03-13-26_FRIDAY_6AM

0:00This hour of the Bill Meyers Show podcast is proudly sponsored by Clouzer Drilling. They've been leading the way in Southern Oregon well drilling for more than 50 years. Fight out more about them at Clouzer Drilling dot com. Now more with Bill Meyers. Love the minutes after six, join the conversation, seven seven, okay, we need my email bill at Bill Meyers Show dot com. We have the Facebook dot com slash Bill Meyers show feed up. Yes, there was a internet problem that was knocking out some of the Facebook deal. And a lot of people are writing me, what about this? Well, you know, we do have a podcast, you know, you can watch it. The streaming was still working online too, but just not the the Facebook anyway. But anyway, it's back, we're back. And so now you can see and watch and however you end up getting to the show, we're really happy to have you in here. And happy to take your calls, find your phone, Friday, of course. As always, Dr. Kurt Macelle is going to join me after the bottom of the hour from a do know harm medicine and it's it's interesting.

1:00You know, you get those ads, you get the email ads for and maybe online ads. Maybe when you're, you know, poking around and you'll see these, these ads for online pharmacies. Well, it appears that the whole transgender deal that there are a bunch of kids that are now getting the hormones on the slide, you know, parents don't know about this. Doctors don't know about this because you know, there's just a whole lot of research now that's just saying this is not a great idea. And so we have kids that are self self diagnosing and going out and getting the gender changing hormones and the drugs and they're, you know, this is where the black market is going. Of course, I'm sure that, you know, you probably have the governor of organ that's that's probably investing in these companies and saying, hey, listen, the more trans kids that we have the better, the fewer breeders we have, the better, it's probably all about carbon and population drop. I, you start to wonder about that sometimes, seriously, but we're going to talk with a

2:01doctor. Macelle about this because this has been a bone of contention. They're fighting this stuff all the time. And Martin Mallier is going to join me. Martin is a president of the Christian action network and he wrote a piece. I thought it was pretty self or a thought provoking rather. And it was called AI doesn't need to hate us in order to turn on us. I'm curious to hear what he has to say about that. But I was watching, I wanted to tell you, I was watching a video the other day of an online music guy that I like. He's a music producer, musician and maybe you've watched him on YouTube when he's other places, Rick Biotto, Rick Miotto and a great guy. And I've learned so much about classic rock and new music and things like that. And he talks with musicians all the time. And I find it a really nice pala cleanser from the regular political stuff, but he had a video that I had not considered the other day because you know, we're all kind of many

3:04people and I even I, I use AI to, I think everybody uses AI to one extent or another. And then sometimes you know, search capabilities on the various computers. But this whole idea that everybody is going to invest trillions of dollars into AI and then everyone's going to get trillions of dollars of wealth generated by this. Rick, who is a musician guy, kind of called BS on it the other day. And he demonstrated something that that I was not really aware of all that much because I haven't looked into the large language models and, and, and the actual inner workings of the machine, so to speak. But what Rick said was quite thought provoking what Rick said is listen, I went and, um, and I ended up going online and you can actually download these large language models. There are websites where you can, in essence, download the big AI brain, the brain software

4:11to your computer. And then he ended up putting an interface over it, put like a chatbot interface over it or something, some other software. And he was able to demonstrate that, you know, starts asking a question is just like for everything else. And it starts. Our computers, our individual computers are now strong enough and, and, and, and deep enough that they can run the large language models themselves on the computer itself. So we could be cruising for a bruise in, you know, how people have talked about the AI bubble. And remember, there was the Chinese AI now, this was not a Chinese AI that that Rick Biotto had downloaded and putting this computer, but it was, you know, these were, you know, American large language models brought in and the thing is he's running it on the machine. It's not even connected to the internet in this whole idea that we're going to invest trillions upon trillions upon trillions of dollars into tons of power plants so that we

5:14can have tons of data centers with very expensive, with very expensive servers and, uh, internet nodes and that this is how everyone's going to be doing the wealth building and that it's still going to be a surveilled and centrally, uh, base kind of thing. He says, no, you don't have to do that at all. You can actually run it on your device, not connected to the internet and then of course it'll probably get better. And so you're not sharing your data. And what his observation was is that what he sees is AI and I thought this was interesting. He said, well, I see his AI. He said, is that it's going to be stuff that you're doing when you need it in your device rather than plugging into the hive mind. That's kind of what he was getting at. And he said, and he kind of made it an analogy to when he was a music producer back in the 1990s and you had to have a three quarters of a million dollar studio with big mixer boards

