09-07-26 Part 6

0:00premiering tonight on walkaway, their YouTube channel at real walkaway on rumble as well at real walkaway tonight 7 p.m. Eastern time. So just as soon as this program ends, you can hop on over to the walkaway channel on rumble and YouTube. That's what I'll be doing. I'm very excited to watch this debate. I didn't get to see it. We didn't get to stay and watch. I was there, but we left before they start arguing and all I've heard is rumors and I apparently was an explosive contest that I'm very excited to see and I encourage our audience of course to support Brandon Strach and his walkaway movement. Another guy that and look, you can trust me or not. I think I've been in this in this sphere for long enough that I would hope that my, you know, instincts are finally honed by this point. I'll tell you some people you hang out with. You just go this guy's the real deal. He's just honest. Trustworthy. He's just upfront about things and those are the people that I want to be associated with Brandon Strach is one of them. You will be able to watch a new documentary by the Tucker Carlson Network at Tucker Carlson dot com.

1:05It is an inexperienced pardon the pun. It is an explosive expose about the Oklahoma City bombing. I had been I got early access to the first episode and it is a masterpiece. It really blew me away with the level of production that they're doing. Of course we always want to encourage people on the right wing to really step up their production level and boy the Tucker Carlson Network is showing you all the way. So I'm very happy to be talking to some of the people involved. But first let's watch the trailer. Again, this comes out tomorrow Tucker Carlson dot com. It's a new documentary about the O.K.C bombing the real story, the unauthorized story. Let's watch two people involved in the production Margaret Roberts is a prize winning investigative journalist and television producer. She graduated from Northwestern University and earned a master's degree with honors and English literature at the University of Chicago. In Washington DC, Roberts was a top editor at the National Journal and Congressional quarterly before moving into television as news director of America's most wanted. In 2010, Roberts edited the prison memoir Deadly Secrets, which is Timothy McVeigh's account of the Oklahoma City bomb plot as told to fellow death row inmate David Hammer, an exclusive source for blowback.

2:13Her book is called Blowback the untold story of the FBI in the Oklahoma City bombing. You can get that on Amazon or wherever books are sold again blowback the untold story of the FBI in the Oklahoma City bombing. You can also follow them on X add blowback book and blowback book dot com in that book serves as the basis for the new investigative documentary from the Tucker Carlson Network, which scooter down he helped to head. He's a filmmaker editor writer and a producer based in Nashville. You can follow him on X at scooter underscore downy and again the website to watch the documentary or just the trailer. You just saw Tucker Carlson dot com with that that long intro. Welcome both of you to the show. Great to be with you Harrison. Well, I'm very happy to have both y'all here. Let me start with Margaret. What got you involved in the Oklahoma City bombing? Did you were you interested in it before you edited Timothy McVase account or is that the first time that you really start looking into this?

3:14Harrison, it was really America's most wanted, which if we we have to sort of go back through the midst of time here to the early 1990s, but I helped launch that show, which was a crime solving juggernaut. Revolutionary television at the time. And as the news director, I worked hand in hand with the FBI on the biggest man hunts in America. So just cutting to your question, how did I get interested? I moved on to LA and a few years later, the bomb, the horrific bomb in Oklahoma City that still stands as America's deadliest domestic. Terror attack exploded in the middle of the week in the middle of the country. And it was from the jump a man hunt that has been largely forgotten until scooters brilliant documentary.

