there.

And then we came back through Switzerland and stayed in Switzerland.

And then ended back up in Germany.

Right.

So really quickly.

So first of all, what was fascinating about it?

This was before the Euro.

Oh, wow.

Yeah.

And these were towns that didn't have...

You know, they were like separate checks.

What are you...

Right.

Yeah.

So at the end of each day, we would be sitting there.

Okay.

Now you paid for that in Deutschmarks.

And then you played...

But I paid for these in Lyra.

Yeah.

So it was...

Oh.

That was pretty hysterical.

Wow.

I met a young man.

He was teenager when I first met him here in the States.

And he was a cousin of a friend.

And we really hit it off.

He came and visited and stayed with us.

He was actually going out to some reservation out in North Dakota eventually.

But he stayed with me for about a week.

But when we went out, he said, yes, you must stay at my house with my mom and me the whole bit.

And so I stayed with them.

And we got there.

It was really, really late.

Because I think we were coming in from Switzerland and there than traffic or whatever.

And when we got there, it was like, oh, you're here.

And he was like, yay, yay.

Okay.

I got to go visit my friend.

So he left.

And it was just his mom and her boyfriend.

Uh-huh.

And they opened a bottle of wine.

And we had a bottle of wine.

Maybe the first bottle was when Sasha was still there.

And then he left.

And then they opened a second bottle of wine.

And we drank that.

And then they opened a third bottle.

And my friend Karen and I, we were sitting there like.

Holy crap.

Yeah.

We were sitting so midway through the third bottle.

We were just sitting there just kind of like staring at each other and kind of like waving from side to side.

Because it had been a long day.

We'd eaten, but we were drinking a lot of wine.

And then while we're sitting there, we heard from the kitchen.

Pop.

Oh, opening another bottle of wine.

And we were looking at each other.

It's like, are you fucking kidding me?

So yeah, that was a wonderful, wonderful, wonderful drink.

Oh.

Mm-hmm.

I love that.

I love that.

So yeah, so travel is fraught and fun.

Mm-hmm.

They're ethical issues with it.

And then for me, it is so, so soul nourishing that.

It's something that I think is going to be an integral part of my life for the rest of the rest, however much longer I'm living.

And it's definitely a really powerful part of my spiritual practice.

Mm-hmm.

And I know that's not a fit for everyone, but for me, it is just at the center of my spiritual practice.

Twinkles.

Yeah.

So tell us a little bit about this poem.

So this poem is by Barbara King the Zolver.

Mm-hmm.

And it's called How to Be Helpful.

I love her.

Yeah.

I'm not familiar.

This is my first poem.

Oh my god.

Well, she writes novels.

Oh, I'm not a novel person.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

You are a very novel.

I'm not a, I am.

I don't read them.

No.

You, you, you live them, but you don't read them.

Correct.

Mm-hmm.

Yes.

Yes.

Okay.

Look.

Oh, I'm sorry.

Did we say, did you say the title?

I did.

Okay.

Look.

You might as well know this device is going to take endless repair.

Rubber cement, rubber bands, tapioca, the square of the hypotenuse, 19th century novels,

sunrise, any of these could be useful.

Also feathers.

The ignition is tricky.

Sometimes you have to stand on an incline where things look possible, or a line you drew

yourself, or the grocery line, making faces at a toddler secretly over his mother's shoulder.

You may have to pop the clutch and run past the evidence, past everyone who is praying

for you, passing all previous records is okay, or passing strains, just not passing it

up.

Or park it and fly by the seat of your pants.

With nothing in the bank, you will still want to take the express.

Tiptoe past the dogs of the apocalypse, a sleep in the shadow of your future.

Pay at the window.

You'll be surprised.

You can pass off hope like a bad check.

You still have time.

That's the thing.

To make it good.

Beautiful poem.

Thank you for choosing that.

Thank you.

And it kind of sums up that feeling of wonder and exploration.

Yeah.

I still have time.

Yeah.

To make it good.

Yeah.

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