6:14and big rooms and lots of equipment and lots of people to run the equipment. And it would cost two to three thousand dollars a day for a music band to come in and you had to have the engineer there and then the music company got its cut and the music instrument. People got their cut of the record industry and that, well, that went away. Very few people are using the three quarters of a million dollars studio model anymore. And it's down now to pro tools and a laptop and musical inner and musical interfaces or electronic interfaces to get music into a laptop into a computer and you're doing it for a few thousand dollars. And when he demonstrated on one of his music computers that he was just running the AI model locally, no internet connected at all, it did kind of make me wonder, gee, well, are we selling ourselves a bill of goods that, you know, you have to go and get all these

7:15insanely expensive chips, insanely expensive power plants, insanely expensive data centers everywhere. Is that really the future? And so he's saying he's thinking that, you know, this whole idea that you're, you're going to build up all of these centralized data centers may not necessarily be the way that it goes over time. I thought I was very thought provoking and he compares it once again to the old studio system, the old studio, the way you used to have to record music. And of course, that model is just completely trash now because it's about a heck, I can record music at home and in my home studio with just a laptop and an interface, you know, just a few hundred bucks and then you could get the software. So he says he thinks that's where it may be going. Now I'm sure that government and controlling authorities much prefer the idea of us all plugging into hive minds because we're a lot easier to surveil at that point. Maybe it'll be a combination of both. I don't know, but I thought that was an interesting alternative way at looking at the

8:19AI. In other words, we will have the AI in our systems under our control, not essentially often in some server farm that that meta or or X or anthropic or any of these other places owns and is is melting us for it. I just thought there was a very interesting way of looking at it. So maybe that's better. Okay. Anyway, but I'll be talking a little bit about that with Martin Moyer and getting his take on AI, too. It's always an interesting thing. We got to look at this because it is important, all righty now that some of our local headlines here at a talent residents searched yesterday morning and looking for 30 pictures. Yeah, kitty porn, that kind of thing. Child sex abuse materials are thinking we're uploaded from a talent home. Now, now the one thing I don't know is that this was on Taylor Street, Taylor Street at home in talent and Jackson County Sheriff's reported is, could it be, I'm just thinking

9:22about that, that sex offender that was in the talent library, now they know it is about that. They're not saying anything about that. I'm not saying he is, but you couldn't help but remember that the guy in the talent library that got the library director fired because of looking at the pictures of little kids on the talent library. Anyway, someone's being investigated right now. They were doing a lot of talk about that and no surprise about this Mount Ashland closing for the winter season doing too low snow. I don't think you're really surprised about that. This is one that I saw a study came out this week here, promises made, promises kept. I know that the University Washington Center for Human Rights study that was released this week. Of course, they're releasing the information trying to raise alarm, raising alarm about illegal aliens, right? But they released a study this week that immigration enforcement in southern Oregon and in the

10:25state of Oregon and Washington, soaring to historic levels about 1200 illegal aliens, just under 1200 illegal aliens were arrested in the state of Oregon between October and December last year, that's just way above anything the Biden administration ever did. And there were about 950 illegal aliens arrested in the state of Washington. And of course, they're raising the alarm. I'm thinking, no, promises made, promises kept with the president Trump, but just prepare for reports on that that are going to be, oh, oh, it's, and then more kids over at Oak the old middle school, cutting class to, you know, either today or some other day, going, you know, we support immigrants. No, immigrants, immigrants or illegal process kids, they don't understand that. But of course, I don't know if I have a feeling there's a lot of illegal immigrant illegal alien sympathizers in that particular neighborhood. There's just a lot of it.

11:25I think it's demographics, that kind of thing. K OBI reporting that MPD officers said he had some shots fired in West Medford on Wednesday. Didn't hear about this until just this morning when I looked at that story, but apparently nobody heard, but looks like a dry by white, lowered pickup truck leaving the area, West eight street Hamilton street, Wednesday and vehicle matching that description stopped by officers and they're by resident, couple people detained more believed to be involved. They're still investigating that. And yeah, probably gang related, you can kind of figure. Another story that you can, well, actually two stories that you can say and their Muslims. Yeah. Yeah. You know, the Old Dominion University in Virginia shooting and one was killed, two injured and the gunmen dead right there, Mohammed Baylor Jala. And he was convicted of trying to provide help to ISIS in 2016, pleading guilty.