4:21But that's what peaked my interest. I got a little little audio mix up there, but okay, so that's fascinating. Yeah, I mean, I was around, I was around in the 90s. And yeah, America's most wanted was it was a juggernaut. I mean, it was really a cultural phenomenon. And it had because it would have these reenactments of the crime. So got attention to them. But then that attention would turn into spotting of the suspects. And then you would actually solve cases that way. And yeah, so the first episode that I got a little sneak preview on totally mind blowing stuff really well done very emotional, it's a very emotional documentary and scooter. And as you're approaching this topic, obviously, you know, we get accused because we're sort of truth. There's on most things. We don't think we're getting the official story, whether it's the Oklahoma City bombing 9 11 anything in between where we want to look at it with a skeptical eye. And people want to act like that is disrespectful to the victims of these bombings, but nobody saying this was fake. Nobody saying nobody died. I mean, how do you approach that? And how do you manage sort of the balance between, you know, wanting to respect and honor the victims that died from this, but also asking very sort of point to you.

5:30And then you're getting very sort of pointed questions about, you know, what brought all of this about. Was that difficult for you to a tightrope for you to walk? Absolutely. I certainly wanted to honor and respect the victims and the victims families. And I can completely understand if your position is, hey, we got the guys responsible. And I would like to move on and feel a sense that justice has been done. I think that's why I think it's important to remember that the government charged Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols with conspiracy. It was a conspiracy charge to, you know, commit mass murder. And I think that the question is really just how far did the conspiracy extend? Right.

6:30And I think this is a case that's very documented that there were, there were others involved. In fact, in the indictment of Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols, it says, together conspired together with quote others unknown to the grand jury. And so this series is looking into who those people might be. And the first season of the show is this first three episodes. And we're really looking at John Doe 2 and other John Does that were that were cited. That's right. The John Doe 2 and like most cases of, you know, big events like this, you go to the official story and it seems airtight. I mean, they'll tell you they know everything they know how I got from A to B and you really have to like start looking for little cracks and noticing things and eventually start pulling on some strings and the whole thing collapses. I want to ask both y'all and we can start with with Margaret. What was the first thing that what was the chink in the armor? What was the crack that made you go? I don't think we're seeing everything that we're being told. Was there one instance or one event or one John Doe 2? Was that the one that was at the thing that made you start asking questions? What was the first thing that made you ask questions about this event?

7:38Absolutely. So let's for for those who may not know John Doe 2, this was the suspect in the bomb truck with Timothy McVeigh when he delivered that devastating bomb that blew up these nine story federal building in Oklahoma City. 24 eyewitnesses on the ground in Oklahoma City saw John Doe 2 with Timothy McVeigh on the bombing run and surveillance video cameras captured the two of them captured them getting out of the bomb truck before that devastating blast. So as I was saying that this was a man hunt of a a very high profile man hunt from the jump and after Timothy McVeigh was taken into custody two days after the bombing, there was a $2 million reward for the capture of John Doe 2 who quickly disappeared into the myths of, you know, DB Cooper and other.

8:54Other other phantoms of American crime, but that was for me because I had been running coverage of the biggest man hunts in the country alongside the FBI. I watched this and kind of made my headspin. Who is John Doe 2 and where is he? Right. And you have the different, you know, two different police sketches that both looked a lot like each other. I mean, there was a John Doe 2. They said it first and foremost. This is something y'all came up with later on. Kind of a kind of a glaring issue with the official story. This disappearing man scooter was at the same for you. Was it this disappearing second man or what made you want to sink your teeth into this case in particular? I was contacted by a man named Jesse Trinado, who his brother was found dead in his jail cell and in Oklahoma. And Jesse has been trying to solve his brother's murder for over 30 years. And in the process, realize that that there might be a link between the Oklahoma City bombing and his brother's death.

10:06And so Jesse told me his story and I initially, you know, you get it. Well, at the time I was working at Fox with Tucker and you get a lot of cranks calling you. So I initially thought this guy is crazy. But found out he was not. In fact, is a lawyer. And so he's been able to fight this battle to uncover some of those surveillance video tapes, for example, he's been involved in a lawsuit to get those made available to the public. And so that was kind of my first entry point in and then I read a book called aberration in the harland of the real. I doctor when he painting that goes into the subject and then Margaret's book as well later on. And yeah, certainly in John do two, I think is one of the most, you know, can speak you as examples of others unknown. And we go into detail on why the FBI said that they would stop looking for this individual, which they said was a case of mistaken identity. But they were, he was seen by over 24 eyewitnesses on the day of the bombing and more than that.

11:10And the days and weeks leading up to him and they had similar descriptions of this of this man. He had a tattoo on his arm. He had a thick neck, which is a very particular thing to say about somebody. And also that he was dark, and perhaps he was not sometimes he's described as a white man. Sometimes they describe him as American Indian or Pacific, you know, Hawaiian or possibly Middle Eastern or Hispanic. And so with the amount of eyewitness accounts, it's very clear this individual did exist and where he is now is a total mystery. And any I remember from the first episode, he sort of consistently referred to as having a bodybuilding type physique. So it's not like this would be easy to confuse somebody like Timothy McVeigh, who was sort of rail thin. And you don't have multiple people saying the same thing about a person. You know that he was a bodybuilder, really muscular guy. Very, very suspicious and he just sort of disappears. I was I know spoilers. Do we find out who that guy is? I mean, do we ever get an idea? It feels like that is sort of the missing puzzle piece here. If we just had that guy's identification, everything else maybe falls into place. Is this guy just a ghost? Maybe no, maybe no spoilers. But I mean, can I give you, do you have any idea who he is? Do you maybe give me your best guess? Margot, do you know?

12:29Well, let's hitting ahead now. And this is presented very masterfully by scooter as a mystery. So it will that that would be that would be later a later chapter. All right, don't give anything away from my don't give, don't give anything away. I just I walked to the first episode. No, I'm like, I want more. I want to know what comes next started erupt but here's a clue. Harrison, here's a key clue and it involves Jesse Trinado, who scooter was just introducing the brother of this murdered prisoner that eventually the lynch pan of this investigation that I've been involved in. Side by side with Jesse for 20 years is the surveillance videotape I was mentioning before because the FBI collected video of John do two and never never showed it to the jury.

13:29To the trial jury and never showed it to the American public and now has fought tooth and nail for almost a decade and a half against Jesse Trinadoo in a landmark FOIA lawsuit to force the disclosure of that videotape, which could either identify John do two or lead to his identification. Eventually through twists and turns, I will go this far because I think after 20 years, maybe I'm allowed to have this theory. And it is the theory that Jesse Trinadoo espouses as well. It is certainly possible given the pushback from the FBI on that videotape that the second man in the bomb truck was somehow associated with the FBI, some kind of an operative, some kind of an asset.

14:30And that is why perhaps his identity has been hidden all these years. And it is amazing how they can keep these things under wraps, even with all the FOIA laws that have been passed and everything else. I mean, we're we're 30 years on of this attack and we still don't have all the answers, which I guess sort of leads my next question. Scooter, do you think something like the OKC bombing would have happened differently if it happened today? I mean, obviously with social media and thanks spreading around, I mean, how important was sort of the media landscape at the time in order to contain this story. Like if there was a John do to in the Charlie Kirk assassination, we would have never stopped hearing about it. Right. It's a different world today than it was in the 1990s, where if the mainstream media wasn't talking about it, it kind of didn't exist. Did you think about that very much and how do you think it would have played out differently if it would have happened today would have been more difficult for them to have for whoever it was to uphold this off. I think so and I think I think a big part of it would just be that I don't think the public would would buy it at all, you know, from the get go. And you know, I don't think I think at the time, Margaret, you can correct me if I'm wrong here, but I think there was polls that were done at the time that people did believe that there were more that there were others involved mainly because of the

15:46this John do to certainly with all of the video cameras and cell phones, there would be more evidence that would not be able to be suppressed, although if you look at the Charlie Kirk shooting, there's plenty of. Plenty of cell phone videos and there's still, you know, theories, you know, around his death and so. But it doesn't always lead to clarity, you know, more voices. Correct. Correct. Yes, having more video doesn't always yeah exactly lead to more clarity, but I think I think it would be very very good for for John do to not be, you know, have several different cell phone cameras on him pretty pretty quickly. Right. Well, what do you think, Margaret, how would have social media have impacted, you know, the fallout of this attack? I 100% it would like so many of the stories that have been told and retool the magic bullet and JFK and. Onward, this this would not have been accepted, but I will mention.