12:29And he was still in the streets apparently. Well, he's dead now and you end up having the ROTC, ROTC students stepping in. They subdued and they killed him while waiting for cops to show up there. Yeah, they weren't, they weren't messing around. And there was the temple Israel synagogue attack in Michigan, definitely Muslim once again, not that far from dear bornistan. This is a problem. And yep, gum and ran tips chase truck into the West Bloomfield township synagogue Thursday afternoon, open fire and security guards made him D RT dead right there. A lot who Akbar did the whole thing and yeah. And just minor injuries inside the temple. Fortunately, but the dirt bag dead right there and sad is it is to have that attack occur. It's a good outcome when the dead right there quotient ends up or method ends up being applied. Okay. 25 minutes after six, this is the Bill Meyer show Oregon truck and auto authority is celebrating

13:34its 20 year anniversary as the Rogue Valley's car truck Jeep and SUV accessory upfit headquarters. Specializing in spray on bedliners, vehicle undercoding, tonneau covers and the largest selection of fiberglass, commercial and metal canopies in the area. Running boards, nerf bars, bumpers, winches and LED lighting are also on the menu, along with hitches, decked drawer systems and bed slides too. Come see Oregon truck and auto authority today and get your vehicle ready for your next adventure. Welcome back to take a guess. Okay, we're now entering the speed round. Where's that crowd noise coming from? First question. What makes it existing building pop even more when getting a new metal roof from Fontana Roofing? Wait a minute. Five seconds. No, new sighting from Fontana Roofing. Yes. Next question. Most common phrase when Fontana installs new sighting and a roof on an existing building. Uh, it looks like a new building. Correct. Also, this building looks fantastic would have been acceptable. Final question for the last donut in the break room.

14:36In addition to a 40 year warranty, along with 14 configurations, including the ever-popular wood, grain, board and baton style, how many sighting color coatings are available in total? 25? Oh, sorry. That is incorrect. We were looking for 26. We do however have a nice piece of advice as a consolation prize. Visit FontanaRoofing.com. Correct. This is Bread Bear. Join me this and every Sunday for the Bread Bear Show. We'll combine the must-listen-to-all-star panel where we focus on the most important topics on the minds of Americans with a rotating panel of experts, as well as common ground where I sit down with lawmakers, business leaders and public figures to find common ground on issues of the day in a polarized world. The Bread Bear Show, a great way to stay informed. Sunday mornings at 8, a news talk, 106-3, K-M-E-D. I'm Steve from Skypark Insurance and I'm on K-M-E-D. 627, Thompson Talent Tom, you have a different take on the AI thing.

15:41I was remarking on a video I watched with Rick Biotto the other day, good music director guy. He's thinking that this whole thing of building up the data center AI model with a trillions of dollars in investment will not necessarily be the workout that they're thinking right now. What do you have on that? What's your take? Well, I'm not a takey, but my suspicion is that what's going on with all this different levels of generations of Wi-Fi, 4, 3, 4, 5, 6, whatever, I think what they're trying to do with all that is make the super surveillance society. Oh, I agree. Oh, I absolutely agree with you. That's what whole 5G and 6G's about the Internet of Things, so everything's connected in one level or another. I think the goal is to have the same kind of society that's in China where the government

16:42can absolutely monitor everything you're doing. I think they're heading, they want to have a digital dollar so that they can totally control you economically. I really think that's what the goal is and what's particularly with Iran we're heading towards the major bankruptcy and so forth. I think that's what's kind of going on, the super surveillance society. Well, no, I will agree with you. I have no doubt that that is what people would like to do. That is what when I'm saying people, let me just call it. I shouldn't call them people, the lizard people that are in higher with the little reptilian brains that are saying, hey, we will be the, we will be on the top of this food chain and we will be, we will be taxing the tax mules and farming their fear and all the rest of it. Yeah, I get that. That is, that is true that I do believe that is the goal of some of those people, okay?

17:43All right. But what I'm saying though is that if it, if you end up finding out then and if more people start figuring out that you don't need to be plugged into their hive to do it, isn't that kind of cutting the knees out from underneath a number of these nefarious types? That's a question you can ask the thought because what you're talking about it seems to be it's just a whole bunch of stored information, how to access it. But I'm saying that you're needing to five and six G and so forth to do a real time immediate surveillance of what those nasty people are up to with their freedom and so forth. Yeah. You think we're complaining about having a license plate readers around town waiting until it's the entire internet of things and then well, like I was joking yesterday, with the woman from Oregon for safer technology, remember Kelly Marketouli, who was on, who was on yesterday. I say, yeah, do you really need to have your refrigerator accessing your grocery account

18:50and ordering milk when you need that, right? I mean, yeah. Well, that's, that's kind of the phony selling point to that AI and five and six G has been introduced. You know, you'd be able to download your video games or whatever and in two seconds instead of 20 seconds. I don't know. The whole thing. I smell. Yeah. Yeah. You're on, you're on, your only fans porn gets to you that much quicker. You know, yeah. You got it. Yeah. You got it. You got to cover there. I want to say one real quick thing. I agree with Lewis yesterday when he said he thought that Krump is being blackmailed. I would call it probably threatened his family himself and everyone and that's why the evasion of Iran is happening. You think it was actually a threat. You think that that what that that design it, the Zionist and Israel in charge of that of a lot of that over there. Do you think that they had that kind of control over our president, really? Well, I think the murder or Charlie Kirk, I think the facade took him out and I think

19:54the Knit and Yahoo came to, you know, Crumps and said they've had several meetings like that. I told him, Hey, if you want to live, you know, we can take you out. We showed you what we can do with Charlie and if you want, you were going to go and take over Iran or invade Iran or not just you, but your family, how about your son? I think that's what's going on with Krump. I think he's being blackmailed or blackmail is not the right word. It's being extorted. It's being threatened. That's my guess on it. Okay. So everything is just the Godfather in Washington, DC. I'm going to make him an offer. He can't refuse. Right. Okay. It's an interesting very don't know if I quite by Tom, but I appreciate you sharing it. Okay. Thanks for coming. As always, it will catch up on the rest of the news here in just a moment. And then about those online pharmacies, it may be backdoor away for kids to go out there and get the tranny hormones, all the drugs, all those transgender things, even

20:56if parents don't want them to. We'll talk about that. Dr. Kermit Shelley joins me in a couple of minutes. Saving money has never been easier. At MyOregonEdeals.com, you can purchase gift cards and gift certificates at a discounted price and save big money at your favorite local businesses. From dining to shopping and so much more, every deal helps your dollar go further. MyOregonEdeals.com is perfect for gift giving as well. Best of all, your gift cards are shipped right to your mailbox. New offers are added often, so check back frequently. Get money back in your pocket by visiting MyOregonEdeals.com and start saving today. All right. Question, are you a fraud paying American? You know, one in four tax paying Americans have been a victim of identity fraud. Now, with life lock, if your identity stolen, they will fix it guaranteed or your money back. Last year, billions of refunds were stolen. Now, could be from your salary or overtime or a second job. It's gone. But this year, you do not need to stay a victim, save up to 40% off your first year, use

21:58the promo code Hannity. Just go to lifelock.com today. KMED news. Here's what's going on, Jackson County sheriffs and other local law enforcement searching a residence on Taylor Street in talent early yesterday morning. There was evidence that child sex abuse materials were uploaded to the internet from that home. Officers interviewing possible witnesses seized a number of electronic devices. They're not saying much more about the case at this time. They don't hear this very often. A number of taxpayers asking the cash strapped Jackson County fire district five to enact a temporary tax increase. And the district said, no, thanks. Daily courier reports the tax increase was on the agenda Tuesday. Several board members say they don't feel good about asking for more money until more is known about pending mitigation and legal costs. They can't talk about in public right now. Oregon health authority raising the alarm about possible measles exposure at a wincoed grocery store in Gresham, not in Southern Oregon, want to make that clear, but OHA is saying anyone who was in the Gresham winco store last Saturday between two and five should

23:00get checked out by a doctor and let him know about a possible exposure to measles. A University of Washington Center for human rights study released this week shows that immigration enforcement saw to historic levels in our state between October and December last year. Most under 1200 illegal aliens were detained in the state of Oregon, 951 arrested in Washington. Oregon's greatest increase in arrests happening mostly in the Portland metro area and Marion County. And no surprise, but they're making it official at Mount Ashland closing for the winter season due to low snow. Bill Meyer K and the D news. I'm Taylor Riggs and this is the Fox business report. The economy expanded at the end of last year, but at a cooler pace than first reported that gross domestic product for the fourth quarter was revised to growth of seven tenths of a percent. Inflation readings for January are mostly in line with forecasts. The PCE price index rose three tenths of a percent is expected for the year the PCE rose to point eight percent up three point one percent excluding food and energy up slightly