16:51There were brawls and intimidation heavy intimidation of witnesses and whistleblowers and journalists who tried to bring this story forward that's actually part of the record of my book. I started inside the grand jury before it ever indicted McVeigh Nichols and the others unknown one of the grand jurors went rogue and accused the federal prosecutors of hiding the identity of John do to and. I think that's the judge to investigate and perhaps name a new jury and the judge kicked him off the jury, which he had violated grand jury rules, but never seemingly investigated that that very serious charge of jury tampering and there were other whistleblowers we we don't have time to go into them.

17:54Folks will you know find the details in my book blowback and we'll be learning some of this from scooters documentary, but one more notable example is when Roger Charles, a member of the ABC news team that had done a very high profile story, which was kind of a setup story in front of the McVeigh trial in 1997. He got on to a federal informant who had been embedded inside the bomb plot in this right wing enclave known as Elohim city and had warned her federal handlers that an attack was coming and Oklahoma city was on the short list and they ignored her warnings. ABC under heavy pressure from the justice department killed that story on the day of its scheduled broadcast so it's not like nobody tried to get to the truth, but there was a heavy stone wall from the from the get go this was three months before the temathemic

19:14and then in the case of the Faye trial her name the informant was Carol how and the justice department turned around and prosecuted her on flimsy terror charges criminal charges a jury through them out pretty quickly. Another step to try to tell the story and volunteered to be a witness at temathemic phase trial to tell about overhearing and spying on this plot inside Elohim city and the temathemic and then the trial judge barred her as a witness and said that what she had to say was quote not sufficiently relevant. Wow, yeah, so it's all seems like they were just so much more heavy handed back then I mean they would just straight up threat near or send you a jailer people. I mean a lot of people in this case close to this case or had questions about this case ended up with some very suspicious deaths. I know you'll get into that in the document or two. Can you all say with us for the rest of the hour because I'd love to get into some of the details of OK, see I know our audience is probably well versed on it.

20:18So I like to get into some of the nitty gritty with you off if you can stay. Absolutely fantastic and again the book is called blowback blowback book calm blowback book on X is where you can follow Margaret Roberts and you can of course get the book on Amazon blowback the untold story of the FBI in the Oklahoma city bombing. I love that I mean you're your your record of journalism is obvious to me you know I wasn't trained as a journalist and I just want to jump in on like OK, so you know a John do to what is he and you're like well hold on back up let's let's do the who what win where who is John do to and what did he do. So thank you for that market. I appreciate the the journalist to integrity you're bringing to our for hooker and so people know what the hell we're talking about. But I think our audiences is pretty well aware of what's going on so we'll get into some of the more some of the more details I've got my own theories I'd love to run by y'all absolutely free of course it's even cheaper if you're a VIP member. And you're getting 50% off methalin blue tincture as part of this mega summer sale at ins tonight at midnight central time. So do not wait get your your free goodies and your amazing supplements or merchandise at the Alex Jones store.com help us stay on the air and continue this fight that.

21:26Alex Jones has been fighting since the mid 90s when the events that we're discussing today took place. I guess our Margaret Roberts and scooter downy they worked on the new Tucker Carlson documentary that drops tomorrow. It's called the O K C bomb files and you can watch it at Tucker Carlson dot com. It's based on the book blowback by Margaret Roberts blowback book dot com or you can follow her on X at blowback book and you can get it on Amazon. It's called blowback the untold story of the FBI and the Oklahoma City bombing. Of course our audience. Hopefully if they've done their research, you know, a lot of people sort of woke up during COVID. You got you got decades to go back folks and look over some of the false flags and the mysterious events that have shaped our world and the mid 90s it was Elohim City and Waco and Ruby Ridge and the Oklahoma City bombing. And these things in my opinion were not disconnected. We're not unconnected. We're actually a part of the same sort of overall operation being carried out at the time to demonize the militia movement and gun owners and all this other stuff.

22:30Margaret let me ask you Margaret Roberts the author of blowback book dot com didn't did either of those events come up Ruby Ridge or Waco as you were investigating this. I believe if I remember from the documentary Waco the bombing of Oklahoma City was on the anniversary of the Waco attack right and and that was sort of ostensibly what inspired Timothy McVeigh at least in part to set off the bomb in Oklahoma City. Absolutely. Of the Oklahoma City bombing was two years to the day after that disastrous siege in Texas in Waco ended with, you know, another terrible body count and children as well killed there as they were in the Oklahoma City bombing. The history of, you know, anti government extremism, which was red hot in the early 1990s plays a key role in in the bombing.

23:45I, if I might mention that and this is one of the incredible achievements of Jesse Trinadoot, Scooter introduced the brother of the murdered prisoner. Jesse Trinadoot in his first FOIA lawsuit where he theorized about what was going on in Elohim City uncovered the role of the Southern poverty law center, which I know Alex Jones has covered and, you know, and been entangled with for quite a long time. And it's as, as really a powder keg that is still not fully disclosed because Jesse's lawsuit forced the redacted documents to be disclosed detailing what exactly was the role of the Southern poverty law center, but, but there were definitely informants there inside Elohim City.

24:52So that's a particularly relevant thread, I think Harrison to, you know, to what might interest you about this, the beginnings of this story. Well, absolutely. And I, you know, there's so many threads to this. I totally blanked on. I totally forgotten that one. But of course, and the SPLC is under fire right now and, you know, paying people to go infiltrate groups is nothing new to them. And knowing it for 30 years, which is why Alex was able to sort of predict day, I think, you know, the SPLC is pushing a lot of this racist stuff because he understood, you know, their activities since the mid 90s that that's right. There's so many connections like that that I forget that are still, you know, just as pertinent now as they ever were. To come right to the current moment and, and you have to say, and I have said and, you know, to the appropriate authorities, if you have to look at what was the FBI's role in these more current activities of the SPLC based on what Jesse uncovered that they were working hand and glove together on a surveillance operation.

26:02Of Elohim City in the run up to the Oklahoma City bombing. Yeah. And they've been sort of hand in glove working with each other before that and ever since. And as you, as you were doing researcher or scooter, maybe this is a question for you, because I mean, this documentary, it was obviously a work of passion as somebody who's an editor myself. I mean, you know, I, a lot of times I'll put on a documentary and then I go do something else or I'm working on folding laundry or whatever. This one I could not take my eyes off of. Honestly, it's like the whole thing is this like visual masterpiece and it's so fast paced and as an editor, I'm sitting there going. This took a lot of work. This was a passion project for you. I'm sure whoever edited it. They went above and beyond and obviously going out and getting the interviews that you got no small task. This is a really impressive production overall. As you were going out and researching and talking to people, did you find any new information that you hadn't heard before? Because we just and real quickly, we had a caller last week who had seen stuff before Columbine and was like telling us that he found propane tanks outside of Columbine.

27:07And he's like, I've never told anybody and you think, you know, 30 years on, you're not going to get any more information, but there's stuff out there. Did you, did you discover anything like totally new going out there that you hadn't heard and hadn't been reported anywhere. Or just what struck you as something that was surprising as you as you did the filming for this. Thank you. And yes, it was a labor of love and it's still it's still ongoing. So just so your audience knows these first three episodes are what we're calling season one. And so there will be nine episodes in total and season two and three will be released next year. So I'm not done. I'm still pounding the pavement and trying to pursue leads. I mean, it's 30 years later. And so I do feel a sense of like historical priority to try to get some of these eyewitnesses, you know, on camera, possibly for the last time. I did discover something and this will be, you know, release in episode two. But I don't think it's been put in any books that I've read. Timothy McVeigh stayed at a motel called the Dreamland in Kansas. And he was there for the five days before the bombing.