24:05from the three percent in December also matching the forecast. After spending rose more than expected in January up four tenths of a percent incomes were also up four tenths of a percent and durable goods orders for expensive manufactured things were flat in January crude oil prices have moderated from yesterday's highs. That's your Fox business report. I'm Jenny Koselda invested in you. Best investments today feel like second jobs real estate you're a landlord stocks you're a day trader crypto you're a full-time researcher you've got a life to live your investment should help you live it that's why more Americans are choosing gold noble gold is help thousands protect their future with real physical gold they said noble gold investments dot com to get your free wealth protection kit that's noble gold investments dot com best performance may not be indicative of future results investing in precious metals including gold involves risks consult with your tax attorney or financial professional before making an investment decision this is Bill Meyer with KMED programming note that

25:09if you miss one of my show is or you want to go back and listen again I always archive about three months of my show at Bill Meyer show dot com and KMED dot com you can search by taking the topic download the hour of your choice and you can share them too Bill Meyer show podcast are made possible by Clouzer drilling so please visit Bill Meyer show dot com and KMED dot com for podcast and to find out more about our sponsor Clouzer drilling that simple visit clouzer drilling dot com the bill Meyer show is on news talk one oh six three KMED six thirty seven they are proud they have Dr. Kirk to sell you back on me talking quite frequently from a do no harm do no harm medicine dot o rg dr welcome back and before we move forward can you tell us what do no harm medicine is all about what's your main mission is all about and dig into that then we'll talk about this latest reports you put out absolutely and thanks bill for having me on again now so do no harm is an organization we have over fifty thousand members and we're focused on the health care space particularly

26:09getting identity politics out of medicine and keeping kids safe from radical gender ideology and this is and this is a really really big deal and the challenge that we face here in the state of Oregon is that as the rest of the world has been backing away from this and even over in England there's a hey we got stop this this is just we're finding really bad things what they've discovered is that the gender dysphoria and the mental illness that could be connected with it and that's the way it used to be considered being a mental illness and what has been happening today though is that the treatment has been to well gender affirming care in other words if you have this mental illness that you are a woman trapped in a man's body we start cutting parts and adding parts and then saying that'll fix you and that just hasn't been working I guess that prefer it certainly it certainly hasn't especially for for children when we look at the evidence when we look at the data it's just not there in fact the NHS from England just released additional data and that caused them to actually say we're going to stop any new prescriptions for

27:13cross sex hormones in kids as a result of the additional data that keeps coming out and when you look at these systematic reviews it shows that there's very low certainty evidence for any degree of benefit and significant harms and we know the impact on bones a bone mineral density that puberty blockers can have we know the impact on fertility where unfortunately these children end up as infertile adults we know the impact in terms of cardiovascular health metabolic syndrome these are these are come with significant risk significant adverse effects and and it's so important that we make sure that we're keeping kids safe from these hormones and yet at the same time the state of Oregon legislature dispassing more laws recently that is almost you know doubling and tripling down Oregon is one of these outliers are there any other states that are doing of anything more of what is being proven not to work everywhere else you know I mean unfortunately I mean you look at states like California Oregon Washington New York we have the attorney general there in New York trying to force the hospital to reestablish it's it's good gender clinic to

28:18give out these medicines and such so unfortunately and many of the clinical blue states we we see this continuing to occur and I think it's just so important again that the federal government continues the pressure to look at the data and look at the literature and and just the reality that we're harming kids and that there are other treatments that we can use as in psychotherapy we can explore the source of confusion and distress that a kid may have we can help strengthen their self-esteem we can help them feel comfortable with biologic reality and recognize that puberty can be an uncomfortable time for for kids but how can we get through that without putting kids on a pipeline to medications and surgeries we we've really got a look at what we need to do to help the mental health of these children as opposed to putting them on this fast track for surgeries and medications Dr. Macelli I wanted to raise a cautionary tone about this before we dig into your latest report and the reason is there any evidence though that the possibility of environmental exposure to endocrine disruptors there's been a lot of conversation about that that maybe even

29:21our environmental situation in this world may be driving some of this or is all of it a mental illness have you looked into that at all or any a conversation about that within your group that's not something that we've been specifically focused on we've been mostly focused on the individuals that have been impacted by this gender-affirming procedure and frankly this seems to be very much a social contagion in its recent phenomenon more social than an environmental is what you believe well okay certainly when you when you look back you know decades ago this was an extraordinarily rare illness when it was diagnosed as gender identity disorder for instance in fact if you look at the diagnostics it's a manual that psychiatry sees the incidence is almost one in a hundred thousand or or just extraordinarily low numbers and and that has radically changed certainly in the past ten years especially when we look at adolescent girls who have really been the driver so to speak of the more recent diagnoses typically this was seen in boys who wanted to be girls as opposed to mostly what we've seen now or these adolescent girls who