28:17And there were there was a siding from two individuals. One was called David King and his girlfriend Connie. David King lived at this motel. He lived in room 24. He saw everybody coming in going. He was very close to the room that Timothy McVeigh was staying in. And at the time, the room next to his room 23, no one was supposed to have been occupied during this time. No one was supposed to be there. But his girlfriend Connie came to see him one night and she knocked on the door and the door next door. The room 23 opened. And this individual who resembled John Doe to keep the set out and kind of looked very threatening. And they ran inside and they told the FBI this and the FBI looked into room 23. They discovered that there was no one there. And we found out that the motel kept meticulous phone records of every outgoing call. And to this point, everyone has just said it was a mistaken siding. But I found that there was a phone call that was made from that room when no one was registered there the following evening.

29:29And so I'm actually trying to track down who that call was made to and any more information for what I've been able to find out it was to an individual who was a mechanic and worked on buying and selling kind of junker cars. And if you know anything about the story, that buying and using junker junker cars fits in with the fits in with the bomb plot Timothy McVeigh was pulled over and probably the world's worst getaway vehicle. It was a mercury mark whose gas gauge didn't even work properly and he was pulled over without a license plate and he was speeding. So I don't know what his escape plan was. But if I'm going to be a criminal mastermind, I'm going to make sure that my getaway vehicle has a license plate on it and is not going to like stop working on me as I'm running away from the cops. Yeah, you would think and he got caught like that day, right? Or two days later, I mean, it was like during he was leaving in a cop just pulled him over randomly because he didn't have a license because he was speeding. And so when they ID the guy and start sending out, you know, be on the lookout alerts, they get a call to go, oh, that guy's sitting in jail right now. We have him. We just picked him up.

30:40Margaret, as somebody who worked on America's most wanted, I mean, how how often does that happen? How often does a highly wanted criminal just accidentally get picked up by police? You know, the day or the day after they commit their crime. I mean, that alone, the coincidence, sort of something you got to explain, right? That is just one of the utterly baffo moments of this timeline. And we might add to the craziness of the moment that Timothy McVeigh was well armed. So here comes this trooper to arrest him. And this is 90 minutes after the bomb goes off and 168 people are slaughtered. And he's standing there with a gun. And the question becomes, why didn't he shoot the trooper? Right.

31:41That's just one of the abiding mysteries of that day. In addition to that, Harrison, yeah, there were several. And I would say, I think there were three different eyewitness sightings of the marquee pulled over with the trooper. And there was a brown pickup truck that was parked in front of the marquee that pulled over to the shoulder of the highway as well. And that was reported in the news. And I've seen those archival news broadcasts that talk about that brown pickup truck. And this is coming from local law enforcement sources or I should say law enforcement sources. I'm not sure whether it's local or federal. And you know, we have dash cam video of the of the car, but it's after McVeigh has been arrested. And so there is a mystery regarding this brown pickup truck because a brown pickup truck was seen fleeing from the scene by other eyewitnesses immediately preceding the bombing.

32:47This is something we're going to get into in season three. I'm still looking into the brown pickup truck mystery, but that that every single this this story. The reason why it became a passion project is every single this story will just get your get your grips on you. Everything has a mystery. Nothing is as it seems, even as something as simple as where did Timothy McVeigh's license plate go from, you know, because he didn't have one when he was pulled over. No one has ever found that license plate and there's several different stories about what happened to it from Terry Nichols account in McVeigh. So there's so much to cover. That's why I've had to I've had to do it in nine episodes just to even begin to crack the surface of the story. Yeah. And that that's been my experience studying it as well. And even just just showing some of the images that the crew is pulling up some of the archival stuff or some of the stuff from Alex Jones's old documentaries. And you know, looking at some of this stuff, the sheep dipping right the fact that they say that Timothy McVeigh left the army, but then he's on video still in the army after that point.

33:49Did you get into that much Margaret and your investigation? Do you think he was sheep dipped and for journalistic integrity to explain to set the table here. You know, the idea that you would pretend that somebody left the army pretend they're no longer in an intelligence service when in fact they're still taking orders, but they're doing it in a civilian position, right? Something along those lines. Did you look into that and what did you discover about Timothy McVeigh's military career? That's a thread and Scooter mentioned Wendy painting her brilliant book, aberration in the heartland of the real, which is a nod to Don Delillo's book Libra, a title. She, her, the subtitle of Wendy's book is the secret lives of Timothy McVeigh and she covers the military connection of Timothy McVeigh better than anybody else. I did not follow the thread that you're referencing specifically about the him being seen as a soldier after he left.

34:59That's a rabbit hole that I haven't found to be convincing, but I also didn't go far enough down it to, you know, to make a judgment. So I don't know, but this idea of the sheep dipping has has some credibility in my opinion and Timothy McVeigh wrote his sister a letter in which he described being pulled out of special for his special forces try out and into a secret government squad, where he was going to be doing covert operations. And again, to touch on Wendy's research, she discovered documentation from his first attorneys before Stephen Jones, who is a key figure in Scooter's documentary.

36:03But the first lawyers who represented McVeigh very briefly reported that he told them that he was working for the government. So those are, you know, that's a, that was a pivotal moment, his first interview with his attorneys to be and that was is a narrative that just vanishes. So I think it deserves some credibility. Yeah, and I mean, that is the struggle with investigating this stuff. You kind of have to know what to, what to focus on and what's, you know, important, what's not. And of course, I think now it's more common, you know, back then as we were talking about, you know, they would just sort of intimidate people, right? I mean, you got stories they go, yes, some dude at, you know, with a badge came up and said, stop following this or will kill you. I mean, it was pretty much like, you know, they were because you didn't have social media. If you couldn't get on the local news, nobody would know your friends and family maybe, but, you know, what are they going to do? So back then, you know, sort of more straightforward. Now it feels as though if they want to cover something up, they have to just create a bunch of theories that aren't real to distract people and sort of you have the controlled opposition tactics being taken. I wonder, was there anything that you think is not a good theory? Like is there anything you discover that people are really convinced of this happened and you just go, no, I don't believe that any theories. You just totally disregard when it comes to to the O.K.C. bombing. I don't know if that might be a hard question to answer, but is there anything that you heard from people that you just go, no, that's not the case that that didn't happen scooter. When you were doing the research, was there anything?

37:29You just sort of went, that's a little too far for me. I don't think it was space lasers or whatever it is. Yeah, Timmy Thunves is not an alien. I think I'm pretty firmly in that. No, I, you know, I have tried to avoid theorizing about almost anything. I have my own suspicions, but like I, as far as the documentary goes, I've really tried to just be evidence based and let the audience, you know, do their own thing. I think at the last episode, I'm going to present what are the potential theories involved. But I would say that the government's theory, I mean, from what I've said, the least conspiratorial theory on, for example, why they didn't pursue John Doe 2 is that the Justice Department was wanting to be constrained. They had their guys and they wanted to get them, they wanted to get them convicted. And so they didn't want the investigation to become sprawled. And I think at one point they had on their office, do not confuse the case with clutter. So that's, that's almost the least conspiratorial theory. And then beyond that, I'm remaining neutral at this point and trying to just, you know, be open minded.