30:25want to be boys or okay so that's the indicator and it's just all of a sudden just boom up we go just females or mostly for mostly that's the primary driver in the past ten years and it seems to be this again social contagion phenomenon certainly associated with social media and the rise of the communication and the pressures that that has and granted there are other factors as well so I certainly don't want to oversimplify but but that is has been a a a main spark in the recent ten years when we look at this this phenomenon okay dr. macelly i want to talk about this new report here it's called the lack of barriers to minors ordering cross sex hormones online so what I'm wondering here is is this a kind of an indicator that the online pharmacy world and and normally you know you'll get those ads and I say you know hey generic viagra online you know two cents a pill you know that kind of thing is this branching out into the sex inhibiting or sex changing hormone world here what's the story I'd like to hear more absolutely and and we are

31:29concerned about the fact that they don't appear to be many guardrails really preventing kids from from getting these cross sex hormones online again these are vulnerable kids right these are kids who are struggling they're confused we we already talked about the fact that there's other psychotherapy and interventions that we can use and unfortunately when they're in the state of of confusion and difficulty they may very well go online and they may find forums on reddit or websites such as some of the ones that we we mentioned in the report and on those sites some of them will will actually share with kids how to access hormones online how to self administer cross sex hormones and and folks can then go to those website for these home brewers and the like and so kind of I do it yourself transgender method I guess is what it is and that's what I'm unfortunately it has become and many of these pharmacies are overseas and and to even knows what you might even be getting first of all but but secondly it's certainly a concern that for many of them it doesn't appear that even you have prescription you don't even necessarily need to verify your age and it's it's highly highly concerning what what folks may end up doing in this case and and again

32:36we've really got a securities kids to good quality treatments this do it yourself is truly dangerous what are the names of the types of drugs that are used anything that we would recognize if we saw it in a if we found some with a child or someone that you know just curious yeah and oftentimes the ones that we saw were mostly estrogen type compounds so sometimes these they're medications that perhaps are are used for other indications as well and in in terms of folks who might be postmenopausal and that sort of thing but oh yes so so medication that would help with hot flashes or those those exactly exactly exactly and that was primarily what we saw we didn't see as much in the way of testosterone and and granted testosterone is even further regulated as it's a controlled substance with DEA implications so that would certainly pose more risk to an online pharmacy if they were doing something in a you know a less than legal manner so to speak so it was mostly estrogen based compounds that we were seeing online which could certainly if if if you were a boy who desires to have female characteristics without these

33:39guardrails without needing a prescription or such you may end up going online and and getting your estrogen potentially from Thailand to Mexico or wherever I remember reading other stories over the years and I don't know if you can if you can affirm this or to say it's it's not true that the the whole problem of just taking a male and then changing the hormones around or taking a female and changing the hormones around is that your sex at birth is a big determinant on what your body needs the bodies are very different in many ways it's not just a human that you can just just throw some some different hormones on it and it turns around it can cause some problems can it some real metabolic and physical trauma to the body if you if you start going down this road is that true could you confirm that it's certainly it's certainly can it absolutely can and yesterday I have the really the privilege of being at detrans awareness day where folks with

34:40detransitions came to really unite support one another and share their stories and we heard from a multitude of detransitioners some who are young adults and some who are older and I I recall one of the individuals a lady who spoke about her experience on testosterone and the fact that she had five heart attacks in her 50s really and you know you're just certain again that's one person that's the anecdote but but nonetheless it shows that wow if you're taking a male hormone testosterone you're going to start ending up with what is typically associated with a male this increased cardiovascular risk and the like so it is yeah these these medicines don't come without risk by any means and they have significant consequences and these stories are absolutely heart-wrenching it when when you hear what detransitioners have been through especially at the hands of the medical community and so it is it is definitely true that these cross six hormones we've done some reporting on it as well just in looking at what that the data shows in terms of the the negative impacts of hormones when when boys are taking estrogen or girls are taking testosterone