38:47I think I'm interested to think too is a lot of these stories, for example, about McVeigh being sheep debt. Every, all these stories about McVeigh come from McVeigh himself. He is the origin of all these stories about himself. And one of the things that I found to be very interesting and we cover this in the first episode and the other and the next two Timothy McVeigh's story, while he was in prison, changed according to the government documents that he was using. So his story would become closer and closer to whatever the government said the story was after he would read the FBI, 302 interview documents, he would then change his story. So as one example, we get into this in episode two, the purchase of the fertilizer that was used in the bomb. The man who sold the fertilizer to Terry Nichols who was calling himself Mike Havens, he said that there was a passenger in the car while he was loading the fertilizer and the truck.

39:52And that the passenger was not to meet with McVeigh. Well, McVeigh had told his attorney Stephen Jones first that, oh Terry Nichols dropped me off at the park. But then when he read this document, he said, oh no, I was there. I was me. And Jones is like, well, the guy says it wasn't you. No, no, it was me. So I think I feel pretty firm to say that one of the defense investigators theories was that Timothy McVeigh was the willing fall guy that he did not, he wanted to protect the identities of his co conspirators. And so he was willing to go down with the team. And then he went down as the martyr. Yeah, no, no easy answers to any of this. I mean, what a tangled web we weave, right? And yeah, it does seem like every little part of this. Go ahead. Harrison, sorry, just to jump in and with a nod to the power of scooters work here, presenting this as a mystery.

40:58It's not telling it's it's it's a retelling of a story that America thought it knew like the back of its hand. But we didn't know this story because of the way the story has been steered. And so now we're setting sail again to investigate what really happened. And just to connect back to where we started about the question about social media and could this could this happen today. I think we also need to look at the traditional role of journalism. And when I saw Tucker's first announcement where he says out of the gate, we are reopening the case. This is thrilling to those of us who have been working on this case for 20 years because that's what we've we've been waiting for. That's what we've.

42:00And there this can point towards action. Social media still has to find its way. I believe to connect to having an impact, right? But this documentary as it's going out and as Tucker says, presenting the evidence. We're not going to tell you what happened. We're going to present the evidence. This is going to be a powerful brief that could wake up the government entities from Congress to the courts to the Department of Justice to get back on the horse and find out disclosed what really happened in America's deadliest domestic terror attack. And it's almost like we have there's a constant day loose of stuff we were trying to deal with on a daily basis, but it's almost like there's this backlog of 30 years of things that the government's done or misinterpreted or misport trade to people.

43:06And so, you know, it's kind of like can we you also want to start the beginning and go look at the tactics they use, look at the way they employ it, why are they doing this? I mean, it can really inform you about what's going on today. And I remember back in probably 2020, I was doing research about vaccines and vaccine injuries. And I came upon this story that there was a vaccine that they gave I think it was an anthrax vaccine that they gave to the troops that went over to fight the first goal for against Saddam Hussein. And there were a lot of vaccine injuries and there was a giant trial and you know, they were suing over it and all those files happened to be at the Alfred P. Murrow building and it all disappeared in a puff of smoke. So there's stuff like that that I'm like, you know, what's the truth behind that? We know much time, but I wish we could get into that stuff. Can you tell me quickly, does that does that appear at all? If you all looked into that or is that, you know, come up in the in the documentary? Well, I'll say as to the idea that they did an explosion to get rid of documents. I've never I never put much credence in that talking, you know, I will debunk that one in my opinion because it just seems like you could just take the documents out. I don't think you need to kill 160.

44:16Yeah, all right. Yeah, it's a good point. But you know, there it is the one of the issues with this case is there's tens of thousands of interviews that were done so many documents. It's the biggest crime scene in American history. And whenever you do that, you're going to be exposing a lot of things that may not even be related to the bombing that still might be nefarious. Right. And so there's there's kind of what's the what's the term where it's leading you down, you know, a wrong path. A red herring. Yeah, a red herring. Yeah, there's a lot of red herring in this case too.