35:43I'm kind of curious Dr. Micelli are there been any long-term studies of the actual surgical methods that have been put on children you know the mutilations the making the making of artificial female sex organs and trying to keep those things working or you know artificial male sex organs and things has there been any long-term study because I know that Oregon Health and Sciences University has a section there in which all they do is sit around there and come up with ways to to make a transgender organ replacements of sorts and what do you know about this there there are significant significant side effects that individuals experience especially with general surgeries any these are procedures where unfortunately folks end up with significant wound complications and with urinary complications sometimes people end up having to catheter themselves for the rest of their life as a result of complications that result they're extraordinarily difficult surgeries and and then again they can cause significant harm to folks especially

36:46in the long run but but even in the short run just the the impact that it has as you might imagine when you when you look at the lower anatomy and having all of the the different body parts that are there it is it is not it is it is not easy surgery by any means and does result almost inevitably in some degree of of complication and and so so it is it is troubling especially troubling for for young children and and even even breast surgery mastectomy I you know you can speak to a woman who've gone through cancer and and actually have needed to have such surgeries because of the cancer and they speak of the difficulties that mastectomy leads to and certainly when we have young young woman who are going through this and then perhaps five 10 20 years later want to start a family and find out that they can't breastfeed their child because oh yeah not able to it is it is horrifying and and so there are significant consequences and and I suppose it's it's encouraging to see the American Society of Plastic Surgeons who are oftentimes the

37:48the surgical specialist who do these procedures to come out with a statement last month saying that hey you know what we shouldn't be doing these procedures in kids this is this is not evidence based this is causing more harm and and so it's it's good to have a society and medical society finally speak out against these just these horrors in kids that we've been performing and and to really aim to to change the the tone and and to help focus on what we really do need for these children and and that's provide good quality therapy psychotherapy psychosocial support and that's what we see recommended in England well it wasn't used to be considered a phase right that some some people some kids would have this and it was a phase and it was something that they worked through right and then that's absolutely true and in fact watchful waiting in that sense is perhaps more effective and far more effective than what we're doing when we medicalize folks and again you know listening to the detransitioners and even speaking with some of my colleagues I've heard this described as hotel California where you can go in but you can't get out and so

38:50you know part of the struggle that one has when one takes on a new identity even trying to detransition if they want to and just recognizing that wow I've made great mistakes I have terrible regret how do I go back it can be extraordinarily difficult for folks and and so that's why it's even more important that we approach this at all angles we support those detransitioners who are going through a process of returning to their biological sex and embracing it and we also want to make sure for folks who are having these struggles who are having gender dysphoria that we can treat them with much safer means as opposed to the medicalization of illness. Yeah I would agree with you all heartedly on this but I am I know this is going to sound rather cynical of me but unfortunately my cynicism sometimes gets rewarded when it comes to such matters are the plastic surgeons backing away from transitioning children because they really think it's wrong or is it finally the trial lawyers have just been having their way with them and people are getting sued out of existence I'm just kind of wondering what really drives that you think. You know I certainly the the malpractice

39:54cases perhaps will will will be the the final straw and we did see that victory of Fox Varian in New York a $2 million verdict for for you know here a girl who was unfortunately treated in such a terrible way with these procedures and such actually it was her psychologist ended up getting the the bulk of the the impact of the verdict as opposed to the plastic surgeon and that was partly because of really the psychologist leading her unfortunately into this this path but I so I certainly think that the malpractice piece will be a significant part and and will be a big part of stopping these procedures but it's extraordinarily hard for an individual you you know if that imagine that has been through this trauma to then aim to to sue and to relive the trauma can be extraordinarily difficult and and again my hats off to the detransitioners who have the courage to to do that because I know it's it's certainly not easy and and oftentimes we struggle with just some of the limitations of justice in terms of the statute of limitations

40:56and there's a real need for legal reform to allow detransitioners to have that ability to to suit providers who've really hurt them as kids when they had no ability to consent to any such procedures and so that's definitely a piece of it but I also think that you know the American Society of Plastic Surgeons even before the position statement that they released in February even some months before had perhaps been the only medical society within the United States that was open to recognizing that maybe the evidence wasn't quite there oh and and and so it was well what made them different do you think what made the plastic surgeons different from all the other people within the medical transgender complex that seem to be all in on this what what was different about them I think one of the significant factors is they're often seeing these children or young adults when when they're at the point of when they're at the point of having taken the hormones and and they're the ones who are performing the surgeries and so they might be at a point of witnessing more of the harm and the damage that has actually occurred to these individuals as

42:01opposed to perhaps the psychologists to who might be just the on the initiation part of the of the spectrum on the on the yeah yeah so so the psych the psychologist just sends the patient off and just says hey you need to transition boom off you go the parents take the kids to the to the to the surgeon and the gender clinic and then the psychologist doesn't see it again right figures problem solved right it's kind of well and unfortunately we've seen that in many cases where these cursory evaluations are done and in other cases the psychologists may continue to follow them along the way but but in either case the key is in the therapy being good quality therapy not this affirmation therapy that just allows folks into this pathway but you know getting back to the medical associations unfortunately so many of them have been captured by by means of ideologues whether from w pathway the world professional association on transgender health which produces a standard of care that moves into this medicalization surgical interventions and

43:02unfortunately those members have been very active in medical societies and it's so important for ordinary docs to be participating in their medical society and to make sure that they're getting involved and on these committees because frankly we're breaking the trust in medicine when medical societies are proving of these things that the public knows are just not right especially again in the case of children so I think there's really an onus on physicians to to in some sense take back their medical societies to bring them back to scientific basis evidence-based reality and I think the plastic surgeons have have pushed against some of that ideological capture that unfortunately has been running throughout medical societies in the United States well I'm glad to hear this now Trump administration has been working really hard to take steps to protect children from these irreversible sex change interventions you know that kind of thing but when it comes to the online sex hormone marketing that you were talking about earlier is that something which can be attacked

44:03at the state or worked out at the state level whereas this more of a federal kind of deal what would you think is needed it could really come from both angles I mean certainly there's the food and drug administration and would certainly hurt the food and drug administration to further investigate these online pharmacies and they've done this for other drugs and such when they're unapproved drugs they're on the market and the like and so you know we see that there's potentially a pathway there that the FDA could pursue with Department of Justice but on the state side as well when states have laws on the books that specifically say that children can't have cross-sex hormones and puberty blockers and such that law needs to be made sure that it applies to all of the pharmacies and such and so you know there might be additional adjustments that maybe need to be made to some of these laws that are passed and make sure that online pharmacies are included but at the same time it's often true that pharmacies need to be licensed within the state in order to distribute their product and such so their their avenues that are on the state level the federal level that can look to tackle this problem and and certainly it may come to the point where Congress needs to do

45:08hearings and investigations and learn okay are there are there gaps here that we need to fill in with new legislation again to make sure we're keeping kids safe from this online marketplace you know the Oregon state legislature recently passed a law in the last session here that essentially has turned us into a sex a sex change trafficking kind of state and it has removed liability or you know in other words if out of state child is trafficked into the United States for this that that there's no requirement that that doctors or hospitals here pay attention to the state where the kid came from as an example is that's something you think is going to have to be looked at from from the federal government something that is going to have to be cracked down upon. It's certainly something that needs to be looked at and it's it's unfortunately not just Oregon we've seen similar examples in Colorado and and other states and and these sort of trans pipelines that that are being built and it's it's truly truly unfortunate and there's there's so much work that needs to be done in multiple venues whether it is in that pipeline whether it is in these online

46:13spaces there are unfortunately as as we see these gender clinics close and in many states these we see other things popping up in other ways and so it is just so critical and and I think that's why it also is so important for medical societies to to do what is right as physicians as providers because we need to speak with the appropriate authority and to recognize the the evidence to continue to to move the the needle in a direction towards science and safety for kids and I think if we do more of that then perhaps folks will say well wait a second that this is not what the medical community is saying either and and that perhaps will will help significantly and I think unfortunately there's still a lot of change that needs to happen within medicine in order to to come to the reality that everyone understands that these these medications these surgeries are harmful to kids and that we we need to to look to the evidence we need to provide the quality therapy the quality care to to help kids through this process and even looking at watchful waiting and

47:17just yeah allowing kids to sort of progress through puberty but with that support allow them to to feel comfortable with their biologic reality and and to really have more resilience and tolerance for these emotional swings and to make sure that we're treating any underlying mental illness that they might struggle with if it's depression or anxiety so I think as the medical community embraces a a new conversation enough the conversation that's been dominated by by activists I think that will help to change things considerably as well but certainly the work of the government has been very instrumental in them and at least well opening up the door to to to moving that needle as you were talking about it's very good. Absolutely. I really appreciate that. I will share your report on online on my website also linked to this too. The lack of barriers to minors ordering cross sex hormones online. It's from Dr. Kurt Maselli and of course he is with a do know harm do know harm medicine.org will have you back doctor. I appreciate the talk. Be well. Thanks. Absolutely. Thanks

48:19Shea before seven this is K-M-E-D K-M-E-D-H-D-One Eagle appointment or K-B-X-G grants pass. I know that hiring can be